Buster Olney on Cliff Lee and Alex Rodriguez
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 10, 2010 11:11 AM CST
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PrintBuster Olney weighs in on the ongoing Cliff Lee negotiations, and wonders what the Rangers ownership is doing:
If the Rangers intend to include Lee in a payroll of $80 million to $100 million in the years ahead, then no, [giving Lee a seven year deal at $20+ million per year] makes no sense whatsoever. It's A-Rod all over again: Tom Hicks gave Rodriguez $252 million and within three years he figured out the situation was completely unworkable, because one player, as good as he was, tied up too much money.
But remember: The Rangers' ownership group that is headed by Chuck Greenberg and Nolan Ryan is backed by extraordinary wealth, and if one of the billionaire owners decides that a Lee signing would be separate from the rest of the payroll, well, then it makes more sense for the baseball operations guys to sign on.
I've heard of situations where an owner will tell his general manager that he -- the owner -- will take responsibility for a particular signing. In other words, the owner says, "I'll pay for this player and in effect, he won't be part of the budget we give you."
Olney, like Evan Grant, invokes Alex Rodriguez as proof that you can't win with that much of your team's payroll tied up in one player.
However...
In 2002 and 2003, the Rangers payroll was just over $100 million per year. Alex Rodriguez was making $23 million per year. ARod's salary was 22% of the Rangers' payroll in those years.
The 2010 Rangers had an Opening Day payroll of $64 million. $16 million of that was for Michael Young. 25% of the Rangers' payroll was dedicated to one player, a player not as good as Alex Rodriguez, a player earning a bigger percentage of the team's payroll than ARod did.
And yet, they still made the playoffs. And not only made the playoffs, but went to the World Series.
Writers have continued to perpetuate this myth that no team can afford a top player without a $150 million payroll. As a result, the conventional wisdom is now that only Boston, the Yankees, and maybe the Mets and Angels should even consider signing a superstar, because otherwise, payroll will be too top heavy.
But the problem with the ARod contract wasn't that he was being paid 22% of the team's $105 million. It was that Doug Melvin and John Hart did a really, really lousy job of surrounding him with talent, wasting ridiculous sums of money on players like Juan Gonzalez, Chan Ho Park, and Rusty Greer, who did basically nothing.
Paying $20+ million per year on one of the best players in the game isn't a problem. Paying $13 million per year for a headcase pitcher with back problems who can't pitch away from Chavez Ravine, or $15 million per year for a 30-something free agent outfielder who can't stay healthy, or $10 million per year for a fan favorite who couldn't get on the field anymore, is the problem.
And Hicks' second problem was deciding he wasn't willing to maintain the $100 million payrolls, and deciding he was just going to slash payroll, go with a small-market business model, and hope for the best.
The response when I point out the Michael Young/Alex Rodriguez payroll similarities is, well, yeah, but Young was only getting paid $16 million, while ARod was getting $25 million. Which ignores the fact that that cuts against the argument that is being advanced...when ARod was a Ranger, the rest of the team made $80 million per year. The Rangers, when Alex Rodriguez was here, paid every non-Rodriguez major leaguer on the team more than the entire major league payroll has been for the Rangers in every year from 2004 through 2010.
Which isn't to say that breaking the bank for Lee, committing seven years at $25 million for Lee, is the smart path. We've talked before about how, if you want to trade for an elite player, the package of prospects you are going to give up is going to hurt. If the package you are contemplating doesn't hurt to part with, it probably isn't a realistic deal.
Similarly, to sign an elite player, you are going to generally have to commit more money than you are comfortable with, and guarantee more years than you probably think is prudent. That's the nature of the beast.
But the idea that signing Lee would be a repeat of Alex Rodriguez, and the Rangers would suddenly find themselves unable to afford to surround Lee with talent were they to do this deal, is nonsense.
It may be that they money they are talking about spending on Lee could be spent more prudently on other players. And it may very well be that the Lee contract would hamstring them in the final years of the deal, when he's no longer a $20 million pitcher. In fact, I think you go into this deal expecting that will probably be the case.
But let's quit peddling the idea that Lee, and Rodriguez, prove that teams like the Rangers simply can't compete with those sorts of salaries on the books.
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Just to plagiarize my own material:
-——————————————————————————————
Of course, the easiest way to put it:
Player WAR Salary (mil)
2001 A-Rod 8.0 $22
2001 EVERYONE ELSE 20.0 $662002 A-Rod 8.2 $22
2002 EVERYONE ELSE 20.5 $832003 A-Rod 7.7 $22
2003 EVERYONE ELSE 8.3 $83TOTAL A-Rod 23.9 $66
TOTAL EVERYONE ELSE 48.8 $232
So in other words, A-Rod provide 33% of the team’s value for 22% of the payroll and was a better deal than the other 24 players on the roster at any given time despite a ton of the other players being cost-controlled and A-Rod having by far the richest contract in MLB history.
Blaming A-Rod for the Rangers crashing and burning is just stupid beyond belief.
by D.Szymborski on Dec 10, 2010 11:17 AM CST reply actions 8 recs
That is pretty powerful when laid out like this.
Thanks.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Anyone who watched those teams
knows that ARod was not the problem. He had three of his best years here. He was just flat-out awesome.
RIP Feldman
Lots of people who were paid to watch those teams...
…said ARod was the problem.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 10, 2010 11:50 AM CST up reply actions
Like who?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
by Josey Wales on Dec 10, 2010 11:51 AM CST up reply actions
Come on
Were you not paying attention in 2003 and 2004?
Did you not read all the articles from the D/FW media talking about how smart it was of Tom Hicks to unload ARod, because the Rangers couldn’t win with him and his salary here?
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 10, 2010 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
Ok..I thought you were inferring that it was
people who worked for the Rangers.
ARod was a spectacular player during his time here.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
by Josey Wales on Dec 10, 2010 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
Well
Jon Daniels said at Newberg Night in 2004 that trading ARod was the right thing to do.
And Buck and Hart both wanted Rodriguez gone.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 10, 2010 11:58 AM CST up reply actions
Well, Jon Daniels was full of shit at Newberg Night in 2004.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
by Josey Wales on Dec 10, 2010 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think trading A-Rod was inherrently the wrong thing to do.
It was trading him for crap and AND continuing to pay a bunch of his contract.
Soriano and Arias were crap?
Ok…Yea Arias definitely did end up being that way. But that’s the way prospects go. I’m not saying it was even talent wise.
On the other hand the Soriano for Wilkerson was crap.
"Hell's frozen over, Pigs are flying! The Saints have won the Super Bowl"
Shreveport Captains in LSB H2H Fantasy League
Soriano and Arias were crap
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Brad fucking Wilkerson.
Could we not have gotten something better for Soriano?
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
At the time...
…it looked like a good return.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 10, 2010 5:35 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, Soriano and Arias were crap.
With the money we pumped in to that deal and the talent we gave up, absolutely.
And that’s before considering Arias as a bust and Soriano as mediocre in Texas.
It probably was the right thing to do.
ARod was disgruntled with the direction of team so it gave him a chance to start over and eventually would push the Rangers towards developing a new strategy for team development.
Deals that never were
I believe that the Rangers had a deal in place with Boston (Manny and Lester), but the Union or somebody else had a problem with all the defferred money. Also, Robinson Cano was in a small pool of prospects the Rangres could have taken but didn’t. Yeah yeah, what the scouting reports said back then don’t correspond to what we know now. Still, if the Rangers had traded Arod to Boston we’d feel a lot differently about the whole thing. It is unfortunate how things turned out.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 10, 2010 12:33 PM CST up reply actions
the union gave them a LOT of pushback
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 12:56 PM CST up reply actions
Can you keep the Arias/Cano choice handy
when people scream don’t trade Profar to get Greinke?
You can only be young once but can be immature forever!
I remember this quite well
The union didn’t bust this deal up, although the union did have a problem w/ the deferred money, true. Tom Hicks and his bigmouthed, blowharding ass did.
The deal was so big that Hicks told Hart he would handle it with John Henry. Owner to bigballin owner. Henry got so disgusted with Hicks leaking every last deet to the press that he finally said fuck it.
The Sox were actually going to kick IN money for Manny and throw in Lester (Lester was not nearly the prospect he later ended up being, he was like a Robbie Erlin, not an MP).
That trade would have been just fine.
"I don’t know how these SN blog authors get their gigs, but I’m frankly surprised SN tolerates AJM’s lack of effort." Tex34
Hey Arod. You're fucking out. And we're fucking in.
"If we do that," Lee says, "it would be hard to walk away."
by Brian Thomas on Dec 11, 2010 12:48 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, that's the thing.
I really think there was a good argument for moving A-Rod. But for what the Yankees offered, they should have kept him.
I mean, if our current FO is as bright as we say. . .
. . . is it that unlikely they wouldn’t have been able to continue to build a strong farm and add players the way they have while keeping A-Rod? Sure, he’d be disgruntled while the team was rebuilt around him, but whatever. We’d have A-Rod.
We probably do
If you’re talking about just performance on the field and not taking other factors into consideration. He was worth 6.6 WAR that year, Soriano was 1.9, and Young was at 2.5 thanks to being so horrible at SS whereas he was merely below average at 2B. Theres a potential 6-7 win swing there. And of course we lost the division by 3 wins which included being .500 against the top 2 teams in the division that year.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I think there's a good chance he would have been worth more than 6.6, too.
I’m not sure if he adapted to third quickly enough to make up for moving down the spectrum in terms of positional value.
Plus, if we hadn't moved him...
….we would never have gotten the glory of the Bronson Arroyo Basepath Slapfest.
by FuturePants on Dec 10, 2010 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
And if JD had said that trading ARod (the player of his generation in the middle of his prime) and also paying the Yankees
$ 9 million per was a horrific idea, chances are that Tom Hicks wouldn’t have named him GM in October 2005.
Buck, Hart and JD all had to say those things because the owner suddenly wanted the team on a small market payroll.
Speaking out against Hicks at the point wasn’t smart if you were a true Corporate Survivalist (JD’s biggest strength).
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
by Josey Wales on Dec 10, 2010 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, but...
Once A-Rod figured out he wanted to be somewhere else, and once the word started getting around he was trouble in the clubhouse, you can honestly say it was best if he was traded.
However, when he was traded to the Yankees, and the Rangers paid a portion of his salary, then to me it was a salary dump, and that was not justified. To this day, my happiest day was the day that A-Rod opted out of his contract, and theoretically with the new contract the Rangers didn’t have to pay part of his contract.
ARod was beaten down by what he perceived to be
the hopelessness of the situation when he saw what was going on between Boston & NYY that year.
The bitch of it was that we really weren’t that far away (as evidenced by the 89-73 team in 2004 with Soriano) and if we had won 95 games with ARod, I think he would have stayed.
The cockroach at the picnic who ruined everything was Tom Hicks.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
by Josey Wales on Dec 10, 2010 12:49 PM CST up reply actions
Hicks had his part to play
and Hart had a bigger part to play (as it was he who signed the supporting cast. Don’t forget Carl Everett).
The media also played a big part in the fiasco, as they fed the whole, “its A-Rod’s fault” mantra. Hicks, reacting to the media and negative attention, made a bad choice.
Book: [to Mal] If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.
Plenty of blame to go around for the dismal decisons made ten years ago.
I wonder what would have happened if Hicks would have listened to Doug Melvin and start the rebuilding process before Hicks was ever around?
You can only be young once but can be immature forever!
You mean Hart
and I don’t know. probably very good things.
Lets see: You don’t sign A-Rod, you don’t sign Galarraga and Caminiti, You don’t sign Park, or Gonzalez, or resign Greer.
Probably trade Ruben Sierra and Rafael Palmeiro and maybe even explore trading Ivan Rodriguez. Give the first base job to Carlos Pena. Trade Rogers and give Duchscherer and Benoit more chances in the rotation.
Book: [to Mal] If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.
Yes Hart.
But your analysis is dead on!
You can only be young once but can be immature forever!
No Melvin
Wanted to start rebuilding and Hicks told him no and that he wanted to win. Melvin was fired and Hart was brought in and the madness insued.
Hart instead of the second Hicks.
Book: [to Mal] If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.
Don't forget about Buck's involvement in the whole thing
Buck wasn’t exactly helping the situation out by forcing them to trade him right away.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I wonder if Jon Daniels 2010 would say the same.
He wouldn’t go on record, but I’d love to hear over a beer/scotch whatever how he would analyze that situation today.
Godspeed Mike Olt.
JD wouldn't say it was a good thing to do....nobody with a baseball brain would.
Tom Hicks bought silence (refusal to criticize) from several people affiliated with the organization and various media outlets that covered the team.
Remember Evan Grant and the Very Blah Kevin Sherrington calling Hicks the best owner the Rangers ever had earlier this year?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
by Josey Wales on Dec 10, 2010 12:59 PM CST up reply actions
Not to kick that dead horse
but compared to Brad Corbett and Bob Short, Hicks is a combination of Mother Theresa and Einstein.
Book: [to Mal] If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.
I never questioned Brad Corbett's desire to win.
He made things very exciting and we had one of our best teams in his regime.
He just ran out of $$$ when his plastic pipe company went belly-up.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
If by "exciting" you mean
turning a decent franchise into a pile of crap, then yes.
Fergie Jenkins for Steve Barr, Juan Beniquez, and Craig Skok (as the PTBNL)
As part of a 4-team trade, traded Tommy Boggs, Adrian Devine and Eddie Miller to the Atlanta Braves, a player to be named later and Tom Grieve to the New York Mets and Bert Blyleven to the Pittsburgh Pirates. Received Nelson Norman and Al Oliver from the Pittsburgh Pirates and Jon Matlack from the New York Mets. In addition, the Atlanta Braves sent Willie Montanez to the New York Mets; and the New York Mets sent John Milner to the Pittsburgh Pirates. The Texas Rangers sent Ken Henderson (March 15, 1978) to the New York Mets to complete the trade.
Book: [to Mal] If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.
Nelson Norman
I got his autograph at JC Penney’s at Ridgmar Mall back in 1978- he was there doing a store appearance. I still have the photo he signed, though it’s probably not worth much.
"Scared? We're not scared...We do this every day. Scared is being in a prison yard."- Michael Young
Manos De Oro / Norman.
Corbett created excitement by signing Campy, Alexander, Medich, Zisk and trading for Blyleven, Perry, Kern, Matlack, Bonds, Bell and Jenkins (got him back in ’78).
The team in ’79 started the season 52-38 before crashing but it was a very exciting trip.
In ’81, they narrowly missed the first half championship and the playoffs.
He wasn’t the most competent owner but he wanted to win very badly.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
Chuckles the Clown
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Corbett
The last straw seemed to occur when it became public that Corbett was trading players based upon the opinion of his young son, Brad Jr
Book: [to Mal] If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.
Dan Patrick used to be one of the worst
Anytime the topic of the Rangers came up he always resorted to the line of “They should have used the money instead to buy pitching”. I used to wish Dibble would remind him the best pitcher in 2000 was Mike Hamilton and the best pitcher in 01 was Chan Ho. How Patrick was able to make a career using that logic is beyond me.
And in 03 I got tired of telling people if you had taken A-Rod’s salary away you’d have the same payroll as the then-Champs Anaheim Angels. Those early 2000s were not fun years.
"Losers assemble in little groups and bitch about the coaches and the system and other players in other little groups. Winners assemble as a team."
- Bill Parcells
I remember the meme in '04. . .
“All these young guys, they didn’t think they had to actually play because they were with A-Rod and he wasnt’ a leader. They just waited for him to win games, and now that he’s gone, they’re realizing they can do it themselves.”
/kruk
AWESOME>
Blaming A-Rod for the Rangers crashing and burning is just stupid beyond belief.
cany you link me to where that is originally posted (want to read the whole story if that is part of one)
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 12:55 PM CST up reply actions
That was just a comment I made on a BTF post, not part of a larger article.
by D.Szymborski on Dec 10, 2010 5:57 PM CST up reply actions
Funny thing is
That the Yankees gave him bonuses of $40 million that bring the total value of his deal to $315 million, so that kinda goes against the thoery. It’s rather obscene if you ask me.
How or why is it obscene?
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
How is it not?
Up here most of the media hates him. The steroids, cheating on his wife, his perception of being ’’plastic’’, and a ’’phony’’. No one up here likes him, including most Yankees fans. That’s how and why.
real question for you
do you think the owners give a flying fuck?
his career OPS+ in NY is 147
he has won 2 MVPs
he will have the all time HR record probably.
he has helped his team win games.
his contract was hella front loaded as a yankee (31, 29, 28, 25, 21, 20 20 from 2011-2017)
his bonuses are:
$30M marketing agreement based on home run milestones ($6M each for reaching 660, 714, 755 and tying and breaking major league HR record)+ a 10 mil signing bonus (sabathia got 9mm, teix got 5, burnett got 6, jeter got 16 (!!!) in his 2001 deal, etc etc etc)
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 1:39 PM CST up reply actions
What do any of those things have to do with his contract?
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Because at the time
He had not won a WS, and was still known as a choker. I’m talking back when he opted out and Yankees management said he was gone. Then he wormed back in. No wonder Cashman is the weasel.
just throwing this out there
AROD OPS by level of playoffs:
ALDS: .811
ALCS: 1.047
WS: .973
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 1:53 PM CST up reply actions
excuse me while I whip this out
They said you was hung..
And they was right!
Godwin's Law Version 2.0 (Rangers Edition)
"As a Ranger discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Danks, Volquez, or Young approaches one."
by LBBRangerFan on Dec 10, 2010 11:33 AM CST up reply actions
where all the white women at?
(Wife) "So what do you want to watch on the T.V.? UFC or porn?"
(Husband) "Hmm... well, porn, I guess."
God darnit Mr. Lamarr, you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore.
Godwin's Law Version 2.0 (Rangers Edition)
"As a Ranger discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Danks, Volquez, or Young approaches one."
by LBBRangerFan on Dec 10, 2010 11:46 AM CST up reply actions
Naw--We pear the shit out of them at the Number 6 Dance later on!
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Badges, We don't need no stinkin' Badges!
Godwin's Law Version 2.0 (Rangers Edition)
"As a Ranger discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Danks, Volquez, or Young approaches one."
by LBBRangerFan on Dec 10, 2010 12:24 PM CST up reply actions
You said pear twice
I like pear.
Hobson, did you see that?
Yes.
She stole that tie! It's the perfect crime. Girls don't wear ties; although some do. It's not a perfect crime, but it's a good crime.
Yes. If she murdered the tie it would be the perfect crime.
Anyone got any dimes?
Somebody’s gonna have to go back and get a shitload of dimes!
"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel
OLNEY SMASHED!
(Wife) "So what do you want to watch on the T.V.? UFC or porn?"
(Husband) "Hmm... well, porn, I guess."
Great stuff Adam
I have full faith in this ownership group and this front office to not make the same mistakes with the supporting cast as the previous regime made. With revenues and salaries increasing in baseball its very plausible that in 5 or 6 years the Rangers could have a 120+ million dollar payroll and still be in the middle of the pack in that regards. If our owners commit to being in the top tier of payrolls that could mean close to 150 million. A 25 million dollar player won’t hurt nearly as much as people make it out.
And the going rate for a decent #3 starter may be in the 16 million dollar range so while we may still be overpaying when Lee is 37 or 38 it won’t be as drastic as thought now.
Well written, Sheriff A.
How is that a market like Detroit can have a couple of players making $ 18-20 million and escaped criticism from the Buster Olneys of the world?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
The big problem isn't percent of payroll
but that most of the team’s importnatn players are also going to see jumps in salary too.
Go Rice Owls!
That's why I said this:
It may be that they money they are talking about spending on Lee could be spent more prudently on other players.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 10, 2010 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
Given everything (beating the Yankees on Lee again, organization morale, fan morale, etc)...
how important do you think it is to sign Cliff Lee? Could this be something where ownership is saying “this is our first big signing as owners and we are NOT going to lose this no matter what” (like one of the owners taking on the Lee contract himself) and take the sensible route with future signings and extensions?
I just think this would be a massive boost to this whole organization if they pulled this off…..
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 10, 2010 11:30 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
We are going to have some tough decisions ahead
We can’t be too loyal just for the sake of being loyal. For instance if Hamilton won’t sign a extension thats reasonable and then when hes a 33 year old FA asks for a 6 year deal we may have to say goodbye. Same with Kinsler and Cruz. We may be able to afford one loyalty contract on our hands but not multiple.
someone with twitter.. please tweet this to evan grant and buster olney
by I am Neftali Feliz on Dec 10, 2010 11:24 AM CST reply actions
Evan's gone off the deep end
and Olney and the National writers are having their scripts handed to them by the Yankeed brass – no use trying to reason with them
when something is so quickly and easily debunked, doesn’t it have to make you wonder why the writers won’t see what’s so obvious?
are you the moron who said that b/c olney used to work for the yankees he was only going to report in their favor?
or was that some other idiot onhere
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
if it was you, then yes you are a moron.
i guess you think keith law skewes his reporting in favor of the blue jays because i mean…they used to pay him too right?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 1:29 PM CST up reply actions
just for the sake of it
What Olney said was garbage – I don’t know or care who he used to work for
The tweets out of Florida from the ESPN/SI crew were mostly garbage – not even acknowledging there was another team in the mix
If you want to defend them, go for it
but if you have any expectations of a response, lose the blind assumptions and name calling – it disrespects what’s otherwise been an interesting discussion about contracts, roster construction the voice/agenda of some in the national media
heyman was a boras mouthpiece i thought?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 1:42 PM CST up reply actions
i will be even more blunt and point blank
anyone who thinks that olney or anyone else slants their reporting CLEARLY in favor of a team they used to work for is stupid.
the reason most people reported on lee going to NYY (which was more than just ESPN/SI btw…) was doing it because the odds of lee going to NYY from the day he became a FA were well over 90%. those odds are still, in my opinion, very close to 90%.
if you have any expectations of anyone thinking you are able to think clearly, lose the red-colored glasses and join the real world.
…or just go to the DMN, either way…
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 1:42 PM CST up reply actions
so you think Gammons hasn't ever had huge slants towards the Red Sox in his reporting?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
i think gammons is a good example. but gammons is the exception, not the rule.
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 1:54 PM CST up reply actions
example of someone who has clear slant
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 1:54 PM CST up reply actions
Kruk has one for Philly and Rosenthal gets wood
for the Orioles when they were relevant in the past.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
does anyone think that kruck is a real analyist?
…anyone?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
As Gary Koch once said about a Tiger Woods putt
He’s better than most, in answer to your question about Kruk.
kruk is better than most?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 2:06 PM CST up reply actions
Weirdly, Aaron Boone is becoming one of my "favorite" ex players.
He’s Bret Boone’s brother, so that doesn’t make any kind of sense.
I love Billy Ripken - probably my favorite.
He’s great on MLB and on XM with his brother.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
who is this guy?
and why is he posting here with this crap?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Heyman
was killing me during the MLB broadcasts from Florida
they’d ask him where Lee was going, and he’d just say NY … now, I’ll concede that since they have the most money, and he’s the best FA, that was the most likely destination
But he wouldn’t even talk about or mention the Rangers at all. It was almost like he was trying to avoid mentioning them in connection with Lee.
And really, despite the fact that he was/is most likely to go there, doesn’t the plucky underdog make a bit of an interesting tangent? Even the ‘gone hunting with other Rangers’ angle would have been an interesting side piece, as he proclaimed that the Yanks were still the most likely.
Heyman is more of a New York shill than your typical NY media type.
I think he’s in denial about it, though.
Then there’s his Boras thing.
yeah
if only it were accurate or well thought out…
by elvis1isking on Dec 10, 2010 2:05 PM CST up reply actions
A Face for an Ace
I believe it was Mitch Williams talking about it. Doubt he used those words though.
ugh, I could totally see Mitch Williams saying those exact words while he cocks his head back and forth....
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
I get your point
And I think you are right to suggest that they don’t do it intentionally.
However, certain reporters definitely slant their reporting towards a certain team based on information. Olney, being a former Yankee beat writer, probably has more connections in NY than he does elsewhere. This will naturally cause them to report on a certain team more, and likely more from their vantage point. The scoops has to come from somewhere.
Nice logic AJM.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
25 of 29 Deals over $100 Million
Great piece. I agree the A-Rod analogy is tired. To take this further, since I get the impression you really want to sign Cliff Lee, how does that square with all the minor deals we complain about (where saving one million dollars is paramount?).
That link from yesterday, the one that showed 29 contracts above $100 million have been signed. 25 of those contracts have gone to POSITION players – the top 5 being: A-Rod, A-Rod again, and Derek Jeter, Joe Mauer, and Mark Teixeira. As the article stated, ONLY four (4) of the 29 contracts have gone to pitchers. Which I’m assuming are: Hampton, Brown, CC, and Zito. Bottom line, forget A-Rod, isn’t that the issue? The long term data seems to say “stay away” from aging pitchers.
Maybe I’m missing something. It seems like a lot of you guys want to spend a lot of money for Lee and it seems shocking to me.
"Every noble work is at first impossible."
Well
I really want to sign Cliff Lee, and have him pitch awesome for the life of the deal, and the Rangers win a couple of World Series, and everyone to live happily ever after.
I’m fearful that Lee will turn into Barry Zito.
Both are possibilities. It is a risky, risky deal. But unless you expect your farm system to consistently churn out star players, at some point, you’ve got to pay big money to have a superstar.
It is a really tough call.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 10, 2010 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
I think the worry with Lee
is Kevin Brown, not Barry Zito
Look at Brown’s record-setting deal. He actually pitched great during it, he was just injured for about half of it. I can see that happening with Lee (not just descend into suck, like Zito)
Go Rice Owls!
Kevin Brown had a really good year when he was 38 years old (2.39 ERA / 211 IPs).
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
by Josey Wales on Dec 10, 2010 11:48 AM CST up reply actions
Now if we can just get Cliff Lee to take steroids...
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
And punch water coolers so hard it breaks his hand.
THEN we’d have something.
by FuturePants on Dec 10, 2010 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
Kevin Brown
I agree on Brown. I wish top-shelf baseball pitchers provided more certainty, but they don’t seem to do that. Had Sandy Koufax signed a 7 year deal at age 28, it would have been a disaster. I think he retired at 30? So many more experience the decline. I love Lee, his make-up, his image, his star power, his ability to maintain our WS story, and 10 other positives. I just hate 7/170. Can we “afford him”? Yes, the same way some new-money sales rep can afford a top-of-the-line BMW. But what about groceries, vacations, funding a retirement plan, and other expenses? What? The BMW is in the shop!?! F*ck!!!
"Every noble work is at first impossible."
And Brown
Based on 4.5mil/WAR, was worth 118mil over those seven years. How do we compare that? 3 out of 5 seasons he was <6 WAR.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Brown was paid about...
$10m-$15m over time, I think. Through 2005? But this 7/170 stuff? It’s like buying the right stock at the wrong time.
"Every noble work is at first impossible."
Isn't 4.5 million/WAR a bit high for that time?
Wasn’t he one of the only 100 million dollar contracts at that time?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Oh, I am sure it is, I don't know what it was then
???
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Its tough to see Lee just going all Zito on us
Zito wasn’t an ace anymore when he was a FA which is why the Giants paying him that much was such a horrible idea at the time.
Kevin Brown is probably the best comp for a player like Lee on the downsides of a big money deal. Its going to suck if Lee misses most of a season and that is 24-25 million dollars of a sunk cost for that year.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I see him as a Tom Glavine / Greg Maddux type who should age well.
If he gets a 6 year deal, he’ll be great in two of those years, good in two of those years and average in the other two years.
What we can’t have is Barry Zito or Chan Ho.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
by Josey Wales on Dec 10, 2010 12:52 PM CST up reply actions
To me...
it’s less about predicting Lee’s future performance and more about the money. At $120 million, it’s not so crazy, but, we are closing-in on a quarter of a billion now? I might prefer signing every Dominican player ever born.
"Every noble work is at first impossible."
You don't think
Daniels isn’t sitting there thinking the same thing plus signing every single draft choice and building a true dynasty.
He better be!
J. “Goodwill” D.
I know there were reasons (like Bankruptcy) but, we easily sign Matt Purke with another 2 or 3 million? This might cause another Purk-ish moment.
"Every noble work is at first impossible."
I think there's a chance
that he gives you a few more years of this 7 WAR performance and then follows that up with a few more years of 4 WAR performance. The problem is that the pitchers like Greg Maddux are so rare that you can never be truly confident anyone can repeat what he was able to do.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I agree goddamnit
I see him as a Kenny Rogers.
Hobson, did you see that?
Yes.
She stole that tie! It's the perfect crime. Girls don't wear ties; although some do. It's not a perfect crime, but it's a good crime.
Yes. If she murdered the tie it would be the perfect crime.
I read somewhere that maybe the reason Ray went along
is that sometimes owners finance a certain player outside of the budget given to the baseball people. So, if Cliff gets 25 million a year, that salary doesn’t count against the $80-$100 Million budget that had already been agreed to by the front office.
It is the ultimate way of saying, don’t worry, I got this.
Godwin's Law Version 2.0 (Rangers Edition)
"As a Ranger discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Danks, Volquez, or Young approaches one."
no kidding....I want to be a billionaire.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
It really makes me curious...
about how much Davis and Simpson have invested in the club. It kind of concerns me though about how fluid of a situation it will be going into the future with Greenberg as the CEO, Ryan as president but with Davis/Simpson most likely having the highest investments. It seems like a recipe for a power struggle. But then again I really don’t know anything about the ownership group other than those 4 plus Charlie Pride.
There is no power struggle
They are on the board, they have more voting shares than anyone else. IF they want something to happen or not, it will. They just didn’t want to deal with the media and day to day stuff. So they pay Chuck to do that.
In the corporate world, it is common for the largest shareholders to not hold a formal office (CEO, President, etc) but they still have the power.
Godwin's Law Version 2.0 (Rangers Edition)
"As a Ranger discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Danks, Volquez, or Young approaches one."
by LBBRangerFan on Dec 10, 2010 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
Just as long as it will stay this way.
Basically, just give the FO the flexibility to make the bulk of the baseball decisions and I will be fine.
Not just the day to day stuff
But I think they know Greenberg’s past and what he has been able to do with minor league franchises and know that he’s the best guy to run the team as a whole. Things like the new scoreboard or the concession deals last season are just examples of this.
Also, it always helps to have a good fan friendly face as the CEO who knows how to talk to the media and the fans. Greenberg’s got charisma
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
my understanding is that davis gave something like 450mm to buying the team.
granted this is third hand knowledge from me but that is my understanding. davis = the big money guy in the group
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 12:59 PM CST up reply actions
The presence of Davis
to me signaled that he could be there to make sure Lee knows that they are financially committed to the team beyond Lee — meaning they aren’t going to be hamstrung by signing him.
"I fully expect to lose tonight" -- LSJ
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 10, 2010 12:33 PM CST up reply actions
It also might be smart to give Lee the chance to
opt out of the deal if he doesn’t like the direction of the team…say after 4 years.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
by Josey Wales on Dec 10, 2010 12:40 PM CST up reply actions
Sure why not
The window most likely will have passed by then.
"I fully expect to lose tonight" -- LSJ
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 10, 2010 12:55 PM CST up reply actions
Sad Panda...not
Ryan Garko has signed a contract with a team in Korea
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
remember when everyone on LSB
was trying to rationalize bringing him in last year?
by I am Neftali Feliz on Dec 10, 2010 12:19 PM CST up reply actions
Yep
The A-Rod “problem” can be summed up in 3 points.
1) Tom Hicks did a horrific job of estimating his revenue stream. Hopefully the current ownership does better.
2) Doug Melvin’s farm did an inept job of adding cheap talent.
3) Melvin and Hart wasted money horribly in the Free Agent Market, and on washed up vets like Greer.
None of the problem was due to ARod not performing in line with his contract. ARod was giving the team almost 9 WAR per year for his 25 million and 25% of the revenues. Compare that to MY giving the team around 3 WAR per year for his 16 million and 25% of the revenues.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Ranger attendance jumped to 34,500+ (up 3000 from previous year) in ARod's
first year even though that was a 73-89 team.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
by Josey Wales on Dec 10, 2010 12:20 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah
but it dropped right back down to 29k and then below 26k the next two years.
The fact that it rebounded to 31K in 2004 when they won a few games tells you that no mater how much you give A-Rod, nothing puts butts in the seats like winning.
There is a real concern. The team bumps its payroll into the $80 million range and signs Lee.
But, Kinsler, Cruz and Hamilton get hurt an miss significant chunks of the season, Moreland flops, Young continues to regress, Borbon fails to develop, Wilson gets hurt (Verducci effect?), and Lewis regresses into the mid 5 range in ERA, plus variability on the part of the younger pitchers (Holland, Hunter, Feliz, etc) and all of a sudden the team tanks and finishes last or at least 15 games under .500.
Then, despite Lee’s strong efforts, people start staying away in droves again and now you start the financial crisis that plagued the team in the A-Rod era.
(not saying its going to happen, but it could.)
Book: [to Mal] If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.
The 2002 team was hideous and the 2003 team bolted the gate 27-47 while playing
a lot of very ugly baseball along the way. That’s why attendance went down but initially, ARod put a lot of butts in seats.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
One of the things I'm looking forward to ...
if the Rangers actually do win the Lee contest is reading the hilarious accusations in the nat’l columns about how foolish it is for the Rangers to dump that much money into one guy … and then to watch guys like Meno shred their histrionics to pieces.
Much better to read the NY papers who will surely be calling for Cashman's head.
Book: [to Mal] If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.
its really a no win situation
if we sign him then we are stupid for locking up that much payroll. if we dont then we are stupid for letiing him go. because obviously when the yankees want him everyone else should just get out of the way!!!
by stnlycupchmps99 on Dec 10, 2010 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
Well iblum
I live in NY, so when Cliff returns to the Rangers, i’ll be sure to link up the articles about it.
That's mighty kind of you.
especially for a MOTHER FUCKING YANKEE!!!!
:D
Book: [to Mal] If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.
sorry.
not the baseball team. its any person who lives in a northern state, particularly the north east, and even more particularly New York.
The term “Yankee” is a perjorative used by southerners.
Technically I am actually a “damn yankee” as I was not born in Texas but instead in Philadelphia. Being born in the north makes me a “yankee”. Living in texas for 37 years and not leaving makes me a “damn yankee”.
Book: [to Mal] If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.
You can't help where you were born or where you were raised.
You can only help where you chose to remain.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
I love being a New Yorker
Why would I want to go anywhere? It’s the greatest city on Earth. Tell me though, why do you always disagree with my comments? Not trying to start something. Just curious.
Where did I disagree with you on this one?
I was supporting my boy iblum.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
It seems like you've been disagreeing with me from the start
Again, I don’t want to start anything, nor do I keep track of the comments we make to each other, but it seems like we’re on opposite sides of my points, and we never agree. Also, I don’t mean to bring up Amazin’ Avenue again, but I was always conditioned over there to treat everyone equally, and by you saying he’s your ’’boy’’, it makes it seem like you treat him differently.
Have you lived anywhere besides Texas?
"I don’t know how these SN blog authors get their gigs, but I’m frankly surprised SN tolerates AJM’s lack of effort." Tex34
Hey Arod. You're fucking out. And we're fucking in.
"If we do that," Lee says, "it would be hard to walk away."
by Brian Thomas on Dec 11, 2010 1:08 AM CST up reply actions
really
you think Olney and the rest of the SI/ESPN crew will come after the Rangers for not letting the Yanks have what they want … I mean what they deserve (sarcasm)?
i bet you are one of those people who bitch at prospect guys for having enormous bias against your team.
because as you and everyone else knows. writers hate all non new york/boston teams right?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 1:31 PM CST up reply actions
Good analysis AJM!
The other issue becomes what have the Rangers been lacking to succeed over the years. It hasn’t been power production in my opinion. Even with A-Rod and Texeira being gone, the Rangers have been able to score runs and hit the ball out of the partk. But the pitching has been horrible, until the last two years.
Cliff Lee is the pitcher the Rangers could never get via Free Agency. He was a stopper in the rotation that could take you into the playoffs. Cliff Lee has played in Arlington, enoyed playing with the team, and had some success. He knows that he is more than capable of pitching with this team, despite some poster repeated quoting of his lack of success at RBiA. So if he is the one link that has not existed that it takes to keep this team at a very high level, it is pretty understandable that management/ownership is willing to spend serious money.
Hopefully Buster Olney, who I generally respect, will at least consider some of these arguments.
I just retweeted this, should go viral by end of business.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
Great analysis
My question(s) is: If not Lee who? And if not now then when?
I accept the risk of sigining a big FA contract. But what are the repurcussions of NOT signing Lee? The other big FA’s are under contract (most notably Crawford) so I don’t see a fit for a BIG signing left on the market. The second option is trading for a big time player (Greinke) which I am for but are risks associated with trading top prospects. One could ask the Braves how that Tex trade is going… The final option is pass on both Lee and a big time trade and see how the team does. This does nothing to build upon the momentum the Series provides and is perhaps the biggest risk of all if the team fails to perfrom well in 2011.
You can only be young once but can be immature forever!
what if we sign lee
I think we go after grienke with prospects at that point ant go all in
by I am Neftali Feliz on Dec 10, 2010 1:04 PM CST up reply actions
I would not go after Greinke unless we did sign Lee.
Greinke would thrive as a #2 behind Mr. Lee. Without Lee headlining the rotation I like Greinke a lot less even though he is still a great pitcher.
You can only be young once but can be immature forever!
Wilson
Wouldn’t you want to lock up Wilson as soon as possible? Assuming CC does not opt out of his current deal, Wilson looks to be like the most desireable name on the market. Other teams start getting involved in the bidding process, who knows what his next contract will be worth.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 10, 2010 1:04 PM CST up reply actions
wilson would be an idiot to sign an extension right now.
by I am Neftali Feliz on Dec 10, 2010 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe not.
Does the name Scott Feldman ring a bell? What if Feldman had decided to wait a year to further cash in?
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
If Feldman waited another year he'd still be in arbitration
CJ will be a free agent
Completely different situation
The idea is that Feldman would get less money, period.
IANF is arguing that CJ should wait to sign an extension so he can maximize his value. Waiting may not necessarily accomplish that goal.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Maybe
You won’t know until you try. It’s just that it is quite possible that the Rangers could miss out on Lee this year and Wilson next year. If you want to prioritize what the Rangers should do with their money, I would put Wilson towards the top.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 10, 2010 1:08 PM CST up reply actions
No, I would wait.
If you are able to sign Lee and trade for Greinke then….
You have to wait out most of the season to see how the team and individuals like CJ perform. The better the team perfroms the more moeny to resign him. CJ had a great first year in the rotation but arm could fall off…ditto for Colby.
You can only be young once but can be immature forever!
Yes yes yes. Keep saying it. Say it every day until people stop being stupid.
But the problem with the ARod contract wasn’t that he was being paid 22% of the team’s $105 million. It was that Doug Melvin and John Hart did a really, really lousy job of surrounding him with talent, wasting ridiculous sums of money on players like Juan Gonzalez, Chan Ho Park, and Rusty Greer, who did basically nothing.
Now, certainly, you want payroll flexibility. If you’re spending 20 million on A-Rod then having the money to survive problems is more difficult. If you can somehow find a way to get the same amount of runs for few dollars spent, obviously you do that. That’s hard to do. But the problem isn’t paying a guy what he’s worth just because he’s worth a lot. The problem is paying a bunch of other guys more than what they’re worth.
The thing that makes me care less about how much Lee gets
is if the Rangers owners really don’t care how much he costs and won’t let it affect the rest of the team. If that’s the case, then yeah, you could spend that money elsewhere, but its not likely you’re talking a billionaire or two out of getting his big name player and spending that money on lesser names.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Agreed.
Also, some of my comfort with overpaying for Lee is also thinking he’s in a position to partially pay for himself. As in, the Rangers right now have a shot at takign control of their epic media market and getting revenue streams previously unheard of for the franchise, and Lee — both in name value and in ability to help the team win important games — can help with that. If the Rangers win more pennants and playoff series, they could potentially be one of those teams were overpaying for a Cliff Lee can end up not being a killer, even with poor performances, and Cliff Lee can help with that in the short term.
this is what I think they're counting on
I refuse to believe that Greenberg and Co. don’t have a strong idea of the revenue that is expected to come in…
I never really thought the Rangers could go 7/160, but if the ownership and JD’s group have done their analysis and they feel they can compete at that level (whether it be the billionaires reaching into their own pockets for this special case or whatever) then I’m inclined to roll with it.
I just don’t want to see a Lee signing now and then in 3 years sit through another round of “we can’t allocate that much to one guy.”
by elvis1isking on Dec 10, 2010 2:13 PM CST up reply actions
Yep.
A lot of times, when a team makes a decision about playing time that looks wrong to us as fans, the correct response, as long as it’s not clearly stupid, is probably, “well, I don’t like it, but they should know more about the player than I do, so let’s hope they’re right.”
Giving the moon for Cliff Lee might be the same situation. I don’t like it, but they should know more about revenue than I do, so let’s hope they’re right.
If the owners truly consider Lee to be a special case and
aren’t going to piss and moan or blame the FO, you go balls out to get him and live with the back end of the contract..
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
When you have an opportunity
To get a guy like this, you do what you have to. You got a couple of billionaires backing the franchise. This is not a normal case. You go as far as you have to.
Can someone point out the last time a BIG FA signing panned out good for the team?
CC was very good in NYC but did not make it to the series. Others that I have been an advocate for Rangers to get involved include Schmidt/Dodgers, Zito/Giants, DiceK/Bosox, and Burnett/Yankees but there have been others.
You can only be young once but can be immature forever!
How did CC not pay off for the Yankees?
They signed him in 2009 and won the World Series that same year.
That doesn’t really matter, though, you don’t have to win it all for a FA signing to be worth it.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Just asking a question.
As far as CC, I purge the memories when the Yankees win.
I was just checking my thought process on FA signings as I am very much in favor of signing Lee. As I have been about signing Zito, and others. Just doing a check on how often it works out great for the team as opposed to the CHoP type of deals.
You can only be young once but can be immature forever!
cot's top 10 total value contracts
Total Value
The most lucrative contracts in baseball history, by total value:
Alex Rodriguez, $275,000,000 (2008-17)
Alex Rodriguez, $252,000,000 (2001-10)
Derek Jeter, $189,000,000 (2001-10)
Joe Mauer, $184,000,000 (2011-18)
Mark Teixeira, $180,000,000 (2009-16)
CC Sabathia, $161,000,000 (2009-15)
Manny Ramirez, $160,000,000 (2001-08)
Troy Tulowitzki, $157,750,000 (2011-20)
Miguel Cabrera, $152,300,000 (2008-15)
Carl Crawford, $142,000,000 (2011-17)
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
AROD ... top 2 contracts.
Dang it for that alone he should get into the Hall.
You can only be young once but can be immature forever!
well he is the best player of the last 30 years probably
…its one thing to hate him but he is an awesome player.
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 1:42 PM CST up reply actions
IMHO part of the reason they dont like arod is because he is not jeter
also b/c he is better than jeter heh
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 1:55 PM CST up reply actions
I think Bonds has a pretty good argument against it
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Barry Bonds = free agent
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
He was a big ticket free agent
and that worked out well for the Giants.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
i agree
but arod isnt out of baseball yet…
i should have said he would be the best player of the last 30 when he retire — should ahve been more clear there sry
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 1:55 PM CST up reply actions
going out on a limb here...
joe mauer
manny ramirez in boston
jason giambi in NYY
kevin brown dodgers
albert pujols cards (04-10)
chipper jones 01-06
barry bonds (02-06 — HIS OPS+ OVER THAT PERIOD WAS 230!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IN 2300+ PA’s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
sabathia w/ NYY
miguel cabrera w/ tigers
arod w/ texas
mo riveria 08-10 (15mm year)
in all of those situatiosn the player performed pretty damn well…
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 1:28 PM CST up reply actions
Teixeira with the MF Yankees, Damon with both the Red Sox & Yankees.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
Good list.
Only two pitchers though.
You can only be young once but can be immature forever!
here is cot's for highest paid pitchers
The highest-paid active starting pitchers, by average annual value:
C.C. Sabathia, $23,000,000 (2009-15) — good
Johan Santana, $22,916,667 (2008-13) — good
Roy Halladay, $20,000,000 (2011-13) — good
Carlos Zambrano, $18,300,000 (2008-12)
Barry Zito, $18,000,000 (2007-13) — clearly bad
Jake Peavy, $17,333,333 (2010-12)- bad- bad
A.J. Burnett, $16,500,000 (2009-13) -
John Lackey, $16,500,000 (2010-14) — meh
Justin Verlander, $16,000,000 (2010-14) — good
Jason Schmidt, $15,666,667 (2007-09) — injured (total of 10 starts)
Felix Hernandez, $15,600,000 (2010-14) — good
Derek Lowe, $15,000,000 (2009-12) — meh
Roy Oswalt, $14,600,000 (2007-11) — meh
Mark Buehrle, $14,000,000 (2008-11) — meh
Roy Halladay, $13,333,333 (2008-10) — damn good.
Ryan Dempster, $13,000,000 (2009-12) — meh
Chris Carpenter, $12,700,000 (2008-11) — very good
Bronson Arroyo, $12,500,000 (2009-10)- badbad
Kevin Millwood, $12,000,000 (2006-10) -
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 1:34 PM CST up reply actions
You are AWESOME!!!!
I was thinking about pro’s and con’s of Lee and WHAM you provide a great list and with perspective!
THANK YOU!
You can only be young once but can be immature forever!
He's been pretty good so far
the injuries are a concern of course, but it could have ended up much worse. He’s still giving them some good results and hasn’t missed too much time.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 10, 2010 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
He has been very good so far
But I don’t think that contract will be good over the next 3 years. Those injury concerns are real and he’s got a lot of time left on that contract. Hard for me to imagine he’s still only 31
You've got to know thats a risk going into any big FA contract
If he can keep up this production for another couple of seasons, a reasonable request for him, then you aren’t looking at that horrible of a contract overall.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
i dont think it is bad...no
i am using era+ as an exmple (not greatest stat ever but easy to get to from this computer)
santana as a met: 143 ERA+ (better than when he was a twin btw)
lee’s ERA+ the last 2 years: 131. lee’s era+ the last 3 years (including his cy young) is 142
roy halladay’s era+ the last 5 years: 150
sabathia’s ERA+ as a yankee: 136
sabathia’s ERA+ over the last 3 years: 142
verlander’s era+ the last 3 years: 115
adam wainwright era+ the last 3 years: 152
king felix the last 3 years: 154
greinke the last 3 years: 133
so yes i think he has been pretty damn good over the life of his current contract.
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 1:49 PM CST up reply actions
dempster is better than meh
he has outperformed both years of that contract thus far
i should have given him more credit, this is true
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 1:49 PM CST up reply actions
Mussina, Randy Johnson?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
active SP
per cot’s
i dont think they have a total (non active) list
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 10, 2010 1:50 PM CST up reply actions
CC didn't make it to the series?
You mean like when he was the MVP of the ALCS? They didn’t make it?
Never mind whether or not that’s relevant, anyway.
Cowherd bashing Dallas/Arlington
You can only be young once but can be immature forever!
Is is wrong to hope he gets ass-raped by a wild boar?
"Scared? We're not scared...We do this every day. Scared is being in a prison yard."- Michael Young
Depends on whether or not video is posted on youtube
"there's no money in triples" - CJ, 3.23.10
Not at all.
"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel
Most untradeable MLB player
To this point most people who would consider Vernon Wells, Ryan Howard, and Barry Zito as the three most untradeable players in major league baseball considering their skills and contract.
With Derek Jeter’s new crazy contract, where do you think he ranks among those three (and feel free to insert anyone else if you see fit)?
Untradeable or least likely to be traded?
Because Jeter will never be traded. Ever.
That may not make him the most untradeable, though.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
And I'm not sure this comparison works on an absolute basis, either.
Every year you get closer to the end of Wells’ contract, he gets more tradeable, if that makes sense.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
It does
And I’m using now as the consideration.
I’ve seen a few places do a ranking of most team friendly contracts and most untradeable contracts. It is fun to read and interesting to consider. They are always considered based on the present consideration of the contract.
more years like 2010
and he’ll become easier to trade too.
by elvis1isking on Dec 10, 2010 2:31 PM CST up reply actions
And in response to this
The exercise is to consider the contract and the players ability against the remaining contract.
Obviously Jeter isn’t going to get traded, that isn’t the point. We say all the time that Michael Young won’t get traded because of the PR hit it would cause. Whether or not that is true, it still doesn’t mean we shouldn’t consider how difficult it would be to trade him.
Jeter doesn't rank anywhere
mainly because he will never be traded just like New York would never let him sign elsewhere.
Also, that contract is hardly that untouchable with it being only a 3 year deal.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
You have to consider the 4th year option when considering the trade
It is a player option and is minimum $8M and could go on up to $17M based on escalators over the next four years.
I am just waiting for the Face bashing to begin,
You can only be young once but can be immature forever!
I add Werth
and put him at the #1 spot,
You can only be young once but can be immature forever!
Zito is 3 tiers above those other fools
Those are all good examples, but Zito would be hard to trade with a palatable contract.
"I don’t know how these SN blog authors get their gigs, but I’m frankly surprised SN tolerates AJM’s lack of effort." Tex34
Hey Arod. You're fucking out. And we're fucking in.
"If we do that," Lee says, "it would be hard to walk away."
by Brian Thomas on Dec 11, 2010 1:20 AM CST up reply actions
I would rather have Cliff Lee than any other pitcher in the game...
and would rather have him before 99% of the positional players out there.
You spend the money, and you get him. I just don’t see that money going to any combination of players that would be of more value than Lee.
Felix? Linecum?
"I don’t know how these SN blog authors get their gigs, but I’m frankly surprised SN tolerates AJM’s lack of effort." Tex34
Hey Arod. You're fucking out. And we're fucking in.
"If we do that," Lee says, "it would be hard to walk away."
by Brian Thomas on Dec 11, 2010 1:24 AM CST up reply actions
Ridiculous, I knew this was going to be the story..
Seems like we will never live that Arod contract down. Because of that this franchise should apparently never give another player over 100million dollars ever ever again.
Some of the same people from that regime Im guessing are still there. They know what they are doing and are probably confident that this club can make profits going forward from yrs of being in the playoffs. Of course nothing is 100% till you play the game but they will be competitive in this division for quite af ew yrs imo if they can keep their core or replenish when they lose someone. Its safe to say for the next 3 yrs or so we will be in the mix.
Th arod thing seems to be such a blanket generalization and not looking at other factors that caused Hicks to go bankrupt. The Rangers know their limit, just because they’re not taking their toys and going home at the mere fact that oooohhh the Yankees are bidding against them doesn’t mean their putting their entire future on Cliff Lee.
x
Kevin_Goldstein
Big League Exec via IM: “The numbers have gotten to a point where Cliff Lee is a bad contract for either the #Rangers or the #Yankees.”
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
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