Holland v. Feliz
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 3, 2009 10:30 AM CDT
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PrintIf you could only pick one player for the Rangers to keep, Derek Holland or Neftali Feliz, who would you pick?
Why?
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Feliz
Because while DHoll makes me weak in the knees, Feliz makes twist about in an orgasmic euphoria.
by red shoe ranger on Sep 3, 2009 10:32 AM CDT reply actions
You're an ass AJM...
you can’t make us choose between them. It’s like asking which one of your kids you like more. I refuse to vote.
Feliz.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
What?
No poll attached. I would go with Feliz.
by GregoryM on Sep 3, 2009 10:33 AM CDT reply actions
Yeah
I didn’t want a poll, more to prompt discussion.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 3, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't want
to play this game.
I don’t even like to think of not having both.
You just don't sit in a rocking chair, when you've built a revolution.
by Escher on Sep 3, 2009 10:33 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Feliz has convinced me he could start with his variety of pitches
and effectiveness when not throwing 100.
So feliz. Dutch will be good though.
the preceding post was a great success.
Feliz has convinced me he could start with his variety of pitches
This is what the question is really about. Are you convinced about Feliz based on a smaller sample, and do you think his bullpen audition actually proves him as a starter, too?
"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks
by hightowersmith on Sep 3, 2009 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Yep...
It’s the offspeed stuff that Feliz has showcased that would make me choose him right now. I just hope he’s able to continue to locate his pitches as well as he has so far. His location and secondary pitches are far better than advertised so far. SSS be damned.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Yeah
Here is the thing about sample sizes. They matter when trying to distinguish two things that are close, or understand an expected outcome from noisy data. When a sample is so obviously different from all the others, it doesn’t take much to determine that it is significant.
Feliz’s level of dominance is just stupid. Even in a very noisy world like baseball pitching, your average guy doesn’t get 26Ks in 19 innings with one walk and only one run allowed. By any reasonable statistic measure, regardless of the noise in the system and sample sizes, Neftali Feliz has been the best pitcher in a Rangers uniform this year.
The question I think we should be asking is how likely Holland is to gain consistency. Can we expect Holland to get to a point where Feliz’s obvious advantage right now may just be an issue of sample size. I don’t know. But I do know that I haven’t seen any pitcher wearing a Rangers uniform control the game like I’ve seen Feliz…
Go Rice Owls!
The only concern I would have is a comp with David Price.
Price owned the world last year when he came up with his power arsenal. He’s struggled as a starter with his command.
It’s really Feliz’s command in this brief stint that has opened my eyes. He throws his fastball with an intended location, and it gets pretty close. I’m also really amazed with how well he places that curveball on the outer half against RHP. If he doesn’t lose that ability with fatigue later in the game, I think that gives us reason to believe Feliz’s transition to a SP will be much smoother than Price’s.
Perhaps, LHB will be the undoing of his transition. LHB did hit him better in the minors this year, though last year the opposite was true. The fangraphs plot really didn’t show a consistent approach against LHB, or an ability to locate his changeup against them.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
I haven't seen Price enough to know, but how do you compare the breaking/offspeed stuff?
Feliz is showing an 80 fastball and plus abilities with his breaking AND offspeed stuff, and he’s relatively inexperienced throwing both.
I think Feliz’s ceiling is higher than Price too, from what I’ve read. Price was the clear-cut top pick in that draft, but he wasn’t a Prior/Strasburg-type talent.
"You dont know much do you, Big Steve?"
--Finnerty.Fan on Aug 13, 2009 5:13 PM PDT
I don't have an answer either. I know only what I saw of Price's slider during the playoffs last year.
It looks devastating. He has thrown his fastball 72% and slider 20% of the time; he’s basically a two-pitch pitcher. But, according to fangraphs, his slider is not all that effective, giving him 2.39 runs BELOW average per 100 sliders thrown.
I don’t know if his problems with his slider, which looks great, stems from command or the quality of his pitch.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
Interesting stuff, thanks
I seem to recall that there is some concern about him being a two-pitch pitcher. Having just two pitches is not a barrier to a good major league career by any means, but Holland exhibiting three good pitches is a much better indicator of success.
"You dont know much do you, Big Steve?"
--Finnerty.Fan on Aug 13, 2009 5:13 PM PDT
Interesting note
ESPN did a ministory about this and he stopped throwing the slider in his last couple of starts…instead he was throwing the change
Fuck Mike Estabrook
Feliz
obviously the reports of weak secondary stuff were wrong.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
This makes Sophie's Choice seem like...
…choosing between an orgasm and a sharp stick in the eye.
I have no objection to man walking on the moon.
by Chad Crudup on Sep 3, 2009 10:35 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
fail on my part for missing this before I posted
Must kill Moe. Weeeeeeeee
by Baseball North on Sep 3, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions
this looks like a TAAS prompt
remember to use first, furthermore, and finally in your body paragraphs, guys.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
Nice, always enjoy a good TAAS test reference
"You dont know much do you, Big Steve?"
--Finnerty.Fan on Aug 13, 2009 5:13 PM PDT
Feliz.
"Stats are like a woman in a fine little bikini. You can see a lot, but you can't see everything." -Dirk A. Tron
Holland
Only cause he’s left handed and projects as a starter better probably. But I would write Feliz love letters everyday letting him know how much I missed him.
I don't have to pick one
We have both and we’re going to enjoy watching both these young stud pitchers for the next few years. SO glad that they didn’t trade for Halladay!!
+1
We don’t have to pick so why should we? Let’s play a more realistic game like, which crappy veteran would you rather bring back, Guardado or Blalock?
"When you play happy, good things will happen"-Elvis Andrus
I'll play
Blalock, by far. But at a significanly reduced salary.
by Mark from OC on Sep 3, 2009 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions
I would shoot myself so I wouldn't have to watch 1 of them perform elsewhere.
"We have a better chance to win with other guys in the lineup," said Blalock, who is hitting .190 the past 30 games. "That’s something I’ve got to deal with."
Feliz.
Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100. - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
by Cecilio's Guante on Sep 3, 2009 10:41 AM CDT reply actions
Would like to keep them both, BUT
if i had to choose it would be Feliz as i think he has more pure talent
Larry Parrish Was Da Man!
Holland
"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks
Holland has a little less fastball, but more experience executing secondary pitches.
If you’re picking Feliz it’s based on his execution of secondary pitches over a smaller sample.
That said, if Feliz can do as a starter what he’s done as a bullpen arm he’s the guy.
I just think Holland grades out as the better starter prospect.
"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks
by hightowersmith on Sep 3, 2009 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Highly touted
for his fastball alone, though.
Was he throwing the pitches he throws as a MLer in Clinton? Was he throwing them in Frisco, even?
"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks
by hightowersmith on Sep 3, 2009 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
False.
He was also highly touted for an effortless release, location and belief to have the pitching talent to learn secondary pitches. Keith Law called his change up a plus well before he reached the Majors.
If he was a one-pitch wonder and that’s all that people liked about him, he wouldn’t have been a top 10 prospect in BA.
He was also highly touted for an effortless release, location and belief to have the pitching talent to learn secondary pitches.
Lack of effort and solid location are promising but say nothing about his arsenal. The change might have been in progress in Clinton, but my impression from seeing his Frisco and OKC starts charted is he leaned heavily on the heater until close to his promotion.
His ML performance is superhuman, but empirically speaking we don’t know if it will play in a starter’s role.
"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks
by hightowersmith on Sep 3, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Correct.
But the point is still: it’s not like him being ahead of Holland is a new thing. He was there on most respected lists before the season, as well.
Yep
Also I remember him only getting to the 5th inning in a bunch of minors starts due to high pitch count. Holland was constantly getting into the 6th/7th. Much ado about nothing probably but still.
I think Luke French has a lot of potential. TORP potential.-Dstar
I think the point is not that the obvious answer is Feliz.
It’s that reasons to pick Feliz pre-date the small sample size in the Majors this year.
That's not true
I ran a 49 second 1/4 mile in HS and top runners in the country ran 46 seconds. You can say I’m only 3 seconds behind but that 3 seconds is an eternity.
The same as the fastball
A 96-97 FB is only 4 MPH from a 100-101 but that 4 MPH is a HUUUUUUGE difference.
If Feliz has good command of his secondary pitches while being able to pitch triple digits at ease. That’s not an all-star player, that’s a FREAK. Some that can throw that hard, have good command, and knows how to pitch comes around once in ever 30-40 years.
How many lefties do you know
that can reach 97 with their fastball?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
CJ
and a bunch of Rangers fans are willing to just give him away for nothing.
"we’re a bunch of knee-jerking yahoos who like new and shiny things." -- FirebatM3 July 10, 2009
Let me restate that for you
How many left handed starting pitchers do you know that can reach 97 with their fastball.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
How many righties do you know
who can reach 102?
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
Holland because he's white
I think Luke French has a lot of potential. TORP potential.-Dstar
by sprite on Sep 3, 2009 10:44 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
you didn't!
"We have a better chance to win with other guys in the lineup," said Blalock, who is hitting .190 the past 30 games. "That’s something I’ve got to deal with."
by diamond_dave on Sep 3, 2009 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Holland
Long term, good mechanics, lefty, starter.
Screw it: FELIZ
Speed kills.
that’s my final vote
Holland.
If for no reason other than he’s a lefty.
"I love winning." - rockin_rangers, on May 16, 2009
Feliz
Holland’s done great, but he doesn’t look like he’s quite as ready as Feliz is who has just been flat out amazing in the Majors. The greatest part about Feliz’s performance now is that he seems to be pitching the best he’s ever been in his first ML games. How many top prospects get called up and do that?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Feliz
Because it comes first alphabetically.
Purgatory's kind of like the in-betweeny one. You weren't really shit, but you weren't all that great either. Like Tottenham.
Not cool.
That’s like Sophie’s Choice.
"Was this really necsarry?" - cowpoke/hurler hurley
Feliz
And it isn’t even close.
I will always take the guy with the highest reasonable ceiling. Holland looks like he has the stuff to be a solid #2 eventually, whereas Feliz looks right now like he could be among the top 5 pitchers in baseball by 2011.
Obviously, there is a 30-40% chance that Holland has the better career. But there is a decent chance that Holland will be everything we think he can be, and Neftali Feliz will exceed his performance by leaps and bounds.
Go Rice Owls!
Jessica Alba
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
Hello Win Column!!!
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Sep 3, 2009 10:53 AM CDT reply actions
no
but it always a good answer
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
Hello Win Column!!!
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Sep 3, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
CPS removal
this sounds like a question parents would put to their kids, asking which one they should keep, and then CPS would begin an investigation and remove the kids.
keep on rockin' in the free world !
FIRE, FIRE, FIRE!!!!
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on Sep 3, 2009 11:03 AM CDT reply actions 19 recs
haha, that's greatness
Must kill Moe. Weeeeeeeee
by Baseball North on Sep 3, 2009 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh, my God
I LOVE this.
"You got a guy coming up there who can’t hit water if he fell out of a boat." - Tom Grieve on Richie Sexson, 5.8.2008
"I’ve been a Rangers fan all my life and I can tell you there’s been plenty of fucking crying in baseball…" - WhipSmart, 6.3.08
"When it comes to Jeff Mathis, the story ends with us putting one in his earhole." - AJM, 7.7.08
I vote Jon Daniels
because everytime I think of things like this I feel like I should offer him my wife or something.
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
by Keynes on Sep 3, 2009 11:03 AM CDT via mobile reply actions 3 recs
I can't belive Feliz is so far ahead
but I go with Holland because I met/got his autograph a few weeks ago, and he was a nice guy…not saying Neftali isn’t
but you wouldn’t ever want to separate the Dutch Oven, would you?
"I hope a bartender appears, with a shot and a beer everytime ya holler, cause yeah man, that's lucky"-Pat Green
I hate pop quizes
Especially when I didn’t study the night before. Flip a coin? Damn no change. Only 2 choices so I can’t use the quadrant clock or the B,C,A,D methods. Hmm… 5 letters in Feliz, 7 in Holland, neither are my favorie number. I can’t decide!
OK. I will just turn in a blank sheet of paper and get partial credit for being here. There done.
On no! Did I put my name on the paper?
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland -Tom Grieve Rangers Minor League Player of the Year
Martin Perez - Nolan Ryan Rangers Minor League Pitcher of the Year
Power lefties and 101 MPH flamethrowers are both rare.
I think I have to go with Holland, but after Feliz’s comment the other day of how he can go over 100 MPH “anytime he wants” makes me love him more. I think I love Elvis most, though. Not that you asked.
It was Feliz for me even before Holland was called up.
It was close before Feliz’s massacer of the Major Leagues lately.
I had
Holland before Feliz prior to the call up but i have flip flopped on that. Dont mean to thread highjack but what about Feliz or Andrus?
08/03/2009 A day that will live in infamy for the rest of the AL West.
by Michael Cave on Sep 3, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
This will definitely be one of those threads
that is cited in 2 years when someone is making some claim about “well, i know holland was going to be better” or “i knew feliz was the best prospect we had”
08/03/2009 A day that will live in infamy for the rest of the AL West.
Holland
Too many questions about whether Feliz ends up in the rotation. It’s not as easy to “stretch out” a young arm as some folks make it sound. If he ends up in the bullpen he’s still a huge weapon, but I take the sure starter any day.
not as easy to "stretch out" a young arm?
Explain. If he goes into the rotation next year then he will only have relieved for about half of one season for this entire professional career. I mean we arent talking about him being the closer for a few years and then deciding he needs to be a starter.
08/03/2009 A day that will live in infamy for the rest of the AL West.
by Michael Cave on Sep 3, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Even if he stays in the bullpen for a while
That’s not a given that he’ll never be an effective starter. See Feldman, Scott.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Nolan and JD have both said
That he’s a starter next year.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Sep 3, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Nolan also just said in the Lebreton column a couple days ago
They are discussing what to do with him. There was no definitive statement that he would be a starter next season
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
This is almost like Sophie's Choice
actually it’s EXACTLY LIKE Sophie’s Choice
Must kill Moe. Weeeeeeeee
Font
Kidding.
Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...
We'll show you Obama's birth certificate as soon as you show us Sarah Palin's high school diploma...
Last night, I had an arguement with my friend whether the Rangers were a top 5 club
He kept saying the pitching was suspect and I cited their dominance in almost all pitching categories. He started to come back with another point and stopped because I had this huge goofy smile on my face. He asks why I smiling. I say because we are having this discussion. The team has sucked for so long I cannot believe I’m stating facts like best pitching staff statistically, poised for playoffs, etc. I’m so fuckng HAPPY. Dutch shows the ball too much in my opinion which he needs to change. Happy doesn’t need to change a thing.
Your 2009 Snow Monkey Ambassador
Feliz
I just have a feeling Holland is just a left handed Bobby Witt, with a little more control. Not that Witt sucked or anything, but I think he never reached expectations.
I see Feliz as the next Mariano Rivera who could be the most dominant closer in baseball for the next 10 years or so.
Wild Card first place Texas Rangers!
did you say boo
or boourns?
Must kill Moe. Weeeeeeeee
by Baseball North on Sep 3, 2009 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
If it weren't for Bobby V
who knows what would’ve happened with Witt? The guy sure had talent. I like the way RW is managing Holland. He wont be overused the way Witt was imo.
After Fuentes blows a save and an Angels loss to the Indians:
"Angels still in first place" - UCI Halo
"Hey you know who would have gotten those 3 outs in the 9th?
Darren O’Day." - FirebatM3
LOL
I like neither of your projections
"You dont know much do you, Big Steve?"
--Finnerty.Fan on Aug 13, 2009 5:13 PM PDT
you don't like Feliz becoming the next Mariano Rivera??
Although I’d love to see him being a TORP, if he does become a closer, it’d be game over pretty much every time he was called in to get the save. Never underestimate the value of having an elite closer. Plus look at how dominant Rivera’s been in the postseason – outside of that game 7 vs. Arizona.
After Fuentes blows a save and an Angels loss to the Indians:
"Angels still in first place" - UCI Halo
"Hey you know who would have gotten those 3 outs in the 9th?
Darren O’Day." - FirebatM3
LOL
That game 7 vs. Arizona
Is the only game I think about when it comes to him in the playoffs.
2009 Texas Rangers: Why The Hell Not Us?--ghtd36 on May 13, 2009
Maybe thats just because he plays for the Yankees?
I feel the same way. I loved seeing Arizona hand it to them. But Rivera’s playoff stats:
8-1 with a .77 ERA over a 117.1 innings with 34 saves. Absolutely amazing!
After Fuentes blows a save and an Angels loss to the Indians:
"Angels still in first place" - UCI Halo
"Hey you know who would have gotten those 3 outs in the 9th?
Darren O’Day." - FirebatM3
LOL
Sure, if Feliz becomes the next Rivera that would be good
But not as good as Feliz becoming a regular All-Star and the most dominant starter in the game, which is his ceiling. Until he fails as a starter, I don’t want to see him tried out as a closer.
"You dont know much do you, Big Steve?"
--Finnerty.Fan on Aug 13, 2009 5:13 PM PDT
Same here
But worst comes to worst, it wouldn’t be horrible if he became an elite closer
After Fuentes blows a save and an Angels loss to the Indians:
"Angels still in first place" - UCI Halo
"Hey you know who would have gotten those 3 outs in the 9th?
Darren O’Day." - FirebatM3
LOL
Witt
Was a high first-round pick who had a hard time throwing strikes despite great stuff. Holland was a draft-and-follow whose biggest problem is that he throws too many strikes. Other than being top Ranger pitching prospects, they’re not a whole lot alike.
As for the poll, I’d take Feliz. His stuff smells like pure gasoline.
Officially gay for Neftali Feliz
I'll go with Holland
Don’t get me wrong, I love Feliz, but I’ll go with Holland due to him being left-handed and that being a huge key to pitching in the RBIA.
After Fuentes blows a save and an Angels loss to the Indians:
"Angels still in first place" - UCI Halo
"Hey you know who would have gotten those 3 outs in the 9th?
Darren O’Day." - FirebatM3
LOL
Feliz for me
and it would have been if he was still in OKC, but watching him dominate guys even when he’s throwing at 91-93 makes it a much easier choice. Choosing between Feliz, Strasburg, Darvish and Chapman would be a much harder decision than Feliz V Holland.
Feliz.
Untouchable. His stuff is so electric, not the kind of guy hitters will “figure out.”
Son, if you really want something in this life, you have to work for it. Now quiet! They're about to announce the lottery numbers. - Homer Simpson
I answered that with my willingness to be OK with the Rangers moving Holland-Perez for Halladay.
Feliz has both the fastball and an ability to control it that can not be taught. If folks are thinking Holland may become Lester, clearly the same reasoning would say Feliz could become Pedro.
I am more convinced than ever that Feliz will be an Ace after seeing the fangraphs plots showing how Feliz can use either his fastball on the outer half or up high OR his curveball low and away to get batters out. To me, that’s as amazing as hitting triple digits.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
As much as I love Dutch
it was the command of that curve that won me over for Feliz
Feliz
Derek Holland-2011 AL Cy Young
Feliz
When we had this debate last offseason the reason that I argued for Feliz was his aptitude, his steep arc of improvement. He’d only even thrown a breaking ball since he joined this organization, and it was already showing flashes even if you couldn’t grade it out as a quality pitch at that time. By the same logic, I am baffled by those who don’t think that he has the athleticism and aptitude to consolidate these improvements into a consistent starter package.
My other concern was that some of Holland’s velo would be given back, and even though it’s a touch down, fortunately, both of these issues appear to be coming out favorably. How often does that happen with pitchers.
Also I know that folks are generally unwilling to look back at their logic, but as I think that tyd is noting above, I’m still a little flabbergasted at how much more willing folks were to rush Feliz into a big package for Halladay.
by Brett Perryman on Sep 3, 2009 11:47 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Would you agree that it seemed that Ricciardi and the Rangers also valued Holland more?
Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...
We'll show you Obama's birth certificate as soon as you show us Sarah Palin's high school diploma...
by Brian Thomas on Sep 3, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes
I’m probably more baffled by Ricciardi’s reported machinations on that deal than anything I’ve seen in a while.
by Brett Perryman on Sep 3, 2009 12:44 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree, and his aptitude has been very underrated
I always heard that he was a smart kid who “got it”, both pitching and handling the pressures of the game, but I think that was an understatement. Not only does he have some of the best pure stuff in the game, he’s cool as a cucumber on the mound and he has a combination of command and smarts the likes of which I haven’t seen out of a power pitcher in recent memory. I hate to throw around comps like these, but what do you get when you have a guy with an 80 fastball, plus breaking and offspeed pitches, plus command, and the aptitude and feel for pitching (and just plain toying with hitters) of a young Greg Maddux)? I watch him pitch and feel like there’s nothing he cannot do on the mound. I have never felt that way about a young Rangers pitcher, EVER.
I know we’ve only seen 26.1 innings and it’s easy to get ahead of ourselves, but he’s showing Hall of Fame-caliber abilities. You just don’t see the power, command, intelligence, and easy mechanics combined into one guy very often, especially not at age 21.
"You dont know much do you, Big Steve?"
--Finnerty.Fan on Aug 13, 2009 5:13 PM PDT
It's easy to be cool. . .
. . . when you know as a complete fact of life that the best few people at playing baseball in the known universe cannot put wood on what you throw.
That's an interesting point, could you argue that cool demeanor = great stuff + confidence in your stuff?
At least in this case, it seems that it does.
I’ve seen great stuff that guys couldn’t even remotely command, nor were they confident in any way. But Feliz is a badass, he knows it, and he enjoys it.
"You dont know much do you, Big Steve?"
--Finnerty.Fan on Aug 13, 2009 5:13 PM PDT
My logic
was simple, well, at least to me. I have always thought Feliz’s secondary stuff above avg to very good but i never envisioned him being this consistent with it this early. Plus his fastball command has been impeccable as well. I wasnt expecting this type of polish until he was 24 or so.
You cite his improvement astutely. How much better can he get? I mean now he has a taste for the bigs and is a true pitcher. This is very scary. I dont discount that Holland will improve as well but Feliz is really looking like a once in a generation talent. I was wrong about wanting to include him (didnt want to do the trade at all but if we did Feliz is who i would have included amongst the big 4).
08/03/2009 A day that will live in infamy for the rest of the AL West.
by Michael Cave on Sep 3, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
No, Z.
You did not argue any of that. The only reason you think Feliz > Holland is because of SSS, and the only thing that made him a good prospect was his fastball.
Stop being stupid.
You don't separate fraternal twins
Even if you are not the natural parent.
Nobody in baseball impresses me more than Feliz. But Holland is a maturing starter. I’d wait if I had to choose, and select based on team shortfalls. Now – no, can’t choose.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -
"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce
by Ed Coffin on Sep 3, 2009 11:50 AM CDT reply actions
Feliz
Holland can be an all-star talent but Feliz can be generational talent.
by Coolbean04 on Sep 3, 2009 11:58 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Well said
"You dont know much do you, Big Steve?"
--Finnerty.Fan on Aug 13, 2009 5:13 PM PDT
No.
This is not the right answer.
"Either we need to re-calibrate our rectangle, or Alfonzo Marquez is not having a good night." - Josh Lewin
by utlonghorn24 on Sep 3, 2009 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Very boring.
Hank is the elephant in the room. When will he disappear?
by inactive lsb user on Sep 3, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
such a beating
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Sep 3, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Is BBL one of HH's names?
"You dont know much do you, Big Steve?"
--Finnerty.Fan on Aug 13, 2009 5:13 PM PDT
Holland
I’m glad I don’t have to pick one.
Holland is left handed, and has shown the ability to rebound from adversity. He handled hearing his name in trade rumors better than most would. I’m not saying Feliz can’t do those things, but I haven’t seen them yet.
As of right now, Holland is ahead of Feliz. I reserve the right to change this opinion at any point the in the future ;-)
"we’re a bunch of knee-jerking yahoos who like new and shiny things." -- FirebatM3 July 10, 2009
Feliz
What do you think we could get in trade value for him?
I’m just sayin… I bet 1 for 1, you could get a hell of a player right now… Could Halladay be obtained for very close to straight-up at this point?
I don’t want to, just curious
Hanley, Longoria??
Must kill Moe. Weeeeeeeee
by Baseball North on Sep 3, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Feliz
Until it is proven that he absolutely cannot without a doubt be a starter — his potential there is just astronomical.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
Going to be Feliz based on stats,
But if Feliz was in the rotation all year we would have seen him struggle like Holland. That’s what young pitchers do.
One up to Holland for being in the rotation all year and showing glimpses of greatness.
This question sucks. It can’t be answered in fair terms.
The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ
Evil.
Scouts use a scale of 10 to 80 to rate tools. 80 is the top.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
Holland
Just ‘cause Feliz might get bored with baseball after awhile and decide to retire since there’ s no challenge too it…
funny how we are choosing between players when a few years back we ..
would accept anyone who could actually pitch and be happy. I pick both , plus hunter, plus feldman, plus andrus, plus davis, plus borbon, and plus any other rookie or young player with great upside and talent to help me forget the past 10 years of crap I watched on tv :)
Feliz
I would have said Holland a month ago, becuase I was concerned that Feliz might be a reliever long-term. But after watching him pitch, it’s clear he has the second and third pitch to be a starter.
Feliz-Holland has a chance to be a real nice one-two in the rotation.
Feliz
If he can take a curve like the one he flashed the other day to the starters mound, the Pedro Jr hype won’t just be hype.
I’ve liked Holland better than him for a long time because Feliz is a tad less likely to reach his ceiling, but after getting to see what everyone was raving about this year…
Hank is 7 runs below a zombie replacement at first base. Do you realize how terrible that is? Zombie’s can’t think, they’re slow, and they’re often ejected from the game for eating opposing baserunners’ brains. - Ben quantifies Hank Blalock
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