Evan Grant on the Rangers then and now
Evan Grant compares the Rangers' stats at the halfway point of 2009 to the team's stats at the halfway point of 2008.
Interesting comparison, and it drives home what a big change there has been in terms of run prevention.
I think the biggest areas of disagreement between those (like me) who thought this team would be a little above .500, and those who thought it was a sub-.500 team, was in the area of run prevention. There was a school of thought that said, it is the same pitching staff, the same defense other than an error-prone 20 year old going to shortstop and a guy with no range moving to third base to play a position he's never played before, "regression to the mean" is crap, and thus this team is going to give up 900+ runs again, maybe even 1000.
And most of the statistical models seemed to think that this team was going to be terrible in terms of run prevention, as well, which is what led to, say, PECOTA projecting the Rangers having the 2nd worst record in baseball in 2009.
I'm wrong a lot, so I'd like to pat myself on the back and say I'm right here...but the reality is, I still had the Rangers giving up somewhere in the mid- to high-800s in terms of runs allowed in 2009. A drop of 100 runs from 2008, with a pitching staff that was basically the same, seemed awfully aggressive, but looking at the expected defensive improvement and the fact that, in terms of luck (largely vis-a-vis strand rate), there should be some improvement, I thought that it was defensible and reasonable.
But the Rangers are on pace to give up 749 runs this season...an improvement much better than I think anyone expected. And part of that is due to the fluky strand rate that we've talked about with Kevin Millwood and that relates to some others...I would wager the Rangers give up more than 750 runs this year.
But still, this is real progress...and I think Evan's breakdown really helps illustrate that...
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#3 in MLB in Defensive Runs Saved, per John Dewan
Team P C 1B 2B 3B SS LF CF RF Total
1. Toronto Blue Jays 5 3 0 20 8 18 -1 -12 4 45
2. LA Angels 3 -1 4 2 8 -4 13 5 8 38
3. Texas Rangers 5 1 -1 18 -15 11 3 4 10 36
*Used with permission from John Dewan’s Stat of the Week™
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
by Rodney on Jul 8, 2009 9:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Beat me to it.
Can’t believe Boston is at the bottom.
Team P C 1B 2B 3B SS LF CF RF Total
Baltimore Orioles 2 -4 -8 2 -3 9 -8 3 -4 -11
Minnesota Twins 2 -2 -5 -15 11 -7 6 3 -7 -14
KC Royals 4 -2 1 -11 -7 -5 8 9 -13 -16
Florida Marlins -15 -2 -2 -4 1 1 -4 3 5 -17
Boston Red Sox -7 -4 7 1 -20 -10 -1 -2 4 -36
If the Rangers were like last year and ranked near the bottom, say where Florida is, the difference in runs allowed would be 53, which would put them at 432 runs in 82 games. At that rate, they would have given up 506 runs through 96 games, which is the number of games before the ASB in 2008 when they gave up 515.
With a team +/- ranking similar to 2008, the improvement in the starting rotation would’ve been basically nullified, and it speaks to the large randomness of baseball statistics that clear improvements in BB/9 by the starters but not in other stats (HR/9 and K/9 or defensive efficiency) could have had a very small impact on the bottom line number of runs allowed.
One thing that isn’t quantified well by this number parsing is the sustainability of the pitching staff’s performance. I think the big improvement of the pitching staff may not be in the bottom line so much as in the staying power of their performance.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
by rooster on Jul 8, 2009 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BOS
Not too surprised about Boston; Lowell has been playing with a bad hip, and Nick Green has logged the most innings at SS.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Jul 8, 2009 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Weren't you the one who turned me on to the mailing list for Dewan?
It’s always a good read, especially when it features our Rangers.
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
by Rodney on Jul 8, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep. Sometimes the stat under discussion is too unique or contrived, but generally a good read.
FuturePants — email info@actasports.com with ‘opt in’ in the first line of the text.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
by rooster on Jul 8, 2009 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stat of the Week
has had several nice tidbits that include Rangers in recent months.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Jul 8, 2009 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I give JD a ton of credit
for his handling of the Andrus situation. I think that singular move may be responsible for the majority of the improvement in run prevention, and it was a ballsy call at the time. Very ballsy.
There's more to the picture than meets the eye.
by tricer on Jul 8, 2009 10:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Very much agree.
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
by Rodney on Jul 8, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they did play the "good cop, bad cop" thing quite well in hindsight.
I was down on thier handling of things at first, but i retrospect it seems like they played it VERY well. They let the guy with the least cred in the room be the bearer of bad news, they let MY have his time to vent, they made a cursory attempt to honor his trade request, and then had the guys with the most baseball cred smooth things over.
Had they let Nolan or Wash break the news to him, and he twisted off the way he did, THEN who could talk him into moving on?
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
by bking on Jul 8, 2009 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very interesting point
Hadn’t thought about it that way.
"wORLD sEIRES HERE WE COMER!!!!!!!!!"by bigsteve on May 29, 2009 10:21 PM PDT
"Elvis Andrus has just performed a miracle." -Eric Nadel
by WestTxAg06 on Jul 8, 2009 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neither had I until this 5-day weekend..
amazing what a phenominal number of naps can do for you..
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
by bking on Jul 8, 2009 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fixed.
amazing what a phenominal number of naps beers can do for you..
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
by Rodney on Jul 8, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lol, fixed yours too
amazing what a phenominal number of naps beers can do for to you..
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
by bking on Jul 8, 2009 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One word... Nolan Freakin' Ryan...
…OK that was three words but I’m eagerly anticipating the stampede of posters letting us know that all this run prevention and first-place-iness is attributable to the long tall Texan and all his awesome Texanhood forcing our pitchers to become physical freaks capable of preventing runs better than they ever have before.
Nolan eats PECOTA for breakfast and in the afternoon right before gametime he shits out run prevention.
I have no objection to man walking on the moon.
by Chad Crudup on Jul 8, 2009 10:10 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Heh.
Get on base or die, Salty.
"Young is the Good version of David Eckstein. Grossly overrated because of grit. He can move one step to the right, and a half step to the left whereever you put him in the field." - DJ Cahill
by lonestarJon on Jul 8, 2009 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also amazing to note
that the pitching staff has issued so many fewer walks. Strikeouts aren’t too far off-pace from last year’s numbers, but walking 60 fewer batters is huge, in my opinion.
by jwiscarson on Jul 8, 2009 10:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I noticed that, too
and I’m wondering if the pitchers aren’t more comfortable throwing strikes and not nibbling so much with the solid defense behind them. The accountability stance from Ryan might help in this area as well.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Jul 8, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone have what our % of batters walked looks like?
Since our defensive efficiency is higher, we’re facing fewer batters… Therefore, there are fewer batters to be walked.
How much lower is our Walk Rate compared to last years?
by Trickman on Jul 8, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting stuff
Josey has still been hanging his hat on the “Vegas and PECOTA know their stuff and they picked us to win 72, don’t count this a .500 season yet” argument, but when PECOTA so badly screws up the run prevention aspect of this ballclub, that kind of kicks one leg out from under their prediction and makes it hard to rely on it the rest of the way.
"wORLD sEIRES HERE WE COMER!!!!!!!!!"by bigsteve on May 29, 2009 10:21 PM PDT
"Elvis Andrus has just performed a miracle." -Eric Nadel
by WestTxAg06 on Jul 8, 2009 10:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I love my stats...
But things like this are why I don’t really like to hang my hat on PECOTA or the like. Not that it doesn’t have a place and isn’t interesting to look at, but I don’t know why some people look at it as the preseason gospel.
Get on base or die, Salty.
"Young is the Good version of David Eckstein. Grossly overrated because of grit. He can move one step to the right, and a half step to the left whereever you put him in the field." - DJ Cahill
by lonestarJon on Jul 8, 2009 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's also retarded to cite Vegas odds as some kind of evidence....
….when Vegas odds depend solely on the number of bets made on either side.
by FuturePants on Jul 8, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How so?
The lines absolutely are adjusted completely based on bets placed.
by FuturePants on Jul 8, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes they can be adjusted
But the initial line is based on their projections.
Remember Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.
by WyoRanger on Jul 8, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
So if you are literally the very first person to place a bet, I will allow you to cite as some kind of evidence the Vegas line. After that, it’s wholly determined by the bets taken.
by FuturePants on Jul 8, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not necessarily
If Vegas thinks people are wrong they aren’t going to adjust the line as much. Vegas isn’t going to change their line based on fans’ blind faith in their favorite team and Vegas does believe they can predict the outcome of a game better than the betters.
Remember Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.
by WyoRanger on Jul 8, 2009 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They base it on money played.
If they think the line has dipped too far and people are still taking what they think is now way more likely to be the losing side, they may not adjust the line back up as quickly, essentially playing odds themselves, but the point is: line is done via bets, not knowledge.
by FuturePants on Jul 8, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It isn't wholly determined
I’ve heard this talked about before by folks in Vegas who do this for a living. A lot of action on one side can, and oftentimes will, move a line, but Vegas doesn’t set or maintain lines based solely on the action involved. They will keep a line a certain way even if there’s a lot of action on one side if there is a certain level of confidence that the people betting that way are betting wrong.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 8, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is a good book on the subject...
…by Chad Millman called “The Odds”. It looks at the legal sports betting industryfrom several different sides, including a good look at how a sports book is run at a major casino. One of the items covered is how the original lines are determined and how different factors cause them to move.
Before reading the book I thought that all Vegas wanted to do was even out the money on both sides and collect the vig. I was surprised to learn that the books actually "gamble’ themselves and love it when the majority of the money is on the side they feel will be the loser.
I have no objection to man walking on the moon.
by Chad Crudup on Jul 8, 2009 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's kinda hard for me to blame PECOTA in all this.
I think you blame the application of PECOTA in a situation with so many unknowns. Not to say that you can’t trust projection systems, but that you should also recognize the variability of their accuracies when you’re talking about a brand new 20-year-old shortstop and a new third baseman as well.
I also find it hard to discount Kinsler’s ridiculous improvement between last year (-7.3) and this year (+5.4). Of all the things Evan noted, I was surprised to see him not mention that in the realm of “unexpected improvements”.
by jwiscarson on Jul 8, 2009 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point on Kinsler...
I know he’s got a much better situation with CD manning first and Andrus at short (giving him a silly-small zone to cover) but he has really settled down this year. Of course, when most of his errors were on routine plays, you would expect him to “grow out of it” somewhat.
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
by bking on Jul 8, 2009 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I don’t think PECOTA was necessarily wrong based on the information at hand, but as LSJ said it’s difficult to treat it as preseason gospel.
Look at it preseason, that’s fine, but when the preseason projections CLEARLY missed something major like the team’s defense and there is no indication that the team’s defensive performance is a fluke, I have no idea how a rational logical person can still hang their hat on PECOTA’s preseason projection like there’s nothing wrong with it.
"wORLD sEIRES HERE WE COMER!!!!!!!!!"by bigsteve on May 29, 2009 10:21 PM PDT
"Elvis Andrus has just performed a miracle." -Eric Nadel
by WestTxAg06 on Jul 8, 2009 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
It makes me wonder if BP couldn’t include a margin of error based on the number of unknown factors on a team. Clearly, very few teams promote 20-year-olds to the majors, so there aren’t a whole lot of comps there.
Additionally, as Evan pointed out (and we’ve all known for a while), our improvement in run prevention has come from the defense…and I’ve read in a few places that past performance isn’t a good predictor.
by jwiscarson on Jul 8, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish we had more access to the range of outcomes from PECOTA rather than only the median projections.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
by rooster on Jul 8, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its a projection system
much like any other. As long as no one can predict the future, there will not be a perfect one.
PECOTA is as good as any other though.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
by DJCahill on Jul 8, 2009 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Always in motion is the future.
It’s good to give distributions of future outcomes and update frequently.
Maybe someday someone will reverse engineer PECOTA and post that kind of stuff free of charge.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
by rooster on Jul 8, 2009 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be curious to know
who really thought it was predictable that the Rangers would go from the worst defensive team in the game to one of the best. Based on Defensive Efficiency, we are 6th best this year, and we are only .002 away from 2nd best.
I understand regression to the mean and all that, but this team blew way past the mean to the other extreme.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
by DJCahill on Jul 8, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's all in The Hips.
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
by Rodney on Jul 8, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I saw a lot of improvement, but definitely not THIS much...
An improved left side, a full year of Davis (oh well…), a consistent OF lineup (sigh#2), and the expectation that our pitchers wouldn’t be the butchers they were last year all led me to expect a better defense.
I was hoping for low-mid 800’s.
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
by bking on Jul 8, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read a blog of a White Sox fan - who said PECOTA had missed on them 6 of 7 years.
His reasoning was because they pitch to contact, just like our philosophy.
by diamond_dave on Jul 8, 2009 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, defense would seem to naturally be
the hardest thing for a system like PECOTA to quantify.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Jul 8, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I think “regression to the mean” as an argument is crap when you are actually arguing about what the mean is.
That said, I thought this team was a 900 +/- 100 runs allowed club. I think I said that 1000 was more probable than less than 800, because as you suggested, the pitching staff was basically the same and the defense wasn’t obviously improving as much as it should have been. So I was obviously wrong – the pitching staff has been better and the defense has been ridiculously better (I’d be interested if defensive metrics of pooled fielders are equivalent to the sums of individuals – the Young / Andrus combination seems awfully efficient out there).
I think other than the fielding, the most important result Evan shows it the 4% drop in pitches per inning, which is accompanied by an 11% increase in starters’ innings. The bullpen is a team weakness, but because the starting pitching has been strong and pitching deep into games, it hasn’t been as overexposed as last year, allowing Wash to use it more effectively (16.5% improvement in bullpen ERA over last year).
Go Rice Owls!
by JBImaknee on Jul 8, 2009 10:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The starter's aren't better.
The starters making it through more innings is a direct result of more balls in play turning into outs.
The number of innings provided by starters, and pitches by starters, is going to be pretty strongly correllated with defensive efficiency.
The decrease in # of walks could be somewhat attributed to it as well. Anyone have the % of batters walked last year vs this year? If it’s the same, we’re walking fewer batters simply because we’re facing fewer batters.
by Trickman on Jul 8, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BBs
2009 %BB = 8.8
2008 %BB = 9.6
2009 BB/9 = 3.4
2008 BB/9 = 3.9
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland - 2009 Rangers Minor League POY
by RangerMad on Jul 8, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was definitely someone
who didn’t see this level of defensive improvement. It will be interesting to see if it holds through the 2nd half of the year, or if 100 degree days mean we see a little sloppier defense due to player fatigue.
I did see the offensive dropoff though. Its tough to lose a player of Bradley’s Caliber and replace him with a rookie SS and not see a substantial dropoff in offense. Also, Hamilton’s injuries haven’t helped.
I figured it was going to be kind of like last years team, close but no cigar to 500.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
by DJCahill on Jul 8, 2009 10:42 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's the poll AJM did for LSB projection on runs allowed.
http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/2/3/745649/runs-allowed-over-under-an
Remember Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.
by WyoRanger on Jul 8, 2009 11:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I voted the 900-920 range
and am pleasantly surprised that we are seeing the level of improvement we are primarily based on fielding differences. Realistically the pitching really just isn’t any different from last year.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
by DJCahill on Jul 8, 2009 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is it 'luck' that contributes to a high strand rate?
by oc on Jul 8, 2009 11:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Because the stat-heads say it shouldn't happen..
so it must be luck; it can’t be a flaw in the metric.
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
by bking on Jul 8, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats not it
if it was controllable, you’d see great pitchers have sustained high strand rates for years at a time, or even for a decade at a time.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
by DJCahill on Jul 8, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My sarcasm quasi-tag got stripped out...
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
by bking on Jul 8, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whether it is or isn't a random variance
I’m still waiting for AJM to explain what the RISP line should look like for Millwood or anyone else.
by brettgardner on Jul 8, 2009 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We will see
if it is sustainable over many years.
Most things attributed to luck just don’t get sustained very long, so if a player had control over it, they’ve forgotton how to control it.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
by DJCahill on Jul 8, 2009 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Simple answer is the probability of a hit bringing a run in.
In any given situation, there is a general probability of a pitcher stranding a runner.
This probability would be the probability of giving up a hit that scores a runner prior to recording the third out.
If a pitcher could do something special to strand runners by getting outs, the theory is that the pitcher would already be doing that special thing to prevent runners in the first place — therefore, any deviation from that pitcher’s mean is strictly due to a lucky roll of the die.
This would be another case of determining what the pitcher’s true mean is, which is no trivial task since the defense and opposing offense have to be taken into account.
by Trickman on Jul 8, 2009 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
or it could be
clutch/back-to-the-wall pitching. Its much different than pitching with the bases empty
by corbsclinton on Jul 8, 2009 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pulls up a chair to watch the "clutch debate" v1001.2
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
by bking on Jul 8, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i was one of the
founding members
by corbsclinton on Jul 8, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
*
of “clutch exists” posters here
by corbsclinton on Jul 8, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just think its funny how
people can believe in luck in baseball but not clutch, I got many rises out of our statheads. If you can’t prove it mathmatically then it does not exist.
by corbsclinton on Jul 8, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Clutch is something to me thats repeatable. Its tough to find anyone who is consistently better than their averages over a career.
Luck is a hot streak that won’t last.
If you could flip a head whenever you wanted, that would be clutch. If you flip 10 heads in a row, that would be luck.
If we had a 10 flip coin flipping contest, and we had tens of thousands of folks enter, it would be almost inevitable that someone would win with 10 straight heads being flipped.
A lot of folks in here would call that clutch.
The statheads would call it luck, and they’d be right.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
by DJCahill on Jul 8, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Is it luck or just SSS?
A 50/50 prop like a coin flip is NEVER made up of heads/tails/heads/tails/etc.
But, we’re basically in agreement about the difference; its all a matter of terminology.
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
by bking on Jul 8, 2009 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
luck is sss.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
by DJCahill on Jul 8, 2009 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clutch
The problem with clutch is that there’s little to no proof that it’s a repeatable skill from year-to-year. Players who did well in clutch situations one year frequently do poorly the following year.
Does clutch exist? Probably so. But it’s one of those things like chemistry, that’s often used to extoll one player (or team’s) character over another by lazy sportswriters.
"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky
by RCCook on Jul 8, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if
timely hitting and fielding aren’t repeatable skills then why do we have the HOF? Or better yet, why isn’t the HOF completely made up of players who’s stats are the best and that’s the only criteria?
by corbsclinton on Jul 8, 2009 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not being obtuse but I'm not following
HOF is voted on the by the sportswriters and they like talking about clutch and grit more than anyone. The fact someone has a reputation for clutchiness or is clutchtastic doesn’t make that true.
Remember Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.
by WyoRanger on Jul 8, 2009 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If there are no unmeasurables
why isn’t the HOF based solely of the top 2% statistically that played the game? If you don’t agree that’s the way it should be, then what additional criteria is there? Is it measurable?
“..he was the kind of teammate that you wanted to have 9 of..”
“Oh really? What was his likability index?”
by corbsclinton on Jul 8, 2009 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The HOF is based on the guys
voted on by 75% of eligible BBWAA or inducted by the veterans committee.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
by DJCahill on Jul 8, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm aware.
But if stats tell the whole story why do we need them?
by corbsclinton on Jul 8, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because
the Hall of Fame generates money, and makes the BBWAA, which is probably dying these days, feel important.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
by DJCahill on Jul 8, 2009 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
And here’s a big problem I have with concepts like “clutch” in terms of HOF voting- it’s based solely on a particular sportswriter’s perception of things.
This is how you get writers voting for Jack Morris for the Hall, and not Bert Blyleven, based on the belief that Morris “knew how to win” and was more “clutch” in the playoffs than Blyleven, when the stats tell you that Blyleven was the superior pitcher in nearly every regard, and just as good in the playoffs.
Another example- Michael Young is a player who’s viewed by a lot of people around here as a clutch hitter. For his career, he has an 846 OPS with RISP, and an 847 OPS with RISP and 2 outs. But this year, he has a 474 OPS with RISP, and a 393 OPS with RISP and 2 outs. How to explain that?
Yes, some people handle pressure better than others. I accept that. I know people who are lousy at taking timed tests. I happen to be pretty good at them. But I couldn’t tell you how much better I did on a given test because of that, and I don’t think it’s a replacement for knowing the material or studying.
"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky
by RCCook on Jul 8, 2009 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
RISP is only part of it
how about 2-out hits, solo-bombs, runner on 1st Hrs, double to start out the inning, etc
by corbsclinton on Jul 8, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well that's basically all of baseball
so if you’re good at baseball, then you’re clutch?
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 8, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its all of baseball
if its not a game changing situation
-down by a 1-3
-9th inning
-2outs
-pinch-hitting
But yeah, if its a 10-4 game, its not clutch to hit a HR that makes the game 11-4.
by corbsclinton on Jul 8, 2009 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even so
Check Young’s situational stats from year to year. There’s a serious amount of variance.
Last year, Young hit:
Bases empty: 726 OPS
Runners On: 758
RISP: 764
RISP, 2 outs: 724
Bases loaded: 449
None on/out: 892
None on, 1/2 out: 653
Runners on, 2 outs: 648
This year:
Bases empty: 969 OPS (243 points better)
Runners On: 703 (55 points worse)
RISP: 474 (290 points worse)
RISP, 2 outs: 393 (331 points worse)
Bases loaded: 1.350 (901 points better)
None on/out: 1.174 (522 points better)
None on, 1/2 out: 876 (223 points better)
Runners on, 2 outs: 798 (150 points better)
That level of year-to-year variance is pretty common, not only for Young, but for most players. That’s what I mean about it being near-impossible to measure “clutch”- if Young really had some kind of innate clutch skill, why is there so much variance in those numbers?
"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky
by RCCook on Jul 8, 2009 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s called "Hall of Fame." "Fame" for "famous."
“Famous" is part of the equation.
/Colin Cowherd
"wORLD sEIRES HERE WE COMER!!!!!!!!!"by bigsteve on May 29, 2009 10:21 PM PDT
"Elvis Andrus has just performed a miracle." -Eric Nadel
by WestTxAg06 on Jul 8, 2009 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Colin Cowherd
is almost up with albert Einstein.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
by DJCahill on Jul 8, 2009 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe clutch exists
But more likely it’s adjustments. A batter gets two strikes so he shortens his swing and chokes up to fight pitches off but also robs himself of power. Pitchers may pound the zone more with no one on but when someone is in scoring position they may nibble to try and get a weak grounder or strikeout but also risk more that they’ll walk the hitter.
Remember Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.
by WyoRanger on Jul 8, 2009 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"A batter gets two strikes so he shortens his swing and chokes up to fight pitches off but also robs himself of power"
Hank Joe scoffs at such tomfoolery.
By golly when there’s two strikes you don’t want to rob yourself of power, so just keep on swinging from your heels!
"wORLD sEIRES HERE WE COMER!!!!!!!!!"by bigsteve on May 29, 2009 10:21 PM PDT
"Elvis Andrus has just performed a miracle." -Eric Nadel
by WestTxAg06 on Jul 8, 2009 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Err...
You kinda damned yourself with this statement: “If you can’t prove it mathematically, then it doesn’t exist”.
Considering baseball takes place entirely within the observable physical realm (I’m not dragging this into an absurd religious or metaphysical debate), a burden of proof exists here.
As Dan said above, luck is just a word used for small sample sizes — the same reason Gallup polls include margins of error.
by jwiscarson on Jul 8, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
why did I pick
your post to reply to? there were about 15 others. Is there some math you could show me to explain that?
Same goes for if I swing at a pitch in the 9th and put it over the wall.
There is no amount of math that can predict human nature/behavior or quantify when someone is going to consistently deliver in pressure situations yet people do it all the time in all different professions, why is baseball different.
by corbsclinton on Jul 8, 2009 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then why don't they consistently deliver in all situation and not just pressure ones?
Remember Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.
by WyoRanger on Jul 8, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're talking about completely different things.
The reason you swung has little to do with the mechanics involved in swinging, and the reason you swung has absolutely nothing to do with the reason the pitcher threw the pitch he did.
You’re trying to draw equate effort to result while only considering half of the equation.
by jwiscarson on Jul 8, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As soon as you show me
one pitcher who shows clutch/back to the wall pitching for an entire career, I’ll believe in it.
3 months don’t convince me of anything.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
by DJCahill on Jul 8, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that would be like saying
a player needs to have a 1.200 OPS for a career or OPS is bullshit.
by corbsclinton on Jul 8, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it isn't.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
by DJCahill on Jul 8, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kenny Rogers?
I don’t have the numbers, but I remember it was always said (by the media at least) that Rogers was very good at stranding runners.
"What is that — five out of six? The numbers say what they say. They own us." -- Torii Hunter, 07/01/09
by NorCalRangersFan on Jul 8, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
70.5 LOB% for his career
And for the most part, didn’t have many years that greatly went higher or lower than that. Especially after becoming a starter, it looks like his average LOB rate went down a bit.
So over his career, Kenny Rogers had a pretty average strand rate like you would expect a pitcher to have over a large sample size.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Jul 8, 2009 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not clutch or luck, maybe other factors
like small sample, random variation. Luck can also be in the form of which batters just happened to be next in the order, weather, defensive positioning with a runner being kept on the bag, etc. One factor that might be able to be examined, though, is whether a pitcher is more or less comfortable pitching from the stretch.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Jul 8, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this talk of
luck is kind of a hard headed putdown by a lot of you. Whoever said that SSS should replace the terminology of luck is really on to something.
I think this discussion is very light on recognizing the effects of the hitters and their different streaks, batting orders, game situations, etc. Also, does a pitcher have to be god their whole career to get credit for when they are doing well, or does some type of variance in their abilities seem to be, well, human?
My only real opposition to some of the stat oriented arguments is that they tend to postulate that athletes are robots with no variance in their execution or ability over time instead of the humans that they are.
This is perfectly summarized when it is said that if a pitcher had that certain something to get batters out, he would always do it. Really, all the pitcher can do is to try to do that certain something.
by mcgee48c on Jul 8, 2009 2:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It isn't sports in general.
We apply it to baseball quite heavily because of the amount of skill refinement at the major league level.
I often use this comparison with my friends: how many minor leagues does the NFL have? No official ones. How many does basketball have? One. Hockey? One. Baseball? Six. Also, think about the repeatable actions taken in baseball (that is, pitching and hitting mechanics) and the length of the season. Baseball seasons are roughly twice as long as basketball/hockey seasons, and ten times the length of football seasons.
We aren’t saying that no variability exists (we are still talking about humans, even given what I just said), just that it isn’t statistically significant outside of luck/small sample size.
by jwiscarson on Jul 8, 2009 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
is it
luck when a human beats a computer in Chess?
by corbsclinton on Jul 8, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What does that have to do with what I stated above?
by jwiscarson on Jul 8, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
clearly, computers and numbers are the devil
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Jul 8, 2009 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Statheads
don’t postulate that athlete are robots with no varience.
If a person is always trying to do something, and is unusually good at it for 3 months, and average at it over his whole career, he is having a lucky 3 months. Or you can say it is a small sample size anomaly if you don’t like luck. Its all the same.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
by DJCahill on Jul 8, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do we use closers
if they weren’t clutch?
Question: If I took CJ’s ERA in closing situations and compared it to his ERA in non-closing situations, what do you think would be the outcome would be?
by corbsclinton on Jul 8, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We use closers
because they are good pitchers, not because they are clutch.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
by DJCahill on Jul 8, 2009 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All of your suggestions, questions and answers
suck, and it isn’t because of bad luck.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Jul 8, 2009 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What you're describing
is the very essence of what I’m saying. I’m not sure that I can always relegate differences in performance to luck (and you guys love to say luck). There’s no acknowledgment that they just might be performing better for a while. I really don’t believe that regression to the mean is the only factor regarding why a player is better at one time than another.
I could go along with small sample size because many streaks of performance (good and bad) are not sustainable.
by mcgee48c on Jul 8, 2009 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I think
some of the discussions and arguments are over semantics. I use luck and small sample size fairly interchangeably.
To me, if someone can make something happen, that he would always want to happen, like high strand rate (there isn’t a pitcher in the league that is trying to get a low strand rate), either it is a skill that a pitcher can make happen fairly repeatably, or there is a chance that over a small enough sample he is just having a good run.
We’ll see over the course of the year with Millwood. My guess is that number drops like a rock. That he will try just as hard to strand runners, but the laws of big numbers will start catching up to him.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
by DJCahill on Jul 8, 2009 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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