Differentiating between levels of sourcing
The Atlantic's Marc Ambinder has a post up on his blog that deals with the different types of conversations a writer or reporter can have with sources. As Ambinder explains:
In the reporter/source Talmud, there are ostensibly four categories of information: On the Record, On Background, On Deep Background, Off the Record.
Ambinder goes into some detail about all of these areas, along with a potential fifth category, but in a nutshell, he breaks it down thusly:
On the Record -- You can use it and specifically identify the person who said it. "Jon Daniels says the team's internal defensive metrics show that Derek Jeter is the best defensive shortstop in baseball." *
* It shouldn't be necessary to point this out, but to be clear -- this is a hypothetical example. Jon Daniels hasn't, to my knowledge, said this, and I have no idea what the team's defensive metrics say about shortstops.
On Background -- You can use it, but have to be non-specific about the identity of the source. "A Rangers official says the team's internal defensive metrics show that Derek Jeter is the best defensive shortstop in baseball."
On Deep Background -- You can use it, but can't link it to the source in any way, and won't use it unless you are willing to put your reputation on the line based on what the source says. "The Rangers' internal defensive metrics show that Derek Jeter is the best defensive shortstop in baseball."
Off the Record -- You can't use it.
Ambinder talks about the confusion that sets in when "On Deep Background" and "Off the Record" get conflated, and the reality, as Ambinder notes, is that any information given to a reporter can influence what he writes. In the above example, the "Off the Record" info could result in the writer saying, "While stathead orthodoxy suggests that Derek Jeter is a bad defensive shortstop, some teams could feel otherwise, based on their own statistical analysis."
In any case, this got me thinking about the occasional discussions that crop up here, particularly when controversial stories get out, about whether or not baseball writers should use anonymous sources.
A few folks take the rather extreme position that no writer, baseball or otherwise, should use anonymous sources...if a source isn't willing to put his name out there in connection with the information, it shouldn't be written.
Now, obvious problem #1 is that, if that were to truly be adopted, we'd have no trade rumors ever reported. We'd have a lot less reporting on evaluation of players. There would be much, much less information out there for sports fans.
Would that be a good thing, really? If we eliminated everything but what Ambinder classifies as "On the Record," then not only are we losing the "an A.L. front office exec says the Blue Jays want the cloning rights to Albert Pujols in exchange for Roy Halladay" stuff, but also more nuanced stories. When Evan Grant or T.R. Sullivan writes, "The Rangers are interested in Jermaine Dye," there is no specific source that is named or alluded to...but at the end of the day, Grant or Sullivan is relying on anonymous sources just as much as the Pujols clone story guy. And that eliminates much of the value that the beat reporters can offer the fan.
Still, it seems like that these "softer" unsourced reports that clearly rely on sources cause less controversy, and I doubt that even the most dogmatic of the "don't use anonymous sources" folks really want Jeff Wilson to avoid saying in a column that, for example, the Rangers are still looking for catching help unless he states that he got that information directly from Daniels or Thad Levine or Nolan Ryan or whomever. It is when the information is "sourced" in an indirect way that folks get bent out of shape.
But why? What harm is there in, for example, a writer quoting "an N.L. West scout" as saying that Martin Perez has the best fastball in the Texas League? And as a corollary, why can't people understand why people quoted anonymously in these sorts of articles can't go on the record? Scouts are going to get fired if they go on the record with their evaluations, front office types can be fined for tampering and probably don't want their individual opinions to be public knowledge, and expecting A.J. Preller or whomever to be willing to have his name used in connection with some tidbit like that is unrealistic.
So what is really acceptable on these sorts of sourcing issues? To me, it is just a matter of knowing who the writer in question is, and judging the reliability on that...because at the end of the day, a writer who runs with bad info is ultimately going to lose credibility.
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Very cool info for us not in the know.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 12, 2010 7:29 PM CST reply actions
With much less time these days
between writing and publication, and many more less formal outlets like blogs and Twitter, there’s a lot less checking of sources and editing going on. It’s easy for some stuff that might not have been put in print previously to make its way onto a web page or tweet and cause trouble. I think that sort of thing will shake out eventually a bit, but the culture is just much more immediate and much less structured than it was in terms of news gathering/reporting.
Some guys are trying to hard to scoop the story (the reporter version of “first!”), and there are so many reports and rumors floating around that occasionally we can lose track of a story’s lineage. The news cycle is ridiculously short now.
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OT: I'm glad we don't get a bunch of firsties on here
I used to lurk at the AV Club, but that stuff got way too annoying real fast
meta-signature
OT. I still really hate Grady Fuson
The Rangers passed on the more expensive Scott Kazmir to take Drew Meyer at No. 10 and sign him for an under-slot $1.875 million in 2002, but that was strictly a talent decision. Scouting director Grady Fuson didn’t want to take a high school pitcher (Kazmir) that high in the draft and loved Meyer more than the industry consensus.
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
So that's somewhere
between on the record and on background?
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I plead the 5th, dammit.
"Every Indian feels that where the ball is, there he should be, and though they do not altogether abandon an instinctive disposition, the glory of Lacrosse to them is in the exciting chases after the ball. The Indian village game was not intellectual enough for the whites, and needed systematizing; but never let this improvement be carried to such extreme as to spoil its extemporaneous peculiarities of fielding, and the general free character, which distinguishes it above all other field games."
"Nothing we do here has a point" - Czar Morris
-- Air Hogs are closer to home, but the Cats had Scherzer!
by inactive lsb user on Jan 12, 2010 7:48 PM CST reply actions
You sure like The Atlantic.
You should read Megan McArdle and Jeffrey Goldberg instead of Ambinder and Sullivan.
"Blalock in the cleanup spot makes gives me agita." - Dustin
Here's what needs to happen (and it'll make some business a shitload of money)
So consider all of this ©, trademarked and whatever else I can do. Some news service needs to create a rating system for how accurate a reporter’s anonymous sources are. When Heyman says “team X and team Y in heavy bidding war for services of pitcher Z” let’s know how accurate he is. That could force reporters to be a little more accountable instead of being shills for agents and teams.
Remember Red, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.
That would be great
But who would pay for it? It’s not like corporations who have to allow their debt to be rated so they can take on more debt.
Why would anybody go there when they know they're going to get sanctioned?
Lane Kiffin is probably the best case scenario for USC.
We need to not always make hard work out of sex- Rick Carlisle.
My theory is Kiffin took the job because, though USC may have issues, but he probably dug Tennessee an even bigger hole
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
by WestTxAg06 on Jan 12, 2010 9:02 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
So is Leach going to Tennessee?
Now that would be amazing. Tennesee gets completly raped by Kiffen by him bolting and gutting the staff and probably recruits.
I mean, how much worse could Tenn get? Leach would love to have that stadium rocking with that passing game. Could you imagine Leach, Urban, The Ol’ Ball Coach, Les Miles, and Saban all in the same conference? Prime comedy. You thought Kiffens press conferences were bad…
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch"
-Gdawg
No shot...
Supposedly Muschamp was their first call…
Leach, great as I think he is, isn’t getting a job like that in the SEC…
No way Muschamp makes that move...
He’s got dibs on the Texas job and has a much easier time putting together a defense in Austin than he would at TN.
by Mike the Grate on Jan 12, 2010 10:41 PM CST up reply actions
And when is he getting the Texas job?
2 years? 5 years? 10? Nobody knows.
Tennessee is a premium job in the best conference in the country, the conference he played and built his career from… He can always come back to Texas.
I’d understand if he decided to pass, but it’s not like Tennessee is a step down…
Tennessee used to be an elite program...
But LSU, Alabama and Florida have left it in the dust in the last five years. I would rather hold on for the Texas job, which is back to being an elite program.
by Mike the Grate on Jan 12, 2010 10:50 PM CST up reply actions
There aren't 20 better jobs anywhere in the country...
Tennessee was well on its way with Kiffin.. That is still an elite job.
Maybe I just don't want to lose Muschamp!
People are nuts for him down here.
by Mike the Grate on Jan 12, 2010 10:59 PM CST up reply actions
Better gear up...
Lots of smoke that it’s done and he’ll be announced tomorrow…
He does have a press conf scheduled for tomorrow
but I don’t have any sources that can confirm that he’s leaving. Great pick-up for TN if it’s true. I’d rather see Leach there just for the entertainment value of Leach at a bigger name school.
by Mike the Grate on Jan 12, 2010 11:11 PM CST up reply actions
Lane Kiffin is a significantly better hire...
Than JDR or Steve Mariucci would have been…
And...
How big a smug, arrogant grease ball is Lane Kiffin? Ugh… I think he’s a great football coach, but he makes Urban Meyer and Nick Saban look warm and cuddly…
What makes you think he's a great football coach?
by brettgardner on Jan 12, 2010 10:59 PM CST up reply actions
Because he's been very successful at USC in the past...
Because he made Jonathan Crompton look like a servicable QB this year on a team with relatively untalented receiver in a premium conference.. Because he did a good job at UTk this year given the circumstances… Because he took a team with significantly less talent and gave the two best teams in this country EVERYTHING they could handle on the road… Because he pulled together a Top 10 recruiting class last year LATE in the process.. And because he had another Top 5ish class put together this year…
Hiring his dad as his defensive coordinator certainly helps his cause… He got railed by Al Davis. I see nothing to suggest he’s not a very good football coach…
He got railed by Al Davis?!
I hate Davis as much as anyone, but if anything, this newest stunt by Kiffin might actually demonstrate that Al was correct in what he said about Kiffin. And the thought that crazy old guy could be right makes me a little sick.
Remember Red, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.
I've been hearing this argument for the last two days
You’re seriously going to put that he didn’t lose that badly against good teams as a positive on his resume?
And maybe he’s a really good recruiter. That’s just one facet of being a college coach. Although didn’t a couple of his top recruits fucking rob a store at gunpoint?
by brettgardner on Jan 13, 2010 4:19 PM CST up reply actions
He was a huge part of their mid '00's machine at USC
If he really is taking Chow and Orgeron with him, they’ll be fine.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jan 13, 2010 7:23 AM CST up reply actions
Seems like USC
Wants them as part of the deal. And if you have to rely solely on your coordinators to be worth anything, that’s not saying much for you.
by brettgardner on Jan 13, 2010 4:20 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think anyone said he's relying solely on his coordinators
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jan 14, 2010 9:30 AM CST up reply actions
You didn't
But that’s the impression I’ve gotten from others defending the move.
by brettgardner on Jan 14, 2010 9:44 AM CST up reply actions
gotcha
USC seems to have a strong inclination towards guys they “know.” It’s like they treat their football program as a fraternity.
Kiffin/Orgeron are pretty damn good recruiters. With a good scheme on both sides of the ball, they’ll still be a good team. Will they have another dynasty run like the mid ’00’s? Doubt it. Kiffin is too much of a dumbass to let that happen.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jan 14, 2010 9:50 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, probably
It will depend alot on if Barkley improves or not. I’m sure he will.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jan 14, 2010 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
Yep, I'm counting on it.
And if he gets a great 1st year in the book, those 5 stars will keep on coming. I’m excited to see what Monte does with that talent.
We need something interesting to discuss.
I was hoping to hit the 35,000 comment mark tonight.
If the Rangers were in the playoffs... the soundtrack could be one long continuous fart, and I would love it. - cmkelly
Go hurlerhurley on us and just answer your self
You should get there by the end of the night.
Josey Wales born on LSB July 18, 2006 Jumped the shark--That glorious day in 2008. RIP Josey Wales.
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
I do tend to have pretty interesting conversations with myself.
If the Rangers were in the playoffs... the soundtrack could be one long continuous fart, and I would love it. - cmkelly
Perhaps you and AJM can discuss who should bat 6th and 7th?
And the importance of a R-L-R-L lineup. Again.
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch"
-Gdawg
We could discuss the moral and ethical issues surrounding the recent controversy involving a certain St. Louis Cardinal
I for one am really not sure I’m okay with Pujols’ cloning rights being shopped around.
by Basehead on Jan 12, 2010 9:04 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
How about debating Khalil Greene's defensive numbers and his possible offensive upside?
If the Rangers were in the playoffs... the soundtrack could be one long continuous fart, and I would love it. - cmkelly
I'm in.
Defensively: I like him at 1B. I think he can succeed there and hopefully he will want to make the move. He wasn’t exactly a sound SS, so maybe this will help. He can also spell 3B for MY 4 games of the year and can cover Elvis, which is nice.
Offensively: Ugh. He K’s almost 4 times the amount he walks. Boo. Not what this team needs. But he showed in ‘07 he has some pop. Hopefully he is healthy and with a move to 1B, can imagine himself focusing on his power and bringing down his K rate. (I know, that’s pretty much an oxymoron.) But the versatility is what we’re going for here right?
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch"
-Gdawg
Yeah, a versatile yet unspectacular defender with some pop is all we can really hope for
But if we can get that for 750k it’s a steal.
If the Rangers were in the playoffs... the soundtrack could be one long continuous fart, and I would love it. - cmkelly
I don't have a problem with the levels
It’s the illegal information I get all bent out of shape about. When I hear about writers publishing information they shouldn’t have because some source decided the law wasn’t important enough (e.g., grand jury testimonies, confidential drug tests, etc…) I wanna strangle the writer.
My favorite line in a news article – “speaking on the condition of anonymity due to the risk of losing their job.” So why say it? Because you’re getting paid by the writer; because it may not be true?
Seriously. I’d support an accuracy rating.
out of his backside
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by t ball on Jan 12, 2010 10:44 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
OT: Lane Kiffin named USC's next head coach..
also just in: Norm Chow returning to be offensive coordinator.
You know, Lane Kiffin is a douchebag.
Also apparently his dad if going to follow him to USC
as well as his top recruiting coach.
I agree. USC and Kiffin are made for each other.
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch"
-Gdawg
He is a douche,
but he’s got the hottest wife in the business. Happens to be a UF grad, I think a contemporary of Erin Andrews.
'Waiting for a girl and she gets me into fights
Waiting for a girl we get drunk on Friday night'
can you please
stop typing derek jeter is the best defensive shortstop in baseball
Go to bed
Josey Wales born on LSB July 18, 2006 Jumped the shark--That glorious day in 2008. RIP Josey Wales.
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
Coffee never helps me when I'm super-tired
All it does is make me jittery and loopy. I usually have to wait until my second wind kicks in before my brain functions return to normal.
If the Rangers were in the playoffs... the soundtrack could be one long continuous fart, and I would love it. - cmkelly
Good informative post.
I think my issue is that many sports journalists are of an inferior ilk then their main section counterparts.
While Rangers fans are lucky to have Evan Grant and some other talented writers, there are also the Tim McMahon’s of the world who are lazy at best and completely incompetent at worst. I mean, if these guys are willing to scoop bloggers’ stories, what’s to prevent them from scrambling at a deadline and saying they have a source when they really don’t? I think this problem is only made worse when you realize that sports writers are rarely held accountable at the same level as their colleagues who are covering a story in the main section.
Sports coverage is “lite” entertainment though and I rather have a good story with bad journalism than something that upholds the highest values of journalism butis incredibly boring.
so you wouldn't be cool with
Jon Heyman, Ace War Correspondent?
by kevinkinsler on Jan 12, 2010 10:13 PM CST up reply actions
Jon Heyman on MLBN mentions the owners are discussing the possibility of having no DH
that is the big discussion going into the owners meetings tomorrow. That doesn’t make any sense to me. Maybe I’m not a purist, or I’m just an AL guy, but watching a pitcher hit is one of the most painful things in baseball. Without the DH, there are alot of players that wouldn’t have a place to play. For me, it would make more sense to add the DH in the NL if they were going to do anything. Personally, I’d rather the DH stay the way it is. It’s what makes the NL and AL unique from each other.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Doing away with the DH
Might be the one thing baseball could do to make me watch it less.
Hopefully the players union puts the kabosh on this asinine idea before it gets much further.
If the Rangers were in the playoffs... the soundtrack could be one long continuous fart, and I would love it. - cmkelly
yeah
Heyman mentions that the owners don’t like the DH. Well, there’s an obvious reason. They have to pay a player more to play everyday instead of having that roster spot as a bench player.
like has been said, the MLBPA better put an end to this.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
The MLBPA would never allow this.
Extension of players’ careers.
'Waiting for a girl and she gets me into fights
Waiting for a girl we get drunk on Friday night'
I agree
Players can make a lot more money late in their career with a AL team. I’m suprised that they won’t put up a vote for it in the NL.
Josey Wales born on LSB July 18, 2006 Jumped the shark--That glorious day in 2008. RIP Josey Wales.
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
+1
Watching NL baseball sucks. I’ll go kill Selig if that happened.
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 12, 2010 10:16 PM CST up reply actions
Plus +
Watching 2 NL teams go at it can be a beating.
Absolutely boring baseball on that side, IMO.
by TooLegitToQuit on Jan 13, 2010 12:56 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
but...but..but
strategy!!!double switches! bunts!!! BUNTS DAMNIT!!!!
by studcrackers on Jan 13, 2010 1:30 AM CST up reply actions
Heyman also mentions
that they are going to talk about umpiring. hopefully MLB sets up some sort of training themselves, a better evaluation system, and better pay for minor league umpires to at least be able to retain some of the good ones.
instant replay doesn’t have any steam and will seem to be swept aside.
Heyman, also, mentioned Greenberg and, although, I only caught the end of this, he says that everything seems to be going well with their finances.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
If anything
they need to make the NL bring in the DH too
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I can't believe I'm in the minority here.
Eventually baseball will be like football. 9 players in the field, 9 different players in the lineup. I hear the whole uniqueness between the leagues argument, but I’m more concerned with what makes baseball unique from other sports.
Actually, I’m not that surprised, since this is an AL board, but surely I’m not the only one with a dissenting opinion.
meta-signature
I don't know if self policing works
During the offseason or trade deadline, do we even care if a rumor turns out to be accurate? I think we just care that it’s a rumor. Nobody goes and checks back to see if a reporter was accurate about rumors and I really doubt that a reporter goes back to see that his source was accurate. Very little incentive to do this.
It's about trust in the writer.
You have to build yourself up as a trustworthy journalist — both to your audience and to your sources — before you can get away with the deep background-type sourcing.
If I were to tell you that a Ranger official said that Texas is close to signing Baseball Player X, you would demand a name or shrug it off as hearsay. Beyond that, the Ranger official I got it from could be hesitant to give me more information in the future.
If Evan Grant were to tell you that a Ranger official said that Texas is close to signing Baseball Player X, you’d trust him. He’s a trusted source on the topic, both by his audience and his sources. We know that he is a good reporter and, perhaps most importantly, his sources know that he’s a good reporter.
Journalism is an industry based almost solely on skins on the wall.
What do tigers dream of when they take a little tiger snooze? Do they dream of mauling zebras, or Halle Berry in her Catwoman suit?
think about the writers we trust the most now
it is almost all based on writing style and opinions. we trust them because they seem like levelheaded, trustworthy guys, not because they have a record of being trusted.
OT. From Sickels Astros list
11) Matt Nevarez, RHP, Grade C+: Dominant Sally League performance, throws hard, could move quickly as relief option if he maintains the control he showed this year. Good trade pickup. Underrated.
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
Where would he have ranked in our system?
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
40's
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 13, 2010 9:06 AM CST up reply actions
or late 30's
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 13, 2010 9:17 AM CST up reply actions
true
but the supplemental pick we’ll get for Pudge should be more valuable than Matt Nevarez, who only got a C+ because of the dearth of talent around him
Go Rice Owls!
I'll just say that
a little skewing up of prospects in weak systems and down in strong systems is only natural and wouldn’t surprise me from anybody. I really haven’t looked at it too much regarding Sickels.
Go Rice Owls!
Yeah, in a bad system you can't just go from a B or two all the way to some D+s, there's probably a little generosity at the middle levels of grading the prospects
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
I don't think Newberg or BA would have him that high
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 13, 2010 9:28 AM CST up reply actions
Which is way too high but so is
having Vin DiFazio at #20.
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 13, 2010 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
wasn't that a character in Grease?
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
LaVerne and Shirley
'Waiting for a girl and she gets me into fights
Waiting for a girl we get drunk on Friday night'
Nevarez a C+
meanwhile, Vallejo is down there in the also rans.
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The Rangers should have
rights to clone Pujols
"We play to win the game" - Herm Edwards
by nicholas.rodriguez on Jan 12, 2010 11:27 PM CST reply actions
As an ex-journalist...
Thanks for the post. And think about how your argument would work in a political or corporate context. Sometimes these methods are crucial for getting important information out in public. Source can definitely be abused, but it’s the only way journalism as we know it can work.
Newsflash!
A source at SBN has confirmed that the Blue Jays are have developed illegal human cloning technology!
"What ... 92 miles per hour?" Feldman scoffed. "That's not gas. Feliz throws gas."
by NorCalRangersFan on Jan 13, 2010 10:06 PM CST reply actions

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