This Day in LSB History
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 3, 2009 3:00 PM CDT
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PrintOn this day two years ago, I offered Part 2 of my series on why Sammy Sosa is not a Hall of Famer.
Part 3 will be ready any day now, I'm sure...
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Just like the
Top 50 Greatest Rangers ever?
2009 Texas Rangers: Why The Hell Not Us?--ghtd36 on May 13, 2009
I'd settle for him
cleaning up the links section on the left side of the page. Some of those are horribly outdated, including hte 50 greatest rangers evers link, and there have been a lot of good sites that should be added.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
You could probably hire
a homeless person to do it. He’d likely be more reliable.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
Ben owns, and lives on, a piece of property...
…in Lake Worth that has four separate buildings on it, none of them more than about 400 square feet.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 3, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
The house...
itself is 700 square feet.
"Blalock in the cleanup spot makes gives me agita." - Dustin
It's built in what's called...
a “Four Square” floor plan. Not counting the bathroom, it technically has four rooms. It was listed in MLS as having two bedrooms, but you could only functionally use one of the other rooms as a bedroom if the person using didn’t mind people walking through their bedroom a lot.
"Blalock in the cleanup spot makes gives me agita." - Dustin
Sketchy.
Hank is the elephant in the room. When will he disappear?
by inactive lsb user on Sep 3, 2009 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I think you are confused
It is 700 cubic feet, maybe.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 3, 2009 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Heh
Hank is the elephant in the room. When will he disappear?
by inactive lsb user on Sep 3, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Ben sounds like coolest person on this blog
"You dont know much do you, Big Steve?"
--Finnerty.Fan on Aug 13, 2009 5:13 PM PDT
This house is awesome.
You’re just jealous.
"Blalock in the cleanup spot makes gives me agita." - Dustin
I may have to inquire about renting one of your 400 sq ft buildings to live in soon.
by Black Francis on Sep 3, 2009 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions
We could make a sitcom.
It could be called “That Darn Dustin.”
"Blalock in the cleanup spot makes gives me agita." - Dustin
haha
It would be interesting, I guess. Lake Worth? Why the hell are you living there? I do a lot of business in that area and it’s…well you know what it is.
by Black Francis on Sep 3, 2009 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions
I live there...
because I paid $50k for a 1/2 acre of property and will likely have that paid off in under 5 years (at which point it’s an asset, and not a monthly expense).
People get too hung up on superficial stuff… I would never buy a house in Frisco or Southlake because you’re paying a premium for stuff I don’t value.
"Blalock in the cleanup spot makes gives me agita." - Dustin
I agree with that
I’d rather buy a place in Oak Cliff than Lake Worth. Had a client who got kidnapped and nearly murdered out there. Lots of meth in those parts.
by Black Francis on Sep 3, 2009 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I have a boat...
and like to live near lakes, and am partial to the West side of the metroplex. The neighborhood I live in (Indian Oaks) doesn’t appear to have any meth issues. All of my neighbors are like 80.
"Blalock in the cleanup spot makes gives me agita." - Dustin
Can Ben fix captions?
Is it 2 years ago, not 2 months?
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -
"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce
by Ed Coffin on Sep 3, 2009 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Didn't you see Sammy in the dugout in July?
"What ... 92 miles per hour?" Feldman scoffed. "That's not gas. Feliz throws gas."
by NorCalRangersFan on Sep 3, 2009 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Isn't that just when its added?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Juice is irrelevant
He simply wasn’t good enough for long enough.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 3, 2009 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions
If you consider the 109th most valuable player of all time to be...
“without a doubt”, then yes.
Sosa is, at best, a borderline HOF case.
Borderline is right about where I have him.
If I had a ballot, I would probably give him a nudge based on, y’know, “fame.” But yeah.
billybobisdrunk
and the application of the Keltner Test.
Part 1 was good times.
Hank is the elephant in the room. When will he disappear?
by inactive lsb user on Sep 3, 2009 3:16 PM CDT reply actions
If only we had
a lefty killing hitter like Sosa on this years team …
You can even say that ’07 Sosa (.252/.311/.468) would be an upgrade on the ’09 team as a hitter.
Hank Blalock (.238/.278/.470 )
Josh Hamilton (.270/.318/.426 )
Chris Davis (.215/.264/.423)
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
Well
It is pretty clear to me that Sosa was run out of town for no good reason (the reason being that Jason Botts couldn’t hit his way into the lineup, which was somehow Sosa’s fault). He would have been an ideal RH DH last season and probably this year as well.
Go Rice Owls!
Yeah, I don't think there was much doubt
that Sosa took a ton of grief, and most of it was because he took those bats away from the great Jason Botts (who was in the Jap minor leagues last I looked, since he couldn’t make it in the Jap majors). Adam’s love affair with the spare Cat and hatred of Sammy Sosa was only rivaled buy his love of Laird and hatred of Barajas as completely inexplicable positions. Very comparable results on the field getting reactions on the opposite end of the spectrum.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
I remember kind of liking this argument
I still think that the best way of normalizing HOFers from the Roid Era is to compare them to each other. A starting point is to ask whether someone was among the best 1-2 players at his position for a protracted period of time (with obvious exceptions, where there are multiple great players simultaneously). This relative analysis is a stronger measure than looking at raw numbers, which obviously fluctuate for any number of reasons.
Given that Sosa was often in the top ten outfielders, but probably rarely among the top 3 or 4, you have to seriously question his cause.
Incidentally, I’d say the same goes for his 1998 compadre Mark McGwire…
Go Rice Owls!
That thinking
would result in a much smaller HoF than currently exists.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
Really?
I don’t think so. At any given time, you can take up to the 1.5 top players / position. Assuming that top players turn over every 5 years, that’s somewhere around 240 (8*1.5*20) position players over the past 100 years. There are what, 120 or so position players in the hall of fame now? If anything, this is a loose criterion. I guess in reality I should use a 10 year filter.
Go Rice Owls!
10 year filter on best players
So who are the best players from 1999-2009
C: Pudge, Mauer
1b: Pujols, Berkman/Helton/Teixeira (?)
2b: Kent, Utley (?)
SS: Jeter,
3b: ARod*, Miggy Cabrera?
LF: Manny, Bonds
CF: Beltran (Andruw Jones has petered out)
RF: Vlad
DH: Ortiz
I’m sure I’m forgetting a couple of obvious ones, but we’re talking about guys who actually dominated their position for a long period of time. And several of those are guys who’ve only come on the scene recently and still need a few more years (Mauer, Utley), and others are iffy at best (Berkman, Helton, Kent). But that is 14 over the past 10 years, which is roughly the pace the HOF goes.
Go Rice Owls!
stealing from gossamer
Ichiro, Sheffield, Chipper, and Thome belong on here as well. (not lots of others since mine is just a past 10 years filter)
Obviously not all get in, but these are the discussants and I’m referring to Cahill’s point that you don’t need to be in the top 1-2 at your position to be considered.
Go Rice Owls!
Giambi - 1B
Ichiro – CF
Scott Rolen – 3B
Miguel Tejada – SS
Those are the only additions I would argue for, off the top of my head.
Hank is the elephant in the room. When will he disappear?
by inactive lsb user on Sep 3, 2009 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
How much CF has Ichiro played?
Seems to be on one of the corners most of the time. Usually Right.
by Black Francis on Sep 3, 2009 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Right
I was just guessing that for the majority of that 10 year span, he was in CF, but you could be right. He might have moved sooner than I thought.
Hank is the elephant in the room. When will he disappear?
by inactive lsb user on Sep 3, 2009 8:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Babe Ruth was pretty good. Nice ops...good gravy.
Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100. - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
by Cecilio's Guante on Sep 3, 2009 3:27 PM CDT reply actions
Who the fuck is Matt Gutierrez?
by TooLegitToQuit on Sep 3, 2009 3:59 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
sosa is probably a hofer
bonds
griffey
frank thomas
sheffield
jim thome
pudge
mcguire
pedro martinez
clemens
randy johnson
greg maddux
sammy sosa
jeff bagwell
craig biggio
palmeiro
vizquel
jeter
arod
that’s off the top of my head. i feel bad because i’m sure i missed 3 or 4 guys
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
right after hitting submit
manny
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
sorry
wish i could delete my on post
trick is trying to decide which of these guys get in and which don’t:
bonds
griffey
frank thomas
sheffield
jim thome
pudge
mcguire
pedro martinez
clemens
randy johnson
greg maddux
sammy sosa
jeff bagwell
craig biggio
palmeiro
vizquel
jeter
arod
manny ramirez
larry walker
mike piazza
chipper jones
jeff kent
ichiro
edgar martinez
vlad
robeto alomar
fred mcgriff
barry larkin
kenny lofton
albert belle
mariano rivera
john smolz
tom glavine
andy pettitte
troy percival
trevor hoffman
and i bet i’ve still left off some guys that could be shoe in/borderline
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
I'd add
Santana (maybe needs a couple more years)
Halliday (does need a couple more years)
Schilling (maybe – the legend of the bloody sock will carry him)
Mussina
"What ... 92 miles per hour?" Feldman scoffed. "That's not gas. Feliz throws gas."
by NorCalRangersFan on Sep 3, 2009 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions
carlos delgado?
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
Not sure about Pettite
If he gets in, its because he’s a Yankee. If he played for any other team, probably doesn’t make it.
"What ... 92 miles per hour?" Feldman scoffed. "That's not gas. Feliz throws gas."
by NorCalRangersFan on Sep 3, 2009 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Percival didn't play long enough
Reardon, Franco and Smith are not in and they have more career saves (which is what the BBWAA are going to look at). Of course Smith not being in is a travesty.
"What ... 92 miles per hour?" Feldman scoffed. "That's not gas. Feliz throws gas."
by NorCalRangersFan on Sep 3, 2009 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions
As long as it took Lee Smith to walk to the mound
they should make him wait for years to get in like he made us wait for him to lumber his way in from the bullpen
Go Rice Owls!
I wonder what lies ahead for Tim Smith's Baseball World Cup Blog ..
Hank is the elephant in the room. When will he disappear?
by inactive lsb user on Sep 3, 2009 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't get the argument against him in that link
He’s pretty much right in line with the bottom few HOFs you listed. Add in the 600 HRs and that’s a HOF.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Yep
BBWAA love counting stats
"What ... 92 miles per hour?" Feldman scoffed. "That's not gas. Feliz throws gas."
by NorCalRangersFan on Sep 3, 2009 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep
I love arguments that use WARP3, OPS, EQA etc., as if they have any relevance to the actual HOF voting process.
Any argument based on them is fairly ridiculous until the BBWAA changes the way they induct folks.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
Just because the BBWAA voters do a poor job of voting based on career value
doesn’t mean we have to adopt their standards
by John Fountain on Sep 3, 2009 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed.
There are two separate arguments.
1) Who will get in to the Hall of Fame.
2) Who should get in to the Hall of Fame.
In the latter, how voters vote is almost completely irrelevant.
Furthermore, down the road, I’m extremely confident advanced baseball analysis will play a larger part in Hall of Fame voting than it does now as they become even more mainstream, as younger writers begin to take over, and as more Keith Laws and Rob Neyers have ballots. Of course, by theyn, they may be looking at really antiquated stats. . .
Totally agree
"What ... 92 miles per hour?" Feldman scoffed. "That's not gas. Feliz throws gas."
by NorCalRangersFan on Sep 4, 2009 12:59 AM CDT up reply actions
that is unfair
should the fact that he hit 600 hrs be discounted?
he is one of only 6 people to ever accomplish that…
Fuck Mike Estabrook
Very provocative--some questions:.
1. Should Dick Allen be listed as a comp outfielder, as you did in Part 1? Allen only played about 250 games of a 1700+ game career in the OF.
2. Regarding Gdawg’s post above—do you think that Winfield shouldn’t have made the HOF?
3. I’m not well-verse in BP-type statistics, but do poor years early in a career lower a player’s numbers when you use these metric? Say, for example, Sandy Koufax isn’t measured by his first six years, but by his last six years. I saw an article on the greatest southpaws, and his stats were considerably lower than the others (except Hubbell’s), which I assumed was because of his short career. Couldn’t the same “Koufax rule” apply to Sosa and discard his early years? Have you ran his numbers from the time he joined the Cubs?
That is why
the “one of the best at his position” criterion is important. Adam was getting at this somewhat in tallying MVP finishes.
Sosa was only arguably one of the best at his position for a couple of years in the late ’90s. He was always in the top 10 OFers, but he never really was one of the very best hitters in the game (a la Pujols today).
Koufax, on the other hand, was the single best pitcher in baseball in the early ’60s. Pedro was the single best pitcher in baseball for five-six years as well.
You can be a HOFer by being very good for a long time (think Biggio, Yount, Molitor) or being great for a short time. The shorter the time (Koufax’s 1962-1966) the greater you have to be. Koufax put up some of the most dominating years of all time. If Sosa had had 5 straight 2001s, it’d be different. But he didn’t. He does have something in the middle, which makes it kind of hard to judge.
Go Rice Owls!
Sammy Sosa
The classic example of why you cannot let Ron have any toys. He pretty much ruined any value Sosa had as a lefty-masher by hitting him cleanup vs. RHP’s incessantly.
Hank is 7 runs below a zombie replacement at first base. Do you realize how terrible that is? Zombie’s can’t think, they’re slow, and they’re often ejected from the game for eating opposing baserunners’ brains. - Ben quantifies Hank Blalock
Question about comp by position?
I see that the iconoclast Adam compares Sosa to other right-fielders, and wonder about this approach. For years, all outfielders were grouped in a single categories, simply as outfielders, which reflects, I imagine something of the fact that outfield positions are a bit more interchangeable that more specialized infield positions. And sometimes, the particularly position an outfielder plays, as Josh Hamilton can attest, is determined by the manager and not the player’s particular defensive skills (arm, speed, etc.). After Bill James’ Historical Abstract, this type of comp, comparing RFs to other RFs, for example, has become popular, and I noticed that HOF now groups players this way on its website.
I wonder if this kind of comp relevant or, better yet, a reflection of how players were used by their managers? If we’re not looking a outfielder’s defensive stats, why can’t we compare Sosa to Lou Brock, Billy Williams (to name another Cubbie), or Mickey Mantle? Why does it have to be other right-fielders?
Also, what about players like Stan Musial or Harmon Killebrew, who split time at two or three positions? What about players such as Frank Thomas who were DHs more often than position players? What is the valid comp for these players?
In addition, I wonder if this relatively new comparison by position has led to the induction of offensively-challenged but reputedly stellar defensive position players such as Bill Mazeroski (Vet Cmte.) and Ozzie Smith?
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