So who is left in Free agency?
by DJCahill on Dec 14, 2010 4:31 PM CST
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PrintFairly slim Pickins. None of the pitchers do all that much for me. I'm intrigued by Ordonez mostly because of his ability vs. lefties. I also wouldn't mind Lee. It wouldn't surprise me if we just re-signed Guerrero though. Any players I missed? Anyone have any major desire for anyone on the list?
Pitchers
Andy Pettitte (realistically is likely either a Yankee or retiring)
Brandon Webb (Edit: Added some pitchers per Darrel's post)
Jeff Francis
Jeremy Bonderman
Kevin Millwood
Brad Penny
Chris Young
Position Players
3B- Adrian Beltre
DH-Vlad Guerrero
DH/OF-Magglio Ordonez
1B-Adam LaRoche
2B-Orlando Hudson
DH/OF-Johnny Damon
SS - Orlando Cabrera
DH/1B - Derrek Lee
DH/1B - Russell Branyan
IF- Bill Hall
OF - Scott Podsednik
DH-Jim Thome
DH-Andruw Jones
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Pitchers
You left out the bargain bin starting pitchers:
Webb
Francis
Bonderman
Millwood
Penny
Wang
Young
There are actually some of those I wouldn’t mind taking a look at, depending on the price.
Isn't Young close to a deal with the Mets?
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
eww
only person i like is maybe maggs…and Jim Thome of course.
"what I have learned in 11 years in the sports business is that the dumbest guys in the room are always the media guys." - mark cuban
What's left?
Lots of Salvation Army specials.
Maybe DLee has a place here.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
I'm off the Beltre bandwagon.
lets keep the daft pick.
lee is interesting because he can also play the field. Hall for his versitility. Maybe Thome also. Just say no to Vlad.
Yeah,
I had interest in Beltre when I thought we had a 25 or so percent chance at Lee. I have no desire for him anymore. I’m more interested in one and 2 year deals now.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I think that's right
I agree with one and two year deals. At this point, I think I’m also opposed to any significant trades that involve dealing Holland, Perez or Scheppers.
I would try to sign Derrek Lee along with a couple of the bargain pitchers, and see where we are at mid-season again. Maybe something like Webb and Millwood. I know Millwood isn’t viewed highly, but he’s an innings eater, which I think we need if we are looking at guys like Webb, Holland and possibly Feliz as starters, or possibly Scheppers later in the season.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 14, 2010 4:53 PM CST up reply actions
Let's face it
most of those pitchers are kind of like Ben Sheets or Big Dick Harden last year. Kind of a crap shoot if you get anything out of them.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Mostly
I don’t think Millwood is actually much of a crap shoot. He’s a pretty decent bet to give you 175-190 innings, most likely below league average, but not horrible. He’s not a horrible guy to plug into the 5th spot in the rotation.
The others are much more of a crap shoot. I would probably rank them something like Webb, Bonderman, Francis, Wang, Penny. If I went that route, I might try to pair one of them up with a Millwood to give you innings protection if one in that group bombs out.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 14, 2010 5:07 PM CST up reply actions
I think it's safe to say
that Millwood won’t be back on this team. I don’t think he impressed Nolan or Maddux or the Rangers braintrust. There were remarks that I interpreted to mean that Nolan didn’t think much of his competitiveness. Maybe I’m misinterpreting, but unless he comes on a near nothing contract, I don’t see it.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Most of those guys
like Webb or Francis, I’m not sure I’d start them ahead of Holland, Hunter, or even Feldman.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I'd start Francis in front of Feldman
or at least I’d give him first shot at the rotation spot.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Hopefully it won't be a daft pick.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Soriano...
What about taking a shot at trying to make him a starter?
Not sure that he would be worth the risk or the draft pick though.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
He hasn't started since 02 though
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Yeah, Plan B
seems to be replace Guerrero with Guerrero, or maybe some other one or two year bat, and hope something is available at midseason if we are in it, or trade away parts if we are out of it.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
It makes a lot more sense to get somebody who can actually help you in the field, especially at 1B.
What if Moreland goes in a Davisian Nose Dive? At least Lee would have it covered and then we could go look for another bat to DH.
Lee wouldn’t only DH but he could actually play in the field v LHs (allowing another RH bat to come off the bench). Maybe you sign Manny and spot Lee, Manny and Moreland at DH/1B – Moreland plays 1B/DH, Lee does the same and Manny is the predominant DH v LH pitching.
You get 9 games in NL parks (not counting the World Series!) and it’d be nice not to see somebody like Vlad trying to play RF.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
Personally,
I like Ordonez, just because I’d like to see a little more of our lineup against lefties. However, at this stage, the best I could hope for is one of Guerrero/Ordonez/Lee/Manny/ or maybe the ancient Thome.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
We certainly have enough money to sign D. Lee and Ordonez
by Darrell McKown on Dec 14, 2010 5:08 PM CST up reply actions
These are my picks
I think Mags would be great to play the OF once a week or so, to rest others. And Lee could slot in as the DH, and get some starts at 1st.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
If Moreland goes into a Davisian Nose Dive
we all trek to the home of the baseball gods and ask them what we have done as a people to deserve such treatment.
Odds are Moreland just plays like the between replacement and league average player that he is; he’s not as incredibly fundamentally flawed as Davis.
Go Rice Owls!
I think plan B may have been
greinke or Garza but they are too expensive right now. Lets move on the plan C.
At this point, with the way this roster is constructed
you need to empty out the farm for either Greinke (my preference) or Garza.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
Shit!
The MFNYY signed Rivera AND Prior. This offseason is going directly into the shitter. Nolan had better pull JD’s thumbs out of his ass and get something done.
Yep, Prior was the last straw.
That guy was going to be Dynamite for This Thing.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Let us bring Andruw back!
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
I almost want that to just hear Adam whine about how Gentry should be playing instead.
Go Rice Owls!
He's a vet so he's hitting 4th.
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
By the way,
I didn’t list everyone. There are obviously some Hank F. Blalock types. Lots of bargain basement guys are left off.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Flea Market, Salvation Army, or Goodwill types?
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
In the case of Hank F.
the Glue Factory types.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Mortuary?
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
It would be really amusing if LAA signed Vlad and we ended up getting Branyan for DH
Actually, I wouldn’t find it that amusing, and neither would Mr. Winthorpe
Get one of the bats
I don’t really care which one, and stick them at DH half the time and ideally at 1st 1/3 of the time (to allow Josh and Young some DH days).
I don’t care about starters – this team made the playoffs with Wilson, Lewis, Hunter, Holland, Feldman, Harrison, etc; they’ll do it again. I don’t see why sticking Millwood out there is any better than Feldman (and I despise Feldman).
Go Rice Owls!
They may make the playoffs...
with that rotation in this division, but they won’t get any further once they get there. That’s a concern right now.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I think
it’s amazing that after this post season we still don’t get that the playoffs are a crap shoot.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
How so?
The Rangers don’t get past TB without Lee.
I realize anything can happen in the playoffs, but with the way the Rangers rotation is currently structured, it’s far less likely.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
The Rangers
are less likely to win without Lee, 7% less likely to win a series by PhilKid’s calculations against a team against the 2010 Yankees. But to say that the Rangers won’t get any further once they get there is hyperbole.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Agreed. They have a chance, just not one as good as last year.
Does anyone want to make a list of guys who may be available in June or July for the trade deadline? Perhaps if the Rangers don’t sign anyone expensive this offseason, they will have room for a pick up. I’d do it, but I have these two pesky finals tomorrow.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
Millwood vs. Feldman
First one, Millwood is healthy and Feldman most likely won’t be ready to start the season.
Secondly, Millwood has averaged about 190 innings the past 5 seasons. Feldman hasn’t never thrown 190 innings in a season.
Millwood isn’t a good pitcher, but there is some value in a guy you can plug into the bottom of the rotation with a reasonable level of confidence that he won’t burn up the bullpen every time out.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 14, 2010 9:51 PM CST up reply actions
189 and 2/3
jeeze man, round up for crying out loud.
Book: [to Mal] If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.
Hopefully not
for a first tier pitcher like Greinke or Garza with what their teams are asking for. We don’t need the heat pearing.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I don't think
Greinke and Garza belong on the same tier
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Unfortunately from reports
what its gonna cost you is fairly similar, which means Garza isn’t even worth considering.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I'd give up 3 of our top 5 for Greinke, and not look back.
3 picks in the top 40, LA signings with saved Lee money could fill that farm back up. I’d look for advanced college kids with the draft, and youth w/ LA.
Lock up Wilson and Lewis, also w/ saved Lee money, and you have your top 3 spots covered for a minimum of 3 years. Ryan said today on the radio that Ogando and Feliz are gonna get the opportunity to be stretched out to starters. You still have Hunter, Beltre, Feldman, and Harrison to fill that five slot, if just one of Ogando/Feliz takes that step.
Most importantly, you have a TORP v. prospect hopes.
Que sera, sera.
So it has been mentioned that Feliz will try to stretch out to start?
Excellent news.
by lost in space on Dec 14, 2010 7:00 PM CST up reply actions
Well, I imagine
he will get the same chance in ST that he got last year.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
According to Nolan today, pretty straight forward about it.
I expected him to beat around the topic, but the only caveat he had was SP-ready acquisitions.
Que sera, sera.
You could hear a lot of disappointment in Nolan's voice today.
Marked contrast to JD & Chuckie G.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
Josey Wales
sports psychologist
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Heaven help his clients.
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
Of course you
would, but you’re pretty short-sighted as far as baseball decisions go, so that’s not surprising.
Even for a good player, 3 out of the top 5 in a pretty good farm system is an overpay. It was an overpay when the D-Backs did it for Haren, it was when the Braves gave it up for Teixeira, and it will be if we did it for Greinke
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Yeah, that's a lot
for a 2 year rental with a small percentage chance of extension.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
KC wants at least 3 of the 5.
We should only give 2 of the 5. It’s pretty simple, I think. I want this to go away. I really don’t think it’s going to work out.
The hitting could use an upgrade and more flexibility for Wash with the DH, 1B, CF spot would be the main needs, IMO.
The pitching will have to work itself out. We have this young talent in Holland and Feliz and even Ogando that need to step it up and pick up the regression that Colby and CJ will probably have. Hopefully Greinke or someone else will be more readily available at the trade deadline and the Rangers can money whip or prospect whip a team for a mercenary arm again.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
I absolutely agree with this
though I think Thome would be a great DH, despite his lack of flexibility.
Also, I think Matt Mosley should be ran over with a truck filled with rubber studded dildos, so that whenever someone mentions Matt Mosley in any form of conversation, everyone will say “oh yeah, that’s the guy that got killed by the dildo truck.”
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Yeah,
I am so tired of the ongoing Greinke talk, especially folks that think KC is going to do it for less than 3 or 4 of our top 5. They just really have no pressure to jump this year unless someone overpays.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
That is way too much to give up for 2 years
of almost any player, especially since we don’t know how the rest of the AL will shape up.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
I would have been OK with doing it
if we signed Lee. Lee + Greinke makes it worth mortgaging the farm. Greinke by himself, not so much.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Yeah
it’s the same with Beltre.
he made sense if we were going all in with the 3 year or so window that Lee gives us. He doesn’t make much sense by himself.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Yep
you get Lee, and you may as well load up to win now. Without him, no sense mortgaging your future.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Arizona gave up 6 players. They got fantastic production from Haren for 2 years.
They fucked up in getting rid of him for a weak group. Atlanta got Teixeira for a half year.
The Rangers are the defending AL Champs, the situations aren’t as comparable as you flippantly state it.
Que sera, sera.
Teixeira
was the Braves property for 1.5 years. They traded him because they miscalculated their competitive odds and gave up too much for someone who mattered too little, despite his obvious talent.
Same thing with Arizona. They gave up too much because they thought they were an ace away. They weren’t and what was once a great young team is now one that’s in a long-term rebuilding mode.
Same thing with the A’s and Matt Holliday.
When you give up a lot of good prospects even for an impact player, it doesn’t tend to end up well. Especially when the asking price is so high and the amount of time they control the player is so low. TO win, the Rangers need depth, they don’t get depth if you trade away so many players for one. That’s what you propose to do, and like many of your opinions, I believe it’s horribly wrong and an abrupt departure for what the Rangers want to do.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
AZ gave up 2 fantastic players in CarGo and Brett Anderson
2 OF who can’t hit out of a paper sack and two other pitchers who will probably never be anything more than spare bullpen parts.
So that’s 2 of 5 with another 1 player (Cunningham) who would be considered close.
The AZ trade is much more quantity than quality. The Rangers would be giving up much more quality (IMO) by giving up 3 of the 5.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
AZ
also gave up Carter, who while I would like to see bust in epic proportions, I am not willing to write off as a legitimate power threat.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
I agree.
He was a lot of fun to watch when I lived in Midland. He wasn’t the best defender, but he was a power bat, for sure. I am worried about his K rate, but he made up for it with the walks.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
Oh
and the D-Backs gave up 2 spare parts (Seth Smith, Dana Eveland) who were well known spare parts, they gave up an intriguing Aaron Cunningham who didn’t work out, Carlos Gonzalez, Chris Carter and Brett Anderson.
That’s 4 players of note, if you think Cunningham was of note. That’s pretty close to what you’re proposing, I’d say let’s not get bogged down in semantics, but that’s pretty much your specialty.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Semantics
Gonzalez was coming off of 2 seasons of subpar play and had similar questions about how well his tools would translate into skills. Profar is also much well better thought of than Carter.
But you know, little of that matters because the underlying principle is the same – if you give up too much for one player, that’s a stupid move.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
That's why I'm stopping at 3.
If you include Profar and Beltre, then you’re keeping one of Perez/ Holland. And that changes my proposed rotation, for the better.
If they take both pitchers, then you’re keeping one of your top position players. What would you propose for Greinke, or do you not want him?
Que sera, sera.
My proposal
is 2 of the top 5 at most, and one of the top 3.
Greinke is a valuable starter, he might be a tremendous starter.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
I'm worried about him falling off.
I compare him to Johan Santana. Dominating in Minn, and then dropping off when he’s moved to NY. I’m sure he’ll be fine, just not the dominating self.
That’s why I don’t want to rid of 3 of the 5. At least with Johan he sustained a 7 WAR or more for 3 years. Greinke had a nice 9 WAR with a dash of 5ish. If Greinke drops to only a 3-4 WAR guy from here on out, 3 of the 5 is a steal.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
His shit is so nasty, though.
He doesn’t rely on guile or deception, I can’t imagine a dropoff.
Que sera, sera.
His stuff
did dropoff this year. He missed less bats and all of his stuff dropped.
He is better than his 2010, but I don’t think he’s anywhere close to the 2009 version either
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
I'd imagine somewhere in between.
A 6-7 WAR player going forward, with higher potential for huge seasons than poor seasons.
Que sera, sera.
I see no reason to be so optimistic
it’s hard to project any pitcher for 6-7.
More reasonable is 4-7 range, with more likelihood being 5ish than 7ish.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
See, I'd have to disagree.
This cat over at the Hardball Times wrote in this article talks about him compensating for his skills that may already be diminishing.
I could see Zach putting in some 4 WAR’s, but not ever touching 7, let alone the 9’s again.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
Man our opinions
are way too convergent today.
What are your thoughts about the Walking Dead and Boardwalk Empire?
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Gonna bust up this lil party by saying
I have no idea what those things are.
I’m assuming Walking Dead is zombie related (I’m going to get flamed now) but I don’t get the whole zombie fad that’s going on.
I find zero attraction to zombies or zombie apocalyptic themed movies, games, or TV shows.
Commence flaming.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
No it's actually
more reassuring
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
It's going better than are discussion on...
who was it? I think it may have been Moreland? I was against bringing him up, or relying on him for any of last season, if I recall. I lost on that one, it looks like.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
Interesting take.
Notice the first couple comments, though. The author admits the PitchF/X data is screwy.
Que sera, sera.
How bout the fact that
his 2009’s 4.5% HR/FB is 1/2 his career average and that and a huge surge in K% without a corresponding surge in Swinging K% were the only two outliers between his 2008 and 2009? And those numbers returned to career averages in 2010.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Sure, I'm not denying '09 is the outlier.
That was an uber-season, but I still think he can bring something in between ‘09/’10.
Que sera, sera.
which is more likely to be a 5 WAR
than a 7 WAR season. If he has a 3.40ish ERA, would you still be falling over yourself to get him?
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Heh, I don't think I'm falling over myself.
Just discussin’. Anyways, yeah I think so, if he’s also bringing the IPs and a strong K rate. Because I also think he could have some more seasons that come close to ’09.
He’s got that kind of stuff. That’s a risk I’m willing to take.
Que sera, sera.
And even that
is overpaying.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
I think it's worth the risk,
and obviously I’d rather do it that way. I don’t think KC does, though.
Que sera, sera.
Then fuck them
and wait them out. No one else, or at least no one else relevant, will give them what they want.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
The Twins
is the exact opposite of the team you should be afraid of. The Twins will sit on their prospects and maintain their competitiveness and the Twins don’t have a deal we can’t match if we need it.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
I think Royals fans would be furious at Moore too.
If he held out so long that he’d have to settle for a package of, like, Hicks and Gibson + for Greinke. He’d be trading him within the division without getting an elite echelon type guy back. That’s nigh unforgivable.
hicks would be what?
- in your system? gibson #4?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 14, 2010 11:47 PM CST up reply actions
I would put him #2 slightly behind Perez, but those 2 would clearly be the two best obviously.
I’m hardly an expert either.
by LiamP on Dec 15, 2010 10:51 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
All I'm hoping for is a healthy 2011.
If we can have Kins, Hammy, and Cruz healthy for 90% of the season, the Rangers will be looking great.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
Well, I think
you can revisit this in June or July then.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Interested to see what ATL does with their surplus of SP.
Maybe get a guy like Lowe on the cheap becasue of the money owed to him.
Silly rabbit, Trix are for kids.
And Sheffield is a corpse.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
Grrr
#Rangers have not spoken to #Rockies about M. Young since winter meetings. Tough to sign Beltre without trading Young. #Angels #A’s #MLB
Two open questions for discussion:
1. How many more millions per year is Beltre worth over Young?
2. If Young was a FA this offseason, what kind of contract would he get?
I'm not sure
they need to dump MYs contract anymore to get Beltre if they want him. I think the reason they were shopping MY was to make the budget work if they signed Lee.
I’m not sure I would pay the cost in this market for Beltre in terms of years and money. I just don’t think he is worth what he will be asking for.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Concur.
Beltre would be a nice toy for Wash to play with, but the loss of MY in the clubhouse as well as the financial investment in the 3B position just turns me off.
I’ll be darned if I like the Rangers giving Beltre more than 4 years.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
Who gives a shit about clubhouse chemistry?
by TooLegitToQuit on Dec 14, 2010 9:03 PM CST up reply actions
It would probably cost
3 years, 30 million
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I don't recall saying anything about clubhouse chemistry.
Whether you like it or not, Micheal Young has been on this Rangers team for 10 years. He is the undisputed face of the org. (player-wise) and is the leader of the team. Losing him would not torpedo the Rangers, but MLB players are creatures of habit, and not seeing that son of a bitch in the clubhouse would take some getting used to by Kins, Hammy, Cruz, and Frank.
He also is very marketable and can still contribute with his bat. Just dropping him would be akin to the way Lee made us feel when he signed with the Phillies. Just business, but still pretty shitty. And if you notice any of my comments on MY (ask scoop) I am certainly not his biggest fan.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
Young
I wonder how bad he would be at 2B again. If you signed Beltre to play 3B, moved Young back to 2B, and used Kinsler to trade for a starting pitcher, I wonder if the defensive downgrade at 2B would more than offset the upgrade at 3B.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 14, 2010 9:46 PM CST up reply actions
Why would you want to trade a cornerstone of your team to let Michael "I played second base in my 20s and sucked at it then" Young downgrade your offense and defense at once?
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Hold on....
Replacing Kinsler in the lineup with Beltre wouldn’t downgrade the offense it would upgrade it.
Replacing Young with Beltre at 3B would be a significant defensive upgrade there.
While I don’t think Young necessarily “sucked” at 2B when he played it before, he certainly would be a significant downgrade from Kinsler. Whether the downgrade there is that much more than the upgrade at 3B, I’m not sure.
Most importantly, the motivation for make that move would be trade Kinsler for a legitimately good starting pitcher without have to gut our young pitching to do it. If, for example, Kinsler could be part of a deal for some like Francisco Liriano, and you could potentially upgrade your pitching, upgrade your offense and upgrade your defense at 3B, for the price of a defensive downgrade at 2B.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 14, 2010 10:51 PM CST up reply actions
First, you're assuming Kinsler has high trade value at this point. That may or may not be true.
Second, offensively:
Beltre = Young, roughly.
Kinsler going forward is probably > Young.
Defensively:
Beltre >>> Young at third
Kinsler >>> Young at second.
Moving Young not only pisses him off again, but downgrades the team offensively and defensively. There is literally no point to doing it.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Come on.....
You can’t seriously be suggesting that one of the better 2B in AL who is signed for $6 million and $7 million the next two seasons, with an option for 2013 at a minimum buyout, doesn’t have high trade value. That’s ridiculous.
Offensively, leave Young out of the mix. He doesn’t change. Compare Beltre to Kinsler. Beltre was the clearly the better offensive player in 2010 and, while that’s not necessarily the case over their careers, I’m confident Beltre will be the better offensive player going forward outside of Safeco (and particularly if he was playing in RBiA).
Defensively, Beltre has a career UZR/150 of 15.3, while Young’s career UZR/150 at 3B is -7.5. The spread narrowed somewhat in 2010, but it’s still huge (12.7 vs. -5.8). Kinsler is harder to guage, since his defensive metrics at 2B were generally bad his first few years but have been good the last couple. His career UZR/150 is -2.2, but he was a postive 4.1 last year. Regardless, if you the use numbers of say Dan Uggla, who is an acknowledged bad 2B as a proxy for what Young might do back at second, the improvement you get at 3B is still a good bit more than the decline at 2B.
I’m not saying shop Kinsler, but if you want to get a really good starting pitcher without gutting your young pitching, we don’t have many other tradeable assets at this point.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 15, 2010 7:36 AM CST up reply actions
Did I hear you right?
Beltre is better offensively than Kinsler?
You understand last year Kinz was out and hurt for the vast majority of the year.
MY doesn’t change offensively? Here’s some news for you, but people decline with age and MY is going to hit a pretty good wall. He’s going to be a slap hitter soon who will NOT be getting 200 hits a year anymore and have less power than Elvis had last year.
Uggla D does not compare with Young D, even at 2B. You have no idea how MY will do at 2B. But the odds are that changing to the other side of the IF and his lack of range will constitute an abortion over there.
The only thing you have going for you is that Kinsler is injury prone and probably going to stay that way, so it would be good to get rid of him and have someone more reliable at 2B. But that would counter your argument that you’re not selling Kinsler at his highest value.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
Except
You understand last year Kinz was out and hurt for the vast majority of the year.
This is becoming an annual thing. Unfortunately, it’s pretty tough to count on many of our big bats for much more than 100-120 games a year.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Young
He doesn’t change offensively when you replace Kinsler with Beltre in the lineup. He’s the same hitter. He’s going to decline the same regardless of who his teammate is.
Aquaman was comparing Beltre to Young the 3B, and then comparing Young the 2B to Kinsler. There no need to do that . Young is Young. Just compare Beltre to Kinsler.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 15, 2010 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
Looks like he's getting a full time gig with the Dodgers or Astros
“Had some conversations with Houston, but nothing substantial at this point,” is how Hall’s agent termed it to Brian McTaggart of MLB.com. The Dodgers are also in serious discussions for the versatile 30-year-old
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
No idea why anyone would give him a fulltime job
Career .317 wOBA against RHP’s.
Then again, that might be the last insane thing the Dodgers have done all offseason.
I NEVER SAID BATMAN!!!
because the FA pool
is drying up, and the Astros, for instance, have crap in the majors and crap in the minors?
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
You left off Chien Ming Wang
I see the Rangers going after him or Webb pretty soon, since they’re both low-risk, high-upside choices.
by JoeyJoeJoeJr.Shabadoo on Dec 15, 2010 9:16 PM CST reply actions
I thought
his shoulder was still shot. Isn’t he kind of like previous years Sheets?
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
He didn't throw a recorded pitch last season that I could find
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
I'm not a huge fan
of the “sign a guy his first year back after surgery”. Most of them seem to come back and suck for at least one year before they get it together. I didn’t get all the Sheets love last year either.
Honestly, I’d take a run at Sheets this year rather than Wang.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
What kind of surgery did he have?
It always that pitchers bounce back so much better from Tommy John than shoulder surgery. Not that I’m a doctor and I am sure there are examples that say otherwise.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brush her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
Surgery to repair a torn ligament in his right shoulder capsule, July 2009
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
I know he signed
with Wash last year, didn’t pitch for them in games, and was talking about giving them a special deal since he didn’t pitch for them last year. Wash looked at him and said, yeah, thanks, but no thanks.
I think whoever signs Wang gets to pay to watch him rehab.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I wouldn't touch Sheets
since he’s injured every year these days. Guys like that scare me. It is rare for someone to come back from major surgery to succeed, but it can happen. Joaquin Benoit was easily one of the best relievers in baseball last year as he came off of major surgery.
by JoeyJoeJoeJr.Shabadoo on Dec 16, 2010 6:24 PM CST up reply actions
I believe he may be ready early this year.
But I guess we’d need to see a physical on either of those guys before we sign one. I think they’re a bit less of a risk than Sheets or Harden, since they’re both dealing with one major injury instead of a lifetime of injuries.
by JoeyJoeJoeJr.Shabadoo on Dec 16, 2010 6:21 PM CST up reply actions
Supposedly
he is going to the nationals
http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2010/12/16/1880448/chien-ming-wang-returning-to-the-washington-nationals
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Apparently the Lee signing announcement was premeture
Jon Heyman of SI.com reports that the Nationals are “very much in” on Derrek Lee.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
And new news on Vlad...holding out for Mags maybe?
“That’s probably the one thing that is holding us back a little bit is the concept of having a little bit more flexible roster so Wash can move some other guys through that position,” said Daniels. “But I know he feels strongly about Vlad. We all do. But as we weighs the pros and cons of the possibilities, that’s one we’ve got to consider.”
From Durrett.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Hey are you listening to the radio?
Sounds like they intend to give Feliz every chance to make the rotation in the spring. I wonder how that will sit with Ron?
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brush her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
I don't put any stock in the Musers baseball opinions
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Heh...
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brush her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
They are are my least favorite show on the station.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brush her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
They crack me up, I just don't listen to their sports talk
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
I find BaD radio funnier for some reason. Maybe it's having Grubes there.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brush her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
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