My HOF prediction for today
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 6, 2010 10:30 AM CST
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PrintMy prediction is that Bert Blyleven, Andre Dawson, and Robbie Alomar get announced as Hall of Famers today.
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I'll predict Alomar and the Hawk.
I don’t think Bly gets it this year. Hope so, but don’t think so.
Go Rice Owls!
How many more years
does Blyleven have left on the ballot?
"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto
by Michael Cave on Jan 6, 2010 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
Well i hope he gets in as well
He deserves to be in the HOF.
"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto
by Michael Cave on Jan 6, 2010 10:54 AM CST up reply actions
that would be a shame
Blyleven misses it, and Morris got in, that would be a crying shame.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
It really would be...
I understand the argument against Blyleven, but it would suck if Morris got in and Be Home didn’t .
Also, where does Burt “Be Home” Blyleven rank on the worst Bermanism’s of all time? When I heard that one it was the snowflake that started my personal avalanche of hatred for that beating of a sports anchor…
"Support the Dutch Oven"
by RangerFloppy on Jan 6, 2010 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
I say just Blyleven and Alomar.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
So does anyone think that Fred McGriff gets in eventually?
I definitely believe that he deserves to be in at some pt. Not a first ballot guy of course.
"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto
first ballot guy
that crap is so annoying. Either he’s a HOF or he’s not. Why the hell does it matter if he gets in the first try or not?
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jan 6, 2010 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
I think
that some ppl enter the ballot as no doubters (Seaver, Brett, Ryan, Young, et al) and immediately are voted in. There really is no debate. I would deem those guys “first ballot guys”. I think some guys it takes a little debate. Some guys become believers after further analysis (this is assuming that these writers are smart enough to analyze anything – big assumption i know).
"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto
by Michael Cave on Jan 6, 2010 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
I think
that if you don’t do your analysis the first time and decide on the first ballot you’re just a lazy voter.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jan 6, 2010 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
Remember we are talking about
baseball writers here.
"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto
by Michael Cave on Jan 6, 2010 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
Well you seemed to be saying you agree with it
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jan 6, 2010 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
Not necessarily
Sorry for the confusion. I could see how you get that from what i wrote
"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto
by Michael Cave on Jan 6, 2010 11:05 AM CST up reply actions
I disagree.
Things can change your mind, and there are gray area player that you just can’t be sure on. Since induction is permanent, if I’m not sure on someone, I’m going to wait until either I am, or the last time I can vote for him (at which point I’ll make up my mind).
That's really more what I was getting at
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jan 6, 2010 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think Fred McGriff is a
HOF player (he was very good) but he deserves to get in before Bert Blyleven.
Blyleven, a good to very good pitcher who piled up some nice stats, has become the bastard child of many in the sabermetric community who are seeking relevance.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
I definitely think McGriff should be in
OPS+ of 138. Of his top 10 most similar players on b-r, 4 are currently in the HOF and the others will be there (Thomas, Thome, Bagwell, Sheffield and I also believe Delgado) except Galarraga
"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto
by Michael Cave on Jan 6, 2010 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
7 top five finishes in ERA
That’s what I don’t get.
If he was just a “compiler” who was never great, how did he rack up so many top 5 finishes?
Has any other pitcher finished in the top 5 in ERA that many times without making the Hall?
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 6, 2010 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
He'll get in by the Veterans Committee eventually
No way the Veterans let a guy like Blyleven get by. Shame they will be the ones to do it though.
Blyleven wouldn't get in from the Vet Committee
because most of them either saw or played against Blyleven.
That’s why Blyleven rarely contended for Cy Youngs, made a few AS teams and why he bounced around the league (usually for the crap in somebody else’s front yard) even after he had proved that he was a good pitcher.
So everybody else (the GMs that had him, the managers that saw him, the players and pitchers that went against him, the writers who covered him) that saw him pitch is wrong about Blyleven and the stat head community is right?
I don’t think so.
Blyleven may get in but he doesn’t deserve it.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
you're an idiot
you have no substance and should be banned. you can’t refute his stats (PERIOD).
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Why was he traded that much when he had
clearly demonstrated that he was a good pitcher?
How come he didn’t make more AS teams?
How come he didn’t do better in the Cy Young voting?
How come he hasn’t been voted in yet although he hasn’t pitched in nearly 20 years?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
Both Sutton
and Niekro did worse in the Cy Young voting.
"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto
by Michael Cave on Jan 6, 2010 11:45 AM CST up reply actions
African American is the preferred nomenclature
"Support the Dutch Oven"
by RangerFloppy on Jan 6, 2010 11:46 AM CST up reply actions
Blyleven finished in the top 5 of Cy Young voting 3 times
while Don Sutton finished in the top 5 of Cy Young voting 5 times.
Sutton won more games, pitched on more AS teams, pitched twice as many post-season innings and was on far more relevant teams than Blyleven.
Try again.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
What does the relevance of a team have anything to do with it?
Or post season innings?
It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone. You count on it, rely on it to buffer the passage of time, to keep the memory of sunshine and high skies alive, and then just when the days are all twilight, when you need it most, it stops.
There's a difference between going 19-7 for the early 80's
Indians (Baseball Siberia) and being either the number 1 or 2 pitcher on one of the best teams in MLB for a 15 year period.
You didn’t see in his prime Don Sutton getting traded for Mike Cubbage or the 1980 version of Manny Sanguillen.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
Okay Bill James disciple
“Bert Blyleven has 339 Bill James win shares. The following pitchers already in the Hall of Fame have fewer: Nolan Ryan, 334; Ferguson Jenkins, 323; Red Ruffing, 322; Don Sutton, 319; Bob Gibson, 317; Eppa Rixey, 315; Ted Lyons and Jim Palmer, 312; Early Wynn, 308; Carl Hubbell, 306, Dennis Eckersley, 301. And that doesn’t include the 25 HofF pitchers whose totals are less than 300! Blyleven outranks 36 pitchers who are in the Hall of Fame, and no other pitcher not in the Hall does that (except Clemens and Maddux). D’uh!”
Reference: http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/157
"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto
by Michael Cave on Jan 6, 2010 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
So do you consider Blyleven's transcendent moment
in the 1980’s that game he pitched in late September ’84 to ensure the Tribe finished ahead of both the White Sox & Mariners for the 10th best record in AL?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
OBJECTION!
Relevancy?
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
Dykstra has all the money!
ElectricOkra.com
once again
youre blaming blyleven for his teammates sucking
or that he doesnt have special jeter-power to make the scott brosiuses of the world better
Thing is, that's Blyleven's Big Moment
in the 1980s.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
Blyleven was on 2 WS champs
do you think he had nothing to do with that?
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
One more than Saint Jesus Nolan
Who wasn’t exactly on a ton of relevant teams himself…
"To have the judgment and wisdom and personal touch of Nolan Ryan, and the tremendous group that JD has assembled, I think the Rangers on the baseball side are the envy of every franchise in baseball in terms of talent."
-- Chuck Greenberg
RC Cook
Please meet the ’69 Mets.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
and Nolan threw all of 89 innings and was 6-3
mainly out of the bullpen in ’69. He was traded only 2 years after that season. Nolan Ryan was never a relevant piece of a World Series Champion.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Why would they trade Nolan is he was deserving of the HOF?
"Support the Dutch Oven"
by RangerFloppy on Jan 6, 2010 12:51 PM CST up reply actions
Nolan Ryan was traded from the Mets
for a variety of reasons but namely for his inability to harness his talent.
The Angels, Astros and Rangers never traded him although he was allowed to leave as a free agent.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
Didn't Blyleven give up 50 HRs on that '87 Twins team?
On the ’79 Pirates, he was the #3 pitcher behind Candelaria and Kison.
Hell, Bibby and Tekulve were more relevant pitchers for We Are Family.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
Blyleven was 5 - 1 with a 2.47 ERA in the postseason
so yeah, I he was very relevant to those teams winning
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
x
he was 36yrs old on the 87 twins team
roger clemens was the #3 pitcher on the the ’99 yankees
your argument is invalid
Roger Clemens was a HOF pitcher
before he went to the ’99 Yankees.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
only 233 wins before '99
and lack of more wins is the big reason why blyleven is out
and blyleven should have been a no doubt hof pitcher by the time he was on the ’87 twins if it werent for idiots over-valuing a dumb stat
Roger Clemens had 5 Cy Young
awards and 6 ERA titles before the ’99 season.
Don’t compare Clemens to Blyleven.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
other things Clemens got that Blyleven didn't
injections of steroids
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
x
You didn’t see in his prime Don Sutton getting traded for Mike Cubbage or the 1980 version of Manny Sanguillen.
Cubbage, Howell, and $250K when he was a few months away from free agency, actually, and when $250K was a crapload of money to change hands in a baseball deal.
He wasn’t traded for Sanguillen, either.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 6, 2010 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
Excuse me, not Manny Sanguillen but the great Bob
Owchinko!!!
Traded by the Pittsburgh Pirates with Manny Sanguillen to the Cleveland Indians for Gary Alexander, Victor Cruz, Bob Owchinko and Rafael Vasquez
Bert Blyleven was traded for a big bag of shit in the middle of his prime.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
adrian gonzales
was traded for adam eaton and aki otsuka, but that doesnt make him a bad player
Adrian Gonzales
played for a GM who didn’t know what the F he was doing.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
so did blyleven
since they couldnt build a team worth a shit to put around him, which is precisely why he isnt in the hall of fame
Yes, yes he was
He was also involved in three deals where a lot of talent and cash was given up to land him.
The Great Bill James considers him a HOFer. I thought that would be good enough for you.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 6, 2010 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
Cubbage & Smalley were considered busts
in 1976, Adam. You were a little guy at the time but those years were a part of my baseball wheelhouse.
Jay Bell in ’85 was only appreciated by his parents and surely not the Indians who got rid of him fairly soon.
Truly great pitchers in their primes don’t bounce around like a fruitcakes at Christmas for the Bob Owchinkos of the world.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
Smalley
A 23 year old shortstop and former first round pick holding his own in the majors at the time he was dealt.
Glad to know you had already written him off as a bust.
Also interesting to see that you are ignoring the rather large sum of cash the Rangers kicked in.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 6, 2010 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
$ 250,000 was a decent chunk
at the time but that year most of the really good players like Blue, Fingers and Rudi went for the $ 400,000 max established by Bowie Kuhn.
You didn’t see Don Sutton, Nolan Ryan, Jim Palmer, Gaylord Perry, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver get traded more than once, if at all, when they were in their primes of 25-34 years old.
Bert Blyleven was considered so great that he was traded four times between the ages of 25-34.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
Okay
You are wrong, but you are dug in on your position and refuse to consider reason, so I’m not responding to you on this issue anymore.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 6, 2010 12:29 PM CST up reply actions
Is this something new regarding Josey?
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
How come Sutton, Ryan, Palmer, Perry, Carlton
and Seaver weren’t traded (every team felt they would be better off without him) more than once between the ages of 24-34 while Blyleven was dealt four times?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
Of course nobody in the Pro-Blyleven
Camp wants to answer this question because the facts of what actually happened get in the way of their highly romantic revisionist history.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
I just hope he gets in..
So this thread won’t happen again for the next 3 years…I could care less about him tarnishing the HOF as long as you shut the fuck up about it…And that goes for all of you who get baited so easily too…
"Support the Dutch Oven"
by RangerFloppy on Jan 6, 2010 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
Meaning that we're all supposed
to agree with everything Adam says about the Great Game without questioning?
So instead of a discussion board you’d rather read something akin to a blogosphere circle jerk?
Blyleven may very well get in today but the bar of accepted greatness will have been lowered.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
I don't care to jump into the circle jerk either...
I just get sick of you and the rest of the LSB baitin’ community hijacking every thread…They circle jerk off Adam but you jerk off into your own mouth 99% of the time. You aren’t going to change their opinions because they think you are a dusty old fart, and they won’t change yours because you think you are superior to everyone who isn’t named Jesus or Nolan Ryan. And look at me, f*cking baited, damn you’re good…
"Support the Dutch Oven"
I'm a fan of catch n' release so you'll be okay.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
You are the internet version of Vigo from Ghostbusters 2...
You grow stronger with everyone’s anger and whining…
"Support the Dutch Oven"
Actually
In looking at it, Owchinko and Cruz were fairly well regarded young pitchers. Both in their early 20s, Owchinko a recent first round pick, Cruz coming off a couple of very solid seasons in the pen.
It was a bad trade, but it wasn’t like the Pirates got nothing that was perceived as having any value at the time.
Of course, Mark Teixeira got traded for a bag of shit the Angels no longer wanted, as well, so I supposed that he’s not a future HOFer.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 6, 2010 12:12 PM CST up reply actions
You said in so many words what should have
been said just 5 words – It was a bad trade.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
Here
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_cya.shtml
"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto
by Michael Cave on Jan 6, 2010 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
That's a big part of the problem with Blyleven's candidacy...
you have to go to the extremely small print in the document to see if he’s a true candidate for the HOF.
If you have to do that, the player is most likely not a HOF candidate.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
please refer to my comment above the one you just responded to
"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto
by Michael Cave on Jan 6, 2010 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
That wasn't the question...
Do you like your job?
"Support the Dutch Oven"
by RangerFloppy on Jan 6, 2010 11:45 AM CST up reply actions
Your "arguments" are incredibly dumb
Why’d he get traded? GMs wanted to.
Why few AS games? People didn’t vote for him.
Why few Cy Young votes? People didn’t vote for him.
Why isn’t he in the HOF (this is really dumb)? People didn’t vote for him.
Thanks for proving you can’t think for yourself.
It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone. You count on it, rely on it to buffer the passage of time, to keep the memory of sunshine and high skies alive, and then just when the days are all twilight, when you need it most, it stops.
The only people who are considering Blyleven
HOF worthy are those who look at his career through the window of revisionist history.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
How in the fuck do you look at someone's career except through revisionist history?
Gotta wait till his fucking thing’s over, right? Nitwit.
It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone. You count on it, rely on it to buffer the passage of time, to keep the memory of sunshine and high skies alive, and then just when the days are all twilight, when you need it most, it stops.
Just a thought
Having a different viewpoint from someone is acceptable, and not a cause for disdain, scorn, or derision.
Being an asshole, however? A cause for all three.
"To have the judgment and wisdom and personal touch of Nolan Ryan, and the tremendous group that JD has assembled, I think the Rangers on the baseball side are the envy of every franchise in baseball in terms of talent."
-- Chuck Greenberg
by RCCook on Jan 6, 2010 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
everything
is simply explained by the over-valuation of wins. his teams were crappy so he didnt post guady win totals and thats it. EVERYTHING else says he’s a great pitcher. theres really no debate
and yet he was 13 wins shy of 300
how many pitchers aren’t in the HoF with those win numbers?
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
One
Tommy John
"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto
by Michael Cave on Jan 6, 2010 12:05 PM CST up reply actions
and everybody cringes when they hear his name
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Haha
Yep. Hell his name has to be said more than any player in MLB right?
"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto
by Michael Cave on Jan 6, 2010 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
gil hodges
still ain’t in
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
Agree with (sic) Ranger!
Only Alomar and Blyleven get in. The voters have a history of being very stingy with their votes. I would like to see Dawson, Raines, and McGuire also get elected. They are also deserving in my opinion.
Kinda OT but the 2013 ballot will be quite interesting:
First timers: Bonda, Piazza, Clemens, Sosa, Schilling, and Biggio. If the committee is keeping McGwire out right they have to do the same to Sosa, Bonds, and Clemens right?
"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto
I agree
if McGwire doesn’t get in, you can’t vote on Bonds, Sosa or Clemens. I’m ok with them all not getting in.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
I don't know...
I still think you have to let them in. Baseball and performance enhancing drugs have always gone hand in hand. Those guys put up numbers in an era where the playing field was probably relatively level (just don’t tell that to Mike Young). When at least 13% of the league fails a drug test I don’t think you can justify leaving two of the games most prolific career players (Bonds and Clemens) out of the hall. McGwire and Sosa can be left out in my book, but when you look at the career numbers for Bonds and Clemens, regardless of their tainted PED history, I still think they deserve it.
"Support the Dutch Oven"
by RangerFloppy on Jan 6, 2010 11:15 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed! (found the reply button!)
The PED tainted players are going to be an interesting group! The Sosa’s, McGwire’s, Man-Ram’s of the game,….the sluggers……may have a really hard time getting in, while guys like Pudge could get a pass.
by COURT JESTER on Jan 6, 2010 11:30 AM CST up reply actions
what 13% was it?
I’d like to see that full list that failed, and I would bet the majority of them are the top players of the game, so yeah, I don’t give any of them a pass.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
So no one between 1994 and 2004 should make the Hall?
Based on the logic of “well, how do we know who it was” you would elect to just write off an entire decade of recorded baseball history
"Support the Dutch Oven"
by RangerFloppy on Jan 6, 2010 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
MLB knows more about who was doing it
than we do, but they won’t release it because they think that will taint the game further. Put it out there, and be done with it. If those 100 or so players who failed their test are mostly bums, then fine, but I tend to doubt that fact.
the list above — Bonds, McGwire, Piazza, Clemens and Sosa were all linked to steroids. Are there going to be no repercussions for their actions.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
I agree about the list...
They should make it public, let the players take their licks, and move on. But until they do you can’t write off an entire era of baseball.
"Support the Dutch Oven"
by RangerFloppy on Jan 6, 2010 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
Bonds and Clemens were Hall of Famers without steroids, without a doubt.
I would put McGwire and maybe Sosa in as well, but I don’t think their argument is the same as Bonds and Clemens. Bonds was the player of the decade by an enormous margin before he decided he needed to bulk up to break home run records. (By all accounts.)
their numbers are tainted
can you tell me when they started using steroids? If not, then it’s not without a doubt. Steroids matter as far as performance.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Well, all reports are that Bonds started in 1999.
And there’s plenty of reason to think that makes sense.
even so, if he started in 1999
half his HRs were when he was on the juice.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
So?
That wasn’t the point. The point was that had he retired at the end of 1998, he was still an easy Hall of Famer.
we don't know that he wasn't on them earlier
but the fact that he goes on the last 9 years of his career using steroids taints his entire career to me. Sure he was great before that, but he doesn’t get a pass.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
But I will still say that it's more likely Bonds is a Hall of Famer without steroids than McGwire.
That is my very simple point. That excluding McGwire doesn’t mean you have to exclude Bonds. Though I don’t exclude either. (Especially when neither has been proven guilty).
I understand your point
but this isn’t a court of law and HoF has alot to do with perception etc. Bonds and McGwire may have not been proven to have done steroids to the public, but there may have been proof.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Somewhere between these two pictures
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by RangerFloppy on Jan 6, 2010 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
Apart from roids does McGwire deserve to be in?
It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone. You count on it, rely on it to buffer the passage of time, to keep the memory of sunshine and high skies alive, and then just when the days are all twilight, when you need it most, it stops.
if there never was steroid speculation in the game
he probably gets in because of his HR total. no one is left off with more than 500 HRs. Since then his HR total has been eclipsed by a couple players (Bonds, Sosa, Arod, Griffey with Thome/ManRam closing in and Palmeiro close behind McGwires 583). How many of those guys have been speculated of using steroids? I really hope Griffey didn’t, as he was one of my favorite players to watch, but as he goes in that list, one has to wonder. That is what that generation is left with.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Absolutely
One of the 5-6 best first basemen of all time.
There are a handful of people who still think batting average is the be-all end-all who claim he’s one dimensional, but they ignore the fact that he was an extremely high OBP guy along with being a tremendous home run hitter.
He was two dimensional, and was dominant in those two dimensions.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 6, 2010 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
There needs to be some sort of resolution here
I think that year may force it. Once the HOF vote becomes a referendum on who definitely took steroids, it’s going to get silly.
McGwire – sure. Not much debate there.
Bonds – definitely. But he was a HOFer anyway
Clemens, same thing; though the steroids evidence isn’t quite as strong as the above two
Sosa, Palmeiro – would they be HOFers without steroids? Was Palmeiro always on them or just at the end? Who knows…
So the voter says “no steroids in my HOF” – and never votes those guys.
What about Jeff Bagwell? He’s a HOFer, but it wouldn’t shock anyone if he was implicated? What about Pudge, who was implicated by Canseco, Mr. Reliable? Craig Biggio – no one ever accused him that I know of, but he played in that era…
Something has to be done. Something along the lines of an “amnesty” granted by X% of the writers. If you confess to steroids, your name goes on a steroids plaque in the Hall, but the writers agree to vote on you blind to your steroids accusation. If you don’t confess, you are at the whim of the voters.
Go Rice Owls!
if Hawk gets in, does that pave the way for D. Murphy at some point too?
Nobody is perfect, i am nobody, therefore, i am perfect
by 34express on Jan 6, 2010 11:12 AM CST via mobile reply actions
(the reply button is your friend)
"Support the Dutch Oven"
by RangerFloppy on Jan 6, 2010 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
So... uh...
Whoopsy-doodle?
If the Rangers were in the playoffs... the soundtrack could be one long continuous fart, and I would love it. - cmkelly
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