Whitesox get Rios - for nothing
This was the rumor, and yep it actually happened. Straight up waiver claim, take on the contract but give up nothing at all.
I know hes got a big contract and is having a meh year, but this is still pretty crazy to me, hes a good player.
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he's from arlington TAG
Nobody is perfect, i am nobody, therefore, i am perfect
by 34express on Aug 10, 2009 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and Michael Young's BFF
Alma para conquistarte, corazón para quererte, y vida para vivirla junto a ti.
by chrisR on Aug 10, 2009 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
while the market is down and all
according to Fangraphs valueation, Rios has been worth this if he was on the open market:
2006: 12.1 million
2007: 18.7
2008: 24.6
this year he’s only been worth 5 mill, but you can expect his offensive numbers to come back to the .350 wOBA level he previously surpassed every year. His defense has always and still is very good at the corners and above average in CF even. At the end of that contract he probably wont be worth it, but there are few big contracts given to players who end up being worth the money they are paid at the end of them.
I understand the Jays were in a bad spot financially, but its JP’s fault they got themselves into this + if they deal Halladay this becomes a non-problem. If Riccardi is still GM after this season id be upset as a Jay’s fan.
by Kambala7 on Aug 10, 2009 6:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Last years $24.6 million...
…was driven by an insanely high UZR that he is unlikely to replicate.
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 10, 2009 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
true, im not saying thats the end all, but still, if you look at the mean
he’s worth his contract or at least very close to worth it. Getting him midseason is an added bonus.
by Kambala7 on Aug 10, 2009 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except the likelihood is...
…that from 2010 on, he’ll play worse than his mean from the past few years…
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 10, 2009 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still, getting him for nothing has to be a better deal than giving up Wallace + Arms for .3 seasons of Matt Holliday, right?
Holliday is the better player, but even if you resign him, it’s going to be for far more than 5/60.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Aug 10, 2009 7:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rios's contract running for so much longer than Holliday's
That’s a bug, not a feature.
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 10, 2009 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man, you sure did answer the shit out of that question.
You’re like on nice irrational hatred away from full-on becoming Josey at this point.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Aug 10, 2009 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the thing
Your ideal commitment to a player like this is 2-3 years. If Rios were under contract for $12 million per year through 2011, hell yeah, I’d jump all over him…
But then, if he were under contract through 2011 at that price, the Jays wouldn’t be willing to let him go.
There’s a very good chance he’ll be worth his contract the next couple of years, but the last few years of the deal, he probably won’t be. And that’s what makes these contracts so onerous, the fact that you are locking yourself in for a lot of money for a long time to a guy who, in the last few years, isn’t going to be a premier performer.
That’s the problem with the Michael Young deal, for example. It isn’t that the Rangers are paying him $16 million this year, or even next year, although that’s not good. It is that they are going to be paying him $16 million per year in 2013 when he’ll likely be a $6 million per year player.
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 10, 2009 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought they were
paying MY $12M/yr.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland -Tom Grieve Rangers Minor League Player of the Year
Martin Perez - Nolan Ryan Rangers Minor League Pitcher of the Year
by RangerMad on Aug 10, 2009 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they are
the rest are deferred, I believe
by Telegraph on Aug 10, 2009 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
From Cot's
# 5 years/$80M (2009-13)
* signed extension with Texas 3/07, with Rangers exercising $5M 2008 club option as part of the deal
* 09-13:$16M annually (total of $15M deferred)
* no-trade protection 2007-09, limited no-trade protection from 2010 to May, 2011 (submits list of 8 clubs to which he’d accept trade), before receiving 10-and-5 rights in May, 2011
* award bonuses: $50,000 for All Star selection; $25,000 for Gold Glove
Doesn’t really matter if it is deferred, at the end of the day, unless you want to include ARod, Juan Gonzalez, etc. in the Rangers’ payroll for 2010-15.
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 10, 2009 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was the argument with Torii Hunter, yet here we are bemoaning the #4 hitter situation of the past couple of years.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
by rooster on Aug 10, 2009 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i wonder how hard the BJ's tried to get something back
I guess they’re not in a real reasonable negotiating position but if they had kept saying “please, pretty please,” I wonder if they would have gotten something.
And, I can’t imagine what this sounds like for the average BJ’s fan.
"I just want to comment on how it’s become like a common thing in the [MLB] for guys to fall in love with [the Rangers’s] sloppy seconds." (thanks cstorm)
by ab03 on Aug 10, 2009 7:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Reading on BlueBird Banter
There’s some pretty depressed people over there. Not as much with losing Rios, as it is to they finally realized their team has no plan at all right now. Sure glad we’re well past those days. Also found this link (got a laugh out of me):
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071205&content_id=2319216&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp
After Fuentes blows a save and an Angels loss to the Indians:
"Angels still in first place" - UCI Halo
"Hey you know who would have gotten those 3 outs in the 9th?
Darren O’Day." - FirebatM3
LOL
by hinduplaya on Aug 10, 2009 7:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
rebuilding sucks
Ricciardi will be at the winter meetings looking for his “Teixeira” deal. He is going to be disappointed.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland -Tom Grieve Rangers Minor League Player of the Year
Martin Perez - Nolan Ryan Rangers Minor League Pitcher of the Year
by RangerMad on Aug 10, 2009 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if he even survives that long
he prob should be fired before the winter meetings
After Fuentes blows a save and an Angels loss to the Indians:
"Angels still in first place" - UCI Halo
"Hey you know who would have gotten those 3 outs in the 9th?
Darren O’Day." - FirebatM3
LOL
by hinduplaya on Aug 10, 2009 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea, again, id b demanding his head if i was a Jays fan
he’s pretty much gotten himself in this situation
by Kambala7 on Aug 10, 2009 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing about his Teixeira deal is that
you don’t enter into a bidding situation asking for a Teixeira deal. No one will ever agree to that if they know that’s what you want from the outset. It has to be something that emerges from the flow of the trade discussions.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
by rooster on Aug 10, 2009 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just in Toronto for a game over the weekend
They had the 1992 and 1993 word series teams there that night which was pretty cool.
They ended up losing the game, and the crowd started a ‘Fire JP!’ chant. It was awesome yet sad at the same time.
by Anonymous New Guy on Aug 11, 2009 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
I mean… Wow.
To get a guy like him for nothing is boggling my mind.
I guess he plays CF for the White Sox this season, moving over to right once they jettison Dye?
That team added a ton of long term salary over the past 10 days.
Kind of wish we had to the financial muscle to add players like this on the cheap just by having the money to absorb their contracts….
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Aug 10, 2009 7:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
yea, he's got a good UZR something like +7 over his career in CF
if he can maintain that, im pretty sure the Chi Sox would be giddy to replace Pods with Rios this year and then move him in the future.
Seems like a pretty solid fit
by Kambala7 on Aug 10, 2009 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question
Let’s say he were a free agent after this season.
Would you sign him to a 5 year, $60 million deal, with a $13.5 million option for 2015?
I’d probably pass.
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 10, 2009 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Assuming we had the need for a COF and had the money to where we wouldn't be house poor after signing him... yah, I think he's worth that deal.
But then, I really like Rios.
I don’t think he was a fit here if that’s what you’re asking.
That contract doesn’t make sense for us right now and we’ve presumably got our two COF’s for the foreseeable future in Nelly and Hambone.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Aug 10, 2009 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you really like him?
I see a guy whose offensive value is largely average-driven…doesn’t draw a lot of walks, doubles power, gives you some steals.
He’s a terrific defender in a COF spot, but I don’t know that he’s had enough innings in CF to really gauge how good he’ll be out there…and plus, given that he’s in his late-20s, I don’t see him as someone who should be expected to be significantly above-average defensively there going forward.
ZiPS projects him the rest of the way as a .284/.340/.463 hitter, which seems quite reasonable, and he’s probably a +10-15 run defender in RF, maybe +3-7 in CF (although that might be aggressive).
Is that worth $12 million this year and next year? Probably. But committing to that in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, when he’s likely going to be getting worse?
Pass.
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 10, 2009 7:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The guy's 28 right now
so he’ll be what, 33 at the end of that contract? Do you really suppose he’s not going to improve during his peak years? If so, is it just relative to him as a player, as he’s slipped within the past year?
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Aug 10, 2009 7:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
x
he’ll be what, 33 at the end of that contract? Do you really suppose he’s not going to improve during his peak years?
He’s in the midst of his peak years now. A positional player’s peak years are generally from 25-29.
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 10, 2009 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
source?
I can't help it. I’m an asshole.
-brettgardner on Jul 7, 2009 10:55 PM EDT
by Jayslick on Aug 10, 2009 8:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what sort of statistical info do you have to back up the statement above?
I can't help it. I’m an asshole.
-brettgardner on Jul 7, 2009 10:55 PM EDT
by Jayslick on Aug 10, 2009 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bill James did a study on it some time ago
The CW at the time was that players peaked in their early-30s. James showed otherwise.
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 10, 2009 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was it James that found out
that there were two…. peaks, one at 24 and another at 27.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland -Tom Grieve Rangers Minor League Player of the Year
Martin Perez - Nolan Ryan Rangers Minor League Pitcher of the Year
by RangerMad on Aug 10, 2009 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was that...
…players peak defensively at 24-25 and offensively at 27-29. But I can’t remember where I read that.
by GhettoBear04 on Aug 10, 2009 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Having a players peak around 28
makes our plans of rushing prospects to the minors so our 6 years of control doesn’t cover age 28 a little wierd.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
by DJCahill on Aug 11, 2009 6:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And it ALWAYS works out exactly like that...
After all, MY was clearly in decline based on last year, right??
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
by bking on Aug 11, 2009 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, unless something works
100% of the time, you shouldn’t bother playing the odds?
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
by DJCahill on Aug 11, 2009 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not my point..
My point is that Adam seem to not even play the odds. He’s like a banker that needs to balance the books every day – everyone seems to be destined to regress to the mean as quickly as possible. In this case, a pretty damn good 28 year old is apparently a lock to be underperforming by age 31 it seems.
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
by bking on Aug 11, 2009 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
Adam explains exactly how he is playing the odds. He mentions nothing about a lock, or Always. He says what is likely to happen, not what is guaranteed to happen. You are the one who makes those bizarre leaps of logic.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
by DJCahill on Aug 11, 2009 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, expecting a pretty damn good player to not fall off the Earth over the next two years is a "bizarre leap of logic"
Gotcha… I’ll remember that.
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
by bking on Aug 11, 2009 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No,
Saying that Adam’s position is that the player will always decline is the bizarre leap of logic.
The other part in your most recent statement that is bizarre is the inclusion of “two years”. Rios is signed through 2014 with a 2015 club option. 2014 is five years from now.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
by DJCahill on Aug 11, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not quite the same
For us, no – because we have no payroll flexibility and a lack a severe need in the outfield
For the White Sox, it makes more sense. It is likely that he will play CF for the them – a position which he has shown throughout his career to be above average defensively. He will also likely put up above average offense for 3-4 years of the contract. I don’t think there is a lot of appealing CF free agent options coming up, so $12 million a year for a CF that plays above average defense and offense at the position is quite reasonable. If we assume that the monetary value of wins will decrease in the next few years, then objectively speaking, the contract breaks even. It’s obviously not a steal, but it’s a fair price to pay.
For the Sox, it has the extra value of filling a hole (very competently) at a premium position for the next few years. In addition, it helps their chances at a playoff run this year. Because they have the ability to spend money, the salary is less of an issue – since it does not prevent them from spending money elsewhere. Without attractive options in free agency, this is a great way to get rid of their CF problem without having to spent prospects through a trade.
by Telegraph on Aug 10, 2009 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This move, for the ChiSox...
…may make sense.
I think it is for most teams, however, questionable, and I certainly don’t think they got over on the Jays on this.
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 10, 2009 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neither do I, but the prevailing sentiment is that for any given deal, if one team benefits, the other must have lost
I do think the Sox legitimately benefit from this deal, and I would say the Jays could probably have gotten a bit more if they kept him and peddled him in the winter or before the next deadline – but that obviously come at a cost of several million in salary. I can’t really say whether paying 3-8 million dollars for a couple of prospects is a good deal or not.
by Telegraph on Aug 10, 2009 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats the kind of money
you pay for elite 1st round talent. or it could net you 3-4 really nice LA signings. seems like they wouldnt be able to get much more than a couple mediocre prospects for rios in the winter, so i would have a hard time justifying that wait, especially with money being as scarce as it seems to be in toronto.
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Aug 10, 2009 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That all depends on what the Rangers are willing to spend on pay roll.
Given what I think our situation is, I’d think no. But if we had an owner who could spend like a video game, I could care less if we were efficient. Sure the Yankees overpay their players, but it doesn’t matter for them.
by philkid3 on Aug 11, 2009 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if we added a Peavy that's coming back for the last month of the season
and a Rios, I’d have to think we’re a can’t miss playoff team that will cause some damage for the first time in franchise history.
It would be nice…
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Aug 10, 2009 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh - signed through 2014 with a 2015 buyout
No thanks. Better ways to spend money (the Rangers don’t have).
Remember Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.
by WyoRanger on Aug 10, 2009 7:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Concur...
between what the ChiSox just picked up with Rios and Peavy that’s a large chunk of payroll.
I think Rios is a good player who’s just having a down year, but I don’t think I would have put in a claim with 5/60 left on his contract. The Peavy move is also a little puzzling to me. I know the latest injury isn’t to his arm, but I have serious doubts that he can stay healthy enough for that move to work out for the ChiSox. We shall see.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 10, 2009 8:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
While the White Sox are spending....
The Rangers should put Michael Young on waivers and see if they bite.
by Darrell McKown on Aug 10, 2009 7:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Please tell me you are being sarcastic
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Aug 10, 2009 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I'm not.
Check back with me in the 2011, 2012 and 2013 when we are still paying him $16 million per season for average hitting and poor defense at 3B.
by Darrell McKown on Aug 10, 2009 8:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Giving Young away for nothing right now
That would mean giving up on the 2009 season, and taking a huge p.r. hit.
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 10, 2009 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and taking a huge p.r. hit.
It’d be catastrophic
by tyd3311 on Aug 10, 2009 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it would
Probably not the right thing to do from an overall perspective.
However, from a pure baseball standpoint, focusing on the years when this team should be really good, it would be the right move.
by Darrell McKown on Aug 10, 2009 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His defense...
hasn’t been very good. However this is still his first year at third and he has already shown signs of improvement in the last month or so. I think he could be average at 3B starting next season.
His hitting may decline from what it has been this year, no doubt. How much remains to be seen. Most of us thought his hitting was already on the decline before this season. Hard to say what he will do in ’11, ’12, and ’13.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 10, 2009 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hard to say what he will do in ’11, ’12, and ’13
That may be right, but it’s a pretty good bet it won’t be worth $48 million.
by Darrell McKown on Aug 10, 2009 8:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It probably won't be...
but that doesn’t mean you just give the guy away who will have seniority on the team by that time, and is seen as the team leader or FOTF or whatever you want to call him. If this team is going to compete the next few years could you imagine what giving up MY would do to the perception of this team? Besides, what great 3B are you replacing him with? That is one of the weakest spots in the farm system, and it’s not like you have the $ to go sign a replacement if you are just giving him away for pure salary relief.
MY is what he is. A good, but not great, player who now has a big contract. I don’t think he’s the problem on this team going forward.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 10, 2009 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well....
If that $16 million in 2011-2013 was used towards, say Roy Halladay, after the 2010 season, I think the perception of the team would probably be okay.
That said, he’s not going anywhere, for a multitude of reasons.
by Darrell McKown on Aug 10, 2009 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of teams win the World Series with some sucky, over-paid, fan-favorite player somewhere.
We’ve got that covered when we win in ’11.
by philkid3 on Aug 11, 2009 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure he is getting put on waivers
this time of year almost everyone gets put on waivers, you can always yank someone back if they get claimed.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
by DJCahill on Aug 11, 2009 6:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We are linking to Twitter as a news source now?
Jeez….
LoneStarBall....You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
by DaheelzCM on Aug 10, 2009 8:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Twitter is a medium
Its a New York sportswriter with a quote from the GM rather its on his blog or on twitter.
That was the initial source, and its obviously true. If you really want me to switch it to ESPN now that they have an article I can do that for ya.
the preceding post was a great success.
by DSheppard on Aug 10, 2009 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There ya go. Woo, now its real.
the preceding post was a great success.
by DSheppard on Aug 10, 2009 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My only problem
When I clicked on the link it just shows the message and the guy’s name. Unless you know who Tyler Kepner is (I don’t) then it just looks like some random guy posting stuff.
LoneStarBall....You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
by DaheelzCM on Aug 10, 2009 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This reminds me of
when the Rangers had to deal ARod in a horrible deal because Hicks needed money and Park wasn’t going anywhere. I think that I’d be ready for a new GM if I’m a Jays fan. Ownership made a serious investment a couple of years ago on his assurance that they could go compete with Boston, etc. He didn’t come through, and how he’s stuck in no man’s land suffering from bad contracts and mediocre drafts and not being able to turn the best tradeable asset in baseball into anything.
by Brett Perryman on Aug 10, 2009 8:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Toronto
After dumping Rios, they really only have one bad contract left. But it’s whopper.
On A-Rod, I don’t think that deal was as Hicks needing money as A-Rod being the jerk that he his and crying his way out of town.
by Darrell McKown on Aug 10, 2009 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I seem to recall the words "financial flexibility" being used an awful lot by Rangers management.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
by rooster on Aug 10, 2009 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That sounds better than....
“A-Rod thought the team sucked and went to the owner and Tom Hicks agreed to trade him to one of two teams for whatever John Hart could get.”
by Darrell McKown on Aug 10, 2009 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to rehash that, but I think that all four of Hart, Buck, ARod and Hicks contributed significantly to getting him out of town. But especially given the way Hicks has behaved as he’s gotten in even worse cash flow issues recently, there is no doubt in my mind that he needed to get out from under some cash quickly, and taking an awful deal for ARod was his easiest (and maybe only) route.
by Brett Perryman on Aug 10, 2009 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Conjecture?
Of course.
That theory is based on nothing. Sources? Links? Research?
Personal opinion…
by Clueless on Aug 11, 2009 1:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hicks
He knew in 2003 that a recession was coming in 2008?
by Darrell McKown on Aug 11, 2009 6:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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