Clarifying the Brandon McCarthy and Chris Ray option situations
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 20, 2010 5:52 PM CST
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PrintOne of the things that has caused some confusion is the option situation regarding Chris Ray and Brandon McCarthy. Jamey Newberg wrote, when we first acquired Ray, that he had two options remaining, and Evan Grant wrote yesterday that McCarthy has an option left.
I, meanwhile, have written that neither Ray nor McCarthy can be sent to the minors without clearing waivers.
Thanks to JackDaddy for finding this old Keith Law piece on transactional issues, which includes an explanation of this particular conundrum:
There is a rule rarely invoked in baseball that creates a situation where a player who has options remaining still has to clear waivers to be sent on an optional assignment. If the assignment is to begin at least three full calendar years from the date of the player's first appearance on a 25-man roster, then the player can not be sent on an optional assignment without first clearing major league waivers. These waivers are revocable, and players usually clear those waivers without incident.
So, Ray and McCarthy both have options remaining, and if they clear waivers, they stay on the 40 man roster and it isn't considered an outright assignment.
However, they each would still have to clear waivers to be optioned, and if they were claimed and the Rangers pulled them back from waivers, they couldn't be put on revocable waivers again for a period of time.
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Okay, so
the reality is most likely that McCarthy can’t go down. Someone would surely claim him. Ray, maybe you could get him to OKC at some point (though that point may be after he’s already disappointed, and you don’t care that much what happens to him).
McCarthy
The note above indicates that players are rarely claimed in that circumstance.
That said, I thought there was also a rule that requires a player with a certain amount of service time to consent to being sent down, or else could receive his unconditional release (and get paid if he had a guaranteed contract).
by Darrell McKown on Jan 20, 2010 6:03 PM CST up reply actions
My guess, though,
is that players are rarely claimed in that circumstance because you’re basically sticking it to that club by claiming a guy like McCarthy this (March/April) time of year. But I would suspect that this could be a big enough factor that one of their rivals could decide to stick it to them and force them to make a tough decision.
by Brett Perryman on Jan 20, 2010 6:07 PM CST up reply actions
they are revocable waivers
In BMac’s case, if he is not going to make the roster I don’t think the team would have too much of a problem if they pulled him back and then tried to trade him to the claiming team. But I do think his situation means the #5 spot is his unless injured.
Vladimir Guererro - 2010 AL MVP
I said that
My point is that, if Texas wants to option him out and, say, Oakland blocks that by placing a claim and forcing Texas to pull him back, Texas then has to make presumably a harder decision on what to do. Either send down someone like Hunter, who you presumably liked better at that point, or cut bait with someone, shortening your depth.
by Brett Perryman on Jan 20, 2010 6:16 PM CST up reply actions
a few things.....
1. my guess is that teams are usually so worried about there own 25 and 40 man at the begining of a season that they dont worry about sticking it to their rival over their roster bubble. It would be a prickish Bill Bellicheat move.
2.The team that puts the claim in better be in a position to take that player on their 25 and release someone from there 40 man…..no easy task for a possible contender considering we are talking about the 26th man on a roster,,,,
by death of the cool on Jan 20, 2010 6:35 PM CST up reply actions
I don’t think it would be hard for quite a few teams to take on McCarthy from a roster perspective, though his salary isn’t quite a drop in the bucket.
At any rate, the short and long of it to me, based on what we know, is that he is pretty unlikely to get sent down if he’s healthy.
by Brett Perryman on Jan 20, 2010 6:41 PM CST up reply actions
I agree
the only way Bmac isn’t with us opening day is if he is on the DL or traded.
by Warren P Funk on Jan 20, 2010 6:48 PM CST up reply actions
I dunno.
The fact that no one’s even hard of this rule, and the way in which Law wrote about it..I really don’t see this affecting things.
Whah?
What do you mean, no one’s even heard of this rule?
Every team in the league has 2-5 guys whose job it is is to know rules like this in 6 languages.
TR and John Heyman and Buster Olney and many of their colleagues might not be aware of it, but I’d be utterly shocked if every baseball FO doesn’t.
Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...
Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?
by Brian Thomas on Jan 21, 2010 8:12 PM CST up reply actions
They’re the type where you can block a post-waivers deadline deal in August by placing a claim on a player. There are something like four zones over the course of the year and I believe that you can only send a player through revocable waivers once each period.
by Brett Perryman on Jan 20, 2010 6:04 PM CST up reply actions
Time to weigh in...
This is my first post so I’ll just jump right in! It seems to me that we might start Holland and/or Feliz in AAA and wait until their service time flips to the next year. Don’t remember the detail to it all but we seem to have enough pieces to try it. Not that I’m a fan of not having them opening day, but we could delay some free agency later on.
The service time issue
Holland would basically have to spend all of 2010 in the minors to bump his free agency eligibility back a year.
For Feliz, he’d have to stay down there for a couple of months.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 20, 2010 7:04 PM CST up reply actions
And besides
If Feliz and/or Holland is pitching lights out, I’m not really worried about that extra year of control. I want them now. Especially with Holland, since it will be almost the whole year, it would be good to bring him up when ready or injury dictates it.
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch"
-Gdawg
plus
if they turn out to be everything we hoped, I’d think the Rangers would probably end up buying out arbitration years and a couple of FA years
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
They're not booing, sir,
they are saying boo-urns.
"If this video was an ice cream flavor, it'd be pralines and dick." Clark
re: Matthew Wilder-Break My Stride, 4/17/09
It's so he's not a super 2
not to bump his free agency eligibility back a year
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 20, 2010 8:11 PM CST up reply actions
I think if they cared about that...
…they wouldn’t have called him up after 2 weeks last year.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 20, 2010 8:42 PM CST up reply actions
Bmac and Harrison seem
long forgotten in my book for some reason.
"BIg whoop, wanna fight about it?"
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Hurley as well for me.....
injuries will do that
by death of the cool on Jan 20, 2010 6:36 PM CST up reply actions
No offense to the guy,
but Matt Harrison is a forgettable dude with some forgettable numbers so far in his career
What about his two
CGSO last year?
"THAT WAS MY SPECIAL MONDAY MORNING TAPE, SPECIAL, FOR YOU!
It's fucking Monday afternoon, you should get out of bed earlier."
- Jack Black & John Cusack, High Fidelity
by FormerLSBUser on Jan 20, 2010 7:24 PM CST up reply actions
I was ready to jump his bones after those...
..admittedly though, I didn’t pay attention to if he was missing bats or not.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 20, 2010 7:35 PM CST up reply actions
Those were incredibly nice
The career k/9 of 4.7, bb/9 of 3.3 along with his whip, era, injury, etc aren’t too promising
especially with all the competition now
I think he’s a great option to make some spot-starts out of AAA, but I doubt he is getting serious consideration to be a big league contributor this season.
Don't forget Bucky
Supposedly Harry has a few more ticks on the FB. If memory serves, he had up to 96 mph. He is still on the upside, and does have several nice wins under his belt. No question that he doesn’t have the TOPR tools of Holland or Feliz, but best case scenario, I could see him as a #2 or #3. Why not park him in the bully (give Snyder back as he has no place to go really)?
Roto – Harden, pHeldman, Lewis, Hunter, McCarthy
Bully – FF, CJ, O’Day, Happy, Oliver, Harry, Nippert, Ray
Your 2009 Snow Monkey Ambassador
I haven't given up on him by any means
I just think he’s pretty far down the totem pole, and I doubt he’s in the “competing for a rotation spot” group at ST
I heard the same about his velo, but I wonder how his command has faired.
If memory serves me right, seems like he got roughed up a tad during the latter part of the AFL.
Either way, if he can keep that velo and get some command back it is a win.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 20, 2010 8:04 PM CST up reply actions
re: Harry
but best case scenario, I could see him as a #2 or #3.
Heh. You and Tyd, bubela, you and Tyd only.
And please don’t ever use that made up, shitheel of a word “bully.” It’s dumb slang, promoted by a sad-sack troglodyte who we can only hope will soon die slowly in a fire.
Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...
Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?
by Brian Thomas on Jan 21, 2010 8:24 PM CST up reply actions
It's all pretty fucking amazing
how people are meh’ing a pitcher that, a few years ago, would have been a #2 in this rotation. Unbelievable the turnaround we have seen, or the perceived turnaround.
"If this video was an ice cream flavor, it'd be pralines and dick." Clark
re: Matthew Wilder-Break My Stride, 4/17/09
And that's a good thing
In regards to this team’s pitching depth.
Morality you can fake. Fun you either have or you don't.
Indeed
"BIg whoop, wanna fight about it?"
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
by lost in space on Jan 20, 2010 7:40 PM CST up reply actions
Did AJM just say "we" in reference to the Rangers?
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
I, too, sometimes refer to teams that I obsess over as “we”. But I don’t believe I have ever seen Mr. Morris type that before.
by Hard8 on Jan 20, 2010 7:32 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Ha, nice catch
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.
OT - Angels sign Pineiro per Jon Heyman
2 years, 16 million.
good
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jan 20, 2010 7:40 PM CST up reply actions
Awesome!!!
Tee ’em up, boys.
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.
On HH
I’m not particularly in favor of this [bringing Pineiro aboard], but if he comes at a price tag at or below 5 million, could be a worthwhile gamble.
and... nothing cheers me up while writing a law review comment like a pissed off angels fan
OH TERRIBLE!!!!!
WE JUST SIGNED HIM FOR 2 YEARS!!! 16 MILLION. EPIC FAIL.
by Halowood on Jan 20, 2010 7:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
And, confirmed!
:)
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.
He was looking for 2/15
And I’ll bet he got it, or else he would have kept the Mets on the line.
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.
Actually...
I think he was looking for a 3/30 like Wolf got. After realizing he wasn’t going to get that he had to settle for the best 2 year deal he could get. I’m glad it was the Halos who gave it to him too. I’ve never really been impressed by his stuff.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Well then that's quite the gamble...
they have to be livid over there.
"BIg whoop, wanna fight about it?"
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
by lost in space on Jan 20, 2010 7:49 PM CST up reply actions
The majority of them
seem quite pleased. Of course, the majority of them are cretins.
I’m a white boy who doesn’t think a black man is good enough to manage my baseball team. - LSJ
"I really think that" - LSJ, on being asked by AirJordan
that is all types of funny.
Oh, the happiness that it isn’t the Rangers making these types of signings. Of course, in the old days we’d have given Pineiro 15 million and wasted a draft pick as well.
Go Rice Owls!
Not so fast..
I traded emails with Evan Grant tonight and he contacted the Rangers. They clarified that it is 5 yrs of service before a player can refuse Options. So now I’m even more confused, because I didn’t think “refusing” options was even part of the process.
I suspect Evan will clarify in a blog post soon.
Jack Daddy
Yeah
If you have 5 years of service time, you can refuse an optional assignment and elect free agency instead.
But that’s a different thing than the clearing waivers issue.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 20, 2010 7:43 PM CST up reply actions
agree
thus my confusion – and the fact that I’m not real bright :)
by the way, for what its worth – I have a close friend that through mutual acquaintances has become somewhat friendly with Ian over the past 2 months. Ian is over the top excited about Harden. He also is 100% behind and excited about Vlad in the fold. Now, Ian is just a ball player and not a front office type,so it doesn’t mean they were the right moves. But it does mean the clubhouse is behind them, which is very important.
Jack Daddy
That is pretty cool
I’m a huge Ian Kinsler fan, for the record. I love that he gets pumped. I felt like Hank Blalock couldn’t have cared less about what happened with the team.
ok - did more research
It looks like everything in Law’s post is right, except the 3 yr part. It’s 5. No matter how many options a player has remaining, can refuse a minor league assignment after FIVE years.
So, if BMac has 1 option left (which it seems) then they can send him down b/c I think he only has 4 yrs service.
Clear as mud?
Jack Daddy
i think
the point is, he doesn’t have to be put on waivers since he has 1 option left. I’ve never liked Keith Law and his confusing post adds to my dislike.
Why doesn’t baseball publish Rule 9?!!!
Jack Daddy
I have a love/hate relationship with Keith Law
I don’t know why, it just seems like he’s spot on with some things and on others he lives on a different planet.
meta-signature
Keith Law is a beast
Reconsider.
Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...
Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?
by Brian Thomas on Jan 21, 2010 8:26 PM CST up reply actions
You know
Evan’s answer from the Rangers doesn’t address whether they have to be placed on waivers or not after 3 yr of service in order to option. Like Adam said, the 5 yr. refusal is an entirely different beast.
So, after looking at the rules I can find online and seeing Evan’s thoughts and “clarification” from the team, I STill DON’T FEEL like I know the answer as to whether he would have to be put on waivers.
Jack Daddy
I'm sticking
with the notion that he has to clear waivers to be optioned down. And I agree with (I think it was) Brett that said he won’t clear waivers. No way. Not with that salary.
I think the Rangers offical Evan contacted was focusing on the wrong aspect of options (the veteran’s right to refuse after 5 years).
Ok. I’m done. going to gym. People smarter than me will nail this down and I’ll read about it at work in the morning!!
Jack Daddy
FURTHER CLARIFICATION
Guys and gals: I’m sorry that I didn’t get the full answer before about McCarthy. Here is the full situation:
Refusing an option: He could not refuse, as a player with less than five years of experience has no ability to decline an option.
Being placed on waivers: Yes, he would have to be placed on waivers, as per the Keith Law statement. They are revocable waivers, so if he was claimed the Rangers could pull him back and keep him in the majors. But, if placed on waivers, somebody would have to pick up his contract ($1.3 mm) and put him on the major league roster. And then, in order to later option him, he’d have to go through waivers again.
As Law noted, the rule rarely results in a transaction because these players all have arbitration-size contracts and that makes claiming a bit more of an issue.
Thanks Evan
My only thought is, when a guy off a 2yr Japan stint (with one of the worst eras in MLB history) gets $2.5 per and with some of the other contracts out there this year, that $1.3MM for BMac seems like good value. But if you say it, I definitely believe it. Like I mentioned last night, my preference would be that Holland and Hunter get the last spots, as those guys are likely to be here when we’re winning World Series. I can’t see that with McCarthy.
Jack Daddy
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