Top 50 Greatest Rangers ever?

and the application of the Keltner Test.

Part 1 was good times.

a lefty killing hitter like Sosa on this years team …

You can even say that ’07 Sosa (.252/.311/.468) would be an upgrade on the ’09 team as a hitter.

Hank Blalock (.238/.278/.470 )
Josh Hamilton (.270/.318/.426 )
Chris Davis (.215/.264/.423)

I still think that the best way of normalizing HOFers from the Roid Era is to compare them to each other. A starting point is to ask whether someone was among the best 1-2 players at his position for a protracted period of time (with obvious exceptions, where there are multiple great players simultaneously). This relative analysis is a stronger measure than looking at raw numbers, which obviously fluctuate for any number of reasons.

Given that Sosa was often in the top ten outfielders, but probably rarely among the top 3 or 4, you have to seriously question his cause.

Incidentally, I’d say the same goes for his 1998 compadre Mark McGwire…

bonds
griffey
frank thomas
sheffield
jim thome
pudge
mcguire
pedro martinez
clemens
randy johnson
greg maddux
sammy sosa
jeff bagwell
craig biggio
palmeiro
vizquel
jeter
arod
that’s off the top of my head. i feel bad because i’m sure i missed 3 or 4 guys

wish i could delete my on post

trick is trying to decide which of these guys get in and which don’t:
bonds
griffey
frank thomas
sheffield
jim thome
pudge
mcguire
pedro martinez
clemens
randy johnson
greg maddux
sammy sosa
jeff bagwell
craig biggio
palmeiro
vizquel
jeter
arod
manny ramirez
larry walker
mike piazza
chipper jones
jeff kent
ichiro
edgar martinez
vlad
robeto alomar
fred mcgriff
barry larkin
kenny lofton
albert belle
mariano rivera
john smolz
tom glavine
andy pettitte
troy percival
trevor hoffman

and i bet i’ve still left off some guys that could be shoe in/borderline

thats weird

He’s pretty much right in line with the bottom few HOFs you listed. Add in the 600 HRs and that’s a HOF.

1. Should Dick Allen be listed as a comp outfielder, as you did in Part 1? Allen only played about 250 games of a 1700+ game career in the OF.
2. Regarding Gdawg’s post above—do you think that Winfield shouldn’t have made the HOF?
3. I’m not well-verse in BP-type statistics, but do poor years early in a career lower a player’s numbers when you use these metric? Say, for example, Sandy Koufax isn’t measured by his first six years, but by his last six years. I saw an article on the greatest southpaws, and his stats were considerably lower than the others (except Hubbell’s), which I assumed was because of his short career. Couldn’t the same “Koufax rule” apply to Sosa and discard his early years? Have you ran his numbers from the time he joined the Cubs?

The classic example of why you cannot let Ron have any toys. He pretty much ruined any value Sosa had as a lefty-masher by hitting him cleanup vs. RHP’s incessantly.

I see that the iconoclast Adam compares Sosa to other right-fielders, and wonder about this approach. For years, all outfielders were grouped in a single categories, simply as outfielders, which reflects, I imagine something of the fact that outfield positions are a bit more interchangeable that more specialized infield positions. And sometimes, the particularly position an outfielder plays, as Josh Hamilton can attest, is determined by the manager and not the player’s particular defensive skills (arm, speed, etc.). After Bill James’ Historical Abstract, this type of comp, comparing RFs to other RFs, for example, has become popular, and I noticed that HOF now groups players this way on its website.

I wonder if this kind of comp relevant or, better yet, a reflection of how players were used by their managers? If we’re not looking a outfielder’s defensive stats, why can’t we compare Sosa to Lou Brock, Billy Williams (to name another Cubbie), or Mickey Mantle? Why does it have to be other right-fielders?

Also, what about players like Stan Musial or Harmon Killebrew, who split time at two or three positions? What about players such as Frank Thomas who were DHs more often than position players? What is the valid comp for these players?

In addition, I wonder if this relatively new comparison by position has led to the induction of offensively-challenged but reputedly stellar defensive position players such as Bill Mazeroski (Vet Cmte.) and Ozzie Smith?