Rosenthal with the latest on Halladay and the Rangers
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 31, 2009 12:57 AM CDT
Email
PrintThe latest from Ken Rosenthal:
The Blue Jays have not lowered their price in trade discussions with the Rangers concerning ace right-hander Roy Halladay.
The Jays still want left-hander Derek Holland, first baseman Justin Smoak and two other prospects, according to major-league sources.
So, there you go.
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i could see us doing a deal with Feliz+Smoak possibly with a couple lower level pitchers but no borbon
and maybe a catcher in there as well… i could maybe swallow that.
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
yea, i know, but i guess id just be so excited about actually having Roy Halladay that the gulp would be alot easier for me
i mean, that could backfire on us very heavily if Feliz pans out as a SP. Im pretty sure Smoak is almost a lock to be a good player. But the truth is, we can fill the holes left by those guys.
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
Frankly
He is the best of the four when all is said and done. What I mean is he has the most precious “talent” of the four. Why would anyone give up a kid that hits 103 on the radar with control.
Please leave the fab four alone
Your 2009 Snow Monkey Ambassador
Even if
the two other prospects are Nate Gold and Emerson Frostad, I’m still not interested.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
by DJCahill on Jul 31, 2009 1:06 AM CDT reply actions 5 recs
what about Jason Botts and Ramon Nivar
by blueballlefty on Jul 31, 2009 1:09 AM CDT up reply actions
Still not interested
J.P. can take Roy Halladay and shove him up his ass. I’ll take Derek Holland. - AJM
with what the phillies gave up for lee
is there a comp in prospects for the rangers…not the way they rank in the phillies system, but ceiling wise?
they didnt give up anyone as good as Smoak and Feliz
thats really the key there. Id say it’d be close to a Font=Knapp almost+Kiker=Carrasco+MaxRam=Marson eh, maybe+Lemon and Arias to almost equal donald+ A little more value to even it out.
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
Fuck Roy Halladay.
Get me Nick Johnson, and we’ll roll with the rotation we’ve got.
J.P. can take Roy Halladay and shove him up his ass. I’ll take Derek Holland. - AJM
agreed.
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jul 31, 2009 1:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Here's a question
when is the last time two top 10-12 prospects were dealt in the same deal? How often has that happened, especially for a 1.3 year player?
And I mean ranked that high when they were dealt
not a year later
by Brett Perryman on Jul 31, 2009 1:19 AM CDT up reply actions
yea, good point
top prospects of that ilk are so, so valueable. Its hard to even put a figure on it in todays game.
I know Beyond the Boxscores or Fangraphs or somebody came up with a number like each top 50 prospect is worth like 15 million dollars in value alone.
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
How long did MCab have left on his deal?
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Everyone needs to drive a vehicle, even the very tall. This was the largest auto I could afford. Should I therefore be made the subject of fun?
by thedirkatron on Jul 31, 2009 3:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Two things
One, those guys weren’t ranked there when that deal was done. Miller was ranked highly in 2007. The offseason in which that deal was done, Miller was not a prospect. Two, he had two full years of control left and signed an extension before he even hit his sixth year. We all knew that that was likely in that deal, and we all know that Halladay will not do that.
by Brett Perryman on Jul 31, 2009 3:45 AM CDT up reply actions
why do you say Halladay WILL not do that
by blueballlefty on Jul 31, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Cabrera
was traded before the 2008 season and would have been a free agent after 2009, I believe.
But then again, that was for Cabrera and Willis, and Cabrera was almost immediately extended.
by Stephen Rushin on Jul 31, 2009 3:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Ah, Willis.
When that deal went down I remember thinking he was a toxic asset in that deal, but then Detroit turned around and extended him. That a WTF moment.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Everyone needs to drive a vehicle, even the very tall. This was the largest auto I could afford. Should I therefore be made the subject of fun?
by thedirkatron on Jul 31, 2009 3:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah
Reading that on second thought, that is probably too low. Maybe another player (Kiker or something) as well.
by Stephen Rushin on Jul 31, 2009 4:07 AM CDT up reply actions
I may be being a homer
Do any of the other rumored offers come anywhere close to matching 2 of our top 4?
I mean that deal that we read about from the Angels wasn’’t even in the same zip code.
"You can probably stick a fork in the Rangers' playoff chances for 2009." - AJM on 7/26 with the team 4.5 games out
I suppose that depends on what you believe the Sox offered, if they indeed offered anything.
Buccholz + Anderson or Bowden + Lower level guy(s) could be comparable, depending on who that lower level guy or guys ended up being.
You’re probably right that no one has offered anything comparable to what we’ve been asked, but then again I don’t think we’ve offered what we’ve been asked for, either, or it’d be done.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Everyone needs to drive a vehicle, even the very tall. This was the largest auto I could afford. Should I therefore be made the subject of fun?
by thedirkatron on Jul 31, 2009 7:56 AM CDT up reply actions
another way of looking at it
I think Martin Perez is probably comparable in value to Drabek, and Smoak, Holland, and Feliz are more valuable. The Phils walked away because they wouldn’t deal Drabek, but the BJ’s are apparently asking us for 2 prospects with more value.
Just walk away JD.
"You can probably stick a fork in the Rangers' playoff chances for 2009." - AJM on 7/26 with the team 4.5 games out
Thats what Ive been thinking
what they are asking from the rangers is WAY more than what they have reportedly asked from other teams.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
which we can expect
our system is that good.. embarrasment of riches
No, they're really not.
I don’t know why people keep saying this when it’s ridiculously NOT true.
What they asked for from Philly is VERY comparable to what they asked for from us.
Philly turned them down.
My guess is they asked Boston for the same basic amount of talent back as well, and that they also balked.
Will we be smart enough to do the same?
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Everyone needs to drive a vehicle, even the very tall. This was the largest auto I could afford. Should I therefore be made the subject of fun?
by thedirkatron on Jul 31, 2009 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions
was brown in the philly offer?
if so then yeah i guess its comparable, i couldnt remember if he was or wasnt.
i like drabek but i dont think hes as high as feliz or holland right now
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
Yes, they wanted Drabek, Brown and Happ from Philly.
Like I said below, I think our dudes are a bit better, but it’s in the same basic neighborhood.
Depending on the eye of the beholder the packages are pretty darn close, actually.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Everyone needs to drive a vehicle, even the very tall. This was the largest auto I could afford. Should I therefore be made the subject of fun?
by thedirkatron on Jul 31, 2009 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions
how do you figure?
Holland and Feliz are both ranked considerably higher than Drabek, and Smoak is a whole tier above Brown and Taylor.
"You can probably stick a fork in the Rangers' playoff chances for 2009." - AJM on 7/26 with the team 4.5 games out
I like our guys better, too. That's not the point. The point is that it's comporable.
It’s not they’re like their asking the sun from us and a lava lamp from everyone else.
And it’s worth noting that the third guy in the demand from Philly was Happ, a cheap controllable LAIE-ish pitcher already producing at the big league level, which has more value than the Bevan/Kiker types I’m assuming we would be asked for if we willing to include Fleas/Holland and Smoak.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Everyone needs to drive a vehicle, even the very tall. This was the largest auto I could afford. Should I therefore be made the subject of fun?
by thedirkatron on Jul 31, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions
I've been trying to figure the same thing.
To me, this is the best thing to point to for only giving up one of the top 4. While Arizona sent a lot of prospects to Oakland, they were getting more years. And even then, they weren’t giving up 2 of the top 12 prospects in the league.
I would be ok with a package centered around Feliz, not because I don’t think he’ll be a good player at MLB, but because he is the farthest away it seems from being above average at his position compared to Holland and Smoak (assuming he’s a starter).
by GhettoBear04 on Jul 31, 2009 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions
May i ask why the fox poll.
Has “yes there the only ones left”
and “no thanks for the laughs”
fuck them.
I'm just goofin' new boot goofin'
JP can lick my taint
I wouldn’t like it but I’d allow it provided he threw in a middling prospect.
Remember Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.
Feliz
I have a feeling that he will turn in to a Mariano Rivera type closer not a starter. If he comes close to that we will be kicking ourselves for the next 15 years.
I don't see why
everything I’ve seen about the guy indicates top notch starter. And until he fails at that for a year or two, that’s how I’ll continue to see it.
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jul 31, 2009 1:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Wait
So if Feliz becomes a Mariano Rivera type of closer, it will be a disappointment? I mean, yeah he won’t be the front of the line starter we all hoped he would be….
But I would love to have someone compared to the most dominate closer this decade closing for this team for the next 15 years
Bill Simmons: "I will tell you right now, if the Boston Red Sox traded Clay Buchholz for Justin Smoak, I will run around my neighborhood naked...celebrating for an hour. I love Justin Smoak"
I think the point was that if the Rangers deal the next Mariano Rivera
as part of a package for 1.5 years of Halladay, we’ll all be unhappy Rangers fans…
Your 2009 Texas Rangers: "Can't take a fucking to save their lives" (lisa w, 2009).
Ahh...
Thats what I thought he was saying, but I really wasn’t sure
Damn, lack of sleep really affecting me….
Bill Simmons: "I will tell you right now, if the Boston Red Sox traded Clay Buchholz for Justin Smoak, I will run around my neighborhood naked...celebrating for an hour. I love Justin Smoak"
I agree
He was compared to Mariano by baseball america 2 years ago.
by Monkey Brain on Jul 31, 2009 2:14 AM CDT up reply actions
This is the kind of deal
that makes me want to give up on caring about the Rangers. Just when it looked like they had it right…
Don't go
Hindman on us just yet.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
I am seriously going to go all melodramatic MJH style if they do this
Every (local) indication seems to be that Texas is dying to give Feliz and Smoak, but Ricciardi is just trying to corkscrew their nuts just a little harder (Hunter added in or Holland in place of Feliz or whatever). I have a feeling that my little blogging stint at dmn is going to come to an end in the next week after I flame out tomorrow afternoon.
by Brett Perryman on Jul 31, 2009 1:33 AM CDT up reply actions 11 recs
Rec
If this does happen and you do indeed flame out BP, can you please take JD and Nolan with you?
Thanks.
by behindthebag on Jul 31, 2009 1:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Seriously though
I’m starting to get the same feeling as you. The more time passes by, the more likely it seems as though not only are they wiling to give up Feliz and Smoak, but they’re willing to add Borbon/Hunter/Beaven just so Toronto can pick up some of the tab this year.
If this does go down, I’m going to join you in the rampage.
by behindthebag on Jul 31, 2009 1:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Brett
do you really think that JD is this stupid? I just find this difficult to believe that we are really considering doing this
Maybe JD
is starting to feel pressure to win now from an Owner that needs the cash flow.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
For no solid reason whatsoever, I'm also concerned about pressure from Ryan,
at least in regard to the potential for a Halladay deal.
Your 2009 Texas Rangers: "Can't take a fucking to save their lives" (lisa w, 2009).
+1
He was complaining we didn’t make a deal last year when we where what, 6-7 games out (?) – I can only imagine how much he’d like to make one this year when we actually are competing.
J.P. can take Roy Halladay and shove him up his ass. I’ll take Derek Holland. - AJM
And here they're talking about an ace.
Right up Ryan’s alley.
Again, though, there’s no real evidence that this is in fact the case…
Your 2009 Texas Rangers: "Can't take a fucking to save their lives" (lisa w, 2009).
yea, i mean, its not really Nolan's fault, he wants to win
but thats also why we need to have a strong JD who knows whats best longterm.
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
Everybody wants to win.
I have faith that the relationship Ryan and Daniels have established will allow the latter to stick with The Plan. Without that faith, I’d have trouble being a Rangers fan at this point…
Your 2009 Texas Rangers: "Can't take a fucking to save their lives" (lisa w, 2009).
well, i wont listen...
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
I agree
completely
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 31, 2009 7:41 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't know that I could go as far
as not caring about the Rangers, but I completely agree with you on the stupidity of a deal containing two of Holland, Feliz, Smoak, and Perez. Halladay or Santana or whoever isn’t worth two of those guys plus two more. You can’t do that deal. Just because we have it doesn’t mean we have to spend it. Especially when the return on our investment is very likely less than the return on what we give up. Halladay signing here… yeah right… waiving his no trade, perhaps, but we’d have him for 1.3 years at most.
My deal for Halladay… Smoak/Feliz, Font/Boscan/Ross/Kiker, Arias/Vallejo, Teagarden/MRam
So the Marlins have offered Ryan Tucker and cash for Nick Johnson
What would that equal for us, maybe Blake Beavan and a lower guy instead of the cash?
Pull your head out of Riccardi’s ass JD…
J.P. can take Roy Halladay and shove him up his ass. I’ll take Derek Holland. - AJM
Oh, forgot the linkage
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/07/marlins-making-push-for-nick-johnson.html
J.P. can take Roy Halladay and shove him up his ass. I’ll take Derek Holland. - AJM
Ryan Tucker for Nick Johnson and cash...
Marlins want the Nats to pick up the tab…
Oops.
Read it wrong.
One player for Nick fucking Johnson? Where the fuck is JD?
J.P. can take Roy Halladay and shove him up his ass. I’ll take Derek Holland. - AJM
eh, er, i dont know if Nick Johnson is very valueable at all
id love to have him, but i dont know if he’s honestly worth BB.
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
think about it though, i mean, in a pure value sense, no he's not
NJ would do good things for us and he’d help us out, but he’s not all that better than a Blalock or Jones for half a season on a 3-4 million dollar remaining contract to warrant trading a good SP prospect who could be worth 20 million + in value long term if he pans out just as a LAIE which he has a pretty good shot of doing so… What does NJ add to us in terms of monetary value the rest of the season? Maybe 2-3 million dollars in win values, i might even be generous as that doesnt really take into account how much we’re paying him + the level of production he’d be replacing.
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
Thing is
We’ve got other guys in the minors who can be LAIE’s. Tommy Hunter and Beavan are reputedly the same pitcher these days – why do we need both? That’s called depth, and we’ve got it when it comes to B and C guys.
J.P. can take Roy Halladay and shove him up his ass. I’ll take Derek Holland. - AJM
yea, i know, it wouldnt really hurt us, like at all
but just in terms of pure value, BB is more valueable than a little bit of Nick Johnson. But saying that, we can do a deal like and not even blink an eye cuz we do have 5 other guys to lean on to fill out the spot he left.
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
in the end though
i like the thought of Nick Johnson on our offense, alot. We need someone like him bad. So if we dealt BB away for him, Id be happy just b.c it would be appeasement now. So yea
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
We should all throw water ballons filled with
urine at JD and Nolan if this trade goes down.
by behindthebag on Jul 31, 2009 1:27 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
I thought you meant
JD.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
Not at all...
JD is in good standing, and rightfully so…
Though that could change if he blows this with another awful trade…
I don't think the return on this trade would look anything like past "blown trades"
Halladay will NOT disappoint. The rest of the team might…the offense, some of our young pitchers, or just the Angels’ continued dominance.
I will say, as I did with the Kidd-Harris trade for the Mavs, that if Halladay came to us and we gave up a ton yet won the World Series or even made it to the ALCS or something like that while he was here, that it was a successful trade…
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jul 31, 2009 1:55 AM CDT up reply actions
True
Its this organizations goal (and everyone elses) to win a World Championship. If Halladay guarantees that, you have to make the trade, even if it hurts your club in the long run
Except, with how our offense is going right now, I just don’t see this team contending for the World Series come November….
Bill Simmons: "I will tell you right now, if the Boston Red Sox traded Clay Buchholz for Justin Smoak, I will run around my neighborhood naked...celebrating for an hour. I love Justin Smoak"
Oh, I don't think it would be that kind of disaster either...
But if we trade Feliz/Smoak for Halladay, don’t make the playoffs or advance in the next two years, and he walks in free agency…?
People’s heads will explode… Imagine the Galloway/JFE/Reeves articles… Ugh.
This deal
simply cannot be made. No way I would give up Holland & Smoak or Feliz & Smoak. Let alone two more prospects. Brett is right, who the hell gives up 2 of the top 10-12 prospects for 1.3 years of a player, even if it is Doc?
by erikj07 on Jul 31, 2009 1:40 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Over at BBTiA earlier today (Thursday?)
I wondered aloud if a Feliz or Holland/Borbon/Teagarden/Boscan or Poveda or Kiker package might bring the two sides close enough together, but judging by recent media accounts that configuration now appears rather doubtful.
I don’t know how strong of a play they made for Lee, but if this ultimately goes down in the form some are suggesting it will I think a lot of people will be wishing Texas had gone harder after Lee.
by Joey Matschulat on Jul 31, 2009 1:45 AM CDT reply actions
I read the article earlier
and commented that I’m not comfortable with dealing any two of the big four together. Plus I feel like Borbon is tough to give up, although not untouchable. Do you think the Rangers are seriously considering giving up Feliz/Holland and Smoak? Its hard for me to see JD doing this
yep
the interesting question for me after the trade season was what was the Rangers offer for Lee, and whether they pursued him hard enough.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
what would have been our comparable trade for Lee
to what Cleveland got?
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jul 31, 2009 1:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Something close to Font/Teagarden/Lemon/Moscoso/Madrigal, maybe
Obviously if you go with one of the Big Four at the top then you can likely downgrade the rest of the package a little and probably still best Philly’s offer … then again, maybe Cleveland just absolutely loved the players that they did get, but it seems feasible that Texas could have swung a deal without including any of the Big Four.
by Joey Matschulat on Jul 31, 2009 2:26 AM CDT up reply actions
i would have
but thats just me. Id do a deal to get a TORG with his type of contract for a package of combining almost anybody outside our top 4 guys.
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
My opinion
everyone thinks our prospects are better…always
what if they said we have to include Perez to match knapp?…
i think people presume too much around here
Thats a deal I would have loved to make
Cept I would have trouble trading Font away. He really is growing on me and it sounds like this season (mostly of late) he is getting a feel on how to pitch (instead of just blowing away guys)
Hearing as well that he could take a Feliz path here in the next couple of years just makes me sick to part with him…….but for Lee, I would have done it
Bill Simmons: "I will tell you right now, if the Boston Red Sox traded Clay Buchholz for Justin Smoak, I will run around my neighborhood naked...celebrating for an hour. I love Justin Smoak"
Hmmm
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9874980/There%27s-no-denying-how-bad-Texas-needs-Halladay
Kind of strange.
I'm just goofin' new boot goofin'
That's probably one of the worst articles
with some of the worst reasoning I’ve read in quite some time. Seems like the dude just visited texasrangers.com, did a little bit of research on JD and Nolan, then put together that nonsense.
Trade for Doc because we’ve only won 1 playoff game and need an identity? Makes perfect sense!!!!
by behindthebag on Jul 31, 2009 1:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Random thought
if we can’t afford Doc’s remaining salary for this season and thus have to put even more talent in the trade, how the hell are we going to sign Scheppers and Purke?
It's called the Selig Stimulus Package
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jul 31, 2009 1:59 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
As a Jays fan...
I’m kind of shocked at how reluctant you guys are to make this trade. I understand not wanting to deal two of Smoak/Holland/Feliz but there has been at least one person say they wouldn’t even give up ONE of those? Aren’t you guys in the heat of a playoff race?
Your minor league system is easily strong enough to be good even if this trade goes through…and with Boston currently going down the shitter its not a bad time to add arguably the best starter in baseball.
I kind of agree with you...sorta a little.
I just can’t speak too loud in fear i’d get hit over the head with some heavy object.
I'm just goofin' new boot goofin'
If it were only one of Holland, Smoak, *or* Feliz, packaged with lesser prospects
I don’t think you’d be hearing as many protests.
That’s not what’s coming through the media grapevine, though…
Your 2009 Texas Rangers: "Can't take a fucking to save their lives" (lisa w, 2009).
I'd love to have Roy here
and he certainly is worth whatever prospects we’d give up at this point…but you have to understand we’ve been burned by some trades in the past, and that counts for something; and pitching hasn’t been our biggest problem this year, for once…it’s been the hitting. Even though recently our staff has taken several hits. It’s just that our prospects and money that could be spent better elsewhere. And our prospects are key to the future.
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jul 31, 2009 2:01 AM CDT up reply actions
You're right
I don’t want to deal Holland out of the big four. The problem is that reportedly Ricciardi wants Holland AND Smoak plus two more prospects. That is literally insane. Feliz or Smoak or Perez I can handle, but you can’t deal two of these four guys for 1.3 years of Doc when his presence won’t even guarantee a playoff birth. The future is too bright to mortgage for this year and the next
by erikj07 on Jul 31, 2009 2:01 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
In a nutshell, this.
J.P. can take Roy Halladay and shove him up his ass. I’ll take Derek Holland. - AJM
i dont think most of us would have a problem dealing one of our top 4 guys (Throw Martin Perez in there, if JP had any sense he'd go after that guy IMO)
Id almost, almost be ok with two of them if we gave up little on the back end of the deal…
If you arent willing to give up one of the top guys, I agree, there shouldnt be a deal made.
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
I'm only reluctant because Ricciardi wants so much.
Our #6-#8 guys can easily be #1 prospects in at least 10 organizations right now.
But you guys want our damn #1-4.
Pick 1 out of our top 4,than go through the rest of the system and pick.
by TooLegitToQuit on Jul 31, 2009 2:12 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Which systems do you think Borbon and Font could head up?
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Everyone needs to drive a vehicle, even the very tall. This was the largest auto I could afford. Should I therefore be made the subject of fun?
by thedirkatron on Jul 31, 2009 3:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Maybe Houston
Maybe NYM, LAA, Stl….
JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook
The problem is
That we have heard for the past couple of years that the only way for this team to be successful is to build within. JD has rebuilt our minor league system into one that is one of the strongest in the league right now and has told fans to be patient and let our minor league system run its course, meaning give them time
Now all of a sudden we going to want to package these prospects whom we have heard are going to help turn around this franchise for an Ace Pitcher that we would only control for 1.5 years. I mean, yeah that sounds great, but really, are we that close to a World Series win?
No, we are not. There are still many holes on this team. Our offense, which is suppose to be a juggernaut suddenly can’t make contact with the ball. So how are we going to fix this? By trading positional prospects that can help our team maybe this year for a pitcher….
All of us have read before the season that 2009 really wasn’t the year to contend just yet. That would be in 2010 and beyond. Yet we want to blow that all up just to get a pitcher that probably won’t put us over the top this year and either could get traded next year or walk in free agency next year
Besides, some of us are tired of hearing our old prospect doing well on other teams. Why continue that trend…..
Bill Simmons: "I will tell you right now, if the Boston Red Sox traded Clay Buchholz for Justin Smoak, I will run around my neighborhood naked...celebrating for an hour. I love Justin Smoak"
thanks for stopping by too, You might get more than you came for though as we are very hot and bothered over all this talk
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
I don't blame you, from a Jays perspective
Can you name the last time that two of the top ten prospects in baseball (along with other top talents) were traded for a player who would only be around for 1.3 years? I can’t.
And what your view as a fan of the team trying to salvage something for such a great player will lack (and again, I certainly don’t blame you for it) is that these aren’t just two prospects pulled out of the hat of a deep farm system. These are two of the handful (five or six?) key players in this organization, who will otherwise be here for 7+ years.
by Brett Perryman on Jul 31, 2009 2:49 AM CDT up reply actions
And thats exactly it!
you DON’T see 2 prospects ranked that high included in a deal. It just doesnt happen, and if it was going to the player coming back would need to be under control for much longer.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
Two words. A Rod
Were we excited when we got him?! Fuck ya.
But we learned that when you bid against yourself and offer WAY more than any other team does, there are consequences.
IMO, jd shouldn’t worry about obtaining halladay, but just making sure he has the best deal on the table.
Feliz PLUS Smoak is outbidding other teams by $50M.
by BuckyB on Jul 31, 2009 9:55 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Honestly, when the deadline hits tomorrow
For one thing, I’ll be a happy man (no more trade talk) but I do believe JP will give in and lower the price to get Halladay
Instead of demanding Smoak, Feliz or Holland, Borbon, and another minor league, he’ll only demand one of Smoak, Feliz or Holland along with a bunch of other high end prospects (such as Font)
Why? To really save his job. JP has really screwed this deadline up. He has had a month to find a partner to trade with and everything has blown up in his face. Philly looked to be the best trading partner, but in the end they said screw it and got someone as good as Halladay
JP I think will fold under the pressure and accept a deal that isn’t up to what many were thinking he would get but still something solid
Bill Simmons: "I will tell you right now, if the Boston Red Sox traded Clay Buchholz for Justin Smoak, I will run around my neighborhood naked...celebrating for an hour. I love Justin Smoak"
Lee's not as good as Halladay.
Your 2009 Texas Rangers: "Can't take a fucking to save their lives" (lisa w, 2009).
Just typing the same.
J.P. can take Roy Halladay and shove him up his ass. I’ll take Derek Holland. - AJM
True....
But Lee seems like a great fit in the NL and the Phils got him for almost half the price they would have paid for Halladay
Bill Simmons: "I will tell you right now, if the Boston Red Sox traded Clay Buchholz for Justin Smoak, I will run around my neighborhood naked...celebrating for an hour. I love Justin Smoak"
It certainly seems like a good deal for the Phillies, and Lee, too, for that matter.
But I’ve watched Roy Halladay, Lee, sir, is no Roy Halladay.
Your 2009 Texas Rangers: "Can't take a fucking to save their lives" (lisa w, 2009).
i bet the times you've watched Lee where against the Rangers and Lee has been horrible against us
if you look at Lee’s #‘s, he’s almost as good as Roy, not as good, but close enough to where its very little in terms of WAR over the rest of the season
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
Sorry, but all of these observations are wrong.
I’ve watched both Lee and Halladay pitch apart from their starts against Texas, and Lee’s numbers aren’t almost as good as Halladay’s.
Your 2009 Texas Rangers: "Can't take a fucking to save their lives" (lisa w, 2009).
K\
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
I'm not trying to say Lee is better than Halladay
Halladay might be the best pitcher in the game right now. To get him, the Phillies would have had to pay a kings ransom to get him, and they didn’t want to give up many of their guys
So they decided to go get the second best pitcher on the market (Lee) and get him for half the price that would have cost them for Halladay. I mean, they kept basically their top prospect and still got Lee, who is a damn good pitcher but not as good as Halladay
This is the NL we are talking about. Lee is in heaven going over there to pitch. I’m sure I would love to pitch against the Nats about 3-4 times a year….
Bill Simmons: "I will tell you right now, if the Boston Red Sox traded Clay Buchholz for Justin Smoak, I will run around my neighborhood naked...celebrating for an hour. I love Justin Smoak"
I understand.
You said Lee was someone as good as Halladay, and I disagreed. Now it sounds as if we actually agree, because you don’t think Lee’s someone as good as Halladay ~ you just like the price Philadelphia paid for the former. Me, too.
Your 2009 Texas Rangers: "Can't take a fucking to save their lives" (lisa w, 2009).
Halladay is in the elite group of pitchers in Baseball
Along with Santana, Lincecum, Haren, Webb (when he’s not injured), and maybe a couple others
Lee is in the next tier, along with Lester, Kershaw, Billingsley, and others…
Bill Simmons: "I will tell you right now, if the Boston Red Sox traded Clay Buchholz for Justin Smoak, I will run around my neighborhood naked...celebrating for an hour. I love Justin Smoak"
i was just looking at the Dbacks and with Haren+Scherzer+Webb
+ Upton+ Richardson(whatever their 3B name that hits so many HRs)+ Stephen Drew you’d think they could build a much better team around that. Instead they run out guys like Chad Tracy and Chris Young as everyday players around that really amazing core of player. Having Haren + Scherzer alone at the top of a rotation is damn good.
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
Chris Young is our Chris Davis
He has so much potential, yet nothing has fallen through for him this year…
Bill Simmons: "I will tell you right now, if the Boston Red Sox traded Clay Buchholz for Justin Smoak, I will run around my neighborhood naked...celebrating for an hour. I love Justin Smoak"
wasn't Young
the centerpiece of the deal with the Chi Sox for what pitcher? cant think of it… Vazquez?
I feel like the Rangers' only hope of saving them from theirselves if if
Ricciardi does hold strong and doesn’t cave, but his behavior this week has clearly indicated that he will fold and take the best offer unless it’s a miserable one.
by Brett Perryman on Jul 31, 2009 2:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Any chance that Theo saves our ass
by offering a deal that Riccardi will jump on?
"You can probably stick a fork in the Rangers' playoff chances for 2009." - AJM on 7/26 with the team 4.5 games out
damn, im not sleeping tonight
fuck
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
but at least I know JD isnt either
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
someone needs to find his phone number
or better yet find JP’s number and start talking to him like you are the girl from the Ring and tell him he’s got 7 HRs to deal us Halladay for Neil Ramirez.
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
7 home runs?
"He struck him out swinging! Hello no-hitter number seven!" - Mark Holtz
Well, according to Josey
JD is still in the Batcave (his suite at the Ballpark) talking on the phone and watching minor league games at the same time…
Bill Simmons: "I will tell you right now, if the Boston Red Sox traded Clay Buchholz for Justin Smoak, I will run around my neighborhood naked...celebrating for an hour. I love Justin Smoak"
by Smoak Some on Jul 31, 2009 2:20 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ha, I don't know if I am either
If I don’t though, I dunno how I’m gonna stay awake until 1 o’clock tomorrow keeping an eye on the deadline news.
J.P. can take Roy Halladay and shove him up his ass. I’ll take Derek Holland. - AJM
I just laid in bed for an hour, can't stop thinking about it
I can’t believe more people don’t realize how dumb this trade would be.
by Brett Perryman on Jul 31, 2009 2:52 AM CDT up reply actions
ugh you are
depressing me. I’ve been against this all along, but never really thought that it would go down bc JD is smart. But now i’m having second thoughts the more I read about it. Whats the best offer you would make?
I can't believe
How pessimistically you view Halladay.
by brettgardner on Jul 31, 2009 2:59 AM CDT up reply actions
he doesn't view
Halladay as “pessimistic,” he views giving up two of the best prospects in all of baseball plus some for 1.3 years of him stupid when he won’t even make us favorites in the division race
No
That’s not what I’m talking about.
He doesn’t seem to think Halladay would be a good pitcher here.
by brettgardner on Jul 31, 2009 3:02 AM CDT up reply actions
my bad
i would disagree with that (as would most i would think). Not that i don’t want him, just not for the package it will require
That's a fine reason
And it’s hard to fault anyone for that reasoning.
But throwing up his career line at RBiA as, I guess, proof that he will go from one of the best pitchers in the league to a total spare is not a good reason, to me.
by brettgardner on Jul 31, 2009 3:09 AM CDT up reply actions
Did you not do that?
I’m confused by your confusion.
by brettgardner on Jul 31, 2009 3:33 AM CDT up reply actions
My point was that there is an awful lot riding on a low number of starts, and that people should at least consider the possibility that he doesn’t completely dominate. It was an off-hand comment, not some key part of my issue with the whole thing. If I had to bet, I would guess that he’ll put up an ERA below four in his 13 starts if he comes here.
by Brett Perryman on Jul 31, 2009 3:41 AM CDT up reply actions
you know i agree
i just dont understand how people think this would be smart
truly baffling for me as well
Since we didnt have a MiLB thread today, figured id dump this stuff here:
Smoak 3-5 with a HR: He’s hitting .333 in his last 40 ABs in AAA. Also, it may just be a SSS dilemna, but he’s hitting alot better against LHP through 30 or so ABs. his K rate and BB rates are worse so far in AAA, but they arent that bad. I think he’s figuring it out and should end the year with solid enough numbers in AAA.
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
yea, I think his true power may not come for few years (JMO), but everything else about him screams elite hitter now.
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
Yeah
give me a hitter with patience over one with power. Power tends to come with age. Patience, not so much.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
He and Travis Snider will make a great 1/2 middle of the order punch :)
by Brett Perryman on Jul 31, 2009 2:51 AM CDT up reply actions
we might have to hand you a bottle of Scotch and lock you in a room without any sharp objects or hangers tommorrow
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
Might need to..
..make it a case. Is this what it looks like when someone’s on the edge?
by GhettoBear04 on Jul 31, 2009 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions
here's the continuation of Heyman's twitter post from earlier:
interesting, i wonder if Holland’s immaculate start had anything to do with derailing this. Im starting to think this thing might get done, there is a ton of smoke, we’ll see.
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
Words cannot express the degree to which I do not want us to make this deal.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Everyone needs to drive a vehicle, even the very tall. This was the largest auto I could afford. Should I therefore be made the subject of fun?
I think it happens for a lot less than what is being reported.
and we’re all happy.
I'm just goofin' new boot goofin'
I don't know about a lot
But I feel that it will only be 1 of the 4.
by brettgardner on Jul 31, 2009 3:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Or you know brett we could listen to this guy of a blue jay board. I think he has the right idea
“Here’s what I’m thinking the Rangers can give:
Neftali Feliz, RHP
Elvis Andrus, SS
Derrick Holland, LHP
Justin Smoak, 1B
This may be too much, so maybe the Jays could throw in someone else, maybe Scutaro or someone else?"
I'm just goofin' new boot goofin'
Mmm
Seems like a steal if we manage to get Scutaro.
by brettgardner on Jul 31, 2009 3:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Yah it's 4 guys who could be argued as having top 100 overall trade value in all of baseball.
But if we get a few months of Marco Effing Scutaro… Sign me up, cause I’m about to get all sorts of naked up in this bitch.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Everyone needs to drive a vehicle, even the very tall. This was the largest auto I could afford. Should I therefore be made the subject of fun?
by thedirkatron on Jul 31, 2009 4:03 AM CDT up reply actions
hahahahhahahahahahahahahahhahahaha
that is all
"Elvis Andrus has just preformed a MIRACLE!"
-Eric Nadel, 5/4/09
by Jason Brynsvold on Jul 31, 2009 4:03 AM CDT up reply actions
yea i do to
i dont want to dread the thought of Halladay coming to Texas b/c the possibility of that ever happening a year or two ago was absurd… I mean, I dont want to be sad that we just got the best pitcher in baseball argueably for this year and next.
We wont deal Holland and Smoak, thats just not happening. If we do Feliz+Smoak, I’ll be dissapointed, but i can gulp it down with the hope that it might be worth just b/c we havent seen the playoffs in so damn long. It still doesnt dissapaite the fact that its a bad trade in terms of value if not real bad.
If we do it for Smoak+Font+Kiker+MaxRam+whatever, I’ll actually be pretty happy.
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
God I fucking hope not.
I’m going insane thinking about Der-Hol and Smoak going to Toronto along with us making like Brian Thomas when he wears a Speedo and padding the package, just because we need Toronto to take on some of the contract.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Everyone needs to drive a vehicle, even the very tall. This was the largest auto I could afford. Should I therefore be made the subject of fun?
by thedirkatron on Jul 31, 2009 3:55 AM CDT up reply actions
there is just no way this happens
(holds gun to head)
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
I think it's going to happen. I really do.
And I’m going insane thinking about it.
Feliz or Holland, Smoak, Borbon, Kiker for Halladay and I’ll cry until my penis bleeds.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Everyone needs to drive a vehicle, even the very tall. This was the largest auto I could afford. Should I therefore be made the subject of fun?
by thedirkatron on Jul 31, 2009 4:16 AM CDT up reply actions
That would be a terrible trade
For some reason (unrelated to tonight’s game) I do not want to see Holland traded under any circumstances. Even though I continue to tell myself that JD, Ryan, and co. will have the self restraint to not make a bad move, I don’t think I could stomach any deal involving Holland. I can deal with one of Feliz/Smoak/Perez, and would probably feel comfortable with such a move. I would hate, but deal with Smoak and Feliz. But I could not stand watching Holland pitch for another team. It is borderline irrational, but it would kill me as a fan.
Maybe it is because we have seen Holland so much this year, I don’t know.
by Stephen Rushin on Jul 31, 2009 4:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Here's how I feel at the moment
It’s like I’ve been dating a really cool, beautiful girl for like five years, and I was going to ask her to marry me this weekend. We spent three hours having one of those “we’re going to spend our lives together” type talks from 7-10 tonight. Then around 11 my friend calls me and tells me that he just saw her having sex with Kevin Federline on the hood of her car in an Albertsons parking lot.
by Brett Perryman on Jul 31, 2009 3:55 AM CDT up reply actions 11 recs
What a bizarre analogy
But I guess I get it.
And I feel bad for you now.
by brettgardner on Jul 31, 2009 3:57 AM CDT up reply actions
That actually sounds pretty hot.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Everyone needs to drive a vehicle, even the very tall. This was the largest auto I could afford. Should I therefore be made the subject of fun?
by thedirkatron on Jul 31, 2009 3:57 AM CDT up reply actions
That
After the show I want Greg Oden to tuck us both in and tell us stories about the old days. - Will Ferrell
is exactly how I feel.
I might have to cry a little bit if this deal gets done.
After the show I want Greg Oden to tuck us both in and tell us stories about the old days. - Will Ferrell
So you going to shave you head now
And go beat down Halladay’s car with a umbrella?
Bill Simmons: "I will tell you right now, if the Boston Red Sox traded Clay Buchholz for Justin Smoak, I will run around my neighborhood naked...celebrating for an hour. I love Justin Smoak"
This needs to be posted on the DMN blog
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 31, 2009 7:48 AM CDT up reply actions
I might be in the minority
But I do not think that the reports of two or three of Feliz/Holland/Smoak/Perez for Halladay are realistic. I think people are worried way too much right now about nothing. I honestly trust JD and I do not think he would trade away some huge package like Smoak, Holland, + to get a 1.3 year rental in Halladay.
First, it seems as if so much of the so-called rumors we hear are either completely baseless junk, or conveniently leaked information in an effort to somehow manipulate the trade market. It seems like it would be advantageous for Ricciardi to continue to make high demands in the media, hoping to set the bar as high as reasonably possible.
Second, it also seems like the national media sources are going to be getting their information from Toronto sources, not Texas sources. Texas has no motivation to leak any potential offer. It is to their advantage to be as tight lipped as possible about this situation. The only time I have heard a substantial amount of rumors about
Third, I think Ricciardi has to make a deal. Despite all the ridiculous posturing that the Jays can hold onto Halladay and “make a run at it” next year, that just isn’t realistic. In all likelihood, I do not think they expect to content next season with the Yankees, Red Sox, or Rays. If they fail to deal Halladay, he will lose a lot of value.
With all that said, I can reasonably see JD sending something like Smoak, Borbon, and Font to Toronto for Halladay. But I just do not buy this idea that we are set to send Smoak, Holland/Feliz, and two other prospects to Toronto. If there is any deal at all, I think it will at least be palatable. I’m going to give JD and company the benefit of the doubt, despite Ricciardi’s absurd public demands.
Good points.
But I just can’t see that package getting it done.
by brettgardner on Jul 31, 2009 4:06 AM CDT up reply actions
how bout this, Feliz+ Kiker+ MaxRam+ Poveda+ Lemon+ Moreland
is that close?
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
Yeah
Reading that over, that is probably a too low of an offer… you’d probably have to include another piece. But I think the idea is still pretty much the same.
by Stephen Rushin on Jul 31, 2009 4:09 AM CDT up reply actions
+1, Well said
i think im pretty much in the exact same boat. I do feel like every offer we’ve heard has come from the Blue Jay side of things
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
yea, they'll definitely get Feliz or Holland if this deal gets done IMO
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
Maybe
I was just going off the Evan Grant’s story that said:
“In addition, 1B Justin Smoak and OF Julio Borbon are believed to be part of the Rangers package.”
His wording was a little confusing; I couldn’t tell if he was talking about that being the kind of package Toronto would want, or the kind of package Texas was offering.
by Stephen Rushin on Jul 31, 2009 4:11 AM CDT up reply actions
This trade
Really reminds me of the Jason Kidd deal two seasons ago. The FO paid a huge price to get a veteran star in here. The fans hated it because the return did not match the investment and because the team still fell short of elite status. The team got all grouchy and pouted, insisting that they were still relevant.
Then the got ousted in the first round.
Kanye, you want to be the voice of this generation? Get in line! It goes me, Obamagirl, the Freecreditreport.com guys, then It's a tie between you-and Crocs.
-Stephen Colbert
I might, if all I see when I look at his face is Smoak in a Blue Jay uniform...
J.P. can take Roy Halladay and shove him up his ass. I’ll take Derek Holland. - AJM
2009/2010 Halladay >>>>>> 2008/2009 Kidd
But if you don’t win a ring with him, at the end of the day it’s kinda the same deal
"He struck him out swinging! Hello no-hitter number seven!" - Mark Holtz
x
Really the only thing that’s similar is that they would both involve trading younger players for a big time vet.
by brettgardner on Jul 31, 2009 5:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Indeed.
Even if we did the horribleness of what the Jays want for Doc, we’d still be a young team on the upswing.
Where we are now and where the Mavs were then is very different, imo.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Everyone needs to drive a vehicle, even the very tall. This was the largest auto I could afford. Should I therefore be made the subject of fun?
by thedirkatron on Jul 31, 2009 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Not even close to me
Devin Harris/Two first round picks <<<<<<< the just 1 of the top four in our system
After the show I want Greg Oden to tuck us both in and tell us stories about the old days. - Will Ferrell
I can only listen to Mike Greenberg for a nano-second before wanting to drive off of the road...
his condescension is unmatched….he’s a bloviating fool.
"I'll explain, and I'll be sure to use small words so that you'll be sure to understand. You wart-hog-faced-buffoon!"
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Jul 31, 2009 7:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Duh
Didn’t you know? Waiving a no-trade clause takes half a day MINIMUM.
by brettgardner on Jul 31, 2009 5:42 AM CDT up reply actions
that is complete propaganda
Did Riccardi write this?
by death of the cool on Jul 31, 2009 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions
i remember when they demanded
Greer AND Mateo for Clemens. Guffaw!
(why i keep going back and forth on this)
Ok... finmal offer if I'm JD
Offer the heralded Neftali Perez and be done with it
If I am JD (because everyone has an opinion, including me)
I say that 2010 is still our big year. Thus, I won’t trade anyone we expect to be key contributors on our 2010 roster. No Holland, Feliz, Smoak, or Borbon.
That still leaves guys like Perez, Font, one of the catchers, Beavan, Kiker, Main, Robbie Ross, Joe Weiland, etc. I’ll even through Hunter in there because hopefully we wouldn’t have room in the rotation for him next year anyways.
Is that enough to get it done? Based on media reports, no. But we can put together a package that’s better than what Philly gave up for Lee, and including four of five guys from that list could be a pretty nice haul for Toronto.
Wow, the typos in this thing are disgusting
I apparently reverted back to a backwoods hick and started saying “through” for “throw”
I think it's gonna take guys ready for The Show in 2010
Most baseball teams, like most corporations, aren’t run for long-term benefit as much as they are run to ensure the job/financial security of the people at the very top.
JP’s nuts are in a vice, and if he doesn’t get a big haul for Halladay that he thinks can save his job with guys that can show skills visibly in The Show in 2010 he’s most likely gone. Pumping up a minor league system with the Perez’ and Fonts of the world won’t do it for him (even though it may be the best deal he could get for the long term future of the franchise.) If he gets a still-solid/fair deal for Halladay this year that’s the best he could extract, but he still doesn’t think it would be enough to save his job, he won’t do it and the future of the Jays in 2011-2014 be damned.
That’s how business is done.
"He struck him out swinging! Hello no-hitter number seven!" - Mark Holtz
If you're trading Halladay, then you're running the team for long-term benefit
When JD traded Tex, the only player we received that was in AAA or higher was Salty. A package centered around the group I listed above would be very comparable to what received in the Tex deal.
And remember, JD designed the Tex deal “for long-term benefit,” but he also gained more job security out of it. Even though JD didn’t receive major-league ready prospects or young players (such as not taking the Anahiem offer), people around baseball immediately recognized the value in guys like Andrus and Feliz, even if they weren’t major-league ready. Plus, the combination of that trade deadline plus the 2007 draft firmly secured JD’s position as the leader of the Texas rebuilding effort.
So don’t tell me that JP won’t make a trade “for long-term benefit” in an effort to save his job, because we saw here in Texas that those two goals don’t always contradict.
What's the minimum result from Halladay that makes a trade worth it?
No single player is ever going to guarantee a World Series berth/win, but to me if you don’t make the playoffs in both 2009 and 2010 and at least win a playoff series in one of those years it is absolutely not worth it (assuming that a package requires Smoak + Feliz/Perez/Holland + a Bevean/Kiker + another decent B).
With no Halladay, in 2010 (assuming an offseason sale to a legitimate ownership group) you could roll out a rotation of Sheets/Millwood/Feldman/Holland/Hunter with Feliz as a great bullpen option or flex starter and Harrison in the mix as well – that’s a solid rotation and I think one of Feldman/Holland/Hunter/Feliz develops into someone who can be your third starter in a playoff series. You’ve got a lineup of:
Borbon CF
Young 3B
Kinsler 2B
Hamilton RF/DH
Cruz RF/DH
Davis/Smoak 1B
Murphy LF
Salty C
Andrus SS
You can win with that in 2010, and have the flexibility in $ and developed prospects to make a bigtime move at the deadline to put you over the top.
2009 is what kills a Halladay deal for me – I see no evidence that this lineup will deviate from its “I choose to lose” approach for the rest of the season. If a team is smart enough to make the playoffs, they won’t be dumb enough to throw this team strikes.
"He struck him out swinging! Hello no-hitter number seven!" - Mark Holtz
yeah.
it sounds more and more like if we don’t get this deal done this year, no one is. which i’d prefer. next season, when halladay will only be around for a couple months and cost us less. we still have a hole in the lineup. josh and ian show no signs of picking it up… for god’s sake nt this year. if you can get nick johnson for a B prospect, do it so ‘the room’ knows you made a move. stick to the plan.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
I will be pissed if Johnson goes for a B prospect
and it isn’t to us. Surely JD and Nolan have enough bandwidth to be up on that situation as well.
"He struck him out swinging! Hello no-hitter number seven!" - Mark Holtz
Who do we cut to add this bat?
No one has answered this for me.
Is Nick Johnson really enough of an upgrade over Andruw over the last portion of the season to cut Andruw Jones, send them, say, a Kiker + Manny Pina package, and take on a bit of salary in the process?
I’ve been on Nick Johnson’s sweet swining jock for many a year now, but I’m just wondering what exactly how much we’d really expect this improvement to get us and if the overall cost’d be worth it.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Everyone needs to drive a vehicle, even the very tall. This was the largest auto I could afford. Should I therefore be made the subject of fun?
by thedirkatron on Jul 31, 2009 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions
The only thing I see Nick Johnson used as
is a platoon partner for Blalock. I see no reason to not play Andruw, as long as he is the team leader in OPS, and can hit both lefties and righties.
So it would be a big trade for nothing. If you can’t upgrade your catching, or get a plussy plus OF, there isn’t much reason to make a trade for a position player, IMO.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
Hmmm
I had an argument, then ran a couple of numbers and it’s not as strong as I thought it would be.
Going on the theory that .OBP is 1.5x as valuable as slugging % in the run-predictive value of .OPS (I’m more inclined to go with 1.7x, but I won’t argue with 1.5), then you’ve got:
Johnson: .406 (1.5) + .402 = 1.011 ADJ OPS
Jones: .346 (1.5) + .556 = 1.075 ADJ OPS
Blalock: .294 (1.5) + .514 = .955 ADJ OPS
I don’t know if that’s enough to justify losing a Kiker+ (even though Kiker’s a pretty fungible asset with a lot of other guys in our system). There’s probably some extra value in creating a Johnson/Blalock L/R platoon, but holding onto a Kiker-type trade chip to use in a more directly beneficial deal may be the way to go.
I’ll admit to hating Blalock so I’m disappointed this analysis didn’t point clearly to shipping his ass out of town, but i’ll have to wait for the off-season for that.
The bottom line is Johnson isn’t enough to put you over the top in 2009 while Hamilton and Kinsler are both still suffering from rectal-cranial inversion.
"He struck him out swinging! Hello no-hitter number seven!" - Mark Holtz
The question was who do we cut to make room for Johnson
Its not gonna be either of our catchers, Kinsler, Andrus, Young, Vizquel, Murphy, Hamilton, or Cruz. As you point out the difference between Johnson and our current two DHs (Blalock and Jones) isn’t that much. The only way I see us going after Johnson is if we do something with Byrd, which is highly unlikely given his stature on this team.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Assuming the package
Nothing other than 2 playoffs in 09 and 10 and one pennant in one of those two years or 1 World series win would be a trade win in my opinion. If we don’t get into the world series, and we give up that much talent, the trade is a miserable failure.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
I feel the same way
"He struck him out swinging! Hello no-hitter number seven!" - Mark Holtz
So am I the only one who has enough confidence in CD left over...
to be semi-ok with dealing Smoak?
Granted, I don’t want to give up Holland (or Feliz, really). However, I’ve seen a lot of people who’s dealbreaker is Smoak.
Has everyone collectively given up on Davis?
I haven't given up on CD yet
he’s a guy I wouldn’t consider dealing this year unless I’m getting fair value for him and not a decreased value becase of his early season struggles. Smoak has/had struggles at AAA. Chris is raking there. Davis makes losing Smoak a lot more palatable.
I'm holding out hope for Davis
but that’s different than COUNTING on Davis, which I feel like you almost have to be able to do if you give up Smoak.
For me it’s Smoak’s fit on this team – not only does he bring exactly the skills so much of this lineup lacks (or, to my mind, selfishly chooses not to use) but maybe a rook with a .360 OBP could shame a few of these hackers into taking a less blatantly selfish approach.
"He struck him out swinging! Hello no-hitter number seven!" - Mark Holtz
i want a CD/Smoak 1b/DH combo for several years.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
I don't know if I've given up on Davis
I just think his upside is Henry Rodriguez, a guy who might go to one All Star game, and have a few years where he struggles, and Smoak is a perennial All Star.
I just don’t see anyone with Davis’ K and BB numbers becomes a perennial All Star.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
I tried to do a search
where someone with Davis’ K/BB ratio basicly made anything of themselves. Rodriguez was about as good as I could do.
Davis might have a little more power (maybe 20 points or so SLG), but I’d bet on the Avg OBP being similar.
I do think a K rate in the mid 20s, a BB rate around 7, and a HR rate around 6 or 7 is what I’d expect from Davis. I definitely see him as a 3TO guy.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
What has his K rate been down in AAA?
I haven’t really dug too deep into his numbers down there. I know he’s hitting well, but is striking out a lot when he’s not hitting?
22.1%
which would be the lowest of his minor lg career.
You are obsessed with bodily wastes A turd being held under my nose, this team being a steaming pile, Jonny Donuts having a stinky diaper, the front office pissing themselves, the team crapping the bed…
I think you should seek counselling.
(AJM to Josey Donuts)
by Michael Cave on Jul 31, 2009 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions
I just think Smoak is the perfect player for this team
more importantly though…smoak alone aint getting the deal done anyways
I don't get this
J.P. seems really concerned with image. I don’t see why he would float all of these huge deals only to have to accept a lesser deal (and you gotta think he’s accepting a lesser deal).
Conclusions:
-JP is a dumbass
-JP isn’t going to make a trade
"I just want to comment on how it’s become like a common thing in the [MLB] for guys to fall in love with [the Rangers’s] sloppy seconds." (thanks cstorm)
JP is motivated by saving his job
If he doesn’t get a big haul for Halladay that he thinks can save his job – which probably takes guys who can show results at the major league level in 2010 – he won’t bother even if a lesser/fair deal or one with more talented A/AA-ball prospects is on the table that would help the Jays in 2011 and beyond. If he ain’t around to see it, he doesn’t care what happens to the Jays. Yay perverse incentives.
JD needs to realize that sometimes you can’t make a good deal with someone operating on perverse incentives.
"He struck him out swinging! Hello no-hitter number seven!" - Mark Holtz
still
if JP is going for broke and not backing down, he’s gotta realize that he has maybe a 10% chance of getting a deal done and a 90% chance of being considered an abject failure
"I just want to comment on how it’s become like a common thing in the [MLB] for guys to fall in love with [the Rangers’s] sloppy seconds." (thanks cstorm)
agreed.
sometimes the smartest and hardest play is a fold.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
For once, I actually believe that a GM feels like he doesn't have to trade his guy...
He’s got Halladay next season too, and if he’s not traded, we’ll play this game again next year.
It would suit him better to get max value for him right now, but in the end, he has next year too (if he isn’t canned by then, which I don’t think he will be).
I think a decent case study
is Texeira. JD did a helluva job maximizing his value. Then ATL turned around and traded him next off season to a team with a chance at signing him but only getting a guaranteed 1/3 of a season.
You are obsessed with bodily wastes A turd being held under my nose, this team being a steaming pile, Jonny Donuts having a stinky diaper, the front office pissing themselves, the team crapping the bed…
I think you should seek counselling.
(AJM to Josey Donuts)
by Michael Cave on Jul 31, 2009 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions
If a solid deal still gets you fired
I don’t believe there will be any difference in his mind between that and abject failure.
It does all depend on his belief about his job security – if he’ll be around through 2010 and thinks he can salvage his job with a (lesser, by necessity) Halladay trade in 2010 while being smacked in the face by the hideous Wells + whoever else (I forget) contracts kicking in, then he’ll hold off. If he thinks it’s raping deal in 2009 or bust, he’ll hold out for a raping deal, or he’ll bust. If Halladay stays with the Jays it may be impossible to tell from the outside which mindset he followed, but I’d be willing to guarantee that a non-raping 2009 deal doesn’t happen.
"He struck him out swinging! Hello no-hitter number seven!" - Mark Holtz
Aren't people forgetting that Doc can force a trade this offseason too?
No fucking way I do this trade. (BTW, Beavan looked so bleh last night…..ugh, and Lemon lost the game by not catching a double play ball.)
The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...
Did you go to the Frisco game?
You are obsessed with bodily wastes A turd being held under my nose, this team being a steaming pile, Jonny Donuts having a stinky diaper, the front office pissing themselves, the team crapping the bed…
I think you should seek counselling.
(AJM to Josey Donuts)
by Michael Cave on Jul 31, 2009 8:35 AM CDT up reply actions
yep
The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...
by Kinslerhomer on Jul 31, 2009 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions
How was his velocity?
You are obsessed with bodily wastes A turd being held under my nose, this team being a steaming pile, Jonny Donuts having a stinky diaper, the front office pissing themselves, the team crapping the bed…
I think you should seek counselling.
(AJM to Josey Donuts)
by Michael Cave on Jul 31, 2009 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions
87-90 on the fastball hit 92 about 4 times 93 once.
His slider was 84-86. Change 78-81. Whittleman is a butcher with the glove (3 errors I think?) Moreland is very slow in right. Strop had good velo (93-97) but had no control. Zack Phillips was not very good, his velo was (88-90)
nice curve looked like a LOOGY at best. Thomas Diamond sucks.
The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...
by Kinslerhomer on Jul 31, 2009 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Also MJH tweeted that he was there and will put up a report later.
The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...
by Kinslerhomer on Jul 31, 2009 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions
What's his twitter name?
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 31, 2009 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions
@mjhindman
The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...
by Kinslerhomer on Jul 31, 2009 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions
thanks
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 31, 2009 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions
velocity
he actually got 93? wow.
ive seen him 3 times and he barely touched 91 and sat at 87-89 nearly the entire time.
Strops motions kinda freaky isn’t it?
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
very freaky.
The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...
by Kinslerhomer on Jul 31, 2009 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions
it's like his arm is going to fly to homeplate with the ball still in the grip
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
beavan
he has a habit of looking blah.
his first start in frisco wasnt bad, but its been downhill since
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
Im a big
beavan supporter but even im getting worried about his low strikeout rate.
You are obsessed with bodily wastes A turd being held under my nose, this team being a steaming pile, Jonny Donuts having a stinky diaper, the front office pissing themselves, the team crapping the bed…
I think you should seek counselling.
(AJM to Josey Donuts)
by Michael Cave on Jul 31, 2009 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Isn't this his second year
in pro ball, and he is a 20 year old in AA, he will probably start there next year, and I think he will be fine
by blueballlefty on Jul 31, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions
trust JD
I think JD has done his homework and knows what Halladay’s value is. It is not worth two of our top 4 prospects. All we keep hearing is what JP keeps leaking to the press: 2 of our top 4, ect, ect, etc. We haven’t heard the Rangers counter offer.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland - 2009 Rangers Minor League POY
If that factors into his decision making at all then he should be fired and subsequently hunted for sport by me.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Everyone needs to drive a vehicle, even the very tall. This was the largest auto I could afford. Should I therefore be made the subject of fun?
by thedirkatron on Jul 31, 2009 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Along these lines though...
..it would be interesting if GMs could poll their fan base the same way politicians can. I’m not saying that they should follow what the fans say every time, just like politicians shouldn’t be a slave to poll numbers. But it seems like it would be a valuable tool for them, if for no other reason than addressing the concerns of their base.
by GhettoBear04 on Jul 31, 2009 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Hell yeah...
Im gonna go all josey on him and kick his ass…
then bash him for the rest of his days in arlington
dont become retarded JD….please
For the average fan a halladay trade would be exciting
for us LSBers and prospect junkies it would be a swift kick to the balls. I’m jealous of my friends who have never heard of neftali feliz or Justin smoak, except for when tag or Josh mention them during a game. They’ve never felt the excitement of following a minor league game, and seeing your favorite prospect dominate the Texas league.
Last night cemented an idea for me. It is so much sweeter to see the fruits of a talent that you have followed from A ball all the way on his journey to the big leagues. I would much rather watch homegrown players write their legacy as baseball greats, than trade two of them away for 1.5 years of a guy that will always be remembered as a Blue Jay.
Do you think Derek Holland pitched the greatest game of his career last night? Or do you think he can out-do himself several times over the next few years? I’m one to believe that we might see 5 games or so that are better than last night thrown by Holland over the next 2 or 3 years if we hang on to him. How often is a pitchers greatest career game thrown as a rookie? He’ll only get better.
And I’ve always liked feliz better than holland.
Please JD, just say no. I want to win with the foundation we have grown, with players we have fallen in love with over the past few years, not with a rent-a-ace mercanary that is doesn’t even want to be here, and is just making a pit stop on the way to New York.
by rangerjake on Jul 31, 2009 9:03 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Some of the best decisons by GMs are the trades they didnt make
You are obsessed with bodily wastes A turd being held under my nose, this team being a steaming pile, Jonny Donuts having a stinky diaper, the front office pissing themselves, the team crapping the bed…
I think you should seek counselling.
(AJM to Josey Donuts)
by Michael Cave on Jul 31, 2009 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Larry Walker for Ian Kinsler
After Fuentes blows a save and an Angels loss to the Indians:
"Angels still in first place" - UCI Halo
"Hey you know who would have gotten those 3 outs in the 9th?
Darren O’Day." - FirebatM3
LOL
Lets hope we're talking about Smoak, Feliz or Holland for Halladay in that sense a year or two from now.
J.P. can take Roy Halladay and shove him up his ass. I’ll take Derek Holland. - AJM
I so don't want this to happen
I remember when the Astros traded for Randy Johnson-they did make the playoffs but got knocked out in the first round. Johnson pitched great, but they couldn’t score-1 run in 2 games for him. They gave up Freddy Garcia and Carlos Guillen for him-bet they would have liked to have those 2 guys the next 5-6 seasons.
Never argue with a fool. Onlookers might not be able to tell you apart.
The counter to this...
..is a team like the Angels. They have been consistently good over the past 5 years, but it seems like there were times where they could have capitalized on their MLB position and prospect value to give them a better chance in the playoffs. That said, they sort of did that last year with Tex and it didn’t work out, so I dunno. I just know I don’t want to get to a point where I’m forever waiting on the next wave of prospects.
by GhettoBear04 on Jul 31, 2009 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions
we won't be waiting much longer
Borbon, Smoak, Holland, Hunter, Feliz, and (obviously) Andrus – not to mention Chris Davis – will all most likely be on the 2010 Opening Day roster, and I actually expect them to do fairly well from the get-go.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
I think it's naive...
..to expect them all to be good from the get go. Sure Holland, Hunter, and Andrus could, but that’s because they’re taking their lumps this year. Borbon, Smoak, Feliz, Moscoso, and maybe Kiker or Beavan later in the season would have to go through the same thing.
But that wasn’t my point so much as, not all of your star prospect turn into star players. Realizing that is imperative in trying to maximize your chances at championships.
by GhettoBear04 on Jul 31, 2009 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions
just did
-7 thru 8. Holy crap
You are obsessed with bodily wastes A turd being held under my nose, this team being a steaming pile, Jonny Donuts having a stinky diaper, the front office pissing themselves, the team crapping the bed…
I think you should seek counselling.
(AJM to Josey Donuts)
by Michael Cave on Jul 31, 2009 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Tiger Woods wishes he could be as awesome as Derek Holland
"andruw jones hits 3 HRS at LA of Anaheim last nite after hitting zero at LA of LA as Dodger in all of '08. thats nuts." SI_JonHeyman
Am I missing this on TV somewhere?
Can’t find it…
What scares me about a Halladay trade...
is thinking about 2 years down the road when Halladay wants a 5 year, 100 million contract and all the Rangers get in return is NY or Boston’s first round draft choice for him and Holland is winning 20 games for Toronto while Smoak is an All-Star first baseman.
At the rate that young pitchers go down to injuries, I’d keep as many as possible in the system.
JP
Sabathia for 0.5 years with no chance of signing an extension was worth Mat Gamel last year but Halladay for 1.5 years with no chance of signing an extension is suddenly worth Justin Smoak, Derek Holland, Julio Borbon & Blake Beavan?
Seems a little high to me.
It is Halladay
plus cash for Justin Smoak, Derek Holland, Julio Borbon & Blake Beavan or something like that. It is still too much to give up.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland - 2009 Rangers Minor League POY
This is me walking away
At that price.
2009 Texas Rangers: Why The Hell Not Us?--ghtd36 on May 13, 2009
I wonder how much of any given hour of radio
Is commercials.
I keep flipping on the internet webcast of the ticket to see if they are talking baseball and its always a commercial.
the preceding post was a great success.
10 minutes?
I think it might be more actually
"I just want to comment on how it’s become like a common thing in the [MLB] for guys to fall in love with [the Rangers’s] sloppy seconds." (thanks cstorm)
OH lord
the Scruff McGruff commercial on the Ticket stream a couple of months ago nearly made me suck on a shotgun barrel….
Purgatory's kind of like the in-betweeny one. You weren't really shit, but you weren't all that great either. Like Tottenham.
Here's something I'm struggling with:
What is Smoak projected to do in the majors? Like, could someone through out some sort of rough guess at some numbers (OBP/OPS)? I understand that he’s supposed to be a good-great hitter with good defense and I completely agree that developing players who have his patience is incredibly important for this Rangers lineup.
But, just asking, how many 1B right now are playing as well as what Smoak would do for the Rangers over the next 5 years? It just seems to me that his value is in how cheaply he does it for you, not necessarily what he is doing for you. Compared to Holland or Feliz, where they could feasibly be giving you something that most teams only get from 1/5 of their starting pitchers (sub-4 ERA’s with 180+ innings).
My guess
is that within 3 years of hitting hte majors he is chasing 300/400/450? With his power growing as he rolls into his prime.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
Ok, so for some current comps:
AVG/OBP/SLG-wOBA(rank)
Billy Butler: .290/.345/.461-.350 (19th)
Paul Konerko: .285/.341/.500-.357 (17th)
Nick Johnson: .295/.408/.402-.363 (15th)
Todd Helton: .321/.403/.512-.393 (9th)
So realistically, somewhere around Paul Konerko and Nick Johnson for the next 3-4 years? We all realize that would mean MLB-average type stuff for a 1B ?
by GhettoBear04 on Jul 31, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
I tend to project low
With Feliz, I have a RHP power arm in the bullpen. Maybe the 7th inning guy.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
He's still fairly young.
He’ll probably be fairly useless at the major league level next year, and will be a usable bullpen guy next year.
I think there is a reason they moved him to the bullpen rather than kept him as a starter in AAA.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
AJM threw out an interesting comp
On the Rangers Bloggers Inc. Podcast a few weeks ago… John Olerud.
Kanye, you want to be the voice of this generation? Get in line! It goes me, Obamagirl, the Freecreditreport.com guys, then It's a tie between you-and Crocs.
-Stephen Colbert
by Conjunction on Jul 31, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
according to T.R.
talks are now “between dead and life-support”. I hope no one admisters CPR.
Never argue with a fool. Onlookers might not be able to tell you apart.
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