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Analyzing the Marlon Byrd Situation, Part II

Texas Rangers' Marlon Byrd throws his helmet after striking out with two runners on to end the sixth inning of a baseball game against the Los Angeles Angels in Anaheim, Calif., Monday, Sept. 28, 2009. (AP Photo/Chris Pizzello)

More photos » Chris Pizzello - AP

4 months ago: Texas Rangers' Marlon Byrd throws his helmet after striking out with two runners on to end the sixth inning of a baseball game against the Los Angeles Angels in Anaheim, Calif., Monday, Sept. 28, 2009. (AP Photo/Chris Pizzello)

So yesterday, we talked about what Marlon Byrd has done for the Rangers the past three years, and concluded he's been a pretty good player.  The Rangers have gotten much more than their money's worth from Byrd.

And now, Byrd is going to be a free agent after the season, with what appears to be his one (and likely only) chance to cash in with a big, guaranteed, multi-year deal that will set him up for life.

Should the Rangers be the ones to do it?  Or should they thank him for his time and efforts, and wish him well with his new team?

The consensus from the folks who cover the Rangers is that they need to keep Byrd.  Jamey Newberg has mentioned in our podcasts that the Rangers need to bring Byrd back.  Anthony Andro says that the Rangers need to give him a three year deal, if that's what it takes.  Evan Grant has been vocal about the Rangers needing to bring Byrd back. 

But what does that mean?

First of all, I think we need to be realistic about what it is going to take to keep Marlon Byrd in Texas.  I've seen several people say, "We need to bring him back on a one year deal," but I don't think there's any way Byrd signs a one year deal with the Rangers.  Byrd is 32, he's coming off three solid seasons in a row, and he's in the best place he's ever been to command a multi-year deal.

If the Rangers could bring him back on a one-year contract, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  But that's not realistic...it is going to take a three year deal to bag Byrd.

Given the economic situation and the cratering of the market last offseason, it is harder to predict than in the past what Byrd will end up getting on the open market, but my guess is it will be somewhere around $20 million.

If the Rangers sign Byrd to a 3 year, $20 million deal, they are pretty much done for the offseason.  They owe Kevin Millwood $12 million for 2010, Michael Young $16 million for 2010, and Ian Kinsler $4 million for 2010.  Even if they backload the deal so Byrd only makes, say, $5 million in 2010, you've got $37 million committed to those four players.  Add in the money still due to Frank Catalanotto and Vicente Padilla for their 2010 option buyouts, and C.J. Wilson and Frankie Francisco's arbitration cases, and you're getting close to $50 million for six players before you do anything else.

So adding Byrd means no Ben Sheets, no Bobby Abreu, no trades for any player making above the minimum.  Basically, you're talking about bringing this year's team back intact, with no additions.

And what are you getting for 3 years, $20 million from Byrd?  Well, as we discussed yesterday, Byrd was below-average defensively in center this year, above-average defensively in center the year before.  If we split the difference and say he's average defensively in center, and combine that with him hitting about like an average centerfielder this year, you are getting an average major league centerfieler for your money.

But a couple of things to keep in mind...first, Byrd just turned 32.  You are getting his age 32-33-34 seasons if you sign him to three years.  He's not going to be improving during that span.  PECOTA pegs him for about a .260 EQA over the three year period, which is a little below average for a CF, and quite a bit below average for a COF.

Defense?  Ron Washington seems to like Byrd's defense in centerfield.  Of course, Washington liked Ben Broussard, as well.  The reality is that Byrd's 2009 defense in center is probably more indicative of what he's going to do going forward than his 2008 defense, because...well, he's getting older, and that's what players do when they get into their 30s.  They decline. 

The Rangers have indicated that they are committed to having a strong defense in the outfield, and particularly in centerfield...that's why they traded for Josh Hamilton, that's why they drafted Julio Borbon, that's why they liked David Paisano and why Craig Gentry is on the 40 man roster. 

But Byrd doesn't project to be a plus defensive centerfielder -- or, realistically, even an average to above-average defensive centerfielder -- for the next three years.  So what are you going to do?

The easy answer seems to be to plug Julio Borbon into center next year, put Nelson Cruz in right field, let Josh Hamilton and David Murphy and Brandon Boggs split time in left field (with Hamilton getting the bulk of his ABs at DH), and let Byrd go, right?  Clearly, that's a good defensive outfield.

Well, according to Jim Reeves, the Rangers don't think so:

One of the more disappointing discoveries is that manager Ron Washington seems to have absolutely no confidence in rookie Julio Borbon’s defense, which is why we had seen the rookie in center field for only one inning of one game going into this weekend’s final homestand.

Remember, Borbon was once thought to be the guy who would allow the Rangers to move Josh Hamilton out of center, in order to save wear and tear on his body. Now, Borbon seems destined for left field, at best.

Meanwhile, we have also come to realize what a liability Nelson Cruz is in right field as he regularly takes poor angles and routes to fly balls and butchers many others.

I don't agree with Nelson Cruz being a liability in right field, but the manager apparently perceives him to be a liability out there.  And if the manager doesn't trust Borbon in center, all the sudden, the need to bring Marlon Byrd back increases, because you are left with only Josh Hamilton and Craig Gentry as options in center field, right?

Well, maybe.  You've also got Brandon Boggs, who was credited with being an energy guy last season, and who Jon Daniels said at Newberg Night can play center field, but who has had shoulder issues all season in 2009 and thus has been out of the mix.

But do the Rangers really want to go into 2010, expecting to be a playoff contender, with Brandon Boggs as their starting centerfielder? 

I don't think it is a terrible idea, personally...it seems to me that, if you don't think Borbon is ready to play centerfield in 2010, you send him to AAA and let him play center everyday until you deem him ready, and let him come up then, rather than sticking him in left field to start the 2010 season, as some have suggested.

That lets you go with a Boggs/Hamilton combo in center, Cruz in right, Murphy in left.  You still probably want a righty 4C guy who can spell Chris Davis and David Murphy against lefties, but it seems like that grouping would be viable until you decide Borbon and Justin Smoak are ready to come up (and Smoak, you have to figure, will be up sometime in 2010, sooner probably rather than later).

Of course, rolling with Marlon Byrd in center to start the 2010 season, at least until Borbon is ready, is probably preferable.  Byrd is a perfect stop-gap option out there until Borbon moves into centerfield.

But Byrd isn't available as a one-year stop-gap.  He's a three-year option, or he's gone.

And if he's going to be here for three years, what do you do with him over that time?  Do you plan on him playing center through 2012?  In that case, Julio Borbon needs to be dealt this offseason, to a team looking for a speedy centerfielder/leadoff type (and there are only about two dozen teams looking for someone like that).

Do you let him fill in at center until Borbon is ready, then move him to a COF slot?  If so, you probably are looking to move Cruz this offseason, with Hamilton going to right field to start the season, but in that case, by dealing Cruz, you are moving the Rangers best outfielder this season, one of their two or three best positional players, and their best righthanded bat.  For a team that is too lefty-oriented and needs offense, dealing Cruz opens up a pretty big hole.

Still, it wouldn't surprise me to see it happen...Cruz clearly doesn't have the trust of the manager, and the organization, for whatever reason, doesn't appear to have much faith in him.  If the team doesn't see him as a valuable contributor on a playoff contender, then they should move him now, when his value is probably at its highest.  I suspect there will be teams out there that are interested in Cruz, and that would give up value to get him.

The problem is, of course, what are you trying to get in exchange?  Prospects?  For a team that is looking to make the playoffs in 2010, trading one of their best players for prospects is counter-productive.  A bat?  Why would a team trade a bat for another bat?  Pitching?  The rotation already has a bunch of guys vying for spots, and it seems silly to deal Cruz for a bullpen arm.

At one point I thought trading Cruz was something to team should do, that the Rangers should package him with a prospect or two and maybe a young major league arm to try to target a TORP.  And maybe that's what will happen.

But that was before Josh Hamilton and Chris Davis tanked, before the catchers decided not to hit, and before the weak offense derailed the Rangers 2009 playoffs hopes.  That was before I realized the Rangers need more offense, and aren't really in a position to deal bats away.

In any case...if you sign Byrd to a multi-year deal, you seem to be counting on him as a starter for the next three years.  But with Borbon, Hamilton, Murphy, and Cruz all around, plus Davis and Smoak and potentially Max Ramirez in the mix at DH, you are spending big dollars to bring back a guy to fill roles that guys in-house can fill for a lot less money.

As I said yesterday, part of the point of having a strong farm system is so you don't have to pay free agent dollars on the Marlon Byrds of the world.

The counter to that is, well, he's a great clubhouse leader.  He's huge in the clubhouse, and the Rangers can't let him go.

And I have no reason to dispute that.  But even with Byrd, and Michael Young, and Eddie Guardado, and Kevin Millwood, and the other great clubhouse leaders, this team played stupid ball an awful lot this year.  When the Rangers needed a strong homestand to stay in the playoff race, the offense spit the bit and the team went 2-7.  It showed resiliency, but it also showed a tendency to press, to make dumb decisions, and to take a poor approach to the plate.

And Byrd is at the forefront when it comes to poor approach.  Marlon Byrd's swing percentage is barely outside of the top 10 in the majors.  He sees less pitches per plate appearance than almost anyone else in baseball.  When we talk about the Rangers going up and hacking at everything and refusing to work the count, Marlon Byrd is the poster child for that approach.

So it seems contradictory to say that the Rangers, on the one hand, have to improve their approach and have to have better at bats, and then turn around and say that Marlon Byrd -- one of the worst culprits -- has to be back in a Ranger uniform next season.

It also comes down to this...Marlon Byrd, over the next three years, is likely a guy who is a 4th outfielder on a championship contender.  A very good 4th outfielder...but as a centerfielder, he's likely a defensive liability, and as a COF, he's not good enough with the bat to be an every day player. 

And the question you have to ask is, do the Rangers want to commit 3 years, $20 million to a guy who, you expect, is going to be your starting centerfielder for some or all of 2010, and then will go into a 4th outfielder role?

If this team had a $100 million payroll, I'd be fine with that.

For a team with a $60-70 million payroll, it simply isn't feasible.

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Comments

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On defensive OF assignments

It’s pretty disappointing that one of the couple reasons you hired Washington was for his defensive prowess (though his specialty is obviously infield), and then his eyes tell him something different from what reality seems to tell us. If it persists, this needs to be another area where the front office steps in and tells him and Pettis who’s going to play where most of the time (including who isn’t going to bat third). Otherwise, I don’t want Byrd back.

by Brett Perryman on Sep 29, 2009 11:18 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Precisely

And amen to Adam’s analysis. Facts seem to fade behind preferences at the field management level. That’s cool if you are the NYY and buy whomever you want for every position. But it’s not rational for a team that while on the ascent, needs everyday performance.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -

"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce

by Ed Coffin on Sep 29, 2009 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

JD needs to introduce

Ron to sabremetrics.

Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland -Tom Grieve Rangers Minor League Player of the Year
Martin Perez - Nolan Ryan Rangers Minor League Pitcher of the Year

by RangerMad on Sep 29, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

You offer arb and get the sup if Byrd gets Type-B status. Where is the disconnect in the org regarding Borbon? Is it just Wash? Missing on the CF of the future would be a big set back for this org.

What do the BA and BP folks think of Borbon’s defense?

Maybe Wash isn’t really a good talent evaluator.

by mattrpav on Sep 29, 2009 11:21 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Or limited to infield

Mechanics and skills.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -

"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce

by Ed Coffin on Sep 29, 2009 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

His arm is scary weak

but the wheels are so good as to cover it up with good positioning. I think Wash was reticent to run Julio in CF while trying to make the playoffs. Now, that the season is over, I expect Julio to be in center. Hopefully, between this week and ST, Borbon changes Wash’s mind.

When evaluating the season, I think it’s important to realize some real bad luck came into play. Injuries to Young and Hamilton just as the team was about to begin the September chase coupled with the weather during the critical homestand proved too much to overcome. I agree Byrd should be let go. Borbon, Hamilton and Cruz in OF with Murph the 4th.

Your 2009 Snow Monkey Ambassador

by Parman on Sep 29, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps a tiny silver lining of the ownership situation

is that it may prevent the team from committing three years to Byrd. For all the complaining about Washington’s bullpen moves or lineups for any given game, it’s this big picture stuff that should be the main arguing point for those looking to replace him. Valuing Byrd over Cruz or Borbon is simply crazy.

The front office moved Young to 3B last winter, a controversial move that required testicular fortitude. I see them having the testicles to do the right thing again this winter. My worry is in what exactly they perceive that ‘right thing’ to be.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Sep 29, 2009 11:22 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

My worry is in what exactly they perceive that ‘right thing’ to be.

Especially with Cruz.

"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks

by hightowersmith on Sep 29, 2009 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Valuing Byrd over Cruz or Borbon is simply crazy."

This organization’s fascination with the mystical ascendant power of veteran leadership is incredibly disturbing, especially considering the farm system they’ve assembled.

by LiamP on Sep 29, 2009 11:31 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

+1

"I love winning." - rockin_rangers, on May 16, 2009

by ghtd36 on Sep 29, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Veteran leadership

Marlon’s only really been decent when he was 25 and the last three years. What leadership is he providing? The ability to bounce around baseball for a while? If the Rangers value Byrd over Nellie, that’ll be criminally dumb.

Remember Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.

by WyoRanger on Sep 29, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good writeup

The end game is that if Byrd is signed to a 3 yr deal and Wash is the manager the whole then he will play 95% of the games where he is healthy. I could see him putting up a 2010 similar to this yr but what happens in yr 2 and 3 when Byrd is OPSing around .720-.750 and Wash is still hitting him 4th and playing him everyday?

Byrd is a decent player and im sure a good dude but let him capitalize on his last 3 yrs with the Rangers somewhere else.

08/03/2009 A day that will live in infamy for the rest of the AL West.

by Michael Cave on Sep 29, 2009 11:29 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

This is a great paragraph
The counter to that is, well, he’s a great clubhouse leader. He’s huge in the clubhouse, and the Rangers can’t let him go.

And I have no reason to dispute that. But even with Byrd, and Michael Young, and Eddie Guardado, and Kevin Millwood, and the other great clubhouse leaders, this team played stupid ball an awful lot this year. When the Rangers needed a strong homestand to stay in the playoff race, the offense spit the bit and the team went 2-7. It showed resiliency, but it also showed a tendency to press, to make dumb decisions, and to take a poor approach to the plate.

The whole “he’s a great leader” thing is way overblown unless your team can get to the playoffs (at which point, maybe I buy that it is a factor). If this has been leadership and clubhouse charisma, give me Milton Bradley any day.

Go Rice Owls!

by JBImaknee on Sep 29, 2009 11:31 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm not even sure he's a leader

By classical definition. More of a fan on the field IMHO.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -

"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce

by Ed Coffin on Sep 29, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"the offense spit the bit"

That is one fine euphemism right there.

by Basehead on Sep 29, 2009 11:38 AM CDT via mobile reply actions   0 recs

I would have gone with shit the bed, but his point was made.

I thought it be all warm and shitty, but it just tasted like normal beer. It was still cold.

by RA Dickey on Sep 29, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not necessarily in favor of resigning Byrd

But the idea that signing him prohibits any other signings doesn’t really scare me. Sheets isn’t sure if he’ll ever pitch again, LAAA isn’t going to let Abreu walk, and I don’t see a lot of other attractive FA options this offseason.

"You can probably stick a fork in the Rangers' playoff chances for 2009." - AJM on 7/26 with the team 4.5 games out

by tricer on Sep 29, 2009 11:40 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Good point

Although for “risk” signings, I’d keep Sheets at the top of that list.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -

"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce

by Ed Coffin on Sep 29, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with this

AJM just said that trading Nellie for a starter doesn’t make sense because of the people vying for spots. If that’s the case, what we care about Sheets? Not that I want Byrd, just seems like a contradiction.

Remember Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.

by WyoRanger on Sep 29, 2009 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

If we’re going to deal Cruz and keep Byrd, let’s get another SP in return. Who knows what we’re getting from any of our SPs next year? A lot of those guys wildly exceeded expectations this year. Some regression is inevitable.

by JDT217 on Sep 29, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This team needs a TORP

If you could package, say, Cruz, Hunter, and a prospect or two for Ricky Nolasco, that’s one thing.

But you don’t trade Cruz for a Jon Garland-type guy.

by Adam J. Morris on Sep 29, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, but does your dream at least have twins in it??

Any dream worth having needs a set of twins…

The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano

by bking on Sep 29, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thats the only way I consider trading Cruz

Of course if we pick up a TORP we probably still can’t afford Byrd.

What do voluntary mean?

by JKolar on Sep 29, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ricky Nolasco a TORP?

Really?

The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...

by Kinslerhomer on Sep 29, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He has shown flashes

and I don’t think you can argue with his potential. He, also, showed more than potential in ’08 when he put together a great season. I think now would be the perfect time to buy low on a Nolasco

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Sep 29, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

And I still think we should try to rook Sabean.

by JDT217 on Sep 29, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't make that trade

No way is Nolasco that much better than Hunter to be worth losing Cruz plus whatever other prospect(s) you’re giving up.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Sep 29, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well

He’s a lot better than Hunter

The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...

by Kinslerhomer on Sep 29, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nolasco

3.51 FIP 4.14 tRA. Hunter 4.36 FIP 5.07 tRA

The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...

by Kinslerhomer on Sep 29, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stop clouding

these arguments with facts!!

08/03/2009 A day that will live in infamy for the rest of the AL West.

by Michael Cave on Sep 29, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nolasco's K/BB: 4.26

Tommy Hunter’s: 1.91.

Sorry, but I’ll take the guy who K’s four more guys per nine.

by jwiscarson on Sep 29, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

this

HH is that a sock in your puppet or are you happy to see me?

by BigGuns on Sep 29, 2009 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In response to this and Kinslerhomer

I said he isn’t that much better than Hunter to be worth losing Cruz+, not that I think the two are comparable pitchers.

Fangraphs has Cruz as a 3.8 WAR player while Nolasco is at 3.5. That’s not the bottom line with those two, but you are talking about a great SP in the NL East vs. a great COF in the AL West. Its great adding a number 1 or 2 SP, but the need right now is offense and Cruz gives the Rangers that. So again, is Nolasco that huge of an improvement over Tommy Hunter to be worth giving up Cruz+? The only way that deal makes sense is if you think that Cruz’s past 157 Major League games (and 2007 minor league dominance) is a fluke.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Sep 29, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

I was just saying that Nolasco is a lot better than Hunter nothing about the trade proposal.

The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...

by Kinslerhomer on Sep 29, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

okay...

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Sep 29, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're right, sorry.

I saw, “No way is Nolasco that much better than Hunter” and I lost control of myself.

So yeah, I wouldn’t do a Cruz for Nolasco trade straight up, but if we could turn some other prospects into him…

by jwiscarson on Sep 29, 2009 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This Team needs a TORP

Adam – you hit the nail on the head. You make that kind of move to get a TORP. I’m not sure (well, actually I know) I would even take Garland over Hunter (its Adam Eaton redoux).

I agree with 100% of what you have said, paritcularly that we need a RH power bat for the corner OF/DH/1B. Would you rather give Byrd $20MM/3 to be that or say give Vlad $25/3MM to be that. Easy decision for me (even at $30MM/3).

Jack Daddy

by Jack Daddy on Sep 29, 2009 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course...

We’re not giving either of them squat. Which is why we’re not competing next year. 55-60MM payroll = no playoffs.

by JDT217 on Sep 29, 2009 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's absurd..

The payroll this year is around that, and subtract the Blalock $6M and the Padilla money, add back in arb increases. and we’re right around there.

Are you saying this current team can’t make the playoffs next year?

The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano

by bking on Sep 29, 2009 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes.

That is precisely what I am saying.

by JDT217 on Sep 29, 2009 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did the Rangers...

not compete this year?

And that’s with a lot of their bigger salaries going to useless guys like Padilla, Blalock, and Benoit.

Have the Marlins not won 2 WS?

Are the Twins 1 game out right now?

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Sep 29, 2009 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I said they could not make the playoffs...

Not that they couldn’t “compete” however you wish to define it. Can they win 90 games next year? Maybe. If guys like Hunter and Feldman reproduce their efforts from this year. If we replace Byrd’s offensive production (however middling it may have been). If Feliz and Holland take big steps forward. If we aren’t forced to replace Cruz’s offensive production. All big “ifs.” And, even then, are 90 wins likely to get this team into the postseason in the AL? I really doubt it.

by JDT217 on Sep 29, 2009 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Other than Young, who on the 25 man is a likely candidate to regress?

And you can make a persuasive argument that damn near half of that 25 that are good bets to improve.

Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...

Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?

by Brian Thomas on Sep 29, 2009 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You didn't say that they couldn't compete?

would you like to look above at your post again.

We’re not giving either of them squat. Which is why we’re not competing next year. 55-60MM payroll = no playoffs.

And the team could have been in it ‘til the end if not for Hamilton missing so much time and MY’s injury. That’s the hard part. Injuries. Every team has them. No way to predict that before a season. To say this team can’t go to the playoffs because of their payroll is silly. Especially since they are rocking the best farm systems in baseball that is producing a ton of young, cheap talent.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Sep 29, 2009 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you have to let Marlon walk.

It pains me, because I think he’s a good dude. But from a purely baseball standpoint, it’s not realistic to sign a guy like Marlon Byrd — a good-not-great OF who’s due to decline — to a three-year deal, especially when you’ve got enough outfielders already.

Thanks for all your help, Marlon. Now go get that cash, but from someone else.

"I love winning." - rockin_rangers, on May 16, 2009

by ghtd36 on Sep 29, 2009 11:41 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice to see you finally come around on the Cruz trade proposals

I’m not really a fan of Wash’s evaluations of Borbon and Cruz. I’m wondering if he isn’t doing his best to show the team that they need to keep Byrd by saying that Borbon and Cruz aren’t reliable.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Sep 29, 2009 11:46 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

My understanding is ...

that Boggs’ shoulder is pretty trashed and he’s getting off-season surgery. Based on that understanding and my belief that his 2010 performance will suffer from some expected weakness, I’d be willing to be you’d get better big league production next season out of Craig Gentry in CF than Brandon Boggs.

by shroomer on Sep 29, 2009 11:55 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Well done again, AJM

My question is this? Do you think we have to make a move—either in the FA market, or through trade—if we don’t sign Byrd? Do you think we have a realistic shot at competing in 2010 with the same roster, minus Byrd, plus Jules in CF every day and a Murph/Boggs platoon in LF?

by JDT217 on Sep 29, 2009 11:57 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Byrd is a luxury

An average player leaving his prime is a luxury for a midmarket payroll. Byrd would have to be the best clubhouse leader in the history of baseball to make him worth a 3 year 18+ million dollar deal to the Rangers. That being said I do think there is some potential issues in CF next year if Borbon isn’t a CF.

But either roll with inhouse options or sign a glove man for CF for one year.

What do voluntary mean?

by JKolar on Sep 29, 2009 11:57 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

this is true...Byrd is a luxury....

and if you have a dollar store budget you can’t be shopping at Neiman Marcus.

HH is that a sock in your puppet or are you happy to see me?

by BigGuns on Sep 29, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Marlon Matthews Jr.

The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...

by Kinslerhomer on Sep 29, 2009 11:57 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

That's exactly what I was thinking

I just hope the Angels give him a 5-year contract, too.

by chrisR on Sep 29, 2009 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perfect comparision

I thought it be all warm and shitty, but it just tasted like normal beer. It was still cold.

by RA Dickey on Sep 29, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was thinking

the Cubs sign him to a three year deal after they get rid of Milton.

by MikeEl on Sep 29, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice summary AJM...

I’m with you all the way on this one.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Sep 29, 2009 11:59 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Here's my thing - resigning Byrd seems counter to what's the Rangers have been trying to do

Byrd was a stopgap at center until we could develop someone. Now he goes from being a stopgap to a contract into his mid 30s? No thanks.

The other possibility is the franchise thinks 2010 is the year and they need Byrd to put them over the top. But that’s counter to the idea of getting younger and giving yourself as many chances to succeed for several years. If the Rangers sign Byrd to be the highest paid OFer for three years, you damn well know he’s going to start every year regardless of his decreasing D and decreasing offense.

What this really comes down to is Nellie’s going to be better than Byrd. Maybe Nellie’s not some rah-rah guy but he’s pretty good at baseball now and that’s what matters.

If the Rangers have a problem with Borbon’s defense, send him to AAA until he does whatever the hell he’s not doing now and put Josh in CF. If by midseason Borbon hasn’t fixed whatever someone thinks his problem is, look at other options through a trade to move Josh to a COF.

Remember Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.

by WyoRanger on Sep 29, 2009 12:07 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Byrd shouldn't be the difference

between being a contender and not being one. I mean if one average play is that much difference then the team isn’t as good as we were thinking it might be.

What do voluntary mean?

by JKolar on Sep 29, 2009 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fascinating.

Two issues that make this off-season super-fascinating from a player personnel standpoint: (1) the Cruz-Byrd-Murphy conundrum; and (2) Feliz: starter or reliever? Both involve excess inventory and the decisions on how to best strike with that excess (although they both involve more factors than that, obviously).

By the way, as to AJM’s point:

“…it seems to me that, if you don’t think Borbon is ready to play centerfield in 2010, you send him to AAA and let him play center everyday until you deem him ready, and let him come up then, rather than sticking him in left field to start the 2010 season, as some have suggested….”

See what he did there? That’s some crafty lawyering….

by Jamey Newberg on Sep 29, 2009 12:10 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

why not

in a deal for a young TORP

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Sep 29, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because we don't have any catchers who can hit.

Of course, maybe neither can Max—at the major league level.

by JDT217 on Sep 29, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

why is it such a big deal

that we have a catcher that can hit? If the other guys do their jobs I could care less about the catcher’s offensive production. Just as long as he does his job behind the plate. There are what, 3 or 4 catchers in the majors who can hit right now? Why do we have to have one of them?

by MikeEl on Sep 29, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It isn't "can't hit"

We’re fifth to last in the league with an average catcher wOBA of .292. Anaheim is ahead of us at .311. That isn’t even close to being average for the position. We’re about 15 runs below average for the position in the league.

by jwiscarson on Sep 29, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why?

He pretty clearly isn’t the answer to our catching problems. The defense isn’t there and with his wasted season, his bat is still a question mark.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Sep 29, 2009 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

All those things you just pointed out

are why I think we won’t deal him. Now that he his prospect status has fallen as much as it has, why would a team give up a top player for him. There was a time he might bring a big return, that time was 12-18 months ago.

The Rangers have rolled up the welcome mat and bludgeoned the Angels with it. - Josh Lewin

by uthornfan on Sep 29, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

His bat is a question mark?

Really?

Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...

Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?

by Brian Thomas on Sep 29, 2009 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Considering

his performance in AAA and MLB, I’m not sure how you could say it isn’t a question mark.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Sep 29, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So, the whole having a dicked-up wrist all year thing?

That doesn’t mitigate it any for you?

Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...

Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?

by Brian Thomas on Sep 29, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does having a dicked up wrist

make him more or less of a risk for future performance? I know he wasn’t hitting AAA last year without the dicked up wrist.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Sep 29, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In 40 measly ABs

Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...

Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?

by Brian Thomas on Sep 29, 2009 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wasn't a dicked up wrist

one of the injuries that turned Travis Hafner from a monster to a guy who isn’t much better than Andruw Jones?

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Sep 29, 2009 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No - that would be lack of juice

Not apple or orange.

Remember Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.

by WyoRanger on Sep 30, 2009 2:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He did have his good years

after they initiated juice testing.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Sep 30, 2009 5:41 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Before his wrist problems anyway.

The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...

by Kinslerhomer on Sep 29, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not as a centerpiece, of course.

But neither was Murph from the Boston’s.

by Jamey Newberg on Sep 29, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you really see any upside to keeping Feliz in the pen?

That would seem to me to be a most egregious blunder.

Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...

Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?

by Brian Thomas on Sep 29, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see upside

in a limiting total innings sense. I’d like to see him in the bullpen for a couple months, then sent down to the minors to stretch out for a start or 2, then try to get around 140-150 IP for the year.

I’d definitely rather not see him pitch 200 IP next year.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Sep 29, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, of course

but my impression is that Jamey was alluding to the camp that thinks that somehow Feliz can be more valuable in the pen long term.

Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...

Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?

by Brian Thomas on Sep 29, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cain

3.92 FIP and a 4.45 tRA. It’s fun to pitch in that ballpark and in the NL.

The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...

by Kinslerhomer on Sep 29, 2009 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No joke.

His HR/FB is 8.5%, and averages at 6.9%. Hello major regression.

by jwiscarson on Sep 29, 2009 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, yes, but current Cain

+ Maddux-taught cut FB = … DYNASTY!

by JDT217 on Sep 29, 2009 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cain

Lower strike out rate than Nolasco, walks more guys, gives up teh same rate of fly balls.

by Adam J. Morris on Sep 29, 2009 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sabean will deal Cain

Can the same be said for Ricky?

by JDT217 on Sep 29, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nolasco and Johnson

are both getting long-term extensions.

by JDT217 on Sep 29, 2009 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Come on.

Their payroll was 36mm last year and Hanley accounts for 20% of that. I’ve heard rumblings about a Johnson extension (which makes sense given how good he is) but nothing about Nolasco. They have West, Volstad, Sanchez and Miller who’ll all be much cheaper than Nolasco (extension or not)…you can’t really think they’d extend both.

by LiamP on Sep 29, 2009 1:12 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

New Ballpark in 2012

New blood in the FO. Signs point to the Marlins moving away from the firesale philosophy and actually building a core.

by JDT217 on Sep 29, 2009 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dan Uggla would disagree.

I’ll believe that noise when I see it.

by LiamP on Sep 29, 2009 1:25 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

I think that just means

they keep doing what they’ve been doing and try to collect larger profits.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Sep 29, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

New blood in the FO?

I didn’t know they got a new owner

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Sep 29, 2009 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I probably should have put...

…“put him in left field to start the 2010 season,” which is what Reeves appears to be suggesting (and which I was playing off of there).

by Adam J. Morris on Sep 29, 2009 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The only problem I see with him in AAA is simple

We need his top of the order bat.

What do voluntary mean?

by JKolar on Sep 29, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

why is everyone convinced

Borbon won’t have his struggles offensively next year? Most second year players do…

by MikeEl on Sep 29, 2009 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He will

and if Ron were smart he would have Andrus leadoff vs LHP and Borbon bat 9th.

Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland -Tom Grieve Rangers Minor League Player of the Year
Martin Perez - Nolan Ryan Rangers Minor League Pitcher of the Year

by RangerMad on Sep 29, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Most?

That’s a pretty broad and unsupported statement you just made. I’m not saying Borbon won’t struggle, I’m sure he will at times, but do you have evidence that most 2nd year players struggle?

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Sep 29, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was going to ask the same thing

Just because it has a name (sophmore slump) doesn’t mean it’s a fact. I’m sure some do better and some do worse, basically like every other baseball player.

Remember Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.

by WyoRanger on Sep 29, 2009 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok maybe not most

but it does happen often enough that there’s a name for it. I just don’t get why everyone assumes Borbon will be immune to slumps and will magically fix everything wrong with the leadoff position…

by MikeEl on Sep 29, 2009 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your two fascinating issues are non issues.

(1) There is no Cruz-Byrd-Murphy conundrum; there is only a Borbon conundrum. If Borbon is your CF of the future, there is no reason at all to bring back Byrd. None.

(2) Is anyone seriously advocating that Feliz stay in the bullpen in 2010?

by cstorm15 on Sep 29, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excuse me?

There is no reason to go into 2010 with both Byrd and Borbon on the roster, and the decision to resign Byrd hinges solely on the team’s evaluation of Borbon. If Borbon is not your CF of the future, you might as well trade him at peak value and then consider resigning Byrd.

Do you understand now?

by cstorm15 on Sep 29, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

(2) Sadly the answer is yes.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Sep 29, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

to #2

there is no way Feliz should stay in the ’pen. It would drive me crazier than if Borbon is our opening day DH next year.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Sep 29, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Feliz should definitely start at some point next year, but...

It shouldn’t be more than 12-15 starts, and we should temper our expectations quite a bit.

by JDT217 on Sep 29, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How did you come up

with 12-15 starts?

Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland -Tom Grieve Rangers Minor League Player of the Year
Martin Perez - Nolan Ryan Rangers Minor League Pitcher of the Year

by RangerMad on Sep 29, 2009 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Probably a ballpark on innings pitched.

He pitched around 125 innings in 2008, and he’ll be close-ish to that this year. If you assume he goes six innings per start at 15 starts and throw in half a season of relief appearances (40-50 IP?), that puts Feliz close to 140 innings for the year.

I don’t think that’s wholly unreasonable for him considering his workload this year.

by jwiscarson on Sep 29, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Though I think the other 50IP

Should come as a starter in AAA.

by JDT217 on Sep 29, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

no kidding

Feliz should start the entire year. If he gets tired, then maybe you baby him. People act like innings in relief just don’t wear on your arm like in the rotation.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Sep 29, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think that's it.

A reliever’s generally going to pitch half as many innings as a starter over the course of a season, so I think it’s a useful tool to get him experience facing major-league-level hitting without tiring his arm out completely.

I don’t think about relief appearances affecting a pitcher’s arm differently than starting appearances at all.

by jwiscarson on Sep 29, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

half as many innings at usually a higher effort

starters don’t exert 100% so as they can make it deeper into the game. Relievers go 100% all the time.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Sep 29, 2009 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

C'mon

Do we really need a study to feel safe in saying that short relievers throw most every pitch at max effort and starters don’t?

We’re still allowed to use common sense, aren’t we?

"You can probably stick a fork in the Rangers' playoff chances for 2009." - AJM on 7/26 with the team 4.5 games out

by tricer on Sep 29, 2009 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, except how IP has been used as a wear-and-tear metric for quite a while.

And unequivocally saying that all relievers throw all pitches at max effort is ridiculous. Nobody ever changes speeds on a fastball? Good god.

by jwiscarson on Sep 29, 2009 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

do you have any studies or evidence to back up those statements?

"You can probably stick a fork in the Rangers' playoff chances for 2009." - AJM on 7/26 with the team 4.5 games out

by tricer on Sep 29, 2009 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I do.

Every game where a reliever throws less than his maximum recorded velocity for a particular pitch type on every pitch.

Your assumption presumes that every reliever in the majors is a flamethrower, that velocity is always a positive performance contributor, and that control is irrelevant.

by jwiscarson on Sep 30, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

your assumption seems to be that max effort = max velocity, and I don’t know that to be the case.

"You can probably stick a fork in the Rangers' playoff chances for 2009." - AJM on 7/26 with the team 4.5 games out

by tricer on Sep 30, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How else would you measure it?

I mean, we have quotes from Feliz this year talking about how he tunes his fastball up and down, saying that he doesn’t need to throw 100 every time out to get hitters out.

If you’re maintaining the same velocity difference on a changeup and a fastball, but both pitches are slower, then you logically have to be exerting less effort. I suppose you could exert the same amount of effort, but in an inefficient manner, but that would require a change in pitching mechanics.

by jwiscarson on Sep 30, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I kind of

like the way the Rays managed Price this yr. Start slowly and then ramp him up. So basically the complete opposite of Joba

08/03/2009 A day that will live in infamy for the rest of the AL West.

by Michael Cave on Sep 29, 2009 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

12-15 or similar

I don’t know if 15 games started is the answer, but it’s a no brainer to me to start Feliz in the bullpen and move him to a starter later in the season.

Going from 125 IP to 200 IP would be foolish. He cannot start the full year so throwing bullpen for a while makes complete sense. 12, 15, 18ish games started.

by gr7070 on Sep 29, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why not like Porcello?

I agree he needs to have <150 REGULAR season innings. Bullpen in the Spring is one way (though you waste 3-4 weeks mid year stretching him out and you monkey with his arm). Why not do what the Tigers did with Porcello and protect him early? 5th start, skip him occasionally or push him back 2-3 days, severely watch his innings (like they did with Feldman), etc.

I think that is my preference. Otherwise, they fall in love with him in pend AND they expose a huge hole there when they ultimately pull him out. No sir – don’t even go there.

Jack Daddy

by Jack Daddy on Sep 29, 2009 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am not sure the FO

shares Ron Washington’s views on Byrd, Borbon and Cruz. Is Borbon playing winter ball? It would be nice if he could work with Pettis this winter on his defense.

Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland -Tom Grieve Rangers Minor League Player of the Year
Martin Perez - Nolan Ryan Rangers Minor League Pitcher of the Year

by RangerMad on Sep 29, 2009 12:17 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

our farm system will likely be in the top 5 for the 2nd year in a row

you said it best

…part of the point of having a strong farm system is so you don’t have to pay free agent dollars on the Marlon Byrds of the world.

i just hope our front office understands WHY they’ve built the farm system. It is so you can compete year in and year out by letting players go get more money elsewhere and you can fill the spot from within. In an area where your farm system is weak, then maybe, you fill in those spots through free agency or a trade, but not by signing overpriced players on the decline that will take ABs away from your young potential stars, or signing those players will cause you to trade away better players…ie Cruz because the manager has personal favorites that aren’t based on performance, but based on a “gut” feeling.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Sep 29, 2009 12:19 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Byrd aside, I think the Ranger outfield...

sets up this off season to trade either Nellie Cruz or Josh Hamilton. I don’t think there is room for both long term. Josh can’t stay healthy and Nellie is not a Wash fav. One is gonna go, I think.

by stltxfan on Sep 29, 2009 12:21 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Exactly, talk about selling low.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Sep 29, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not that: this guy is the second coming of Christ, haven't you heard?

What are we to do with the mountains of jerseys and books we have tattooed with this guy’s image on him if we deal him?

Nonsense.

by oc on Sep 29, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why with Byrd aside

Cruz and Hamilton should stay for the reason that you mentioned. Hamilton cannot be counted on to stay healthy. That would mean without Cruz, Hamilton on the DL, and Byrd gone, you’re looking at an OF of Boggs, Murphy and Borbon. You need Cruz and Hamilton, or you need to sign another player that would make up for trading Cruz, but would that player give you production at the value of what Cruz gives you? The answer is a simple, no.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Sep 29, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder if Mike Cameron will be a fallback option should Byrd be too expensive.

JD can force Wash’s hands with a non-move this offseason, or he can really believe his manager and have Byrd as plan A and good defensive outfielder as plan B.

I don’t really see the point of bringing back Byrd, unless Cruz is traded, which would probably bring back a player that would get the money Byrd would be offered. If a trade of Cruz doesn’t bring back such a player, I don’t see the point in trading him. If a trade of Cruz takes up the cash for Byrd, maybe JD gets Cameron to keep his manager comfortable with his team?

Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D

by rooster on Sep 29, 2009 12:43 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Cameron on a 1 year wouldn't be too bad

decent defense. marginal bat. Probably a downgrade from Byrd, but not a huge one. Though before long one would expect Cameron to have a big fall off.

What do voluntary mean?

by JKolar on Sep 29, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cameron's not a bad idea

but he won’t be cheap for a year. $8-10M???

by gr7070 on Sep 29, 2009 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A bunch of great points.

The subtitle of this post for me is, why Ron Washington frustrates the crap out of me. 1. Why no faith in Borbon’s Defense? He looks pretty good to me. 2. Why no faith in Cruz’s Defense? He looks pretty good to me. 3. Why sit your best bat (Cruz) when your offense is slumping? 4. Why keep playing Andruw Jones when he sux and you’re trying to answer questions about next year? AJM’s point about Byrd offering veteran leadership is EXCELLENT. The Rangers had a great year and the veterans deserve some credit for that, but they also folded when the playoff push was on, which is what the veterans are supposed to help with.

by jcAustin on Sep 29, 2009 1:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Our hope has to be that Jon Daniels

puts his foot down and demands that Julio Borbon play in CF.

"Thank God for Feldman." - Ron Washington to Eric Nadel, August 2008

by kentbenfer on Sep 29, 2009 1:18 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Is

Julio Borbon really a CF? Right now he is a 15.1 UZR/150 LF, and I know its small sample size, but I can see why RW is not enamored with him playing everyday in CF. He looks fairly bad for an OF out there. The only thing he seems to have going for him is closing speed, which helps, but doesn’t offset his fairly terrible pickups of the ball leaving the bat.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Sep 29, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That should be

-15.1 UZR/150

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Sep 29, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The joys of the small sample size

Not sure if Borbon is a good or bad OF yet, but expanding 15 games to 150 is bound to exaggerate a good outting or a bad outting.

What do voluntary mean?

by JKolar on Sep 29, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But all RW has seen

is that sample, and it is understandable to me why Washington is in no hurry to move him to CF.

However, now that the Rangers are eliminated, they probably should burn the remaining games with Borbon out there.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Sep 29, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

this is the time to put Borbon in CF and see what he can do. Byrd is a known quantity one way or the other.

What do voluntary mean?

by JKolar on Sep 29, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...

I don’t think UZR has great predictive capabilities because the sample size is absurd, and because it weighs against an average rather than a baseline like replacement level.

That really, really irritates me about UZR.

by jwiscarson on Sep 29, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

apples and oranges, but

by that kind of logic Holland should go to the bullpen. Stick Borbon in CF, let him take his licks and learn.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Sep 29, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ron said Borbon will

get some time in CF whenever the Rangers are eliminated from the playoffs.

Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland -Tom Grieve Rangers Minor League Player of the Year
Martin Perez - Nolan Ryan Rangers Minor League Pitcher of the Year

by RangerMad on Sep 29, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The reason I can see

them interested in Byrd is because we don’t have 3 solid other OFs. I’m not sure we have 2.

I personally have faith in Cruz, even if Wash doesn’t.
Right now Borbon looks pretty bad to me defensively, and doesn’t seem to pick the ball up off the bat very well and has as bad of an arm as we have seen in RBiA, on par with Cat’s.
Hamilton is an injury issue, and we may have to consider moving him to DH.
Murphy is a fairly good 4th OF, or a decent platoon COF, but I’d hate to see him as our every day guy.

It’s pretty clear to me that this team needs a bat, and a bat that can play OF (preferably CF) or 1B. Byrd has been an 800+ OPS guy for his time here, and can fill the CF position. I haven’t looked through all the FAs, but I don’t think the list of better options is super long. The question is how many years and how much does he want? For 3/18, I’d probably sign him. For 3/30, I’d probably give him a pass. I definitely wouldn’t go longer than 3 years.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Sep 29, 2009 1:35 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The amazing thing is...

…that the majority of us here can see that it is folly to sign Marlon to a multi-year deal but someone like Wash (supposedly) thinks otherwise.

Of course he is probably thinking more year-to-year (maybe even month-to-month?) than we are but that only shows why is input should be weighted very little by the FO.

I have no objection to man walking on the moon.

by Chad Crudup on Sep 29, 2009 1:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

seems simple to me

put Borbon in center, Cruz in right, let Byrd walk, and if Wash doesn’t like it, too bad, he’ll adapt.

by tangiers on Sep 29, 2009 3:03 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

So simple a caveman can do it? Maybe...

…but probably not simple enough for the ol’ gut to get a handle on.

I have no objection to man walking on the moon.

by Chad Crudup on Sep 29, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

I think Borbon can improve in center if given the chance and I think he is an absolute MUST as the leadoff hitter. The pressure on the basepaths that he and Andrus can apply hitting 1-2 right out of the box reminds me of the Marlins World Series winning team with Pierre and Castillo batting 1-2. They terrorized Boston all series long and if they can do that for us for the next 10 seasons with all the hitting behind them, we should be just fine. Thank Byrd a ton for all he has done and wish him well, but say goodbye no doubt about it.

by jefe6801 on Sep 29, 2009 3:08 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Boston?

They played the Yankees in the 2003 World Series.

by mgb5 on Sep 29, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Probably means

that Boston series in Arlington which had the game with 8 SBs.

Remember to retire Fin's number, Mark.

by jonthefon on Sep 29, 2009 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

hicks question

does anyone know what exactly Hicks financial situation is? i know he’s close to being ass broke, but how did it happen, and did the dude really take out a loan against the ballpark?

by sdson on Sep 29, 2009 3:35 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm usually not one for flaming newcomers, but...

Seriously? There’s a front-page post about this from 28 hours ago.

What the hell?

by jwiscarson on Sep 29, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Answers

No one knows his “exact” financial situation but it isn’t great (or more accurately, HSG)
He isn’t broke.
He overleveraged himself. He took a hit just like the rest of us; difference is, he had more loans out there and now he needs to liquidate some assets.
He didn’t take a loan against the ballpark because he can’t. Neither he nor HSG owns the park. He was extended basically a line of credit by MLB.

Remember Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.

by WyoRanger on Sep 29, 2009 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and there's a lot of information on this site re: Hicks if you use the search engine

Remember Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.

by WyoRanger on Sep 29, 2009 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hicks. Is. Not. Broke.

He’s an illiquid billionaire.

by JDT217 on Sep 29, 2009 3:50 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I doubt

he could produce a billion cash if he had to.

He’s probably still a multi-hundred millionaire though.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Sep 29, 2009 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Byrds demands for a multi year deal hinders this clubs chances to make any other moves,

because they are tied up financially. No way will byrd be signed. This team has wised up the last 2-4 years and I just can’t see JD, or Nolan for that matter, making this deal happen.

Cruz won’t be traded.

Maybe Borbon. He looked good and teams saw that this year. Selling high on him is a possibility. Sorta like the Volquez/Hammy trade. Each team sold high. So would a Borbon be possible as a headliner to a better trade that brings a cheap controllable player in? Eddie V’s stock wasn’t that high at the time of the trade. He looked good at times but was terrible more often than not and teams had to have seen that. Cincy had to have seen that. They took a chance. Now will someone take a chance on a rookie, top of the order, centerfielder that has looked good since being called up? Simple answer is yes.

The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ

by NYTXFAN on Sep 29, 2009 4:26 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

To add to this,

will someone trade a major league ready prospect back? It would have to benefit us and fill a need and make us better or I just don’t see the need to trade him at all.

What’s wrong with a possible Abreu, Hammy/Borbon, Cruz outfield? Can and would Bobby play Left at all.

The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ

by NYTXFAN on Sep 29, 2009 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else

but I might have missed it:

WHAT DO WE EXPECT TO GET FROM LETTING BYRD WALK? What is the compensation we expect? Type B?

I agree with this post almost in entirety. The problem is, management has to decide if the cheaper “in-house” options are worth counting on by letting Byrd and others go while trying to vie for a championship at the same time. If you can’t count on Borbon, Boggs, etc. to fill in the slots, what good are they for this franchise period? Same with Cruz. Clearly one of our top 4 hitters, if not the top hitter this year (behind Mike?), and a very talented defender that may not be perfect out there, if we can’t count on him helping this franchise win a championship, what good is he on this team without confidence?

"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"

by Walter Sobchak on Sep 29, 2009 4:56 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Elsewhere on this site

there is a link to a page that lists what every possible FA is projected to be by someone who has reverse engineered the list.

Byrd was a B.
Pudge was a B, almost an A.
Blalock was unranked.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Sep 29, 2009 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't Hack get brownie points

for winning the war?

"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.

by Rodney on Sep 29, 2009 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Byrd is a good player.

He’s not a great player, though, and that’s the only type of player I’d be interested in signing to that kind of money at that age. Byrd’s an easy guy to root for and I always will have his back unless he goes to the cocksuckers. Or Angels, I mean.

by Black Francis on Sep 29, 2009 5:30 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Great writeup AJM.

This issue, in my opinion, might be where this organization will prove if they’re really capable of making the right decisions to keep this club moving forward. Despite the rough financial waters they’re in now they’ve got a chance here to build on an excellent season and add peices that might make the Rangers a truly legit threat to take the AL West next year if we play our cards right this winter.

But if they shoot their offseason in the foot (and worse, trade off one of the org’s best players at the same time) while blindly following the desires of their crappy “baseball man” manager who has himself proven repeatedly that he’s blinded by his personal preferences and love for gritty veterans when it comes to player evaluation, they’ll be undoing a lot of my faith in the front office and who they listen to before making their decisions.

Hank is 7 runs below a zombie replacement at first base. Do you realize how terrible that is? Zombie’s can’t think, they’re slow, and they’re often ejected from the game for eating opposing baserunners’ brains. - Ben quantifies Hank Blalock

by lonestarJon on Sep 29, 2009 7:08 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

There is a way to use Byrd as a stopgap

Maybe someone mentioned it above, but I didn’t see it. Assuming you think Borbon is the future CF, but don’t think he’ll be ready until 2011, you can still have Byrd in CF until then. Sign Byrd to a 3/20 deal (or whatever it takes if reasonable) and then trade him after 1 year. He’s not the type of player who can demand a no-trade clause. You run the risk that he totally sucks and becomes untradable, but that is not likely given his track record the last couple of years.

"What ... 92 miles per hour?" Feldman scoffed. "That's not gas. Feliz throws gas."

by NorCalRangersFan on Sep 29, 2009 7:43 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

that is a good point that hasn't been brought up

If Byrd has a year similar to this one, and he’s signed for a couple years past that at say 6-7M, then he should be tradable.

"You can probably stick a fork in the Rangers' playoff chances for 2009." - AJM on 7/26 with the team 4.5 games out

by tricer on Sep 29, 2009 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

but what kind of message does that send to a team that is on the cusp of contending?

Signing a player that is viewed as a leader and then trade him away? Just can’t see that happening. Only bad would come from that whole fiasco.

The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ

by NYTXFAN on Sep 29, 2009 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ideally,

You win the WS next year and can now afford to keep Byrd around or can afford to trade him without a fan revolt.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Sep 29, 2009 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What happens if Byrd tanks next year

and we’ve signed him to a 3/20 deal. Before you say thats not likely to happen, I agree but it is a possibility for a player in Byrd’s age group.

What do voluntary mean?

by JKolar on Sep 29, 2009 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let me ask this...

to those LSBers who want Marlon back.

Would you rather have Byrd back at 3/18-20 or sign Bobby Abreu to a one year deal at 9 mil? Given the financial situation of the team you can only do one (if that).

After watching the offense this year I know which one I would like.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Sep 29, 2009 11:25 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I doubt Abreu takes a one year deal

The only reason he got one this winter was the economy tanked and alot of people were caught offguard. But the season hes had will get him a multi year deal. Maybe only 2 years but he wont only take a 1 year deal unless its for about 11+ million

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Sep 30, 2009 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder sometimes if the people on these blogs ever look at the stats. Since Murphys awful start he has been one of the best hitters on the team. His OBP and his OPS have been better than Byrds. He also has a much better arm than Byrd does.
I really think nobody takes a good look at Murphy because last year he was in Hamiltons shadow and this year its Byrd. Go look up the stats.

by txmemaw17 on Sep 30, 2009 9:19 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I've looked at the stats.

and I still don’t want to see Murphy as an everyday player. Byrd has a big advantage over Murphy because Byrd can be an everyday CF, and Murphy can’t.

Murphy also can’t hit lefties.
Vs RHP .287/.364/.490 OPS .854
Vs LHP .237/.278/.361 OPS .639

Murphy also slumped in August, hitting a pathetic .225/.268/.427, so it wasn’t just a bad start dragging his stats down. His bad start and Bad August are just the other side of the same coin that gave him a strong Sept and June.

Murphy is what he is. A good platoon OF, or a good 4th OF. An everyday OF? Not so much.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Sep 30, 2009 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Byrds Stats

LHP 294/456/244 OPS 750
RHP 339/488/296 OPS 827

His stats dont look that good against LHP and he is right handed so should do better.

And by the way Byrd would not be playing center field everyday if RW wasnt the manager .

by txmemaw17 on Sep 30, 2009 10:23 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Most defensive stats

have Byrd as rougly league average defensively. Thats more than we can say about any of our other options.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Sep 30, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Go look at Cruz's splits

Talk about weird

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Sep 30, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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