Vladimir Guerrero officially a Ranger
Vladimir Guerrero is officially a Texas Ranger, per Evan Grant. The deal is for $5 million plus incentives, with a mutual option for 2011 which, if the Rangers decline it, will have a $1 million buyout clause.
As with Rich Harden, I think part of the motivation here is to essentially boot some of the money from this year to next year with the option buyout provisions.
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god i wish it was feb 18th
Nobody is perfect, i am nobody, therefore, i am perfect
by 34express on Jan 11, 2010 2:01 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Where's Shep's pic of Vlad in the Ranger uni?
I need a new screen saver.
"Ho visto il tuo agire, non solo rendono per me. Basta un sacco di fluff".

TCU Frogs- #3
"THAT WAS MY SPECIAL MONDAY MORNING TAPE, SPECIAL, FOR YOU!
It's fucking Monday afternoon, you should get out of bed earlier."
by FormerLSBUser on Jan 11, 2010 2:26 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
seeing the pic of vlad below reminds me they changed the front text from rangers to texas
woops.
the preceding post was a great success.
It looks better as Rangers anyway.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I'm not real smart, so...
…what do you mean by this?
As with Rich Harden, I think part of the motivation here is to essentially boot some of the money from this year to next year with the option buyout provisions.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 11, 2010 2:17 PM CST reply actions
There is of course
the crazy senario where both sides take the second year option, then he makes $5mill this year and whatever the option is for, right?
TCU Frogs- #3
"THAT WAS MY SPECIAL MONDAY MORNING TAPE, SPECIAL, FOR YOU!
It's fucking Monday afternoon, you should get out of bed earlier."
by FormerLSBUser on Jan 11, 2010 2:28 PM CST up reply actions
But...
how’s that any different than not having the option and simply deferring $1MM until 2011? No cap in Baseball so its just a matter of deferring the obligation to pay.
Jack Daddy
It is also used as an incentive to the player
That’s what makes it different.
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.
Because I'm sure they wanted the option too...
I’m sure there’s a scenario where both sides agree to the option.
by slimshadty12 on Jan 11, 2010 4:56 PM CST up reply actions
I need help
Can someone remind me of the guys I am missing from this list… Inspiration hit for a new video…
2009-2010 Off Season Acquisitons:
Harden
Oliver
Chris Ray
Vlad
Greene
Any other ML’ers?
TCU Frogs- #3
"THAT WAS MY SPECIAL MONDAY MORNING TAPE, SPECIAL, FOR YOU!
It's fucking Monday afternoon, you should get out of bed earlier."
by FormerLSBUser on Jan 11, 2010 2:35 PM CST reply actions
Also...
Any suggestions on a soundtrack for the offseason?
TCU Frogs- #3
"THAT WAS MY SPECIAL MONDAY MORNING TAPE, SPECIAL, FOR YOU!
It's fucking Monday afternoon, you should get out of bed earlier."
by FormerLSBUser on Jan 11, 2010 2:38 PM CST up reply actions
yes
Hazel Eyes by The Darkness
Mudhouse by Bob Schneider
Knockin’ On Heaven’s Door by GNR
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jan 11, 2010 3:37 PM CST up reply actions
People Get Ready by Curtis Mayfield and the Impressions
"Ho visto il tuo agire, non solo rendono per me. Basta un sacco di fluff".
also...
Joker and the Thief by Wolfmother
Runnin’ Wild by Airbourne
Uprising by Muse
"The pitcher has got only a ball. I've got a bat. So the percentage of weapons is in my favor..." Hank Aaron
Centerfield by The Outfield
you ever heard that song? It’s about baseball.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 11, 2010 5:03 PM CST up reply actions
i'm ready to play
today
"The pitcher has got only a ball. I've got a bat. So the percentage of weapons is in my favor..." Hank Aaron
yup
"The pitcher has got only a ball. I've got a bat. So the percentage of weapons is in my favor..." Hank Aaron
Yeah.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 11, 2010 5:09 PM CST up reply actions
I'm kidding about using this song btw...
that song is something I’d play at my worst enemies funeral…beaten into the ground.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 11, 2010 5:12 PM CST up reply actions
but
look at him, he could be centerfield if the coach would just give him a chance
"The pitcher has got only a ball. I've got a bat. So the percentage of weapons is in my favor..." Hank Aaron
War Cry - Outworld
Listen to it now, thank me later.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
ha
"The pitcher has got only a ball. I've got a bat. So the percentage of weapons is in my favor..." Hank Aaron
Thunderhorse
by Dethklok
"The pitcher has got only a ball. I've got a bat. So the percentage of weapons is in my favor..." Hank Aaron
Clay Rapada
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 11, 2010 2:42 PM CST up reply actions
Do inglett and clay really count?
TCU Frogs- #3
"THAT WAS MY SPECIAL MONDAY MORNING TAPE, SPECIAL, FOR YOU!
It's fucking Monday afternoon, you should get out of bed earlier."
by FormerLSBUser on Jan 11, 2010 2:47 PM CST up reply actions
Nope
since either could well be gone before March is over.
by Brett Perryman on Jan 11, 2010 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
Naw
might put Snyder though because he’s a Rule 5 guy.
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 11, 2010 2:49 PM CST up reply actions
He went through waivers
is AAA now, no longer tied to rule 5 designation
TCU Frogs- #3
"THAT WAS MY SPECIAL MONDAY MORNING TAPE, SPECIAL, FOR YOU!
It's fucking Monday afternoon, you should get out of bed earlier."
by FormerLSBUser on Jan 11, 2010 2:50 PM CST up reply actions
link?
I don’t remember that.
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 11, 2010 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
I remember getting it on a flash
might check jameys stuff, or here too… Im busy right now, cant check
TCU Frogs- #3
"THAT WAS MY SPECIAL MONDAY MORNING TAPE, SPECIAL, FOR YOU!
It's fucking Monday afternoon, you should get out of bed earlier."
by FormerLSBUser on Jan 11, 2010 2:52 PM CST up reply actions
I don't remember that either
maybe you’re thinking of Rapada
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
quite possible
TCU Frogs- #3
"THAT WAS MY SPECIAL MONDAY MORNING TAPE, SPECIAL, FOR YOU!
It's fucking Monday afternoon, you should get out of bed earlier."
by FormerLSBUser on Jan 11, 2010 2:52 PM CST up reply actions
yeah
Rapada is now off the 40
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 11, 2010 2:56 PM CST up reply actions
OT.
@LoneStarDugout Guillermo Moscoso helped Caracas pick up a big win last night: 5.1 ip, 5 h, 3 r (2 er), 0 bb,
1 k
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
and
@LoneStarDugout Nelson Cruz returned from injury in the D.R. last night. First game since December 1st. He pinch hit & reached on Anderson Hernandez error.
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 11, 2010 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
jeez do any of these guys get a break
other than his DL stint?
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jan 11, 2010 3:38 PM CST up reply actions
Heyman says Texas is now turning their attention to SP
Pretty much expected:
The Rangers did well to get Vladimir Guerrero for about $5 million to fill their need for a right-handed bat. His .705 lifetime slugging percentage in his new home park means that he probably picked the right place to sign, too. Texas now seeks a low-cost starting pitcher.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jon_heyman/01/11/heyman.pujols.mauer/index.html
I’d imagine Garland is too expensive. Maybe Sheets or Lewis?
Sheets won't be "low-cost "
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 11, 2010 2:49 PM CST up reply actions
Sure, not based on his current demands
But I don’t think anyone will meet those. I think he will ultimately settle for something like 3-4 million guaranteed with plenty of incentives. But you are probably right; the Rangers will likely end up with a Colby Lewis or Bartolo Colon type pitcher/reclamation project.
by Stephen Rushin on Jan 11, 2010 2:52 PM CST up reply actions
I can't look at Colon during highlights of one game, much less a whole season..
…that is one of the uglier dudes on the planet.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 11, 2010 2:57 PM CST up reply actions
and I am very handsome.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 11, 2010 3:05 PM CST up reply actions
woah
no bartolo colon…EVER
Sheets will be lucky to get 5M. I remember hearing he wanted alot of money. I think Harden is the example for him, except Harden, was still able to pitch 140+ innings last year while Sheets missed more than a year with his injury. If you look at Harden’s contract, I’d say 3-4M for his services with performance incentives that could boost it higher would be reasonable. Sheets is a much bigger risk than Harden at this point.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Yeah just throwing names out there...
Sullivan has mentioned Colon a couple of times, including in his blog post today. I agree with you on Sheets. I’d hate to see the Ranger settle for a flier on Colon, but given their recent fascination with the likes of Ponson, Benson, and Astacio, it wouldn’t surprise me.
More than anything, I am interested in seeing how much money this organization has to spend. They already spent well more than their “projected budget” by signing Oliver and Guerrero for just under $10 million. There are still some interesting starting pitching options out there between Garland, Sheets and Bedard. I can’t help but feel that this team has significantly more money than we realize and might be able to afford 4+ million to sign Bedard or Sheets to an incentive laden deal.
by Stephen Rushin on Jan 11, 2010 3:03 PM CST up reply actions
I imagine
that MLB has loosened any restrictions on spending and that Tom Hicks will puppet any of Greenberg’s desires for free agents as the proceedings move on…
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jan 11, 2010 3:40 PM CST up reply actions
Where are we on the purchase of the team? Haven't heard anything in a couple weeks...
…anything out there?
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 11, 2010 3:42 PM CST up reply actions
Oh, and I hammered Modus Hoperandi all last week....
…Durango Brewing Companies IPA, also 5-Barrell Brewery’s IPA
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 11, 2010 3:43 PM CST up reply actions
talk to me
thoughts about each…
I just bottled my newest batch, a Bitch Creek ESB clone by Grand Teton – tasted very promising without the carbonation, can’t wait to try it
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jan 11, 2010 3:47 PM CST up reply actions
They were all good, I can really only explain them in their hoppiness.
Modus was extremely hoppy, almost bitter, but the best quality. It was tough to drink it all night, but I managed.
5-Barrell was not as hoppy as Modus, but very good and clean.
DBC was good bc I drank it at the bar on the mountain, so it prolly added some sentimentality to it, not as Hoppy as the others and tasted kinda mass-produced…if that makes sense…it was still good, but it was the last of the 3 that I tried.
I would definitely pick up a 6-pack of any of the 3.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 11, 2010 3:56 PM CST up reply actions
I have to interject myself
into this discussion as I too hammered Modus Hoperandi this weekend (it was gone for a while from Whole Foods). They must dry hop the ever livin’ hell out of that brew because it has a great nose. I have also recently bottled my latest IPA, an ode to Two-Hearted. I have decided to call it Hoppy Cited, as an homage to the 90’s Rangers teams and their latin american players that were always so “Hoppy cited” to receive their latest contract extension.
by Whiskey in my Whiskey on Jan 11, 2010 5:06 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Recced for "Hoppy Cited"
And the proper history therein.
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.
Yeah
This article made him sound really desperate.
by Stephen Rushin on Jan 11, 2010 3:49 PM CST up reply actions
Especially this quote:
“Possibly, when they find a second baseman, they can come back around to their starting pitching. Of course, I’m up to talking with anybody right now. Things are kind of going slow for me because I’m fifth or sixth down the line [when it comes to] starting pitching”
by Stephen Rushin on Jan 11, 2010 3:50 PM CST up reply actions
Cahill would enjoy
the Davis family being back in town (are they still together?).
by Brett Perryman on Jan 11, 2010 4:50 PM CST up reply actions
Lol
Good times, good times…
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.
I think Adam said that
they were no longer a happy couple. Adam probably broke them up to make lawyer fees. I heard he does that.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
I'm not a huge fan of this move
I’m not totally against it, by any means… It just doesn’t excite me like it seems to most everyone else and I don’t think Vlad will be the savior everyone seems to think he will be.
Honestly, I think his greatest contribution this year will be in not scoring runs against us.
That being said, I hope he has a great year, obviously. I’ll get to use my ‘Vlad the Inhaler’ pic more often.
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on Jan 11, 2010 2:51 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
it's not so much that he will be a savior
it’s the presence. other teams will still think twice about pitching around Hamilton, Kinsler, etc. when they realize Vlad, Cruz, etc. are waiting behind them to knock them in.
and even in a down year, the guy hits .295 or whatever? the OBP was dropping but you never know what renewed attention and some Clint Hurdle can do
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jan 11, 2010 3:41 PM CST up reply actions
I think that its a solid move
without much risk to it and with the potential to get a pretty good offensive season from him. The DH spot might help him regain some of his past form, but at least it will help keep him healthy. Last year’s DH spot gave the team an .802 OPS. I don’t think its asking too much for a healthy Vlad to do at least a little better than that. He did put up an .886 OPS 2 years ago.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Plus
It gives us a chance to get Smoak at least a half season in the minors. If Guerrero tanks or gets hurt, then we bring up Smoak, and let he and Davis split the 1b/dh job. If Guerrero is healthy and usefull all year, maybe we pick up his option and try again next year. And if Guerrero is awesome again, maybe we make a deal for Smoak (or Vlad!) and go from there.
Anyone know
if the press conference will be broadcast on the radio??? I don’t wanna miss it.
Doubt it
They never play Rangers ones but they air EVERY Wade press conference
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 11, 2010 2:57 PM CST up reply actions
Believe me, I know.
Makes me sick. As excited as I am for the Cowboys, I can only listen to so much Cowboys talk. I miss hearing baseball talk!
listening to the local radio talk baseball
is probably worse. they are terrible and don’t know anything about baseball, let alone the Rangers.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
+1000
I was listening to the harline last Thursday or Friday and they were doing a Rangers setment and I had to turn it off it was so bad. Danny was going on about how bad the rangers were going to regret loosing Byrd and only because of his “amazing” defense and “all he did was smash doubles” for the team. And Corby and Rynes agreed with him!! Rynes and Greggo used to be great at some baseball talk but your right, listenting to local radio talk baseball is MUCH worse than listetning to all Cowboys and no baseball. Its just sad!!
Elvis has "shook up" Arlington!!
someone round here should start a nightly internet broadcast or something..
..can you do that on the cheap?
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 11, 2010 3:38 PM CST up reply actions
Maximilian
isn’t he into that sort of thing?
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jan 11, 2010 3:42 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, believe so, hope he sees the post and lets us know some specifics
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 11, 2010 3:44 PM CST up reply actions
i would bet that if this Organization
takes off like we all hope and think it will, there has got to be a market for a good baseball specific show on one of networks from like 5-7pm, just leading up to games. Maybe the fan can find someone to come in and do pre-game, baseball talk every weekeday night. Id gladly turn off the Hardline to listen to something like that. As long as they get someone that really knows baseball!! Not some stupid ESPN jock but like a victor rojas or even Nadel or something. Do opinions and such. Id listen.
Elvis has "shook up" Arlington!!
no where
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 11, 2010 3:03 PM CST up reply actions
Try
theticket.com
Josey Wales born on LSB July 18, 2006 Jumped the shark--That glorious day in 2008. RIP Josey Wales.
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
They aren't playing it
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 11, 2010 3:04 PM CST up reply actions
Bastards!!!
Stinking Wade and the Cowboys get all the coverage.
Josey Wales born on LSB July 18, 2006 Jumped the shark--That glorious day in 2008. RIP Josey Wales.
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
the reply button is your friend
trust it and it will bring you happiness.
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
yep
Josey Wales born on LSB July 18, 2006 Jumped the shark--That glorious day in 2008. RIP Josey Wales.
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
@aandro The Vlad Guerrero press conference is beginning http://bit.ly/5afhkq
Josh Hamilton, Ian Kinsler, Darren Oliver and Michael Young are all in attendance.
- Anthony Andro
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
GO GET THAT UNI!
Vladimir Guerrero will wear No. ?
27. He got his jersey from Jon Daniels and Ron Washington.
- Anthony Andro
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 11, 2010 3:06 PM CST up reply actions
Thanks!
Josey Wales born on LSB July 18, 2006 Jumped the shark--That glorious day in 2008. RIP Josey Wales.
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
Ben has a pic
http://img158.yfrog.com/i/j0ey.jpg/
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 11, 2010 3:07 PM CST up reply actions
NICE, dreadlock free at the moment I see...
I did not ask you if you have herpes I said is that a hairpiece?!?
bc of all the .gif opportunities, right?
:)
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 11, 2010 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
heh, maybe. but he was just one of the most easily identifiable players in baseball.
not that I will have a hard time recognizing vlad.
the preceding post was a great success.
I do too...
but I wonder if he keeps it in the Texas heat? I bet not.
I did not ask you if you have herpes I said is that a hairpiece?!?
The Ticket sucks
Josey Wales born on LSB July 18, 2006 Jumped the shark--That glorious day in 2008. RIP Josey Wales.
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
so what will they be discussing for the next 3 hours 20 minutes...
They break it down. Cowboys, cowboys, cowboys… ok thats expected. But wait, theres hope – “well we will stop down for…”………….. community quickhits.
I really don’t think they are going to say the name vladimir guerrero for the entire show.
the preceding post was a great success.
What aobut their FREAKING FLAGSHIP, 103.3????
my God that annoys me to no end.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 11, 2010 3:07 PM CST up reply actions
yep
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 11, 2010 3:10 PM CST up reply actions
Correct
Josey Wales born on LSB July 18, 2006 Jumped the shark--That glorious day in 2008. RIP Josey Wales.
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
All that Rage made me forget....stupid The Fan
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 11, 2010 3:13 PM CST up reply actions
Gah, mutual option again.
Boo.
Oh well, still good.
Anyway I recorded Baseball Tonight to hear some Vlad reaction, I wonder if his name is even mentioned after this steroid stuff.
the preceding post was a great success.
mutual option
is only bad if vlad is awesome and we want to keep him. really, what is the likelihood of that?
i'd rather it not get picked up
because we got a great season out of him.
We can go after Dunn next year
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Meh
Davis DH, Smoak 1B
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 11, 2010 3:11 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not so sure I'd want Davis as my DH
I’ll wait until after this year, but the option to go after Dunn is there.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
yeah and I'd play Davis at 1B until Smoak proves he's better
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jan 11, 2010 3:44 PM CST up reply actions
I think if he plays well
It will work out. We will figure out a way to keep him. and hopefully the ownership thing will be figured out by then
by nathanbaum09 on Jan 11, 2010 3:17 PM CST up reply actions
x
“He’s my DH,” manager Ron Washington said. “He will play some outfield here and there. We’re going to do whatever we have to keep him healthy.”
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 11, 2010 3:26 PM CST reply actions
THEN KEEP HIM OUT OF THE OUTFIELD WASH!!!
I swear, if Wash runs Vlad or Harden into the ground, I’m going to lace his menthols with cyanide.
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch"
-Gdawg
Vlad playing in the OF
will happen about as much as Jones played in the OF. You want to never see him there, but I don’t doubt some minor injuries will force Vlad into the OF for a few games.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I'm ok with him playing because of an in jury, but there would need to be a few hurt.
I just fear Wash wanting Vlad’s “veteranygrittsomeness” to be more prominent on the team and putting him in the outfield is how he’ll want to do it. Wash doesn’t have a good coaching track record for me, so I’m crossing my fingers.
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch"
-Gdawg
Again, just look at how Jones was used last season
That was a guy with the gold glove reputation in CF and Wash played him in only 148 innings in the OF which were spread out throughout the season. Wash hasn’t been that bad in playing these kind of players in the field when they shouldn’t be playing there. His batting orders have been questionable and so has some of the decisions on playing time for certain players, but I can’t think of players who played that much in the field when they shouldn’t have.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Agreed
I don’t think he rides pitchers too hard either. Of course, if I could find pitcher abuse points per managers I could back up my claim…
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.
Well Millwood's 9th in avg. PAP
last season, and I don’t think that’s shocking. McCarthy is 36, Feldman 62, and then Harrison and Holland are 111 and 112 respectively. No one else at least in the top 120 (doin’t feel like looking further). It doesn’t seem like he’s any owrse than your average manager with that.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Ah, thanks.
Millwood & BMac did have a propensity for long innings, but most of that fault is on them.
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.
I do see your point.
But we’ve seen Wash’s hatred for all things Cruz (we will really love it now that JD gave him the go ahead to bat him 7th). And I worry that Vlad will find himself playing the OF more than he should.
Jones barely played the last half of Aug and only 5 games in Sept. and Oct , so I wouldn’t say he had his playing time spread out. Vlad is a $5 mil DH. I just want Wash to remember that and not try to trot him out there in the Texas July heat for a week straight.
My issue with him and pitchers isn’t with SP, it’s with the closer and setup guys. I know he was trying to win games, but Fankie pitched like poo poo 3 days in a row. Same with CJ. But he’d trot them out there on occasion when someone else was more rested and more then capable of getting to the end. (no, not Jennings)
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch"
-Gdawg
Isn't Jones' lack of playing time a good sign?
If you’re scared that Wash is going to let an unqualified player play whether its just getting ABs or if its in the field, Wash not playing Jones should just give you more confidence that he might have some kind of clue on what he’s doing (regardless of what the LSJs and Wailing Joseys say). And Vlad isn’t going to play everyday in RF while Cruz or someone else DHs. If Wash does that and doesn’t realize how horrible it is for the team’s defense, just have faith that JD’s going to step in and fix things.
His bullpen management is definitely his biggest weakness. He puts too much trust in veterans and guys like CJ and FX2 who have more than proven themselves. It was better last year than in the past and inexperienced managers can improve just like inexperienced players; they just sometimes have to learn from their mistakes. I think not having to constantly manage for his job has helped him out as he seemed to make his worst decisions early in the 07/08 seasons when the team was struggling.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
In this case, his lack of playing time late in the season isn't good.
For Jones, the vast majority of times Wash trotted him out to the field was pretty compact and early. Looking back, he didn’t play the field at all in Oct, Sept., or Aug. And only twice in July. Which means he ran Jones out into the outfield for 130+ innings in three months (Apr, May, June) instead of seven. Plus he logged in those extra 50 innings at 1B during those first three months as well. That’s not spreading out his fielding days. That’s using them up early in the season and wearing your DH down.
Here’s to Wash learning from last year and to JD for stepping in if Mr. Kool doesn’t change.
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch"
-Gdawg
Jones' games in the field
Apr 22 7 innings in left field
Apr 23 PH and played 1 inning at first
Apr 27 8 innings in left field
Apr 28 6 innings in left field and 3 at first
Apr 30 9 innings in left field
May 1 9 innings in left field
May 3 9 innings in left field
May 5 9 innings in left field (replaced by Murphy as we won with 6 in the top of the 10th.)
May 13 11 innings in right field
May 15 9 innings in right field
May 22 6.2 innings at first base (double switched out)
May 30 9 innings in LF
June 8 1 inning at first base (pinch hit)
June 19 9 innings in LF
June 21 9 innings in LF
June 25 8.2 innings in LF (double switch)
June 27 9 innings in RF
June 28 9 innings in RF
July 3 8 innings in LF
July 19 12 innings in RF
September 30 4 innings at 1B
October 1 9 innings at 1B
October 2 7 innings at 1B
October 3 9 innings at 1B
You were wrong about him not playing the field after July 30. He played at first in 4 of the last 5 games, totalling 29 innings there. Also note that in 3 of those games in June he played 2 games at San Francisco and one at Arizona. Also the May 22 game was at Houston.
So, he spent 34.2 innings at first base between the last week of the season and road interleague play, and 5 innings as pinch hit replacements. Overall, he spent 39.2 innings at first base, 50 innings in right field (20 innings in May two games apart, 18 innings in June on back to back games, and a 12 inning game in July) He played almost 100 innings in left field with his final game on Juy 3rd.
Early in the season Blalock played a lot of DH, with Jones playing some DH and some LF. When Davis was sent down, Blalock played every game at first base until Davis was brought back up and Jones played alot of DH. At that point Jones played very little until the very end of the season (as did Blalock) with Borbon getting many of the starts at DH. When Young went down, German and Vizquel took over for two weeks, then, after they got swept by Oakland and ran their losing streak to 5, they put Davis at third and Blalock at first. By the time Young came back on the 28th, it was all over.
The point is that they didn’t wear anyone out as far as I can tell, and the loss of Young in September is probably the reason we didn’t make the play-offs.
it's tough though
you have a rookie at CF, an injury concern in LF, somebody in RF the manager doesn’t show full confidence in for some strange reason…the only rock of an outfielder we have is Murphy, unless Gentry or Boggs or somebody else makes this team
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jan 11, 2010 5:50 PM CST up reply actions
Wash hates Boggs
more than anybody else in the organization.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
I didn't know others hated Boggs
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jan 11, 2010 7:09 PM CST up reply actions
Didn't he play 2 games in the field
last year and that was it? One was against Texas and he got hurt.
"If this video was an ice cream flavor, it'd be pralines and dick." Clark
re: Matthew Wilder-Break My Stride, 4/17/09
LOL
Check the reply above yours (not in the thread, but in the tree).
R
Was that the post by Ace JC?
That’s the one to which I was replying.
"If this video was an ice cream flavor, it'd be pralines and dick." Clark
re: Matthew Wilder-Break My Stride, 4/17/09
Yeah, you're right
I was replying to a reply.
I just found it funny that you say the same thing I said right below my post :).
R
I don't know how any
ranger fan wouldn’t be onboard with this pickup. $6M for a productive DH and upgrading from Millwood to Harden. Helluva off-season for a team with no money.
some people are just natural pessimists
others are named Josey Wales.
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jan 11, 2010 3:44 PM CST up reply actions
Well, if they doubt Vlad's ability to stay healthy, then they probably wouldn't think he'd be productive.
And obviously we did have some money, seeing as how we’ve spent some and all.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
"Don't let the haircut fool you. I'm exceedingly wealthy." -Bill Gates.
by thedirkatron on Jan 11, 2010 4:30 PM CST up reply actions
crystal balling
his time on the DL before he ever plays a game is amusing to me. Specially since he is going to be a DH and all.
by corbsclinton on Jan 12, 2010 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
Yes, using past events to form an opinion about what you think might be likely to happen in the future is folly.
Hilarious folly!
I L-Oh-L just mother fucking thinking about that ass shit… Specially since he is going to be a DH and all.
LOL!!!
The 40 Trumps All!!!
"Don't let the haircut fool you. I'm exceedingly wealthy." -Bill Gates.
by thedirkatron on Jan 13, 2010 6:41 AM CST up reply actions
so how many games is he
going to play all-knowing one?
Also, could you tell me what year he was a DH the whole year with limited OF play?
How do plug that into your calculator?
by corbsclinton on Jan 13, 2010 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
He was a DH for all but two games just last year.
Morality you can fake. Fun you either have or you don't.
Are there any decent pics from the presser yet?
I wanna change my fb pic to Vlad in a Rangers jersey.
the rangers need to buy a bigger background.
and that photo is a cellphone cam or something heh, I’d like a real legit shot msyelf too.
the preceding post was a great success.
Exactly, I'd prefer one up-close that was taken professionally,
rather than with a cell phone.
under the comment you want to reply to there's a "reply" option...click it and your comment will show under the one you want to reply to.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 11, 2010 4:00 PM CST up reply actions
Did the team need to clear room on the 40
for Vlad? How about Greene?
Vladimir Guererro - 2010 AL MVP
No, we were at 39 without Vlad.
I believe he locks us up. I think Greene will take Ingletts spot?
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch"
-Gdawg
Vlad
will have a monster year at the Ballpark in Arlington. He’s always has been a Ranger killer, now he will be a Ranger killer. I guess the quote, “If you can’t beat them, join them” comes into play. This time, If you can’t beat them, have them join you.
What?
He’s always has been a Ranger killer, now he will be a Ranger killer.
It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone. You count on it, rely on it to buffer the passage of time, to keep the memory of sunshine and high skies alive, and then just when the days are all twilight, when you need it most, it stops.
He meant killer Ranger.
Since it would be the 2nd time I’ve read it.
by octoberty on Jan 11, 2010 4:48 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Vlad Guerrero also on way to becoming U.S. citizen
The newest Ranger plans on taking his citizenship test next Friday. He’s a native of the Dominican Republic.
- Anthony Andro
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
Good for him, and congratulations to him!
"I’m not in the meetings and not part of the discussions; it’s not my responsibility. . My responsibility is to go out and win tonight. My focus is to win tonight. The club has to look at more than just this year." -Michael Young
You'd think he would've gotten around to that before now, after 13 years in the majors
If the Rangers were in the playoffs... the soundtrack could be one long continuous fart, and I would love it. - cmkelly
Well, I heard he's already filed a complaint with the MLBPA about it
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.
Yah, good point.
If the Rangers were in the playoffs... the soundtrack could be one long continuous fart, and I would love it. - cmkelly
Plus,
it seriously takes about 10 years for the average permanent resident to get citizenship. That includes the years on a visa before they get their perm residency.
"If this video was an ice cream flavor, it'd be pralines and dick." Clark
re: Matthew Wilder-Break My Stride, 4/17/09
Khalil Greene still to come
General manager Jon Daniels said the signing isn’t official yet, but Greene is on his way. Manager Ron Washington expects Greene to be the utility infielder and could be the backup first baseman. Washington said he’ll get some work at first base in Surprise. David Murphy also figures to see some time at first base this spring.
- Anthony Andro
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
We now have our Davis Fail plan.
Two skinny white kids. I’m not sure how I feel about this. I really hope Murphy has gotten better at it, because Greene has been all SS and handful of 3B. His times at 3B wasn’t all that great, although it was a SSS.
Here’s to Davis removing head from ass or Smoak tearing AAA a new A-hole.
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch"
-Gdawg
or both
I wouldn’t mind having 4 OF, DH, 2 C, our infield as is with Davis the starting 1B, a backup IF, and Smoak roaming around as backup 1B/DH by the ASB
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jan 11, 2010 5:53 PM CST up reply actions
I agree.
But Smoak hasn’t quite gotten his splits to look a little better for the bigs. He’s not quite ready from everything I’ve read. So in case Davis flops out the gate (heaven forbid) we have something to fall back on until Smoak is ready to do his thing.
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch"
-Gdawg
Welcome home Big Daddy Vladdy!!! Now do your thing!!!
I did not ask you if you have herpes I said is that a hairpiece?!?
Video
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
I closed my eyes...
and Jon Daniels sounded a little like Nicolas Cage when he spoke.
by ghostofErikThompson on Jan 11, 2010 6:58 PM CST up reply actions
awwwwwkward
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jan 11, 2010 7:13 PM CST up reply actions
Could JD have made that less exciting?
You’d think he was announcing how TAG and Hawk Harrelson were in a car wreck and Hawk was the only survivor.
Remember Red, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.
Maybe he's gunning for the baseball commish job.
If the Rangers were in the playoffs... the soundtrack could be one long continuous fart, and I would love it. - cmkelly
Were you hoping they'd kick on "the final countdown" and a fog machine?
On second thought…
the preceding post was a great success.
by DShep on Jan 11, 2010 8:38 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
that would be awesome
especially if Wash all of a sudden started sinking into the floor
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jan 11, 2010 9:28 PM CST up reply actions
Newberg
Until the presser ended, and he stepped down from the head table, and got bear hugs from three new teammates who’d been standing in the back of the room during the whole presser, along with one old teammate. From the look on Vlad’s face as he hugged it out with Josh Hamilton, then Michael Young, then Ian Kinsler, and then Darren Oliver, you’d think these were his old frat brothers, not longtime rivals. It wasn’t an exchange of respect as much as it was a "welcome aboard / damn glad to be here" thing, with a bigger smile frozen on Guerrero’s face than you’ll probably ever see from him between the lines. It was very cool.
It’s what I choose to imagine we’ll see a year from now when Josh Beckett is introduced to the local press.
I’ve always assumed this would eventually happen as well
well the my/kins/hammy part is the video i want to see heh..
As far as beckett, I wonder what kidn of contract hes going to get.. assuming Greenberg does go through we still probably won’t have all that much money.
the preceding post was a great success.
Ah, fresh Newbergian hype.
It is kind of exciting though ain’t it?
If the Rangers were in the playoffs... the soundtrack could be one long continuous fart, and I would love it. - cmkelly
Please no Beckett
Too injury prone and too expensive.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Jeff Weaver was really good in the postseason too
Lets go sign him!
If the Rangers were in the playoffs... the soundtrack could be one long continuous fart, and I would love it. - cmkelly
"Every Indian feels that where the ball is, there he should be, and though they do not altogether abandon an instinctive disposition, the glory of Lacrosse to them is in the exciting chases after the ball. The Indian village game was not intellectual enough for the whites, and needed systematizing; but never let this improvement be carried to such extreme as to spoil its extemporaneous peculiarities of fielding, and the general free character, which distinguishes it above all other field games."
"Nothing we do here has a point" - Czar Morris
by inactive lsb user on Jan 11, 2010 10:06 PM CST up reply actions
Did you really just compare Jeff Weaver to Josh Beckett?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Uh that was a pretty obvious joke
In response to OC’s crack about Beckett in the playoffs.
If the Rangers were in the playoffs... the soundtrack could be one long continuous fart, and I would love it. - cmkelly
Beckett
Beckett has averaged 30 starts and 194 IP per season over the last 5 years. He has posted FIPs of 3.63, 3.24, 3.08, 5.12, 3.27, 3.59, 2.94, and 3.69, for a career average of 3.61.
He has been worth over 20 million per season according to fangraphs for the last three years running. If we overpaid for Beckett next off-season, I wouldn’t lose too much sleep over it. And I would be very happy with such an acquisition if our payroll is expanded under Greenberg’s watch. Plus, given the teams window for contention, he’d be a prime target to put the team over the top.
by Stephen Rushin on Jan 11, 2010 10:12 PM CST up reply actions
Why do people keep using Fangraphs dollar values to decide how much to pay a player?
What they need to do is base the dollar values compared to the highest player in the league. A player’s only worth what someone is willing to pay and if no one is willing to pay more than 20 million in 2009 for a pitcher, I’m not going to buy into Greinke being worth 40+ million dollars. Those values are nothing more than a another way at looking at a player’s WAR and have very little meaning in determining if a player is worth his contract.
Back to Beckett though, averaging 30 starts a season for the past 5 years isn’t going to make me any more confident that a 31 year old pitcher isn’t going to have any significant injury problems. He’s also considered to be an ace caliber pitcher, but doesn’t pitch like one. I’m not saying that he’s a bad pitcher or anything like that. He’s a very good pitcher and is probably a borderline number 1 starter, but he’s still going to look to get paid like an ace next offseason and he’s not getting better from here.
With the caliber of pitching prospects the Rangers have coming through the system and the caliber of pitching talent currently in the rotation, is it really worth spending 15+ million a year on a pitcher like Beckett when he’s 31 and up? If you want experience on the staff, I’m comfortable with a guy like Feldman or paying to keep Harden around for at least another season or two. If you’re not a fan of that, you can always make a trade for a guy like Lee or Halladay. Great veteran pitchers nearing FA are always available and the Rangers have the ammo to make any deal happen without giving up Scheppers or Perez (and maybe even keeping Main).
I’m a bit surprised that Jamey wants Beckett here and thinks its going to happen. Feliz, Holland, Scheppers, Perez, Main, and Gutierrez are all high ceiling pitchers and by 2011, will be either establishing themselves as top pitching or just starting to do so. Given 6 pitchers like that, the odds are pretty good that the Rangers end up with some ace talent out of the bunch. Then you got the guys like Hunter, Harrison, Hurley, Kiker, Mendoza (just for you AJM), etc. who can round out that staff for cheap. There are better ways to spend that money than on Beckett.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Jan 11, 2010 10:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec-eriffic
You’ve crystallized my thoughts into words.
"Ho visto il tuo agire, non solo rendono per me. Basta un sacco di fluff".
A couple of things:
(1) Beckett does pitch like an ace caliber starter. Roy Halladay has a career FIP of 3.47. CC Sabathia has a career FIP of 3.59. Felix Hernandez has a career FIP of 3.54. Justin Verlander has a career FIP of 3.78. Jon Lester has a career FIP of 3.78. Rich Harden has a career FIP of 3.58.
Beckett by comparison, has a career an FIP of 3.61. he is in the same neighborhood as those starters. He is a very, very good starter. He is Rich Harden, but with a decent track record in terms of health.
(2) We cannot just “trade for a guy like Lee or Halladay” without giving up a boat load of prospects and paying a hefty salary. Beckett would only cost one first round pick. I think it is a little naive to suggest that we can find an ace caliber pitcher so easily without giving up one of our top prospects.
(3) I think it is overly optimistic to expect that our rotation in 2011 will be exclusively comprised of Holland, Feliz, Hunter, Scheppers, Main, etc, and maybe Feldman/Harden. And if you are going to invest in a starter, it makes more sense to spend 17 million on an ace caliber pitcher like Beckett than 10 million on a Kevin Millwood type starter. Beckett is an absolutely terrific starter.
(4) In terms of health, I don’t see what else you can reliably look to except track record. He had some health problems early in his career, and some blister problems. But he has been about as durable as anyone the last five years. Anytime you give a 31 year old player a 5-7 year contract, you assume some risk. I think that risk is substantially lower when you invest in a player with a reasonably strong track record.
I would agree though, that you might be concerned with how Beckett would age. That is a very legitimate issue to consider and depending on scouting and research, might affect my opinion.
(5) The fangraph salary amounts are not perfect, especially in this economy. So far this offseason, teams have paid around $3.5 million per WAR, according to Beyond the Boxscore. That number is lower than previous years, so the current salary adjustments are a little off.
But using this offseason as a blue print, Beckett is valued at around $18.6, $17.5, and $22.8 million the last three years. (assuming 3.5 million per WAR) Sure, the fangraph values are a little off at the extremes in most cases. You aren’t going to pay Greinke, Lincecum, or Pujols 35-40+ million. But, they are still a useful tool that reinforce a players value.
Basically, I think regardless of what measure you use (WAR, fangraphs salary, etc), Beckett has been worth 17-20+ million per year the last three seasons. He should, and will get a contract larger than Lackey/Burnett.
Ultimately, Beckett is far better than people give him credit for here. He is one of the best starters in the league over the last several years, hands down. And regardless of what people say, teams cannot easily trade for a Halladay/Lee type without giving up top prospects and assuming a large contract. I think that since this teams window of contention is now open, it could make sense to invest in a player like Beckett next season and roll with something like Beckett, Feldman, Holland, Feliz, and Hunter.
by Stephen Rushin on Jan 11, 2010 11:19 PM CST up reply actions
I've quote Fangraphs $ Values
because it’s a decent way to measure what a player might be worth in real dollars.
However, I usually use it for 1 year deals and the like, because with multi-year deals, you have to worry about the risk-factor in giving them a deal which is a freak injury away from being worthless.
Other than that, as I said before to Gdawg, what else are you going to use to try and value contracts that would be more accurate?
He still hasn’t responded.
R
The Fangraphs thing in respone to Stephen and Requiem
I don’t think real dollars is that important in baseball. What does it tell you that a rookie was worth 10 million when no matter how well he played, he was still not going to make more than a few hundred thousand dollars.
The huge difference in pre-FA salaries vs. FA salaries also screws up any kind of dollar value system. I think their system would be better off using the biggest salary for a year for a pitcher and position player as the maximum dollar value and going from their in proportion to that. That would give a more accurate value and avoid having 17 pitchers being worth more than 20 million dollars. But like I said, that still doesn’t make the system that relevant since you have so many players making less than a million dollars. All it really does is give you a different way to look at WAR, but it unfortunately also leads many people to use it as a nearly foolproof way of saying whether or not a player was worth his contract. That’s not what the system tells you and it shouldn’t be used that way.
What I do to value contracts is look at how much they’re getting paid relative to the league vs. where they rank relative to the league. I don’t think you need an exact system to tell you that a player who has a top 10 salary and is a top 10 player is worth that contract nor do you need a system to tell you a guy like Evan Longoria was a great bargain for the Rays in his rookie season.
In the end, you’re worth what someone is willing to pay you. Teams overpay all the time for players that they need even though they know that they likely won’t be worth the contract. That’s what the FA system does. If the Rangers really needed Josh Beckett and overpaid by 10 million dollars because that’s the only way to get him, then that’s what he’s worth to the Rangers. And just looking at a player’s stats doesn’t tell the whole story of how much a player is worth. A guy like Vlad is going to have a hell of a lot more of an impact on overall revenues than a guy like Ryan Garko even if they give you the same WAR.
And really, did you just write “He still hasn’t responded”? Jesus, get over yourself.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I think those are all really fair points
the only thing I would add is that I think the fangraphs stats are only created to help evaluate whether a player is compensated adequately relative to their real value to their team regarding on the field performance. Obviously, other factors will play a big role (teams needs, the present market, etc), but I think they are a reasonable, albeit definitely imperfect, starting point.
by Stephen Rushin on Jan 12, 2010 1:32 AM CST up reply actions
one more thing...
Despite any flaws, I still I think it is about the best tool out there to turn WAR into a dollar amount, even if it is imperfect.
by Stephen Rushin on Jan 12, 2010 1:33 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not arguing that there's something better
Just that I don’t see the point in using it and that I hate how often its misused here and even on Fangraphs.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
It is sometimes misused, but still a good valuator.
It should not of course be used to say a player should be signed to a contract with that exact dollar amount. But it is a very good way to compare relative values, one player to another. Some players might actually get more than their WAR dollar value in free agency, while younger players for the most part will get less, of course.
I think the large number of younger players depressed the dollar value teams pay per win, and this skews our perception of the fangraphs figure, which then looks too high. If all players were on the market, that value would be more accurate.
The dollar value is for the win, not the player. A team looking to up their win total in the upper 80s or lower 90s can pay more for that win, and that’s the climate we must judge the Vlad signing in.
I didn’t read every word you guys already posted about this, so pardon if I’m repeating.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
If all players were on the market...
That’s one of my problems with it. That’s never going to be the case with how baseball and their FA system are structured.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
"Get over yourself"
That’s a hoot. Coming from someone who seems to becoming more and more bigsteve-esque.
I asked you a question, and you didn’t respond as to what was better. At least you answered this time. I still think your “solution” isn’t really a solution.
What if the top 10 players were paid $100 million+ each and then the rest were paid $500K each? Would it really not matter to value WHAT these players contribute? Of course it would matter. THAT is why we try to put a price on it.
Can you essentially say that the measuring sticks are pretty crude? Sure. Does that preclude us from TRYING to measure it? No, it does not.
This argument seems similar to the defensive discussion we (as in the baseball community) were having a couple of years back. Many people kept saying that the defensive stats weren’t good enough, so we shouldn’t even bother to try and measure them.
But look now. The defensive stats have improved to where we get an ok measure of a player’s defensive value, and it wouldn’t have happened if people had all been like you and said “it’s not worth trying to measure.”
As to your other suggestion, it might be an alternative, but on the whole I can see it getting skewed too much by outliers.
R
When the hell did you ask me anything?
You responded to my post after Stephen responded and said I still haven’t responded. If you didn’t notice, I took a little time in responding to Stephen because he did make a valid argument and at no point, did either of us take a shot at each other. You on the other hand chime in and are apparently so desperate for a response from me, you can’t wait a little. And as hard as it is to believe, I do other things that don’t revolve around making sure you get as quick of a response as possible. At no time did I choose to answer your question or not respond as to what was better.
If you want a defensive stats analogy, these values are basically like going from fielding percentage to something like range factor and even that is giving the stat too much credit for giving you new information. If people were like I am with the value system for defensive stats, then they woudln’t have settled for using weak defensive stats as any kind of accurate way to judge a player’s defense. They would have done exactly what they did and find a system that actually measures a player’s defensive value in a realistic and applicable way.
All these values are is a player’s WAR in dollars rather than wins. RAR, WAR, and these dollar values all tell you the exact same thing in different metrics except a player’s value in dollars is not the same thing as a player’s value in wins and runs on the field. And its used by people like you as a black and white way of determining if a player was “worth” his contract.
And if you think my “solution” (I really appreciate you putting solution in quotes), isn’t much of a solution, care to explain why? Why is putting a limit on a player’s maximum dollar value wrong? Do you really think that a player can be worth 40+ million when the market clearly won’t pay that much? If the market isn’t willing to pay a player 40 million in a certain year, than there is no way for a player to be worth a 40 million dollar salary for that year.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I'll go point by point since its easier to respond that way
1. FIP isn’t everything. Its one metric to use to look at how a pitcher has pitched. Also looking at career averages doesn’t account for peak performances. Beckett’s top 3 ERA+ seasons are 145, 138, and then there’s a drop to 122. A guy like Halladay? He’s had 3 seasons with an ERA+ below that 122 mark—120 ERA+, 115 ERA+, and a 48 ERA+ in a partial season when he was 23. His FIPs, xFIPs, tRAs all tell a similar story. Halladay has had 5 seasons in his career with an FIP right around 3 or less. Beckett has had only 2. Again, similar DIPS show the same thing.
Its a similar story with CC. Over his career, he’s got a similar FIP to Beckett, but over the past 4 or so years, there’s little doubt in my mind on who the better pitcher is and that’s what makes CC an ace. Lester has only had 2 full seasons in the Majors, one of which was similar to his current career averages and of course last season’s which was much better (according to defensive-independent stats and not ERA+). Verlander also doesn’t have too lengthy of a career so far, but if those 269 Ks in 240 IP last season are a sign of things to come, there’s also going to be little doubt about who the better pitcher is between him and Beckett. Harden’s injuries pretty much disqualify him from ever being a real ace pitcher, but he’s got it in him to pitch like one.
2. Aces can be had for relatively cheap through a trade. If you’re fine with a half season of an ace, the Brewers were able to get CC for only Matt LaPorta, A great 1B prospect, but nothing that hurts a system like the Rangers too much and is definitely worth the price for a contending team. Lee was traded for a nice little package to the Phillies last year, but it was also not a package that would cripple this system. Using BA’s rankings, they gave up the #52 prospect in baseball, , the #66 prospect, the #69 prospect, and the 10th best prospect in their system (unranked nationally). That’s just preseason rankings since Carrasco, Marson, and Donald’s stock were all dropping in 09 compared to where they were. Right now, Marson is 4th in the Indians system, Carrasco is 8th, and Donald isn’t ranked. These are just 2 examples of top pitchers who could be had for a pretty reasonable price in prospects and are a better fit for the kind of pitcher and contract this team should look to add. Rich Harden a couple of seasons ago was traded for crap. Its obvious that the injuries scared Beane into trading him too early rather than too late, but that’s the kind of gamble the Rangers can easily take.
You’ve also seen what Lee and Halladay went for this offseason. The Rangers could have gotten either one of those pitchers if they had the money to pay them and wouldn’t have had to give up anything near a system crippling package. TORP aren’t always that expensive in a trade if the timing is right.
3. I’m not saying that all those guys will make it, but I think its pretty reasonable to see that group of pitchers and have a pretty good 1-2-3. Guys like Main and Perez also might not be ready by then or haven’t adjusted yet to the Majors, but you don’t need to have a rotation filled with aces each year. Maybe our top pitching talent doesn’t fully come together in 2011 or is set back a little. Then what about 2012 or 2013? This system is rich with elite pitching talent and a defense that can turn a back of the rotation guy into a mid rotation guy. TINSTAAP and all that doesn’t make scare me off from that enough to want to pay out the ass for Beckett and make that long-term commitment.
I’m also not advocating bringing in someone like Millwood. The only FA pitchers this team should be looking at, if they really want to go that route, is to go with guys like Harden or Sheets (potential bargain aces) or get a guy like Millwood if the commitment is something like 2 years. I don’t think this team really needs the Millwood type now and I think that need is going to be even smaller for the foreseeable future.
4. Beckett’s past injuries will always scare me. When you’re handing out a contract like the one I expect him to get, you better be sure that you’re getting a guy who can give you over 200 good innings a season. I just can’t see that from Beckett. All his recent track record shows is that he’s been able to average 30 starts a season during his prime years.
Beckett is a very good pitcher, but he still isn’t an ace pitcher. Think of it like a HOF argument. How often was Beckett a top 5-10 guy in the Majors? Was he consistently one of the elite guys or was he just a guy who was consistently one of the top 25 pitchers in baseball? Those guys are great to have on your team, but not if its going to be for something like 17 million a year.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Just a few more things...
and I’ll go point by point as well:
(1) I strongly disagree with you on this point. Regardless of what statistic you use (FIP, xFIP, K/BB ratio, etc), Beckett is one of the top 5-10 pitchers in the AL consistently. And I think it is a little disingenuous to say that Beckett hasn’t been consistent. Really, he has had one mediocre year in his entire career (2006). And even in that season, his xFIP was 4.39.
So rather than FIP, lets use another one of the stats you recommend like xFIP. In terms of xFIP, Becket ranked 5th in the AL in 2009, 2nd in 2008, and 3rd in 2007. So in the last three years, he ranked in the top 5 in xFIP every single season. In terms of WAR, he has ranked 2nd (2007), 8th (2008), and 7th (2009) in the AL. Finally, if we use K/BB ratio, Becket has ranked 5th (2009), 2nd (2008), and 3rd (2007) in the AL.
So using any defensive neutral pitching statistic, Beckett has been about as good as it gets over the last several years. As for consistency, his xFIP and FIP have been under 3.7 every year in the majors, except 2006. I would argue that 7 outstanding seasons in 8 year is about as consistent as get.
Further, I think FIP and xFIP are probably the best available statistics for measuring a pitchers ability. And FIP and xFIP are much better statistics than ERA/ERA+, in my opinion.
(2) I don’t believe that Halladay and Lee are examples that aces are readily available during the off-season and at the trading deadline. Regardless of how much you have to give up in terms of players (we can agree to disagree on that matter), it is still undoubtedly more than a single first round pick.
Second, those players often have to waive their no-trade clause, or require a large extension to do so (see Halladay). Thus you aren’t necessarily saving money.
Third, you mention that trading for an ace isn’t too problematic if the timing is right. But Texas has a limited window over the next three seasons or so in which they can contend for a title. You have to work with the cards you are dealt. I think it is a little risky to rely upon another Cliff Lee to be available next season, without giving up Perez, Scheppers, or Smoak.
And not to mention, the Cliff Lee deal was absolute coup for Seattle, not something I expect the Rangers to replicate going forward. And many sources reported Halladay planned to veto any trade to Texas (plus he wanted a 20+ million per year extension). Also LaPorta is the equivalent of Smoak, and LaPorta only netted a couple month of Sabathia.
(3) We don’t need to belabor this point further. I understand what you are saying, I just think we will be a little further back in terms of development in 2011 than you are predicting (we can agree to disagree there). I still think 17+ million on Beckett, given the projected roster composition in 2011, wouldn’t be a bad investment.
(4) Again, no need to belabor this point. I just think he isn’t any bigger of a health risk than Millwood/Lackey/etc.
Ultimately, we just view Beckett differently. I think all the empirical evidence demonstrates he is an ace pitcher. Absent one single year (2006), he has been a top 5-10 pitcher in the league year in and year out, in terms of FIP, xFIP, K/BB, and other defensive neutral statistics. I think he ranks in the same class as Sabathia/Verlander/Lester, and he is not that much worse than Roy Halladay. I think he could make a heck of a lot of sense for this team, but I do agree that concerns over how he will age are legitimate.
by Stephen Rushin on Jan 12, 2010 1:17 AM CST up reply actions
I should mention
I think the chance of Texas signing Beckett are very minimal. I doubt, even under Greenberg, we will have the resources to make such an acquisition. It is probably far more likely that Texas will follow the path you suggested. And they can still find success that way, for sure. It will be interesting to see what happens with his contract extension negotiations.
by Stephen Rushin on Jan 12, 2010 1:28 AM CST up reply actions
heh, I'm pretty sure no one but us is going to actually read this
1) In the AL, he may have been that good and I’m not going to argue that the AL is tougher than the NL to pitch in, but the number of true aces in the league are small enough where I don’t think its right to look at only one league. Someone like Tim Lincecum is still an ace if he pitches in the AL. Its understandable to discount their stats a bit since they do get the advantage of not facing a DH, but I don’t think we should completely disregard it.
As for the stats to use, I think ERA+ has its uses when compared with the defensive independent stats. Those stats don’t and simply can’t account for every aspect of a pitcher’s game and to certain extents, simplify what a pitcher does since that can’t be accounted for. ERA+ is the best form of ERA there is and sooner or later, a pitcher is going to have to show the results in the surface stats to back up his DIPS. I might be wrong, but it looks like this is where we disagree the most about Beckett. His xFIP has been great, but it doesn’t take into account the number of innings he’s pitched in addition to the problems surrounding any DIPS. His 08 season for instance was only 174 IP. His 07 was great, no arguing that, but that was his only recent season where he was able to have his DIPS match his surface stats.
And not that its that important, but isn’t the K/BB ratio kind of pointless if we’re talking about stats like FIP and xFIP?
2) Each year, there are guys like Lee and Halladay who are elite pitchers that are nearing FA. Teams either lock these types of pitchers up or look to trade them for some prospects rather than take the draft pick. This past year, its been Halladay, Peavy, and Lee. Before that, it was Sabathia, Santana, Haren, and Harden. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of anyone else before that and there might not be many choices, but the trend is growing for teams to get packages for these pitchers and with the rising value of prospects, its cheaper and cheaper to trade for them (though still not always cheap).
The Rangers are starting to become a more respected team. If they start contending and have a great defense to help pitchers out, players will start to waive their no trade clause to come here. That’s happening sooner rather than later. A contract extension also isn’t always that bad of a deal. Its easier to be the only team negotiating with a player rather than try to compete with the east and west coast teams.
I think you’re dead wrong on their window to compete. The farm system is going to be one of the best if not the best system in baseball again this year and barring a catastrophe will be again next year. That’s more than bragging rights. That’s a pipeline of young talent that the Rangers can call on when their current roster start to decline. And most of the players on this roster aren’t going to disappear in three years. The window isn’t closing any time soon.
And I’m not convinced the Rangers even need to go this route in the near future. I’m pretty confident in the pitching talent this system is developing. A guy like Lee or Sabathia is just to help push the team over the top in the playoffs. Sure, its risky to make a deal for a kind of guy like that and the price might be higher than you’re willing to go, but there is a benefit in not having the long-term commitment and an untradeable contract. Also, as great a prospect as Smoak is, he is replaceable like any single prospect in this system. In the end, its still just a 1B that this team might not even need with Davis around. And if the price is any one of Perez, Main, Feliz, Holland, Scheppers (plus whatever lesser prospect like a Poveda or Beavan), there’s still the other guys I named that could easily make up for that loss.
3) 17 million might not be bad for Beckett then, but what about 2 years from then? Is he still going to be worth 17 million per year in the final years of his contract? No pitcher, no matter how great, is ever any kind of a safe investment once you get into the FA years. There’s just too many miles on the arm and the healthy ones are the ones that are most likely just lucky to not have a major injury until they reach FA. The guys like Halladay who can pitch for years and get over 200 IP like its nothing are rare. You take a huge risk with these contracts and that money would be better used making sure that you keep guys like Feliz and Holland here through age 30 or so.
4) Guys like Lackey and Millwood aren’t exactly great bets to be innings-eaters either. They have their moments, but they aren’t anything near a guy like Roy Halladay. Again, this is what scares me off from wanting to see the Rangers make a pricey long term commitment to a FA pitcher. Not when they no longer are desperate for pitching.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
No offense, but you are correct
in assuming you would be the only ones to read your posts. heh
I"m sure there were valid points by both, but between reading War and Peace and these posts, I picked the shorter of the two and read the book.
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch"
-Gdawg
by AceJC on Jan 12, 2010 10:35 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Quote
Where did that Newberg quote come from???
by bigOhornedfrog on Jan 11, 2010 10:09 PM CST up reply actions
I Understand it was Jamey's quote
where did you find the quote… he didn’t send out a flash or anything
by bigOhornedfrog on Jan 12, 2010 12:04 AM CST up reply actions
The most recent Newberg Report
Not online yet, but sent via email this afternoon.
by Stephen Rushin on Jan 12, 2010 12:18 AM CST up reply actions
Worse to see...Texiera in Angel/Yankee uniform or Guererro in Ranger uniform
From each sides perspective. And I swear this reminds me of the Major League 2 signing of that White Sox catcher. But by that logic Hicks will buy the team back and Michael Young will punch out CJ Wilson after we win the pennant.
I still believe!
I'd pay to see what CJ would do to MY's ass after the first blow though.
If the Rangers were in the playoffs... the soundtrack could be one long continuous fart, and I would love it. - cmkelly

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