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Around SBN: The Gift Of The 2003 Tigers

Angels reportedly sign Joel Pineiro

The Angels have supposedly signed free agent pitcher Joel Pineiro to a 2 year, $16 million deal.  Clearly a panic move in response to the Colby Lewis signing.

Seriously, though...Pineiro is an odd case.  He was cut loose by the M's after his ERA went up 5 years in a row, peaking at 6.36 in 165 2/3 IP in 2006.*  Beleaguered former Royal g.m. turned Boston special assistant Allard Baird recommended that the BoSox sign him and make him a reliever, and he wasn't very good with them, either, before being dealt to St. Louis midway through the 2007 season.

* To continue the Lewis comparison, Pineiro's ERA+ that season was 70.  Colby Lewis's ERA+ in his famous 7+ ERA season where he had a 10-9 record in 127 IP?  69, dudes.

In 2007 and 2008 Pineiro scuffled about, posting a 4.73 FIP and a 4.71 FIP to go with a 4.33 and 5.15 ERA.  His K rate was sub-par, his walk rate was okay, and he got some ground balls...but really, he was the definition of a journeyman pitcher.

But still, Dave Duncan's reputation as a miracleworker isn't completely without merit, even though folks say his philosophy can be boiled down to, throw a two seamer for strikes, get ground balls and let your infield do the work.  And in 2009, Pineiro took that to the extreme.

Pineiro's 4.42 K/9 rate was the third lowest in the majors, ahead of only Nick Blackburn and John Lannan (and remember, he's pitching in the N.L., so he gets to face a pitcher rather than a DH).

Pineiro's 1.14 BB/9 rate was the best in the majors -- only Roy Halladay and Dan Haren were also below 1.5 in 2009.

And Pineiro's 2.54 GB/FB ratio was by far the lowest in the majors -- only three other pitchers were 2.0 or higher, and his closest competitor was Derek Lowe at 2.18. 

The groundball rate was the huge outlier...Pineiro's career GB/FB ratio is 1.54, and while he'd never cracked the 49% mark on groundballs prior to 2009, Pineiro got grounders on 60.5% of batted balls in 2009.

Pineiro's walk rate was also an extreme outlier -- his career rate is about 2.5 per 9, but his previous career best was in 2008, when he was at 2.12, and he'd clearly become more control-oriented since joining the National League.

In any case, this gave Pineiro a FIP of 3.27, an xFIP of 3.68, and a tRA+ of 3.46.  Yeah, he didn't strike anybody out, but if you also don't walk anyone and get grounders 60% of the time, you'll still have success.

So Pineiro's 2009 season was bizarre...not only was it completely out of step with his entire career to date, it is also exceptional relative to all other pitchers in 2009.  I think you'd be hard pressed to find a pitcher in the last decade who was the best in the league in walks and grounders and one of the worst in the league in Ks.

The fact that it is such an outlier makes it hard to figure out what Pineiro is likely to do in 2010.  There have been 18 player seasons from 2004-2008 where a pitcher has had at least a 60% ground ball percentage, and the list is dominated by Lowe, Brandon Webb, and Jake Westbrook.  And none of those guys were walking just 1 batter per game.

If Pineiro can duplicate his 2009 season, he's a steal at $9 million per year.  But that seems unlikely...2009 was the first time he posted a FIP below 4.41 since the 2003 season, back in Seattle.  His 2008 season is more along the lines for what one would realistically expect from Pineiro, and if he does that, you have to figure the Angels are going to be disappointed.

CHONE has Pineiro as a 4.17 FIP guy in 2010, but I believe that's before adjusting for him coming to the harder league.  Pineiro seems to me to be a guy you give a one year deal at $4-5 million, with incentives...2 years at $16 seems excessive.


 

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Just wait until they sign Byrnes

And rain hellfire upon the Al West!

"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.

by Rodney on Jan 20, 2010 8:45 PM CST reply actions  

oh god

amend my post to include Byrnes… this would be most excellent

by BuckyB on Jan 20, 2010 8:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Heh :)

"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.

by Rodney on Jan 20, 2010 8:57 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think I could be happier with the Angel's off-season

maybe if they’d signed Blalock and/or traded for Chan Ho Park

by BuckyB on Jan 20, 2010 8:45 PM CST reply actions  

Hope the sign Blalock

"There are two girls that can take a pounding!" Tom Grieve

by Spadedsnake on Jan 20, 2010 9:07 PM CST up reply actions  

he kills in that stadium, doesn't he?

Don’t have any numbers to back that up….

(Wife) "So what do you want to watch on the T.V.? UFC or porn?"
(Husband) "Hmm... well, porn, I guess."

by mtex on Jan 20, 2010 10:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Go to

baseballreference.com → search hank blalock → click “splits – career”

it’ll tell you his splits v. any team and in any stadium

by BuckyB on Jan 20, 2010 11:08 PM CST up reply actions  

No..

Blalock wasn’t that great for us, but it would hurt me to see him in an Angel uniform.

by cmkelly29 on Jan 21, 2010 7:44 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed.

Last year leaves a bad taste in your mouth, but in some ways, Hank will always be a Ranger. Kind of a crappy one the last few years, but he (and his TOS) will always be a hallmark of the 2000 Rangers.

Morality you can fake. Fun you either have or you don't.

by LSJ on Jan 21, 2010 8:59 AM CST up reply actions  

I won't deny...

Hank was my favorite Ranger while he was here, struggles and all.

by cmkelly29 on Jan 21, 2010 9:11 AM CST up reply actions  

Yep

He was my original favorite Ranger. Of course, he’s also one of the things that made me realize I really shouldn’t pick favorite players, but he does remind me of that innocent time in my baseball fandom, when I could root for guys just because they looked gritty and I liked their name without snickering in disdain.

Morality you can fake. Fun you either have or you don't.

by LSJ on Jan 21, 2010 9:19 AM CST up reply actions  

Also...

even during his black-hole of a 2009 season, you would see flashes of the old Hank, in his ability to work a walk out of the blue, or the occasional working an 0-2 count into his favor and ripping a line drive up the middle. He’d do something like that and I’d be wondering, “where the fuck has that been?!” So frustrating.

There’s always the chance that what is happening to Hank right now is a wake-up call for him. I think the real Hank Blalock is still in there somewhere, it would be so sad for him to go to the Angels and rediscover himself.

by bhudson on Jan 21, 2010 9:12 AM CST up reply actions  

Reading that

makes me more pessimistic that Blake Beavan is going to make it.

Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

by Keynes on Jan 20, 2010 8:48 PM CST via mobile reply actions  

you've got to be able to miss bats

Beavan hasn’t shown the ability to do that in the minors. he doesn’t have much chance at the big league level at this point. though, he is still pretty young.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Jan 20, 2010 10:58 PM CST up reply actions  

agreed

the bats don’t lie.

by SteveP on Jan 21, 2010 1:03 AM CST up reply actions  

Hmm

reading that reminded me of my MLB 08 The Show RTTS career, where the Rangers picked up Carlos Silva somehow by the time I had gotten up to the majors in mid-2010. He won a CY that year, after striking out 95 and walking about 60 in 210 innings, and posted an ERA at around 2.8. Whole thing was out of whack.

It doesn’t look like a great signing though (just doesn’t look like he should repeat such a year and he’s in the AL now), but then again, I believed in Dave Duncan’s ability to make pitchers look better than they are, moreso than some other people.

Remember to retire Fin's number, Mark.

by jonthefon on Jan 20, 2010 9:11 PM CST reply actions  

See ya.....

"There are two girls that can take a pounding!" Tom Grieve

by Spadedsnake on Jan 20, 2010 9:12 PM CST reply actions  

good ridance

"If he raced his pregnant wife he'd finish third." Tommy Lasorda on catcher Mike Scioscia

by GayForFeliz on Jan 20, 2010 9:18 PM CST up reply actions  

thanks for not giving hank genitalia in that photo.....

but we need to hold an intervention for you, all of LSB is worried about you…. We’re going to go around the room and say how we feel about your addiction…..I’ll go first…… You need to stop posting fucking pics…….

by slash on Jan 21, 2010 12:45 AM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Yep no more pics

Josey Wales born on LSB July 18, 2006 Jumped the shark--That glorious day in 2008. RIP Josey Wales.
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009

by boomer1 on Jan 21, 2010 6:33 AM CST up reply actions  

Fewer pics from everyone here

would suit me fine.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Jan 21, 2010 9:47 AM CST up reply actions  

does this pertain to anything that is being discussed

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Jan 21, 2010 7:09 AM CST up reply actions  

I was gonna say the same thing.

What the hell do Byrd and Blalock have to do with Pineiro?

by JBP on Jan 21, 2010 7:36 AM CST up reply actions  

Thank god they're not 2010 Rangers?

Morality you can fake. Fun you either have or you don't.

by LSJ on Jan 21, 2010 9:00 AM CST up reply actions  

Hmm, that's a stretch, but I'll buy it.

Although regardless, I’m totally on board for an intervention of the pic-happy Mr. Diseased Balls.

by JBP on Jan 21, 2010 10:03 AM CST up reply actions  

About time to see

the Angels in panic mode!

"There are two girls that can take a pounding!" Tom Grieve

by Spadedsnake on Jan 20, 2010 9:13 PM CST reply actions  

Pineiro will revert

to replacement level. Proving that Dave Duncan is a genius.

In vino, veritas

by Winojohn on Jan 20, 2010 9:14 PM CST reply actions  

So

Lewis at 2/5 or Piniero at 2/16?….Id definitely take Lewis

"JD gets complete blame or credit for what happens in 2010 and I think Nolan wants it that way. JD is paid to be a real GM and needs to start performing like one." - Josey Wales

by Michael Cave on Jan 20, 2010 9:23 PM CST reply actions  

Hard to

argue with that

"BIg whoop, wanna fight about it?"

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

by lost in space on Jan 20, 2010 10:20 PM CST up reply actions  

That's a no-brainer

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Jan 21, 2010 12:12 AM CST up reply actions  

If JD signed Pineiro for 2/16

or 2/12 or even 2/8 I’d be mortified. It’d almost certainly rank in his top 3 worst moves ever.

This is an incredibly weird signing. This is the type of deal you see from the Royals or the Pirates, the “gee, they can actually spend money, but why on HIM?” move. I don’t get it at all. Why didn’t they just make a trade for Kevin Correia or some other borderline non-tender candidate?

Go Rice Owls!

by JBImaknee on Jan 21, 2010 12:59 AM CST up reply actions  

I know

ppl can say well Duncan fixed him, look at him now. I really dont like that argument because pitchers need constant coaching and instruction during the season. They need to make mechanical adjustments, find the feel for a certain pitch again, etc. Now while im sure that Mike Butcher is a fine pitching coach he is no Dave Duncan. Also, the ridiculously low K/9 would really scare me if i were a team trying to sign him.

Two things really jump out at me with this deal. Obviously, the total value of the contract and the 2nd year that is guaranteed. Was there really this much competition for a guy like Piniero? I guess the mets were offering 2/15? It just seems the Angels really made a panic move here.

"JD gets complete blame or credit for what happens in 2010 and I think Nolan wants it that way. JD is paid to be a real GM and needs to start performing like one." - Josey Wales

by Michael Cave on Jan 21, 2010 8:03 AM CST up reply actions  

HalosHeaven with some negative reactions
I just don’t like betting on 30+ year olds having epiphanies. See GMJ… ~Till the Halo burns out…

by Zu Long on Jan 20, 2010 8:03 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
OH TERRIBLE!!!!! WE JUST SIGNED HIM FOR 2 YEARS!!! 16 MILLION. EPIC FAIL.

by Halowood on Jan 20, 2010 7:46 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
If by “impact guy” you mean bat on ball, sure. And that’s not a solid staff to me. It’s four question marks and Weaver. An injury to him, and it’s a black comedy (and I don’t mean Norbit).

Saunders, Santana, Kazmir: all recent injury issues, WHIPs north of 1.4, declining K rates.

Feels like folks are just grabbing the best possible outcomes for these three and assuming that those are also the likeliest outcomes. Happyland real estate.

by Turks Teeth on Jan 20, 2010 9:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I dont think Pineiro’s better than Palmer. Pin’s only thrown above 200 innings twice in his career, is probably asking for 7-8 million, has a terrible ERA in the AL and was only effective because the NL is weaksauce and he has Dave Duncan over in st. Louis working miracles.

I think Pineiro’s just going to be an expensive Palmer. Both will probably reach 150 inning tops, both will have an ERA north of 5.

by Halowood on Jan 20, 2010 7:45 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Many of the negative comments can also be applied to Lewis, but 2yr/16 Mil for a 5th starter seems a bit pricey, don’t y’all think?

by chrisR on Jan 21, 2010 1:30 AM CST reply actions  

Yep.

Lewis and Pinero are probably fairly comparable, but Lewis is tons cheaper and at least missed bats in Japan, something Pinero has never done.

Morality you can fake. Fun you either have or you don't.

by LSJ on Jan 21, 2010 2:33 AM CST up reply actions  

That's right

Pineiro has never struck anybody out in Japan.
heh. jk
I get the point. They are both “intriguing” signings.
Also, the comment about the Angels rotation really makes you wonder. Kazmir, Santana, and Saunders are big question marks. If the Angels plan to take division again, they will have to rely a lot on their offense.

by chrisR on Jan 21, 2010 2:00 PM CST up reply actions  

As much as the Angels will rely on a rotation of question marks

The Rangers are going to be relying on wildcards with questionable health. Harden, Vlad and Hamilton all have to stay resonably healthy and productive for us to take the division, which is probably a long shot as well.

We’ll have to rely on our pitching depth and our offense improving it’s OBP problems from last year. The Angels will have to lean on their offense/defense, and the M’s will rely on their mediocre offense and the back of their rotation to produce enough to support Felix, Lee and their superb defense.

Every team in this division has potentially major holes, and the team that avoids them the best will win. Since the Angels have shown year in and year out an ability to do just that, I don’t think you can look at their poor offseason and say we should beat them.

Morality you can fake. Fun you either have or you don't.

by LSJ on Jan 21, 2010 7:28 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think we "should" beat them.

I agree with you. But, I think (I can’t believe I’m typing this) that right now, we have the most pitching depth in the division.

by chrisR on Jan 21, 2010 11:52 PM CST up reply actions  

This offseason has been fairly beautiful...

aside from the, you know, massive likewise improvement in that far Northwest club.

I thought the org would be really hamstrung, but they’ve made some nifty moves, and I think LAAAA has backslid a little.

by bhudson on Jan 21, 2010 8:25 AM CST reply actions  

One complaint

Cliff Lee to the Mariners, but hopefully it will backfire

by BuckyB on Jan 21, 2010 9:05 AM CST up reply actions  

Seattle has done very well

replaced Silva with Milton. Locked up Guti…

GMZ has been a miracle worker in his ability to purge pretty much all of Bavasi’s bad players and contracts without hamstringing the org with dead money, while getting valuable pieces in return. Thank god for Dayton Moore and Jim Hendry, I guess. JD needs to put these GMs on speed dial.

Seattle is starting to look like our long term competition within the division.

by bhudson on Jan 21, 2010 9:21 AM CST up reply actions  

I disagree

He may never repeat 2009, but he doesn’t have to to outperform that contract.

Fangraphs article

Also look at historical value on his player page. Even if you ratchet down 2009 some, it’s a very nice upward trend.

by bhudson on Jan 21, 2010 9:45 AM CST up reply actions  

Texas Rangers Sale Down to Dotting the "I"s and Crossing "T"s

Go BoyEE!!!

"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.

by Rodney on Jan 21, 2010 10:03 AM CST reply actions  

I figured I was late to the party

Been busy this a.m.

"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.

by Rodney on Jan 21, 2010 10:56 AM CST up reply actions  

Fangraphs seems to like the Pineiro signing
Pineiro should be a safe bet to provide at least 2.5 wins and has a good shot at maybe four wins in 2010, and then maybe a little bit less in 2011. So the price is solid even in today’s down market.

Not that I agree…

"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.

by Rodney on Jan 21, 2010 1:31 PM CST reply actions  

It's hardly an albatross-type contract

I love that the Rangers got Lewis and Harden for about that much money, but that doesn’t mean the Pineiro signing is really bad.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Jan 21, 2010 1:33 PM CST up reply actions  

I kinda doubt his ability to repeat '09's performance

But that’s the neat thing…we shall see.

"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.

by Rodney on Jan 21, 2010 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, I'm more optimistic

in Lewis’ recent history, since his success was a bit longer. But I wouldn’t be surprised if Pineiro didn’t regress a little bit but still be a decent 3rd starter.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Jan 21, 2010 1:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Halos Slipping Down

In essence, the Angels have swapped gimpy designated hitters, downgraded from Lackey to Piniero, lost Figgins and gained Rodney. Meanwhile, Roy Halladay went to Philadelphia, Cliff Lee went to Seattle, and Aroldis Chapman went to Cincinnati. The Angels wanted an ace pitcher and they ended up with Joel Piniero. It’s the kind of dream/reality contrast one would expect to find with the New York Mets, not the L.A. Angels.

http://www.baseballdailydigest.com/2010/01/21/halos-slipping-down/

by GregoryM on Jan 21, 2010 1:54 PM CST reply actions  

It doesn't mention a lot of things

Certainly, it doesn’t mention much intelligent analysis.

As always, the strength of the internet—the democratization of voices—can serve as its own undoing. In this case, there is an article written by someone with as much insight and intelligent analysis of the Angels as I could provide about Australian Rugby—which is to say, none at all.

Suffice it to say, the guy wrote about Joel Pineiro and misspelled his name conisistently. The author hit the rocks within the first sentence quoted above—the Angels didn’t “downgrade from Lackey to Pineiro”, they upgraded from the stew of #5 pitchers they trotted out following the death of Adenhart (Palmer, O’Sullivan, Bell, Ortega and others). Pineiro isn’t being asked to be a #1 or #2 pitcher in the rotation, and thus can’t be considered as a replacement for Lackey by any reasonable analyst.

Follow the link above if you must, but understand it will come at the cost of your brain cells dying unncessarily.

"He's not a Rhodes Scholar to begin with''~Theo Epstein, talking about Papelbon

by George Kaplan on Jan 25, 2010 11:36 AM CST up reply actions  

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