Sunday a.m. Rangers things
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 10:01 AM CST
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PrintSo, it looks like that Jim Breen guy was right.
Zack Greinke appears to be heading to the Brewers. Dayton Moore supposedly was pushing for major league ready up the middle guys, and the Brewers were able to give Kansas City Alcides Escobar and Lorenzo Cain. Escobar was the starting shortstop for the Brewers last year, and will no doubt start for the Royals this year. Cain will likely be their starting centerfielder.
Jake Odorizzi, a RHP who the Brewers took #32 overall in 2008 with their compensatory pick for losing C.C. Sabathia, is also supposedly part of the deal. There's some reports that Jeremy Jeffress is part of the trade, and other reports indicate it is a Player to be Named Later.
The Washington Nationals were the other team the Royals were apparently hot and heavy with, although they were on Greinke's no-trade list, and Jon Heyman says that Greinke wouldn't waive his no trade clause to go there.
It is kind of funny to me that Greinke asked for a trade because he was tired of losing, and Kansas City decided they were going to send him to either a team that won 69 games last year, or a team that won 77 games last year.
Looking about the Twittersphere, the reaction seems to be that this is a very good trade for the Brewers, not so good for the Royals. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Rangers had offered a package for Greinke that we, as Rangers fans, think is better than what the Brewers gave up. I also wouldn't be surprised if every demand from the Royals included Elvis Andrus going back to Kansas City as part of the deal.
But the Royals wanted certain types of players for Greinke. Much like when the Royals dealt Carlton Beltran, and insisted on getting a catcher and third baseman in return (with the result being that they ended up with John Buck and Mark Teahen, along with pitcher Mike Wood), Kansas City appears to have put more value on specific positions and players being major league ready.
That being said, the Brewers aren't exactly a lock to be a playoff team in 2011, and I wouldn't be surprised if Greinke ends up back on the market before the end of the 2011 season.
Evan Grant says that the Rangers passing on Cliff Lee, at the price he was asking, will probably turn out to be a good thing, and talks about chain of command issues and Chuck Greenberg's involvement in negotiations.
Richard Durrett says that the Rangers now need to go hard after Matt Garza, and suggests a package of Tanner Scheppers, Julio Borbon, and a couple of guys from Derek Holland, Chris Davis, and Luis Sardinas. A Scheppers/Borbon/Holland/Sardinas package is, I think, way too much to give up for Garza. I'd rather target Ricky Nolasco.
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DFW media
they are not very smart.
"what I have learned in 11 years in the sports business is that the dumbest guys in the room are always the media guys." - mark cuban
I'm making the Brewers the NL Central favorites.
Talented, young (but experienced) core of players with a GM that immediately attacked their specific weakness.
Wow.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
Doug Melvin is a good again huh
Marcum and Greinke.
And using a rather poor farm system to get them.
Time to do the Dougie and start developing a ‘meh’ farm and overrate the players for trades like these…
"what I have learned in 11 years in the sports business is that the dumbest guys in the room are always the media guys." - mark cuban
Until July
If the Brewers aren’t within a few games of the division lead then, Melvin can deal Fielder, Weeks, Marcum, and Greinke, and do an instant farm rebuild.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
Or they could be in the market for another pitcher to add down the stretch...like maybe CJ Wilson.
The Brewers are gonna be within a few games of the lead if not in the lead come the trade deadline.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
by Josey Wales on Dec 19, 2010 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
So...
You are already predicting that the Rangers are going to be out of the race, and trading C.J. Wilson, this July?
Okay.
I don’t think that the 77 win Brewers adding Greinke and Marcum can definitively be said to be within a few games of the lead come the trade deadline.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
I don't know what the Rangers are right now
but if they show up on Opening Day with the current mix, they will have taken a significant step backwards.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
by Josey Wales on Dec 19, 2010 10:36 AM CST up reply actions
Really?
Assuming they re-sign Vlad (which I think is a safe assumption), they are the same team they started 2010 with, except at catcher.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
And they have improved at catcher....
it’s not TT…
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 19, 2010 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
That team went 40-36 in their last 76 games (with Cliff Lee) and was 8th in runs scored plus
none of us know what Vlad is going to be in 2011.
Right now, I see us as barely above .500, maybe 84-85 wins.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
by Josey Wales on Dec 19, 2010 10:44 AM CST up reply actions
Who cares what you see
We’ve proven time and again that your opinions are 99.9% meaningless.
The scouting report on Salty is that he’s a pampered, curly-haired motherfuck who didn’t earn his stripes. He has trouble throwing the ball back to the pitcher, claims to be a switch-hitter and is piss-poor in the clutch.
Have fun!
by oc on Jul 31, 2010 4:17 PM CDT
sweet!!
that means that the Rangers will win at least 90 games.
"JD gets complete blame or credit for what happens in 2010 and I think Nolan wants it that way. JD is paid to be a real GM and needs to start performing like one." - Josey Wales
by Michael Cave on Dec 19, 2010 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
I think the 2010 team exceeded performance expectations
Without a step forward, I think its a step back.
Fair to say that they were in the right place (AL West) at the right time
and happened to catch post-season lightning in a bottle?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
by Josey Wales on Dec 19, 2010 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
It's fair
I don’t agree with it 100%, but its possible. The Rangers have the talent to compete in the AL West, but they aren’t going to brush against the magic two years in a row, especially if they don’t add talent.
They also had a sweet cushy schedule from late May thru
early July where they made hay and then basically coasted home.
It was one of those years where the stars were aligned and then they picked up Lee.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
by Josey Wales on Dec 19, 2010 11:04 AM CST up reply actions
Isn't Abreu their full time DH now?
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
He's okay
But he seems very vulnerable right-handed a la Justin Smoak.
I don’t think he’s really a 4+ win guy.
I NEVER SAID BATMAN!!!
Really?
He seems to have a really low offense upside for a first baseman. His awesome year was a .382 wOBA, which is great, but not exactly an elite player at his position. Not to mention his value is pretty closely tied to his slugging percentage and BABIP, since he has next to zero patience.
Exceeded performance expectations...
…in terms of runs scored or runs allowed?
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
In terms of execution of individual skills
Do you think Hamilton will equal his ’10 performance? Will he ever actualize to that level again? Are you confident that Wilson/Lewis will equal their execution of 2010?
I just think taking the team of 2010 into 2011 and expecting the same results will leave the Rangers looking up at the Angels.
just ran across this in an article ...
Of the 14 World Series teams since the 2003 Marlins, the Rangers have the second-youngest pitching staff and third-youngest group of position players (weighted by playing time, as calculated by baseball-reference.com).
"Nevermind, I am an idiot and I am wrong." - booyakasha
Yes it is.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Oakland concerns me more than the Halos...
but I think you’re right. I think a couple key guys could regress a little and the Rangers need to add someone.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I don't think Hamilton will repeat 2010
I also think Vlad will regress from 2010, and I think Colby and C.J. are candidates to go backwards, although I don’t think they should go backwards much.
On the other hand, I think Ian Kinsler will play more than 103 games (the lowest number he’s had as a major leaguer), even though I don’t think he’ll play 160, either, and I think he’ll hit more than he did last year.
I think you get more production out of CF and 1B than last year.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 11:07 AM CST up reply actions
Specifically why do you think CF will have more production?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
by Josey Wales on Dec 19, 2010 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
Because Borbon's
minor league track record, scouting reports and defensive evaluations suggest he could easily be an average ML centerfielder.
"By MLB.TV, we can see J. Hamilton's homer, M. Young's clutch, and N. Feliz's explosive. All about Rangers things can be our interest"
--South Korean Rangers fan
by Conjunction on Dec 19, 2010 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
He was better than Rajai Davis, among many others
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Because
Either Borbon will hit more than he did last season, or Hamilton will play the majority of the time out there.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 11:13 AM CST up reply actions
And catcher
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Certain players definitely did.
That the team was able to coast for much of September makes me lean towards the idea that they can withstand regression and still be favorites for the division as currently constructed. Likely, it will come down to injuries. Ideally, the Rangers would have added enough talent this offseason to be able to withstand injuries better in 2011.
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
by GhettoBear04 on Dec 19, 2010 11:49 AM CST up reply actions
As usual
Parks is dead on. I think a lot of last year’s performance can be summed up in 6 words.
Weak AL West and NL Central.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Which is exactly what I said with the
“post-season lightning in a bottle” addendum.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
Has it?
Has our regular season team taken that big of a step backwards?
Obviously our postseason team lost a key piece but that guy wasn’t a huge part of getting us to the playoffs. At the trade deadline we can re-assess and go find a postseason pitcher if we deem we need one
Brewers
I think they have a real shot at the NL Central now.
It’s ridiculous to think that the Rangers will be sellers in July, though.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 19, 2010 10:44 AM CST up reply actions
They have a lot of trade bait.
Let’s face it, most of the Rangers farm was built on the trades. I can imagine with Fielder, Greinke and others you could do a helluva job rebuilding a farm.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Agreed.
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
Yep
Great move by Melvin
If the Brewers contend he gets two picks for Fielder in 2012 draft and can still trade greinke next winter for a decent haul.
They falter out of the gate and he can unload both, along with others if he chooses, for a huge haul.
If they do stumble out of the gate and we are still in the hunt I wonder what it would take to get both Fielder and Greinke come June?
Texa$
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
They're not going to struggle that much
to sell off these pieces. Melvin will hold on to them hoping that he can go all in and do something in the playoffs. My guess is though that they’ll end up a close 2nd or 3rd in that division still and while the draft picks from Fielder and eventually Greinke would be nice, its not going to make up for what they gave up in this deal and what they could get from future trades of those guys.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
yeah a team like Milwaukee isn't likely to have both a homegrown ace and two homegrown elite middle of the order mashers all that often
Seems like a pretty good move to do everything possible to supplement Gallardo, Braun, and Fielder while you’ve got them all together. And with Melvin’s contract situation, it makes even more sense.
Um, okay. So they're going to trade one of those mid-season...
…to get some prospects to add a pitcher down the stretch?
Just shows
that even a mediocre GM can make a good trade if he is in the right place at the right time with the right things to trade.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
They finished 14 games out last year
I don’t think Greinke and Marcum improve the team by 14 games.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 10:07 AM CST up reply actions
That's lazy, Adam.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
by Josey Wales on Dec 19, 2010 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
Okay
I still don’t think Milwaukee is the favorites in the NL Central next year.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
Recognizing the off-season is a fluid situation, who do you think is the current NL Central favorite for 2011?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
by Josey Wales on Dec 19, 2010 10:20 AM CST up reply actions
ugh
why do we listen to this? people are so lucky I’m not blessed with a banhammer. I’d use it for the powers of awesome, and sometimes the powers of good.
Section 239, Row 1, Seats 1&2
The Brewers are far from the favorite for the NL Central, but the nice thing Melvin did is put them in the hunt while also
giving him a boat-load of massively valued trade chips at this year’s July deadline.
When he decided he couldn’t get a big return on Prince, he did the right thing and improved his pitching.
He’s quite lucky in the Greinke sweepstakes in that Greinke decided not to go to the Nats, AND Moore just had to have ML-ready middle IFer.
Godspeed Mike Olt.
You arrogant fuck
Who gives a shit what you’re “making” a team. Nobody gives a fuck about your opinion.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Dec 19, 2010 10:42 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
You know...
Saying “I think the Brewers are the favorite to win the NL Central” would lower the douche factor in this post substantially. Not to mention reducing the delusions of grandeur aspect to a respectable level. But then you wouldn’t be you. Think about it.
by Neftali's arm on Dec 19, 2010 11:37 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Cardinals say hello with the great pitching and an improved line up
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
Milwaukee looks like they are building for a massive trade dump
Fielder and Grienke would get a HUGE package to rebuild the farm.
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
Why do people keep assuming that Fielder is going to net a huge return?
He’s not. Especially once we get to the deadline.
I imagine
quite a few teams will be looking to add a bat at the deadline. I remember one time an Atlanta team really thought one more 1B bat would put them over the top …
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Fielder with 2 months left on his contract is quite a bit different than Tex with 14 months.
At the deadline I wouldn’t be surprised if we could get Fielder for Moreland, assuming he doesn’t regress horribly, and a mid-lower level pitcher.
I'd be very surprised
if we could get him for Moreland and a mid-lower level pitcher at the deadline.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Its Melvin
Whittleman will probably headline that deal
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Johnny Boy!
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
This, obviously.
Fielder will be a two-month rental at 6MM (or thereabouts). He’s not going to fetch anything in the same ballpark as Tex.
Nope
And what is this obsession the DFW media seems to have with throwing Holland in every deal? I think he’s got a good chance to be as good as Garza this year.
"Scared? We're not scared...We do this every day. Scared is being in a prison yard."- Michael Young
eh, i don't know if he has a good chance to be as good as Garza,
but, that being said, I wouldn’t be surprised if Holland put up a similar season as Garza
"He recently scored as high as an 8.5 on the Ryin A Scale of Douchebaggery." -Ryan A on the douchebag that is Kevin Millar
by TagDon'tTweet on Dec 19, 2010 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
If you had told me when it looked like the Rangers were doomed
financially last summer that this Winter we’d have sane ownership with lots of money and a still solid farm I’d be thrilled. Really really thrilled. That’s basically where we stand after missing out on Lee and Greinke. So, I’m gonna reset my brain and go with some optimism nutured by the franchise’s near-collapse. Agree, Holland’s a decent hand to play while keeping all your trade chips and financial health chips in front of you.
"Nevermind, I am an idiot and I am wrong." - booyakasha
I think it probably is influenced...
…by what they are hearing from the organization about Holland.
That they wanted to part with him, but not Smoak, Scheppers, or Perez, in the Lee deal, suggests to me that they think he’s got issues he’s going to struggle to overcome.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
Parks' quote on Holland
From his most recent appearance on our show…
Holland has a #3 ceiling; he’s got a lot of work to do to get there. He’s got to refine his fastball command and his secondary pitches. Those are big ifs, obviously. But I don’t see any reason why he can’t do it. He has a late-inning mentality but he can take that to the starting rotation. He likes to attack hitters and I like a guy like that in the rotation. It’s not going to take long for people to realize if he has it or not. Get a good look at him in ST and next season. He’s still pretty young.
That’s a little underwhlming.
"By MLB.TV, we can see J. Hamilton's homer, M. Young's clutch, and N. Feliz's explosive. All about Rangers things can be our interest"
--South Korean Rangers fan
by Conjunction on Dec 19, 2010 10:35 AM CST up reply actions
I think his ceiling can be that of a decent #2 starter.
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
by GhettoBear04 on Dec 19, 2010 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
If you want to talk about his scouting potential
I could see that, but I disagree that its his actual ceiling. Based off his FIP/xFIP, he’s shown already that he’s not too far away from being a mid-rotation guy. As he matures more, that ceiling can go higher than that.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I think he could be a #2
but I’ll defer to the professional scout on this one.
"By MLB.TV, we can see J. Hamilton's homer, M. Young's clutch, and N. Feliz's explosive. All about Rangers things can be our interest"
--South Korean Rangers fan
by Conjunction on Dec 19, 2010 12:05 PM CST up reply actions
I think his stuff could be #2 stuff...
I think it is his intelligence level that is holding him back.
by FormerLSBUser on Dec 19, 2010 12:07 PM CST up reply actions
If it came down to Elvis
then for me it’s an obvious “No”. Profar or Sardinas clearly weren’t close enough for the Royals to seriously consider them. The Rangers just weren’t a fit for the Royals’ demands here.
Moving on… what does this do to the Marlins’ asking price for Johnson?
What if, on July 16th 2011
the Marlins are 42-47 (like they were this season) and the Phillies look as good as everyone thinks they’ll look?
You didn't hear the rumor?
There is talk of trading you to an NL only league while your value is high.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
They just extended him.
I’m pretty sure he’s not going anywhere. Even if they’re interested, it would take a metric shit ton.
"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel
I heard a Joe Sheehan interview the day after Cliff signed
He suggested that the Yankees should take Montero + other stuff and offer it to Tampa for David Price. He thinks Tampa is ready/willing to tear it to the ground by loading up on draft choices and prospects and they won’t be good again before Price leaves via free agency.
What would TEX have to offer for Price?
"Whenever I'm about to do something, I think 'Would an idiot do that?' And if they would, I do not do that thing."
by Hard8 on Dec 19, 2010 10:08 AM CST via mobile reply actions
why in the world would TB trade Price?
by elvis1isking on Dec 19, 2010 10:13 AM CST up reply actions
Sheehan has moron disease.
Remember to retire Fin's number, Mark.
"I've had people walk out on me before, but not when I was being so charming."
by jonthefon on Dec 19, 2010 10:16 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
i like Sheehan
Some think he’s a pompous ass. And he did grow up as a Yankees fan. He is blunt on Twitter, no doubt. But I think he’s insightful. He’s not for everyone, I understand.
"Whenever I'm about to do something, I think 'Would an idiot do that?' And if they would, I do not do that thing."
by Hard8 on Dec 19, 2010 10:20 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Sure, he's not for everyone.
He’s not for everyone who isn’t a Yankees fan.
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
by GhettoBear04 on Dec 19, 2010 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
And to the Yankees of all people,,,
Pls if he’s on the trading block, TB would consider other teams before NY IMO.
x
they won’t be good again before Price leaves via free agency.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 10:16 AM CST up reply actions
So what if we used all of our $$ this offseason
To sign Hamilton/Cruz/Elvis/CJ/ maybe Feliz to long term deals buying out 1-3 years of free agency from each of them. We could bump their pay significantly this season in exchange for cost control down the road. It wouldn’t be flashy but it could help us maintain our core and keep our payroll reasonable in the future. We could bump our payroll up to 90ish through pay raises to these guys and then just wait til the trade deadline to fill any holes that arise during the season?
my better is better than your better.
by rangerjake on Dec 19, 2010 10:09 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Ted's LSB podcast
Enough has happened this off-season re: the big moves that it would be interested to hear you and Jamey think out loud on what the Rangers missed out on and what their goals should leading up to Spring Training.
"Nevermind, I am an idiot and I am wrong." - booyakasha
You missed it
He did a segment on the Ticket yesterday afternoon.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
It really sucks that we don't fit this year with any of the realistic targets out there
VMart and Dunn aren’t great fits and signed too early for us to be serious contenders anyway
Lee wanted to go back to Philly
And the Royals were looking for specific positions in trade for Greinke.
I guess this takes Fielder off the market which was my target after losing out on Lee. I still feel like if we sign Vlad we are, as currently constructed, a team that will be in the race going into June when we can then survey the MLB landscape and make moves from there.
Who knows maybe Milwaukee falls out of contention and both Greinke and Fielder go on the market. Beuhrle may be available. Who knows really. I do wish the FO would throw a bone to the fans by “publicly spending” some money by locking up some of our current players. Even though those guys are already accounted for in the payroll for next year it would show the casual fan our new owners are willing to spend money.
Draft
I’d rather the Rangers spend a shit ton of cash on the draft. Yes, it won’t do anything to dissuade the fans that this offseason is a “failure”, and yes adding high upside prospects won’t help the team this season. However, that would be a smarter expenditure of money than just about any of the remaining free agents.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 19, 2010 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
This.
I’d actually get started now by signing the reaming top LA guys. There are more than a few.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Dec 19, 2010 10:45 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
LA Free Agents
I thought people were saying the LA free agents were rather weak this year?
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 19, 2010 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
Weak in depth and overpriced
But of the price of the few top guys remaining cones down, there are guys worth getting.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Dec 19, 2010 11:33 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Cool
Thanks for clarifying. Is there a website or publication that offers good analysis on LA free agents?
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 19, 2010 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
Piliere keeps up with them, or Baseball America
http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2010/05/17/two-dozen-international-free-agents-worth-knowing/
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
You are very welcome
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Sorry about the spelling, I'm on my phone.
Ben Badler confirmed the other day that Eskarlin Vasquez and Rougned Odor are both available. After this long, their prices should be coming down.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Dec 19, 2010 12:12 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Mabe Prof Parks can give us an update on them
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
damn this sucks but i understand why we didnt get him
time for holland to step up big time….looks like we need to trade for Nolasco hopefully he won’t cost too much.
"Thumbs/Asses Needing to be Dazzled/The Plan/Ferns " - JW
go trade for KC imho
It seems like all the local writers want to throw way too much into any Greinke, Garza or Nolasco deal?
.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
x
JPosnanski Joe Posnanski
Or it’s not Jeffress. See, you learn something new every day. RT @cali_crew: can’t be jeffress. PTBNL can’t be on 40-man roster.
x
ProfessorParks Jason Parks
According to his agent, Jeffress is not in the Greinke trade. Milwaukee weed dealers rejoice.
Jeffress
Deal would have looked better for KC if Jeffress was included.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 19, 2010 10:45 AM CST up reply actions
How can you say that
Without knowing who it is? I don’t really understand why a guy with an obvious drug problem who is one more screw up away from a lifetime ban is considerably better than the next best option.
The scouting report on Salty is that he’s a pampered, curly-haired motherfuck who didn’t earn his stripes. He has trouble throwing the ball back to the pitcher, claims to be a switch-hitter and is piss-poor in the clutch.
Have fun!
by oc on Jul 31, 2010 4:17 PM CDT
Triple Digits
Jeffress hits triple digits out of the pen. His fastball alone will play well in the majors. Imagine if he improves command/control or refines offspeed stuff.
Sure, Jeffress is one screw up away from a ban. Sheppers is one shoulder injury away never throwing a pitch ever again. I’d say the likelihood of a Sheppers injury is greater than Jeffress doing drugs. With Scheppers, it is just a matter of time before he gets injured.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 19, 2010 10:54 AM CST up reply actions
Exactly
So say KC traded with Texas and at first thought it was Scheppers going to KC. Later they find out it’s actually Erlin. Who knows who has the better career given the risks you just mentioned. That’s my point.
The scouting report on Salty is that he’s a pampered, curly-haired motherfuck who didn’t earn his stripes. He has trouble throwing the ball back to the pitcher, claims to be a switch-hitter and is piss-poor in the clutch.
Have fun!
by oc on Jul 31, 2010 4:17 PM CDT
If I understand
If I understand what you are saying, then not including Jeffress could work out better for the Royals because Jeffress’ past substance abuse problems could cut short his baseball career.
Assuming the above is true, I’d rather go with the higher upside players and let the chips fall where they may. The Brewers do not have a deep farm system, so the drop off from Jeffress to the next best pitching prospect would be substantial. Mediocrity will only carry a team so far.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 19, 2010 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
KG sez
@Greg_Schaum All of Jeffress’ drug issues are pot related, and he’s on the 40 man, which means he won’t get tested for marijuana.
That’s incorrect, right?
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Wow.
And wiki lied to me.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Don't you think Lincecum would have been busted for marijuana by now?
One of the perks of making it to the big leagues.
Haha, good point.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Depends on your meaning of the word busted, now, innit?
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
Did you call the hypothetical hardware store and buy a theoretical chain saw?
That's a hilarious deal you get
Just don’t take Aderol or you’ll be out for 40 games.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Adderall is legal
Some players snort it, but it’s legal as long as you get the proper documentation.
The only time I've ever taken adderall...
I spent the next six hours tying ties over and over again and then 36 hours straight studying.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Dec 19, 2010 12:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Never taken it, but I have friends that do all the year.
For a quiz they will it’s ridiculous
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
The last time I did adderall
I went swimming in the East River in the middle of the night.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Dec 19, 2010 10:28 PM CST up reply actions
Agent said no
Other sources now saying Jeffress in deal. Hopefully they inform the player and his agent about his inclusion. One would think they need to know.
Yes/no, yes/no
Puzzling.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
I think that is a big part of it
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Ouch
Went from dreaming of Lee+Greinke to neither?
I’m a white boy who doesn’t think a black man is good enough to manage my baseball team.-Lonestarjon
So, as currently constructed, our rotations is probably
CJ
Lewis
Holland
Hunter
?
The ? is Feliz? Kirkman? Harrison? Feldman when healthy? McClung?
"I’m not in the meetings and not part of the discussions; it’s not my responsibility. . My responsibility is to go out and win tonight. My focus is to win tonight. The club has to look at more than just this year." -Michael Young
Harrison most likely to start the season
When Feldman comes back he most likely gets the nod unless Harrison is just lights outs
I hate that rotation.
Hunter is not a good starting pitcher and as some people know I have never thought Holland would be as good as people predicted.
So yeah, I’m scared.
I'm just goofin' new boot goofin'
Hunter is a good #5
he can log a lot of innings and pitch decent enough to keep your team in the game
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Wonder if Scheppers is a legit option? Use-him-or-lose-him, mentality-wise.
Or maybe he’s a manly bullpen arm facilitating Feliz to the roto?
"Nevermind, I am an idiot and I am wrong." - booyakasha
I don't understand how you can just throw Feliz into the rotation
On what should be a contending team when he struggled as a starter in AAA and his offspeed pitches last year were inconsistent at best and invisible at worst. Kind of the like the whole Holland is amazing thing….I just don’t get it. I
The scouting report on Salty is that he’s a pampered, curly-haired motherfuck who didn’t earn his stripes. He has trouble throwing the ball back to the pitcher, claims to be a switch-hitter and is piss-poor in the clutch.
Have fun!
by oc on Jul 31, 2010 4:17 PM CDT
Feliz had a 2.88 FIP in AAA with a 3.49 ERA
his LOB% was quite low at 66.5% so he had a bit of bad luck even with those numbers. His K/9 was 8.73, HR/9 was 0.23 and BB/9 was 3.49 (a little high). These are all pretty good numbers, especially for a player Feliz’s age in AAA.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
carlton beltran
didn’t he have a cousin who played in west philadelphia, born and raised?
Rangers FTW
by kevzta on Dec 19, 2010 10:28 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I'm starting to think that Carl Pavano
will be our big acquisition this offseason.
Long-term Lurker
by Wemedge on Dec 19, 2010 10:32 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Ditto.
Don’t want Pavano.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
by Josey Wales on Dec 19, 2010 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
He looks like he fucks kids.
"It’s Advil and beef in the Texas Rangers, you yankee bastard."
- Nolan Ryan
This
At this point it may be our only hope to get a potential TORP without getting raped.
The scouting report on Salty is that he’s a pampered, curly-haired motherfuck who didn’t earn his stripes. He has trouble throwing the ball back to the pitcher, claims to be a switch-hitter and is piss-poor in the clutch.
Have fun!
by oc on Jul 31, 2010 4:17 PM CDT
Wife's Dream
My wife had a dream during the WS that we were in the observation room of an OR and Michael Young was having brain surgery because he missed so many balls.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 19, 2010 1:39 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
So underrated.
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
I actually had a dream that Carlos Beltran was having brain surgery just today.
Long distance psychic connection?
I NEVER SAID BATMAN!!!
I would give him a major league deal...
1 year, $2 million base with an extra $2 million in incentives… Split contract, gets $700,000 if he doesnt make the team out of ST.
by FormerLSBUser on Dec 19, 2010 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
So, moneywhip Pettitte on a one year deal
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
Did you call the hypothetical hardware store and buy a theoretical chain saw?
Don't like Pettitte, or don't like moneywhipping him?
I’m just assuming that’s the only way you get him out of NY, and even that’s a dicey proposition. But, if you offer and he doesn’t take it, at least you tweak the Yankees along the way.
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
Did you call the hypothetical hardware store and buy a theoretical chain saw?
Don't like Pettitte if we have to money whip him. I don't think he's worth it.
I'm just goofin' new boot goofin'
Worth what?
A big one year deal? Is he a type A free agent? If he’s not, this comment makes zero sense.
The scouting report on Salty is that he’s a pampered, curly-haired motherfuck who didn’t earn his stripes. He has trouble throwing the ball back to the pitcher, claims to be a switch-hitter and is piss-poor in the clutch.
Have fun!
by oc on Jul 31, 2010 4:17 PM CDT
Him being Type A is probably the one major downside
The other major one being that you’d give a 39 year old an eight figure salary.
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
Did you call the hypothetical hardware store and buy a theoretical chain saw?
.
Andy Pettitte (39) – Type A, not offered arb
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Disregard post above post above
Well, disregard the title, that is.
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
Did you call the hypothetical hardware store and buy a theoretical chain saw?
If he wasn't offered arbitration
I don’t really see the downside of a 1 year deal. Our payroll should be substantially lower this year than what is was expected to be. He has shown he has the ability to still pitch like a # 3, and that would be something that would really be helpful. Plus, maybe he can teach Holland a thing or two about pitching. I have a hard time seeing the risk of giving him a huge 1 year deal.
The scouting report on Salty is that he’s a pampered, curly-haired motherfuck who didn’t earn his stripes. He has trouble throwing the ball back to the pitcher, claims to be a switch-hitter and is piss-poor in the clutch.
Have fun!
by oc on Jul 31, 2010 4:17 PM CDT
Pettitte
He only wants to pitch for New York, and given how much the Yankees need him now, I wouldn’t advise getting into a bidding war with them over Andy Pettitte.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 19, 2010 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
Who said anything about a bidding war?
Call him, give him a number, lay out expectations. If he calls back and says ‘The Yanks are offering more’, say mazel tov. You didn’t improve your team, but you explored a road for doing so, and along the way you made the Yankees dip deeper into their pockets than they wanted to (lulz Yankees limitless budget) and maybe you let them know, for the second time in one offseason, that you’re going to be a serious competitor for talent with them.
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
Did you call the hypothetical hardware store and buy a theoretical chain saw?
You said moneywhip him
Which seems to imply paying him more than the Yanks are willing to pay.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
I see how you could make that term
I always thought of moneywhipping as leading in with a huge, no-room-at-the-ceiling initial offer. Kind of a one-call-close type deal.
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
Did you call the hypothetical hardware store and buy a theoretical chain saw?
I think moneywhip means...
….give him as much money as it takes to get him to sign.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
Which to get Pettitte out of NY or not to retire would probably take 20 mil on a one year deal.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I think it's less than that
He got 11+ last year, so I doubt there’s any chance of him doubling that.
The number in my head was 13+ incentives, or maybe one of those Harden-Vlad second year options to defer cash to ’11.
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
Did you call the hypothetical hardware store and buy a theoretical chain saw?
13+ incentives is what it's going to cost...
to get him to not retire and come back to NY.
I’d bet it would take more than that to leave the Yankees.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
There's no need to defer cash to '11 at this point
I think you’re talking about $15 million for one year to get him to come to Texas.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
Do it.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Yeah, at this point if that's what it took I'd do it...
I just don’t see him leaving NY if he’s going to play another year though.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I don't either, but it's worth a shot
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
he won't come here, but I'd still make a juicy 1 year offer.
I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t make it expensive for the Yanks. And if he happened to accept, he’d really be about perfect in that he could slot in the top 3 of a playoff rotation and wouldn’t require a long term contract or prospects to acquire.
It'd disappointing
both for us and for Royals fans that GMDM put on his horse blinders and so insisted on a partcular package. He likely lost out on a superior deal by trading for need. Odorizzi’s a nice prospect, but everyone else in that package has some pretty limited upside. Escobar put up a .288 OBP. Cain’s very similar to Borbon. (Look at his K, BB and BABIP numbers from last year, then compare them with Borbon’s in 2009).
I’m more than a little pissed. I get the feeling as this news is acknowledged as legit, we’ll find KC fans and media members will be, too.
"By MLB.TV, we can see J. Hamilton's homer, M. Young's clutch, and N. Feliz's explosive. All about Rangers things can be our interest"
--South Korean Rangers fan
From a scout source
Cain is better than Borbon, and Escobar is better than Profar. Fans fall in love with their own talent to the point it blinds them to the realities of the rest of the league. Good deal for Royals.
Escobar and Profar
I didn’t think they were really comparable given the spread in their levels and readiness.
KC clearly wanted someone ready to step in right now. I assume they were asking for Andrus from Texas.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
They aren't comparable, in my opinion
Just passing along the quote. The Royals clearly wanted to add pre-arb major league talent. The Rangers can’t offer that without adding Elvis to the deal, and JD isn’t going to give away that smile for an arm. That’s too risky.
What is the comparable deal?
It’s really hard to determine given we have no one comparable to Escobar, but what about:
Escobar = Profar
Cain = Borbon
Odorizzi = Holland
Jeffress = Scheppers
So, would it be something like Holland, Scheppers, Profar and Borbon?
Escobar and Cain have more value than Profar and Borbon, so we would have to trump the Brewers fourth player in the deal to make it comparable (I’m assuming that player is Jeffress for now), thus I included Scheppers. If the fourth player ends up being a position player, maybe it’s Beltre and not Scheppers.
I don’t think I make that deal if I’m the Rangers. I would probably come closer to deal Andrus and Borbon for Greinke and then trading for JJ Hardy (assuming you traded for him before Baltimore did).
All in all, though, I’m not sure Moore took a worse deal than the Rangers would have given them.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 19, 2010 11:38 AM CST up reply actions
I think you might be overrating Jeffress and Odirizzi
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Dec 19, 2010 12:15 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Odorizzi,
yeah. Probably by a decent bit. But Jeffress=Scheppers isn’t much of a stretch.
"By MLB.TV, we can see J. Hamilton's homer, M. Young's clutch, and N. Feliz's explosive. All about Rangers things can be our interest"
--South Korean Rangers fan
by Conjunction on Dec 19, 2010 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
None of it really matters
The royals reportedly wanted an Ml ready SS,which is something the Rangers just dont have to trade.
Profar is way too far off
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
Really KG...really?
People who really like the trade for #Royals: Me, two front office people I spoke to. Is that the list?
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
I don't think it's as bad as many do for KC...
especially with Jeffress in the deal. I think KC really likes Escobar and Cain.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Jeffress isn't in the deal
This was already stated.
The scouting report on Salty is that he’s a pampered, curly-haired motherfuck who didn’t earn his stripes. He has trouble throwing the ball back to the pitcher, claims to be a switch-hitter and is piss-poor in the clutch.
Have fun!
by oc on Jul 31, 2010 4:17 PM CDT
Its got some potential
but given what Escobar did last season, its tough to get too excited about the deal for KC.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Well this sucks...
not sure what the Rangers could have done here. Reports say that Texas offered what they thought was a serious package for him at the Winter meetings that KC rejected and said wasn’t close.
I suspect AJM is correct in thinking KC demanded Andrus to be part of the deal. To which I say screw that. I just don’t think the Rangers matched up well with KC. The Royals already have a lot of young pitching talent in the minors and were looking for young position players up the middle. They probably don’t think much of Borbon, and if the Rangers wouldn’t deal Andrus that left them nothing to lure KC with. They don’t have a catching prospect right now worth a damn (who would have thought that would be the case 2 years ago), so yeah.
Oh well, go after Nolasco I guess, but at this point I’m not expecting much more than Vlad coming back and someone like Francis or Webb being signed.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
soo beltre is a must now right? or Nolasco at least
"Thumbs/Asses Needing to be Dazzled/The Plan/Ferns " - JW
I don't think I'd pay Belter what he wants. I wouldn't go more than 4/60 for him and I doubt that gets it done. I really want Nolasco though and have since last year.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
well in this market you are gonna have to overpay for talent
but yes we need Nolasco bad……I’d sign Beltre if they can.
"Thumbs/Asses Needing to be Dazzled/The Plan/Ferns " - JW
For me 4/60 is already overpaying for Beltre by about 20 mil.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I don't agree with the logic
That in “this market you have to overpay”. If that’s the case, and the market is full of bad contracts, just stay away and wait for it to settle down next year. Often times, when a bunch of bad contracts are handed out, things tend to settle down the following year. Would be nice to have a bunch of cash to take advantage of that. Don’t spend just b/c everyone’s doing it. That’s dumb.
The scouting report on Salty is that he’s a pampered, curly-haired motherfuck who didn’t earn his stripes. He has trouble throwing the ball back to the pitcher, claims to be a switch-hitter and is piss-poor in the clutch.
Have fun!
by oc on Jul 31, 2010 4:17 PM CDT
I think the logic is
pretty much all impact FA you will end up overpaying in one way or another. Whether it means paying too many years or too much per year. Thats how FA works. These guys play the prime of their careers, generally, being underpaid and then once they hit FA they look to cahs in which means you end up paying a old player far more than they are worth.
If you refuse to overpay you are either going to never sign a impact FA or be stuck going with older players who are only looking for 1 and 2 year deals but given their age they have question marks with them as well
I understand that
But I also think that there’s some offseason’s that are a little crazier than others in terms of ridiculous contracts being handed out. This seems to be one of them. Better off staying away than jumping in just b/c. Especially if the perfect fit isn’t there. I’d hardly say that Beltre is “the perfect fit” for this team given the other issues that it would bring.
The scouting report on Salty is that he’s a pampered, curly-haired motherfuck who didn’t earn his stripes. He has trouble throwing the ball back to the pitcher, claims to be a switch-hitter and is piss-poor in the clutch.
Have fun!
by oc on Jul 31, 2010 4:17 PM CDT
I don't think anybody is a must
Beltre obviously depends on what you are going to do with Young and at the prices being tossed around for him I don’t see it happening and im really not that upset about it
Nolasco would be nice. So would Garza. Garza probably moreso given his durability and this teams construction we could use some durability in the rotation
But I don’t want our FO to panic and feel they must make a move. I believe this team as currently constructed is more than capable of contending in the AL West. We can always re-evaluate as June and July approach and make the moves then that put us over the top
I believe Nolasco > Garza considering cost.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I would have to think Garzas price just came down
And like I said I believe durability is a big asset for this club and if it meant overpaying by a bit then I would highly consider it
i would to....rangers have to bring in a starting pitcher
if they dont, i fear a slow start and then they are chasing the rest of the year
"Thumbs/Asses Needing to be Dazzled/The Plan/Ferns " - JW
I don't think TB...
will lower the price on Garza just because Greinke is gone. In fact they’ll probably maintain what they wanted since he’s viewed as the best guy avaialable right now and he’s not bitching about how he wants to be traded.
I believe I already saw on MLBTR tha TB is saying they’re not looking at dealing any starting pitching right now too. So they’re playing the ’we’re not looking to trade anyone’ card.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Nolasco v. Garza
I’m not convinced that Nolasco isn’t straight-up better than Garza.
His fangraphs WAR is better for each of the last three seasons.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 19, 2010 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, me either...
but I’d give the slight edge to Garza for durabilty and pitching in the AL.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
tRA+'s (which takes into account both park and league factors) for the last 3 years:
Nolasco: 123, 120, 108
Garza: 113, 106, 93
I NEVER SAID BATMAN!!!
Perhaps...
Nolasco is slightly better than Garza.
Either way, I love me some Nolasco. I’ve wanted to see the Rangers try and acquire him since last year and I think TB’s asking price on Garza may be too much right now.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Yeah, my guess is the Royals wanted Andrus and that's why we balked in the winter meetings
Actually, if we could’ve found a reasonable replacement for SS, I would’ve traded 4 years of Elvis for 2 guaranteed years of Grienke. I think 2 years of Grink might very well be roughly equal value to 4 years of Elvis, and you’re more likely to sign Grienke to an extension than you are Elvis.
Of course, the thing is there aren’t really any readily available SS options out there who could’ve replaced enough of Elvis’s production to really make that gamble worth it, so the point is likely moot.
I NEVER SAID BATMAN!!!
KC kicked Betancourt into the deal
Would you have done Andrus for Greinke and Betancourt?
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 11:12 AM CST up reply actions
Another question
Would you have traded Andrus for Greinke, and then traded for JJ Hardy or Jason Bartlett.
I’m not saying I would have, but there were replacement options at SS available, particularly if they really believe that Profar will develop quickly.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 19, 2010 11:14 AM CST up reply actions
If we could've gotten Hardy or Barlett to replace Elvis, yeah I would've probably done that deal.
They of course have since been traded, but I’m assuming you’re talking about a couple weeks ago, before they’d been moved.
I NEVER SAID BATMAN!!!
Yeah, I was running down the candidates in my head too
Not much left.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Yeah
I was assuming it was a couple weeks ago, Moore offerred Greinke for Andrus, and it was before Hardy had been traded to Baltimore.
That’s a really tough call in my mind.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 19, 2010 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
This.
Sadly
"He recently scored as high as an 8.5 on the Ryin A Scale of Douchebaggery." -Ryan A on the douchebag that is Kevin Millar
by TagDon'tTweet on Dec 19, 2010 11:46 AM CST up reply actions
Andrus for Greinke straight up would have been a tough call...
but I’m pretty sure KC was asking for more than just Elvis, which is a slam dunk no way imo.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
He's making me sad
"By MLB.TV, we can see J. Hamilton's homer, M. Young's clutch, and N. Feliz's explosive. All about Rangers things can be our interest"
--South Korean Rangers fan
by Conjunction on Dec 19, 2010 11:29 AM CST up reply actions
Yuni
He’s also still playing in front of Yuni. Stolen from Joe Sheehan:
joe_sheehan From a friend: “How’d you like to be Greinke, traded away only to find out Yuni is still his shortstop?” from web retweeted 10 times
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 19, 2010 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah
This really isn’t that much of an upgrade for Grink in one way – he moves from KC to Milwaukee, an upgrade in teams but not a truly significant one, and still has to play in front of a pretty bad infield defense.
Only real upside is the NL will pad his numbers a bit as he heads towards FA, but I can’t imagine playing in Milwaukee vs. KC is gonna be all that much more fun for him over the next two years in terms of success.
Maybe he just really fucking hated KC though.
I NEVER SAID BATMAN!!!
Part of why Lee was so disappointing
Its not that easy to just trade for Greinke at will, even as it turned out the cost wasn’t that great in pure value.
Now this is looking like a very disappointing offseason, even if the front office made the right decisions (no 7th year, not anything absurd for Greinke) to get there.
I wonder if the Rangers would have overpaid for Dunn or V-Mart had thye known in advance they couldn’t land Lee or Greinke.
Alright, lets hope we get lucky with Webb or Francis. D. Lee?
Check out my webcomic - Fanatics
This...
Now this is looking like a very disappointing offseason, even if the front office made the right decisions (no 7th year, not anything absurd for Greinke) to get there.
Pretty much sums up how I feel right now.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
This is where I am.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Dec 19, 2010 11:53 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Feels like folding on pocket Queens.
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
by GhettoBear04 on Dec 19, 2010 11:53 AM CST up reply actions
But you are out of position, and there is an all-in in front of you. Plus the blinds haven't even called yet.
Smart fold.
"Ooooh....I want some fucking pancakes!" son of willamos2
It hurts
but that is what separates the great players from the good ones. Knowing when to not throw money at bad decisions, especially if you have tons of chips, is hard
Go Rice Owls!
Agreed.
In fact, I’d argue that Daniels has learned this lesson at the table, over the last several years.
I’d worried he might forget he’d learned it, but so far, it seems to have taken fiercely. So much the better for the Rangers…
Seattle's got a King on the mound and Jack in the FO
but the rest of them are queens.
by booyakasha on Dec 19, 2010 4:48 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
hell no am i folding Queens here
Jacks on the other hand…
The Ranger's will win the AL pennant by 2013
I ALWAYS get burned with big pocket pairs.
But I’m sure I’m relying on my eyes and not that stats.
"Ooooh....I want some fucking pancakes!" son of willamos2
This is where I am.
I’d have seriously considered the 7th year, but I certainly understand why they didn’t and can’t bring myself to be really upset about it. Beyond that, I can’t fault the FO for any of their decisions at all.
Which doesn’t make me feel any less gloomy about this year.
by Stormwalker on Dec 19, 2010 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
The only problem with this offseason
is that the Rangers needed to build off their WS run for the sake of PR. But like I’m sure JD and the rest of the front office knows, winning is the only real solution here in DFW to get the fans excited about the team.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Yeah but they can still do that without signing anyone new
Use our financial ability to lock up our current players and that will be enough of a PR move
That could help
But I think the PR moves are going to come from the team winning next year in an upgraded Ballpark. No reason to make moves or signings for the sake of doing so and I’m happy to see that the Rangers aren’t letting a successful season force them away from their usual strategy.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Wait a sec, doesn't this go against what he has said in the past?
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/brewers-chose-greinke-over-prospects
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Agreed on Nolasco
Big, strong, power pitcher with TORP stuff. If that knee has recovered, definitely capable of chewing up big innings. I like going after Nolasco if it’s a possibility.
He's not really a power pitcher
he’s actually very similar to Colby. Fastball sits at 88-93, very, very nice slider which induces Ks. Above-average command, flyball tendencies.
"By MLB.TV, we can see J. Hamilton's homer, M. Young's clutch, and N. Feliz's explosive. All about Rangers things can be our interest"
--South Korean Rangers fan
by Conjunction on Dec 19, 2010 12:07 PM CST up reply actions
I'd be down with having two Colby's over the next two years
thats 2/5 of a really solid rotation.
The Ranger's will win the AL pennant by 2013
SBN's headline in the recent stories box is calling the Grink trade a blockbuster?
I really don’t know about that.
I NEVER SAID BATMAN!!!
Greinke is one year removed from the Cy Young
I would say it’s a blockbuster.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 19, 2010 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
I have a confession...
I never wanted Zach…
I never wanted Cliff at six year $23 per…
I think you guys are forgetting something… That team that last year started the season with a rotation of Scott Feldman, Rich Harden, CJ Wilson, Colby Lewis, and Matt Harrison won the West pretty easily.
The goal is to win the division.
The team, as it is now (assuming Vlad is coming back, which I have no doubt he is) has about an 80% chance of winning the West, as is.
That is the first goal.
JD will adjust the team throughout the year, no doubt. Add a piece here or there.
When its time for the playoffs, I have always believed it comes down to whatever team is on a roll, the “hotter” team.
The Rangers could be that team again. They could not.
But, while the off-season has been disappointing because we haven’t been successful in our pursuits, I haven’t lost any faith in this team. They are still a great collection of talent that is still getting better, and I think they will be very, very good next year.
Another confession: I will say no to Matt Garza (at the assumed price).
And to James Shields.
In fact, there are only two starters I would still look at trading for.
Josh Johnson… Who, have no doubt, will cost more in prospects than Greinke.
Nolasco and Anibal Sanchez are also very interesting to me, at a slightly lower price than Greinke.
You might think I am crazy, but I really like Ricky Romero… Would take a whole lot.
And finally, I have always loved Brett Myers… He is like another Colby Lewis in my mind, a solid 3-4 who has games where he looks like a avg. 2…
Not panic time yet people… It isn’t panic time until June at the earliest…
by FormerLSBUser on Dec 19, 2010 12:04 PM CST reply actions
Yes
I am happy.
My nightmare scenarios for this offseason consisted of giving Lee some nonsense 7 year deal, trading Holland + Perez (or even something more insane like Feliz or Elvis) for Greinke, and/or signing Beltre to something like a 5 year, $75+ deal.
2 down, and the 3rd looks incredibly less likely.
This is a playoff team as is. Another piece would make it a stronger playoff team, which is important. But this club is not in a position for desperation moves.
Go Rice Owls!
You think over the life of his contract he is a #2?
by FormerLSBUser on Dec 19, 2010 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
4.4 WAR
Same as CJ.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Dang
What was CJ by tRA?
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
It's mostly on the 16% LD and 12.7% popups
I don’t believe either are going to be sustainable.
Where do you get tRa WAR?
I thought first inning had it…
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
It's no time to panic, but the current rotation is probably only the third best in the AL west right now
The top two are good, but there is not much certainly after them. The other issue is that although Oakland’s lineup doesn’t look that intimidating, they don’t have many black holes and are all average-above average hitters. Plus, all except one position player plays above average defense, so their rotation should again churn out better numbers than their FIPs. It’s closer than we may think. I will do a post on this later.
I dont get
that because we won the west “easily” last year, mostly in part due to the weakest interleague schedule in the history of MLB, that will be the same case this year. I really dont see that being the case.
This is a pretty obvious example of targetting
Exactly what the Royals shouldn’t be doing. Building a great team from the minors isn’t as easy as filling each individual gap, because there is no guarantee each player makes it at his specified position or even pans out anywhere. You collect the best talent you can find, period.
This trade didn’t do that for the Royals unless Escobar and Cain are much better than anyone believes at this point.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Dec 19, 2010 12:06 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I think if any team is in a position to target
it is KC. Who has about thirty stud left handed pitchers. They need position depth. I don’t think they’re wrong for doing so. I don’t think they’re “right” for doing so either, but you can’t blame them for not valuing a deal centered around a Holland or Perez (or even other pitching)
Go Rice Owls!
Well the rumors out there were saying
that the Royals wanted 2 Grienke level players in return, which made it sound like they were looking for 2 pitchers with TORP ceilings.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Wasn't that before he requested a trade though?
Which took a lot of KCs leverage away. Once they lost that targetting specific areas to solidify sounds like a decent plan
I can see the argument
The bird in hand scenario. Cain and Escobar are closer to whatever it is they will be than Beltre and Profar.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Dec 19, 2010 12:18 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I don't know
The more I think it over the more it makes sense for them. They have a cavalry of young guys on the cusp of the majors. The players they are trading for are not impact players and neither would the ones they got from us (considering it would be Borbon and Profar). The two they got they can plug in right now and they are pretty much set at those two spots for at least the next 5 years and won’t have to worry about those while all their others come up. It will allow them to have financial room to go out and sign a impact player that does fit them really well once the time comes that thats what will put them over the top.
This season has 84-78 written all over it.
Fuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkk.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 12:09 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
So you feel good about Tommy Hunter as a #3?
And our opening day starter being a guy who’s pitched one whole season as a starter. Yikes.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 12:19 PM CST up reply actions
Why not?
Last season, our rotation out of ST included the worst starter in baseball and a #5 starter in the top 2 spots.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Yes, on this morning it does have 84-78 written all over it.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
I was thinking Horned Frog was sounding alot like JW!
So this is as much a reply to the TCU kid and his tendancey to panic.
You’re overreacting! The Rangers will improve on their win numbers this year because they have experienced pressure situations in the playoffs that will help them out in close games on the road in particular. I think 98 wins is a reasonable goal.
The other thing is at one time Cliff Lee reportedly told Kinsler a sixth year would get him here, but then it became a seventh, and he took a five year guaranteed contract with Philly. The Rangers were right not to go beyound a sixth year. Greinke has had one great year, two fairly good years, and an average year in the last four. So we missed him, no big deal in my opinon.
When it boils down to it, considering the number of games Lee won in the season for the Rangers, and considering the potential of improvement in a young pitching staff, I am looking for improvement this year.
Well
I think it’s still too early to start predicting win totals for the team in 2011. I will say that people need to realize that Hamilton and Cruz (when he was healthy) were two of the five best hitters in the AL last year (and Hamilton’s year, in particular, is almost certainly non-repeatable). Ceej pitched like a TORP. Lewis pitched like a TORP. David Murphy had a six-week stretch where he was one of the best COFs in baseball. A LOT of things went right for this team last year.
At the same time, Harden and Feldman were complete non-factors. Vlad tanked in the second half. Josh, Ian, and Nellie all missed significant time sitting on the DL.
The problem, as I see it, is that I think it’s more likely that our best players regress than that our question marks (e.g., Holland and, to a lesser extent, Hunter) take that next step to giving the team meaningful contributions next year. I picked last year’s team to win 85 games before the start of the season. And I guess that’s about where I am with this year’s team. For now.
We didn't win a single game
outside of the 90 something we won…
"Calmer than you are dude"
I’m only slightly smarter than a sea sponge
by brettgardner on Sep 10, 2010 12:03 PM PDT
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 19, 2010 2:43 PM CST up reply actions
Seriously, why the fuck are we overvaluing Profar?
Potential red flags: Age and experience level; has solid-average to plus projections across the board, but lacks elite upside; some scouts question his bat, suggesting he will struggle against full-season pitching; doesn’t have much physical projection; lacks high-end speed.
And his potential impact?
First division starter in the middle of the infield. I’m pretty sure we’ve got that covered for awhile. This fucking sucks.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
I dont think we are overvaluing him
But he didn’t fit with what KC wanted. If this happened at this point next year Profar may be close enough to pull off but right now with only half a year in short season he couldn’t fit what KC wanted
Yep.
A teenager with the potential to be a first division starter in the middle infield. Sure is a sorry prospect.
You’re a beating.
I'm not saying he's a sorry prospect. But we've got a beast at SS right now,
and a 29 year old who’s been awesome in his time here at 2B.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
I'm saying he's not probably going to play here at Texas, no?
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
Wait.
How old will Kinsler be when Profar is 22. What will his contract situation be?
We’ll handle the relevancy of your question after that. You’re doing the thing that makes you hated again: being unreasonable in the face of adversity.
I'm not being unreasonable. When scouts are saying
that without adding pieces, the Rangers take a step back, that worries me.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
Show me these "scouts."
And tell me why you’re using scouts for MLB projection, instead of prospecting.
"Scouts"
Look at more than just prospects. Every org in baseball has talent evaluators (read: scouts) at every level of organized baseball.
I should say "first."
I’m not trying to devalue scouting. I’ll just take CHONE over KG (though CHONE won’t exist anymore) for things at the MLB level.
I'd take CHONE over KG as well
But I’d take internal scouting over projection systems, but that all depends on who is doing the scouting.
I don't get how the Rangers have taken a step back
Yes, there is some regression to be expected from their top rotation members. But at the same time, this is some of our 2010 production:
Catcher – .212/.288/.317 74 sOPS+ (OPS+ compared to the team’s catchers around the league)
First Base – .214/.310/.345 65 sOPS+
Second Base – .279/.355/.388 107 sOPS+
Shortstop – .264/.339/.299 89 sOPS+
Center Field – .283/.322/.369 90 sOPS+
I have a hard time seeing that type of prouction from those positions again. Elvis will improve on a .301 SLG, Kinsler is going to play more 103 games and likely won’t hit for no power for most of the season, Moreland might not be great but should easily top a .655 OPS, and Torrealba has never had a season as bad the Rangers catchers were in 2010. CF is still a bit of a question mark, but at the same time, Borbon isn’t going to get the same opportunity he got in 2010 if he struggles that much.
And the Rangers also got 233 IP from Harden/Feldman (over 40 starts and 9 bullpen outings) that resulted in a 5.52 ERA.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
If taking a step back means
90 wins is not gonna cut it in 2011, then I would concur. The Angels will be better next year.
Why will they be better next year?
What have they done to improve over their 2010 team? They’re a truly old team that just got older. They have a great rotation, but its not like they’re a bunch that has proven they can lead a team with a mediocre offense and bullpen to the playoffs.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Angels seem impossible to get a good read on.
Figuring out what the hell happened to Haren last year would be a good start.
Potential for plus across the board...
Who would want that?
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Dec 19, 2010 12:21 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
who said that?
"what I have learned in 11 years in the sports business is that the dumbest guys in the room are always the media guys." - mark cuban
The professor.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
First-division starters in the middle of an infield
They don’t grow on tress. Profar is a very good prospect.
I understand that. But you consider Elvis to have elite potential, right?
And Kinsler has shown to be an elite player when healthy. He had better stats than Pedroia before getting hurt in 2008.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
These points have what to do with what, exactly?
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
I like how you used Parks's opinion to support your thesis.
And then he disagreed with you.
Also, you know baseball players get older, right?
He disagreed about Profar. I said it's stupid to hold on to him just to hold on to him.
And it’s not just Parks. It’s scouts like KG or Keith Law that have expressed concerns about the Rangers in 2011.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 12:31 PM CST up reply actions
Heh
Logix!
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Did the Rangers even make an offer to Greinke?
If so, we haven’t heard it.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 12:33 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, they've been making offers for him for years.
And decided in the last few days they just don’t like him anymore.
Ones that were laughed at. Then all the sudden, Greinke gets sold for 50 cents on the dollar.
Why?
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 12:35 PM CST up reply actions
Apparently
KC decided that because Greinke demanded a trade they had to give into them, and instead of getting a deep basket of prospects, they couldn’t imagine a trade without a ML ready SS and OF.
Unless we were ready to trade Elvis and Borbon (which I probably would have), we didn’t have what they wanted. It was stupid requirements by KC, but there it is.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I wouldn't give up Elvis.
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
I would have also had to get prospects back
and probably would have asked for Hosmer, but I think under the right deal, I could put Elvis and Borbon in a deal.
Then again, my belief is we only have Elvis for 4 more years anyway, and Borbon is a fairly replaceable guy.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I claim
with Dayton Moore, and the Royals having Billy Butler, and Dayton’s wierd fixation on positions, anything is possible. Even if I didn’t get him, and I probably don’t, I believe they have enough interesting prospects where a deal is conceivable.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Only have Elvis for 4 more years...
that’s kinda a long time.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
2 years for Greinke
isn’t nothing either.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Absolutely not...
as I said before I’d seriously consider Greinke for Andrus straight up, but I doubt KC does that or that was on the table. I’ll bet they wanted Andrus, Borbon, and another piece. And for me that’s too much.
Now as you said above I’d insist on someone like Hosmer coming back in that deal, but I doubt KC would include him. It’s really all specualtion at this point unless the details of the Rangers offer or KC’s demands come out.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I think, what you have to ask
and you are right, it is all speculation, is what other prospects could you get back in that deal. I think given the depth and strength of KCs farm, you probably could have squeezed something out of them.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I doubt KC is looking to deal prospects right now though.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
If you can figure out what KC is doing
you are a better man than me. I have no idea why a ML ready SS and CF were such dealbreakers.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
The Process
I would guess that the Process has KC fielding a team almost entirely from the farm. It could look something like:
1B – Hosmer
DH – Butler
2B – Colon
SS – Escobar
3B – Moustakas
CF – Cain
C – Myers
SP – Lamb, Montgomery, Duffy, Crow, et al.
RP – Collins, Soria, plus other prospects
Doing so will keep the payroll to a minimum, allowing the Royals to market value to fill the COF positions or any other position that doesn’t pan out. Again, this is just a guess.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 19, 2010 2:24 PM CST up reply actions
No
But, like Law mentioned, the Royals got a decent but not great package for Greinke because they filled SS and CF with cost controlled players. The thing is their farm system was so stacked with impact prospects before the Greinke trade, that Crain and Escobar can never reach their potential and the Royals won’t skip a beat.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 19, 2010 2:29 PM CST up reply actions
Moore took a risk, for sure,
by doing what he did, especially given the Beltran fiasco. And I can see Law’s point of view. In fact, I’m even inclined to agree, especially in terms of the Royals’ rush to complete the deal.
But they’ve still got a bright shiny future, unless Moore really screws things up. Which, incidentally, I wouldn’t necessarily bet against.
I would guess they're trying to deal for positions of need...
rather than the best possible players they can get in return.
Which (just like doing the the same thing in the draft) can get you in trouble.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Did the Royals ask for Profar?
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
And probably won't
But given whats been reported about what they did get and what they turned down from Washington its very safe to assume they targeted a ML ready SS which isn’t what Profar is. You can’t simply push the force trade button and make them do what you want to do. If we don’t have what they wanted we aren’t going to get him
They did during the Winter Meetings.
It has been widely reported, though we don’t know what it was.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Dec 19, 2010 12:35 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Neither of those guys are scouts
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Elvis will never have elite offensive skills
Well above-average defensive skills with potential on offense, but lacks elite offensive tools. Still like him long-term. Not many truly elite players in baseball.
The real problem with Elvis
is you only keep him past his 6 years if he doesn’t develop to an elite or impact level. If he does, he gets shopped around and replaces Jeter (or goes to the Sox or wherever).
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Mention 4 years again, please!
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Wait, I thought we were talking about Profar, I got lost.
I think this would have to depend on the definition of “elite,” which is a semantic argument. I know Matches uses the term when he talks about five win players, and I find it hard to believe Elvis doesn’t have the opportunity to be there over the course of his prime. Again, though, that’s semantics.
Setting aside WAR for a moment,
and just setting Andrus against the other young shortstops in MLB — do you seem him as “elite,” relatively and qualitatively?
At this point? No.
Potential? I’d be surprised if that wasn’t possible.
I think I might be getting confused in this conversation.
I meant in terms of potential, sorry.
He’s obviously not elite now.
What about Andrus sells you on his potential as an elite shortstop? Is it predicated on the 5-WAR cutoff, or do you have different criteria?
I could be misreading your first statement, though; “surprised if that wasn’t possible” may be much less enthusiastic than I’d first thought you were.
It's predicated roughly on being one of the best at his position and better than simply All-Star level.
A five win player is just a simple way of putting that in to representation, but when he’s already an average or better player in his early 20s, I can at least picture him getting there by the time he’s ~27.
I don't think its crazy to see the defensive potential
and expect him to continue refining that talent. And then you look at what he was able to do at the beginning of the year and in the playoffs at his age, and I’m right there with you that going to be elite.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Andrus was terrific in the ALCS,
but I find it interesting that folks who would ordinarily be somewhat skeptical of base-running value, and would take post-season numbers with a grain of salt, are so exuberant about his overall performance in the post-season.
Honestly
Bengie Molina was a complete stud in the ALCS and ALDS, and so was Treanor for that matter. Moreland was a monster in the WS.
It’s funny to me that some players post season numbers seem to be important, and others are viewed in their proper context.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Speaking of which,
I think Andrus’ postseason will only reinforce Washington’s belief that Elvis is a leadoff hitter.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 19, 2010 1:43 PM CST up reply actions
He is definitely a player
that needs to step up significantly both offensively and defensively just so this team is able to maintain their position.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I have a lot more faith in Tiny E taking
a step forward offensively than I do with Judy Borbon.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
I don't think its proof that he's going to do that next year
But given the slump he went through for most of the summer/fall months, it was very encouraging to see the player we were so excited about in April and May. I have to admit, though, that seeing him mind fuck pitchers on the base paths as a 22 year old in his first playoffs trip plays into some of my optimism about him for the future.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
It was fun to watch, for sure.
It’s value, especially in terms of a player becoming elite, seems rather small, relatively speaking.
Its just another bit of evidence for me
I think he’s got all the talent to be one of the top SSs in baseball. The power will likely never be great, but outside of that, he’s got the potential to do everything you would want from a shortstop.
Watching him play like a 10 year veteran in the playoffs just makes me believe even more that he’s got all the mental tools needed to take advantage of his talent.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
How would you describe some of the things he did in the postseason?
He ran the basepaths near perfectly and was clearly getting into the pitcher’s heads with his speed. How many 22 year olds in their first playoffs trip are able to do something like that?
I know, intangibles and all that are worth only so much, but at a certain point, you have to also acknowledge that there aren’t many players at his age who are able to do the things he does. There is a reason the Rangers front office is so high on him and have talked him up over the years. And part of that reason is how he’s able to handle himself on the field with players much older and more experienced than he is.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I'm not saying that's not valuable.
Clearly, it is.
But the “ten-year veteran” line does nothing for me, especially when it describes a grand total of 16 games and 75 plate appearances, and especially when that becomes the basis for projecting a player as “elite.”
Also, there simply aren't many players
Andrus’ age playing the major-league baseball.
He’s remarkable for having broken in so young. That reflects a lot of what you’re talking about.
But at some point, you have to look at the performance, and the way it’s accomplished, and so far as I can tell, Andrus has shown little sign that he’s ever going to hit for much power.
Unless he comes a long way on that mark, he’s very unlikely to be able to draw walks at the clip he started to in 2010. That seems to have been borne out by what happened in the second half of the season.
And that’s going to make it very hard for him to be anything other than very good throughout his career.
At this point though, I'm not sure how much we disagree on Elvis or how much we disagree on the terms to describe Elvis.
Last season, Elvis had the 5th best OBP in baseball for SSs. It was the highest for qualified AL shortstops. What killed his overall value was his complete lack of power and his baserunning mistakes.
I don’t think we’re going to see Elvis hitting 15-20 HRs a year, but at the same time, I don’t think Elvis is going to hit for a SLG much less than his rookie season’s. And I doubt pitchers were ever scared of Elvis hitting for power, so I’m not really buying that the lack of power will hurt his walks. If it does, he’s got the contact skills to still get on first if they are challenging him in the zone.
Also, what his minor league track record, his rookie season, and yes, his postseason performance show us is that he can do better and should be expected to do better.
When you look at his performance in context, considering his age, his make-up, the great reports we’ve heard about him since the minors from the people that know him the best, I’m confident in betting on him to work on these weaknesses and be one of the top SSs in baseball.
And I’ll take it one step further, with Hanley’s defense, I think Elvis is going to be pretty close to him in WAR.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Ok, first, on Ramirez: wow.
Ramirez has already posted WAR of 7.4 and 7.1 at ages 25 and 26. You seriously expect Andrus to be pretty close to those numbers, ever? Wow.
Second, on the walks: folks, including me, were very excited by the walk rate Andrus had through the first part of last year. It wasn’t sustainable, though, and it’s never going to even approach that range again unless Andrus shows more power. Pitchers adjusted, and he didn’t, and his total walk rate last year was very heavily influenced by what he did in the first couple months of the season.
If he can’t muster more consistency, his OBP will suffer.
I don't think Hanley's a guarantee to be a 7 WAR player anymore
Those years were in years when he wasn’t costing the team a win or 2 on defense. Given his other seasons and his less than stellar attitude, I think its more likely for him to be worth a negative win or two on defense. I’d say Hanley is more likely to be a 5 WAR player than the 7 WAR player.
His walk rate at the beginning of the season was ridiculously awesome, but his season ending walk rate is far from unsustainable. A 9.5% BB rate isn’t ridiculous and something that Elvis could do.
Are you actually going on the assumption that Elvis is going to continue having a .036 ISO? I don’t see why Elvis should be expected to have an ISO/SLG that low from here on out. Given his age and his slump he went through last season, he ended up having little to no power. That’s not going to happen next year.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Almost every player is more likely
to be a 5 WAR player than a 7 WAR player. Pujols is possibly the only player currently in the game for whom that’s not the case. And there’s no such thing as a guarantee of being a 7 WAR player. Too much randomness in this game for anything else to be the case.
No, Andrus probably won’t have another season with a 0.036 ISO. I’d bet it stabilizes in the 0.075 – 0.100 range, and I’d bet on the lower range of that for next year.
Fangraphs has him up for an 86 wRC+ next season, and I’d take it to 90.
Are you looking at his career total?
That has him at 86 for his career wRC+. The fans have him at a 97 wRC+ and I think he’s going to do something in that range if not better (I’m more optimistic on the BA/SLG). With his defense, I’d say that he’s going to be a 3.5-3.8 WAR player.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Whoops.
Yes. Thanks for pointing that out. I wondered why it was so low.
I think the fans are over-projecting his OBP, so I’d take it down a couple notches, but 95 wRC+ wouldn’t surprise me, either.
I’d go 3.0-3.5 WAR, which obviously isn’t bad at all.
That's in Elvis' 3rd year
when he will be 22 for most of the season. In the AL, only 2 SSs put up a WAR over 2.5 in 2010 and that was Alexei Ramirez and Pennington at 3.8 and 3.7. The NL had a few more, but being a 3 WAR SS (according to FG’s WAR) puts Elvis in top 6 last year and I wouldn’t expect that to change much this year.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Me neither.
Again, I think Elvis has been a good shortstop, and I’d bet he will continue to develop, and be a very good shortstop for quite a while.
The category of elite is obviously subjective and flexible, but we’d started putting some frame on it, and I’m surprised by how highly some folks project Andrus.
Well I think if you can realistically
project a 22 year old to be one of the top SSs in the league, then calling him an elite SS isn’t really being too high on him.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Top six?
And we’re talking relative to a group that’s historically somewhat weak, right?
I mean, no one’s calling Pennington or Ramirez elite, are they?
Depends
If you think Pennington and Ramirez are going to be one of the top SSs for the next few years at least, then you could say they were elite.
As it is right now, I think they are both more along the lines of a 1 year thing whereas I think Elvis is going to consistently be one of the top SSs in the league year in and year out.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
So your definition of elite
is entirely relative.
In other words, any player could be elite, if the rest of the players who play his position all really sucked over his peak years.
I like this, by the way.
I’d meant to post that earlier, but I’m using Firefox 4 Beta, and, well, it’s not especially stable. I think I’m going to have to go back to 3.
I don't see why it shouldn't be
Everything in baseball is relative. As it is, SS has almost never been about offense except for a few years with guys like A-Rod, Tejada, Nomar, Jeter, etc.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
The elite shorstops?
What about guys like Wagner? Or Larkin? Or Vaughan? Or Boudreau? Or Yount? Or Ripken?
It's always relative.
You’re just using a different reference point.
by brettgardner on Dec 19, 2010 5:08 PM CST up reply actions
The 5-WAR reference point
mentioned earlier is an attempt to get beyond the relativity.
It’s not so obvious as all that.
It attempts to set a standard definition
that would be applicable over baseball history.
I suppose you could argue that’s subjective, but it’s an attempt to set a standard that’s not relative over time.
But you don't know how good it is unless you look elsewhere.
And so whether you’re using the baseline of all players at the position all time, or players in the same generation, it’s still relative.
by brettgardner on Dec 19, 2010 5:19 PM CST up reply actions
Relative to a defined standard
that holds over the entirety of baseball history.
If that’s all we mean here by relativity, fine, but that’s not how I’m reading Gdwag’s comments, which seem to object to the idea that the standard would mean that there were no elite players at a certain point in time.
That is my objection
If most baseball teams want to field a team with an all-glove, weak bat SS, then I don’t think that you can say that there aren’t any elite SSs. Its just that baseball valued something different during that time period. That’s why its need to be relative to the league and position rather than just looking at a baseline number.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Again,
if you show me a period in modern baseball history in which there were no shortstops who were in that 5-7 WAR range consistently over their peak years, then I’d have to think more about this.
But my random exploration so far hasn’t turned up that pattern.
And I don't agree with him
But my point is X WAR only tells you so much without reference to how others have done.
Right? I mean, in a vacuum, how do I know whether 1 WAR or 27 WAR is the normal range for elite?
by brettgardner on Dec 19, 2010 5:29 PM CST up reply actions
You can't judge anything in a vacuum.
Based on that reasoning, isn’t any measurement of anything relative?
Nothing, per se.
It’s just not how most of the debates over “relativism” I’ve had have gone.
Most of the time, the argument is similar to the one Gdawg’s making: you can’t just one standard; you need to approach the “truth” from a number of perspectives, quantification is too reductionist, and so forth.
You’re making quite a different argument, apparently, but it seems to boil down mostly to semantics.
I don't think I'm really stretching the definition of "relative" here.
How did you 5 WAR was good?
by brettgardner on Dec 19, 2010 5:34 PM CST up reply actions
It was from an earlier comment;
I think Robbie attributed it to Matches, but that’s sort of beside the point.
If your point is that the attempt to come up with a standard definition is subjective, well, sure. But that’s different than the argument about the definition being relative, isn’t it?
My point is fairly elementary here.
I think when you’re talking descriptively, the definition in the first instance is relative.
In other words, if you’re talking with someone who doesn’t know about WAR, you’d have to tell them that, based on the data we have from players over the history of baseball, 5 is really good before they’d be too impressed by 7.
by brettgardner on Dec 19, 2010 5:43 PM CST up reply actions
I suppose.
Depends on what you’re talking about.
by brettgardner on Dec 19, 2010 5:52 PM CST up reply actions
I don't understand what you're asking.
I’m not saying that the method of evaluating WAR is relative, I’m saying that describing differences in those evaluations is.
So if you’re asking me if you need context to answer whether a certain temperature is hot or cold, then yes.
by brettgardner on Dec 19, 2010 5:57 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not sure what this means:
“I’m not saying that the method of evaluating WAR is relative, I’m saying that describing differences in those evaluations is.”
Again, if what you’re arguing that it’s subjective to define x as “elite” iff x≥5 WAR for a given number of seasons, then I’d agree.
But I’d also argue that once a person has accepted that 5-WAR standard, then “elite” is no more relative than saying that water boils at 100 degrees on a certain scale.
In retrospect, maybe the CES-D scale for clinical depression would’ve been a better example than temperature.
CES-D is a hard class to pass.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Whatever your standard definition is though
it needs to be adjusted to the league and the position. Different positions have different purposes over baseball history. Similar to SS, you wouldn’t look at a catcher or a CF and judge them the same as a LF or 1B.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
And, after all,
we are just discussing elite shortstops, here.
Nobody ever argued that standards shouldn’t hinge on position, I don’t think.
Not by enough
If you’re talking about setting a baseline to be used for each position. If you’re going by the 5 WAR standard, then there might be one elite SS for the next 5 years, if Hanley doesn’t get his offense back up to make up for the defense. That also means that the AL might not have an elite SS for a long time.
Again, that just doesn’t make sense to me as you are ignoring the strength of the position across the leagues as well as the strength of the position in general.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Has there been a period
in which there has been no shortstop who consistently posted a 5+ WAR?
Or, for that matter, does this hold true for any other position?
I honestly don’t know — it’d be an interesting question. I’d assume not, because of how WAR’s constructed.
I doubt it.
Even in the late 60s-mid 70s, generally a weak hitting era at SS, guys like Fregosi, Campy, and Harrah were consistently topping 5.
Que sera, sera.
Well if you want to split it up by league
which IMO is how it should be done with the difference in league strength, there haven’t been any consistent 5 WAR SSs in the AL for quite some time. Bartlett last year had a 4.9 WAR and Jeter a 7 WAR, but those are the only 2 seasons since 2006 with a 5 WAR or over (and I’m giving Bartlett the benefit the .1 WAR there).
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Jeter posted a 6.2 in 2006, too.
And a 4.5 in 2005, and a 5.0 in 2004…
That seems to fit the bill up through 2008, then, for the AL.
It doesn’t surprise me that there would be very few elite shortstops at any given time, and I don’t think I agree with your insistence on dividing it by league.
I won't argue much on the league split
I just feel that since the 2 are kept pretty separate, the DH vs. no DH rule, and giving out the same main awards for each league leaves you with 2 different leagues to look at if you want to talk about who the elite players are.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I don't agree.
I mean, it’s not as if the elite pitchers in the NL and AL are considered incommensurable — and you’d expect the DH to have more impact on them than any other position, I think — so I’m not sure why it’d be different for, say, shortstops.
I think Jeter was pretty clearly elite through 2008 or so, despite his defensive flaws, and there’s a nice long line of 5+ WAR SS stretching back into the 1980s from there.
Why get beyond relativity?
So you’re going to tell me that if no SS has a 5 WAR or w/e reference point you want, that there aren’t any elite SSs?
There have been great players to man the position, but overall, the position has always been more about defense than power. So if you want to use WAR and not look at it relative to the other players at the position, then you could end up with no elite SSs for years based on your definition or just 1 over a certain period of time.
That just doesn’t make sense to me.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
That would be the argument, yes.
I should be clear that I’m not trying to argue for this position, necessarily. I’m very much thinking this through as we go back and forth.
Well, let's work on defining it.
Not only what elite is, but how many years he has to reach it over what period of time.
I’d probably put at least 67% on him doing it for at least one year, and that’s probably low.
OK, we're thinking about this differently.
First, for me, projecting a player’s potential as “elite” involves looking at performance over peak years. And I’m not nearly as high on Andrus’ chances to post multiple 5-WAR seasons as you seem to be.
FG fans have him at 3.5 next year, fwiw
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
I don't want to give the impression
that I think Andrus isn’t and won’t be very good.
He is, and he will be.
But when I think “elite,” I think Tulowitzki and Ramirez, and I don’t see Andrus racking up performances like either of those guys.
See, this is where I can agree.
I’d bet against him being that level, at least consistently, and if that’s you’re definition of elite, that’s cool.
That said, I’d bet against most player’s reach their ceiling, and I certainly don’t think it’s beyond reason that Elvis could reach that level of value, and I’m surprised if someone would tell me his ceiling is lower than that.
This is just like yesterday with “ceiling” and pitcher definitions: I think this stuff becomes a lot of semantics because these terms don’t have very strong definitions.
You think Andrus' ceiling is equal
to Ramirez and/or Tulowitzki, then?
If so, that’s where we disagree.
I'm not asking if you think
Andrus will reach his ceiling, though; I’m asking if you think that ceiling is equivalent to a Ramirez and/or Tulowitzki.
If his ceiling is the same as their ceilings?
Heavens no. If he could under reasonable possibility hit the level they’ve hit? I couldn’t rule it out, even if I’d doubt it.
Not quite.
I’m asking if you think Andrus’ ceiling is equivalent to the level at which Tulowitzki and/or Ramirez are playing, right now.
I would find it hard to believe it's not reasonably possible for him to reach that level.
When someone says “ceiling” to me, it conveys the absolute best someone could reach that doesn’t seem completely out of the question.
Let me help you out here, philkid
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/yes
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/no
Two wonderful options for you to choose from.
hehehe
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
Ugh.
“I would find it hard to believe it’s not reasonably possible for him to reach that level.”
The question isn’t whether, for one random season, he might possibly, amazingly, against anyone’s expectations, post a 7-WAR performance. That’s not what people mean when they talk about “ceiling,” and you know it.
lol
I’m with you on this one philkid. If you’re going to talk about a player’s absolute ceiling, the best case scenario that they could hope for, then that would include one random season where he managed to have everything working for him all at once.
No one here is saying though that Elvis is going to put up 7 WAR seasons consistently.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I'm pretty sure philkid knows what the definition is
His post was in response to you saying:
“That’s not what people mean when they talk about "ceiling," and you know it.”
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I'll let philkid3 speak for himself.
I’ll stand by what I wrote.
I’ve never seen anyone have a serious discussion about ceiling, as a matter of projection, and use it refer to what could possibly happen in one gods-must-be-crazy season.
I really don't think that's what he said.
by brettgardner on Dec 19, 2010 3:17 PM CST up reply actions
It's what Gdawg said.
I’m with you on this one philkid. If you’re going to talk about a player’s absolute ceiling, the best case scenario that they could hope for, then that would include one random season where he managed to have everything working for him all at once.
Again, I’m not speaking for philkid3.
OK, well your snark is directed at philkid
And it doesn’t seem like you two are disagreeing very much.
by brettgardner on Dec 19, 2010 3:22 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not trying to direct any snark
at philkid, and I think our disagreement is reasonable. I hope no one’s nose is out of joint; mine’s certainly not.
Well maybe you're the lord of tolerance
But when I see “Ugh.” as the subject line, I tend to think the guy saying it doesn’t have a lot of respect for me or what I’m saying.
by brettgardner on Dec 19, 2010 3:26 PM CST up reply actions
If philkid3's insulted,
or thinks I lack respect for him or what he’s saying, then I hope he lets me know.
My guess (and hope) would be that he knows how much I respect him and what he says.
“Lord of tolerance” is nice and snarky though, Brett.
Well I'm not having a reasonable discussion with you or anybody.
Nice try, though.
by brettgardner on Dec 19, 2010 3:30 PM CST up reply actions
Nice try at what?
I know better, at this point, than to try to draw you into a reasonable discussion with me, if that’s what you mean. That decision’s entirely up to you.
FWIW
I wasn’t offended by Josh at all, but I also appreciate anyone who concerns themselves over that.
I'm not trying to speak for him, he can do it himself
But the way I read his posts on the matter, that’s how I understood his meaning of it. His words on it:
When someone says "ceiling" to me, it conveys the absolute best someone could reach that doesn’t seem completely out of the question.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Ah, yes, thanks.
That doesn’t convey a one-season definition to me, but if that’s what philkid3 meant, then I’d disagree with that definition — and again, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a discussion ceiling that used it in that way.
.
Sometimes I don’t speak too bright
but yet I know what I’m talking about
Why can’t we be friends?
Why can’t we be friends?
Why can’t we be friends?
Why can’t we be friends?
I know you’re working for the CIA
they wouldn’t have you in the Mafia
Why can’t we be friends?
Why can’t we be friends?
Why can’t we be friends?
Why can’t we be friends?
Que sera, sera.
Next time I'm gonna try Chaplin's 'Smile'.
The Angrydome will one day live in a placid, content state.
Que sera, sera.
In list form, I'd put it somewhere around the top 25 or so players in baseball.
Maybe more like top 20, or debatably as good as the 20th. Something like that.
Or, I should say.
I think he’s at least slightly better than 50/50 to be.
I wouldn’t bet heavily on it, but if I had to put my money on either yes or no, it would be yes.
Boy do I love Elvis, but I'm not sure about that.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
If folks want to keep Andrus
past his 6 years of control, they better hope he isn’t one of the best in 2014 :)
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Are you saying this from a scouting perspective?
He might never have the power to be truly elite, but some doubles power with the rare HR to go along with his speed, on base skills, and contact skills could easily make him one of the top hitting SSs in the league. He’s not going to be a Hanley or Tulowitzki, but he can still be right outside that very small group of SSs.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Who is overvaluing Profar
You act like we wouldnt have traded him
we wouldve traded him, but KC wanted someone MLB ready…they wanted Elvis
Josey Wales is stupid
When does the banning start?
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
God I wish.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Dec 19, 2010 12:20 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Geriatric fart
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
Also
I hate this offensive line so much.
"By MLB.TV, we can see J. Hamilton's homer, M. Young's clutch, and N. Feliz's explosive. All about Rangers things can be our interest"
--South Korean Rangers fan
Greinke Reaction - Klaw
Klaw has his Greinke reaction up on ESPN Insider.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 19, 2010 12:34 PM CST reply actions
Hey look, he says they are contenders with one of the best rotations in baseball.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 12:36 PM CST up reply actions
Oh that's right, he's a scout, so he has no idea what he's saying about the MLB.
Silly me.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I know he was with the Jays.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 12:52 PM CST up reply actions
He has a monosyllabic name.
He’s like the Steve Sax of baseball evaluators.
And he’s a foodie.
Que sera, sera.
And he went to Harvard, and he wrote for BP. What am I missing here?
That he likes to write about food a bunch?
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
He was for Toronto what DePodesta was for the A's.
At least that was Ricciardi’s plan. He is primarily a stat guy. He also talks about prospects a lot because he has a wide range of experience and interest.
He is not a scout.
But he knows his baseball. When he talks about scouting,
at least from what I have read, he refers to the people who have knowledge on the issue.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 1:03 PM CST up reply actions
I take it you don't value his opinion?
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 1:11 PM CST up reply actions
Your signature is extra-appropriate today.
You honestly need to take a step back and assess the situation with a reasoned head, and also get your mind around what other people are actually saying, before you make yourself look even worse.
I'm looking at this reasonably.
The Angels, with a full season of Haren and Morales, should be a few wins better. And if they sign Beltre, they’ll probably win 4 or 5 more games with those additions.
Oakland added a few above average players on offense, too. So the AL West won’t be as shitty.
And they’ll have to play Atlanta and Philly instead of Florida and Pittsburgh next season. Is it crazy to say that the Rangers will take a step back next season?
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 12:51 PM CST up reply actions
Not on here enough to know where hornedfrogs45 stance was
the entire 2010 season. But I do think 90 wins will not get it done in 2011. I think the Angels will be much better, and IMO their starting rotation is a step above ours right now. CJ…Colby…then meh. I think we need to add another proven/reliable peice (Nolasco) before ST.
My stance was, the division could have been taken by the A's and Angels.
I felt like the Angels specifically were going to make a run after getting Haren. I wasn’t the only one who was concerned when they were floundering in August. I was just pessimistic. Stupidly so, I’ll admit.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 1:09 PM CST up reply actions
It may come off this way, but I'm not trying to say that I am right and you are wrong.
I’m just stating what I think will happen.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 1:14 PM CST up reply actions
How so? Should I say something like this:
You know, the Rangers had a great 2010. But they had a lot of things go their way in terms of the competition they faced. I think we can all agree that it would have been tough for the Rangers to have made the playoffs last season if they were in the East.
Now the West is still miles behind the East, but the A’s and Angels have gotten better this offseason (assuming the Angels get Beltre).
I have serious doubts about the rotation’s ability to hold up for the entire season. If CJ or Colby gets hurt, they are in some serious trouble. And they got pretty lucky with those two being healthy for the year.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 1:19 PM CST up reply actions
If you're saying they improved any this offseason
you’re probably overestimating how much they’ve improved.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
So, the Angels with Beltre doesn't help the team at all>
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 1:22 PM CST up reply actions
The A's improve
just by getting older. A lot of their big contributors last year were 22-24 year olds.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
They're due for some regression
from their top SP performers from last year. Their starters last year had a combined 3.47 ERA averaging over 6 innings a game. Do you think they’re that capable of improving on that when Anderson is the only one that wasn’t looking significantly worse by his defensive independent stats?
Not that I don’t think their pitching will be just fine, but they still haven’t done much on offense and they’ll need their pitching to improve on last year significantly if they want to be better than a .500 team. The pieces they’ve added to try and improve that offense isn’t going to save that team. Matsui will replace Cust’s production, but DeJesus and Willingham won’t be that good to where they won’t still have one of the worst offenses in the league.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Your post
is complete bullshit, gdawg.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
btw
Are you going to run away again if I ask you why signing Jenks for 6 million is brain dead but when Theo Epstein does it, its just another brilliant move by the best GM in the game?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I don't think it was a brain-dead move by Theo.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
okay
so 2 years/12 million isn’t brain dead, but 1/6 million is brain dead. Any specific reason why there’s a difference between the 2? Or are you going to respond again with a vague statement that avoids the question?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Gdawg
Theo/Billy Beane = good…JD = bad!!!
Not understanding that is just dumbass!!!
"Calmer than you are dude"
I’m only slightly smarter than a sea sponge
by brettgardner on Sep 10, 2010 12:03 PM PDT
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 19, 2010 2:47 PM CST up reply actions
Theo & Beane were never publicly castrated by their owner and they also didn't need a franchise icon
to come out of retirement and undo their epic messes.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
Answer Gdawg's question
Why was it stupid last week to give Jenks 1 year 6 million, but a good move by Theo to give him 2 years at 12 million. You do realize 2 times 6 equals 12 right?
"Calmer than you are dude"
I’m only slightly smarter than a sea sponge
by brettgardner on Sep 10, 2010 12:03 PM PDT
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 19, 2010 2:56 PM CST up reply actions
Look at the Outlaw
don’t stumble over yourself as you run away from the question.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
What a joke
the outlaw takes his ball and goes home again…
"Calmer than you are dude"
I’m only slightly smarter than a sea sponge
by brettgardner on Sep 10, 2010 12:03 PM PDT
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 19, 2010 3:03 PM CST up reply actions
Always, and he will be back tomorrow and the next day and the next day spouting the same BS only to run away again.
Boring!
"Ooooh....I want some fucking pancakes!" son of willamos2
Wow Cahill
2.97/4.19/4.11
Ouch.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
I'm not saying they've greatly improved. I'm saying they HAVE
improved.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 1:21 PM CST up reply actions
How have they improved?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
And their other 2 big offensive players
are another year older and it looks like both Hunter and Abreu will have to play in the field every day which hurts their overall value to the team.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Being a little hard on the guy you think?
Before last year the Rangers were good at giving fans the angrydome after the ASB. Whats wrong with wanting to improve the roation and not settling with CJ, Colby, and meh?
What did I say is wrong with wanting to improve the rotation?
I’m pretty upset about the Greinke developments.
I was at first
but I would’ve hated to see the Rangers sell the farm for him. I do think there’s other options still out there that could be sleepers(Nolasco).
How likely is Weaver to put up a 5.9 fgWAR again?
And I don’t know, but looking at Haren’s last swim through the AL, that he won’t be more than a 4-ish FIP pitcher, with a penchant for HRs.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
I think Weaver can repeat.
I like that dude, still pissed that was the year we decided not to deal with Boras.
Que sera, sera.
I'd bet on at least one of them maintaining All-Star level again.
And I’d pick Colbyashi out of the two of them.
Its not so far out of the question
that you ignore the drop off guys like Cahill, Braden, Weaver, or Pineiro could see as well.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I'm just saying if your gonna question a repeat from Weaver
you have to question CJ and Colby and their small sample sizes last year.
I wouldn't say otherwise
but the Angels are depending on their rotation to win them the division because their offense, defense, and bullpen right now isn’t going to do it for them. The Rangers definitely would suffer if CJ and/or Colby decline, but this Rangers team is much more balanced and isn’t relying as much on just one group of guys to win them games.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
No, you are not.
You are overreacting, and not understanding what other people are saying to boot. Just like you did during the season when you were acting like the Rangers would lose the division at points when they were prohibitive favorites, or how they couldn’t possibly get through the playoffs.
Saying the Rangers will take a step back is not crazy. Your posts do amount to crazy. Your overreacting to the situation is just a part of the issue.
Yeah, I overvalued the Angels and A's. I thought they were going to close the gap in the season.
I’ve admitted that.
And I was mad about the team blowing games 3 and 4 in the ALDS. And if it wasn’t for Cliff Lee, they don’t win Game 5.
But I was one of the people who was confident they would win the ALCS despite losing that first game. And I predicted the Rangers to win the WS in 6 games.
So you don’t think the Rangers will miss a beat at all in 2011, I take it?
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
You overvalued them. . .
. . . despite the smartest people and the most reliable baseball evidence telling you that.
So, shouldn’t that have been a learning process for you?
I think it is entirely possible the Rangers will miss a beat, that’s beside the point.
Well, the smartest men in baseball said the Rangers would win the WS.
So, they aren’t perfect. Nobody is. I don’t think one stupid prediction means someone will always be wrong.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 1:05 PM CST up reply actions
You understand sample size, right?
Being perfect doesn’t mean they don’t understand things better than you do.
Yes, I know that.
Don't listen to me. I'm a fucking moron.
by hornedfrogs45 on Dec 19, 2010 1:11 PM CST up reply actions
Rotation
What Klaw actually said regarding the Brewers rotation:
With Greinke, the Brewers now have three pitchers who’d comfortably slot in as No. 1 or No. 2 starters in most rotations in baseball, pushing Randy Wolf back to the fourth starter role and leaving them with just a hole in the five-spot, something you could say for a lot of contenders.
Certainly did not call them one of the best in baseball, but certainly equates them to a contending team
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 19, 2010 1:11 PM CST up reply actions
I don't find that to be particularly going out on a limb.
A 79 second-order win team added a pitcher who two years ago had about a nine WAR season in a more difficult league. Even at first glance that sure seems like “contender” is more than possible.
And, equally "important":
That makes [the Brewers] contenders, but not favorites, in the NL Central in the last year of Prince Fielder’s contract.
I don’t see that as overwhelmingly exhilarating for Brewers fan. Exciting? Of course. But trading for Greinke and still weighing in as “contenders, but not favorites” in the division?
If you are Milwaukee it makes sense
What are the chances they will have talents like Prince, Braun, Gallardo together at the same time? They developed 3 elite players and this is the last year they get to have all of them, seems to me that is the perfect time to push all your chips to the middle of the table. Chances are you will never have a better hand of cards to play.
Oh, I agree.
But in terms of what Law wrote, I think it’s important to underscore the fact that as much as he likes the deal for the Brewers, he still doesn’t think it makes them favorites even in their division, never mind in terms of the postseason.
MLB Trade Rumors
mentions speculation that the Red Sox are looking to trade Papelbon and the Rangers as a possible match. Aside from most on heres hatred from him, do you think the Rangers would use him as a closer so Feliz could move to the rotation or as a starter?
"Calmer than you are dude"
I’m only slightly smarter than a sea sponge
by brettgardner on Sep 10, 2010 12:03 PM PDT
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 19, 2010 1:08 PM CST reply actions
I'd rather roll with Ogando, Fx2, and Scheppers than trade anything of value for Papelbon.
Que sera, sera.
I hope not.
That would be terrible. In his Jenks write up, Law said something to the effect that Papelbon is a one pitch pitcher, and has been unwilling to alter his approach to pitching (relying on secondary pitches).
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 19, 2010 1:15 PM CST up reply actions
Okay
the question was if the Rangers got Papelbon, which nobody on this board has a say in the result of that, would you rather see him as a late inning bullpen guy or try again as a starter?
"Calmer than you are dude"
I’m only slightly smarter than a sea sponge
by brettgardner on Sep 10, 2010 12:03 PM PDT
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 19, 2010 1:21 PM CST up reply actions
One-pitch Pitcher
Well, if Papelbon is a one-pitch pitcher, he would suck as a starter.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 19, 2010 1:25 PM CST up reply actions
Castrate me, now.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
So
If JD doesn’t add Nolasco or Garza, is this offseason considered a disappointment? Only addition is Torrealba, while losing Lee and having no choice but to bring back Vlad.
Honestly, at this point
I don’t see how this offseason can’t be considered a disappointment regardless of what JD does.
We might still win the AL West, but we certainly haven’t gotten any help in the offseason.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I think Ordonez would have been perfect.
"I’m not in the meetings and not part of the discussions; it’s not my responsibility. . My responsibility is to go out and win tonight. My focus is to win tonight. The club has to look at more than just this year." -Michael Young
But he wasn't coming here anyway
I wanted him too.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
We can still get Manny...
Now imagine me making that little sing-song Dunham does when he warns of a UNT upset.
Que sera, sera.
he's only 45
/MikeE
"But I don't know, something in Philly, I don't know what it is; maybe it's those cheese sticks or sandwiches or whatever they are."
Derek Holland
yeah
But not a massive one like some will argue.
We didn’t lose anyone from the core of our team that won 90 games in the regular season. We have until July 31st to reinforce our pitching for the postseason but what we have can get us there IMO
Pinning your hopes on a trade deadline deal when you are more desperate
than ever, doesn’t seem to be a very good strategy.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
Did our deadline deals last year help us in the regular season or the playoffs?
Without those deals we still make the playoffs.
You don’t win the WS in December or January
Philly & Boston both put themselves in extremely envious positions
this off-season while our GM sat at home with his thumbs up his ass.
Given what just happened this off-season, how much money we have, how short our Window is open and how many prospects we supposedly have….this off-season, to date, has been a disaster.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
Disaster.....no
Disaster would have been trading Hamilton, CJ, Cruz, and Elvis and rebuilding.
Disappointment……yes. We weren’t as fortunate as Boston in that our needs didn’t line up with what was available on the FA market. Boston didn’t need a Sp so they didn’t have to wait on Lee before doing something else.
And other than Lee Philly hasn’t done anything. It sucks we lost out on him but its not like we didn’t try. it also sucks that our farm didn’t line up with KCs demands which prevented us from getting Greinke.
Could there be other moves out there we could make….sure. We could go get Nolasco, or Garza. But if we do nothing, aside from signing Vlad which seems like a given right now, we still go into 2011 serious contenders and slight favorites IMO for the AL West. We see how guys like Hunter and Holland progress, How Elvis builds off his successful postseason run, how Borbon and Moreland do, and then we re-evaluate come June-ish. Maybe Holland steps up and pitches like a 2 or 3. You re-assess and make moves from there.
Not panicking is much better than throwing money at someone just to say you spent money
I don't understand JW's love affair with BOS
Their SP is suspect, and replacing Beltre with AGon is a wash. They are tied up in contracts with AGon and Crawford so getting a solid SP to help that roto is nill.
Lackey and Beckett are regressing hard plus the unknown guy Dice-K
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
Lackey posted a 4 WAR last year as their number 3 guy.
If he gives the Red Sox 3.5-4.0 WAR next year in the same role, how is that a bad thing?
fg doesn't seem so high on him
And his peripherals regressed last year.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
He posted a 3.85 FIP and 4.32 xFIP and went 215 IP.
The Bill James projection has him at a 3.89 ERA and 3.81 FIP; the fans have him at a 3.8 WAR.
And he’s their number 3 guy, unless Beckett returns to form, which is very possible, seeing as how 2010 was his second-worst year of his career, and he’s only 31, and still K’ing 8+ per 9.
How about this: how many AL teams’ 3/4 pairings would you take over Lackey and Beckett?
I didn't say he was going to crater
And 3.5 is great for a 3, but at what cost? He still has 4 years and 66mil due. Well, only in Boston or New York…
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
But this isn't about cost (as you're implying).
Whether or not they’re overpaying for it, their starting pitching is not nearly as suspect as some would have you believe.
They have a nice staff, yes.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Sure
I think you would be hard pressed to find a Rangers fan who would not be a little disappointed about the Rangers’ offseason should it end today. Having said that, there are those you in the midst of wailing and gnashing of teeth. That I don’t get.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 19, 2010 1:45 PM CST up reply actions
This off-season has been a complete disappointment and it seems like Tom Hicks never left.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
Its disappointing
But when you’re coming off a World Series trip and a huge midseason deal like the Rangers had, its going to be tough to meet expectations without the Rangers doing their best Yankees impression and just moneywhipping the top 3 FAs out there.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
The offseason is already a disappointment.
Getting Nolasco or Garza isn’t going to change that.
"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel
Sure it's a dissapointment, but could have been done differently
Lee-wanted to go to Philly, we offered the money but didn’t go 7, IMO the smart thing to do. Lee doesn’t guarantee WS victory, we didn’t get it this year.
Greinke-I’m sorry, 4 years of Elvis>2 years of Greinke. If you didn’t throw in Elvis, KC was not dealing with us it appears. Nothing we can do about that.
Beltre/Crawford-lots of money and long term commitments for players that you probably shouldn’t commit long term too. Crawford probably means Hamilton in center most of the time. Beltre only if you could move Young, because he is not a good fit/willing participant for DH. The only reason Young came up in discussion is probably because he was asked about, and then rumors spun out of control. Maybe that’s speculation on my part or just buying into Ranger damage control talk.
Not a lot of other really good options out there, but there are some and the off-season isn’t over. I know trade deadline “desperation” isn’t a great thing, but you have to see what is there when it comes up.
"The flatulence continues" by RangersSD on Dec 9, 2010 6:39 PM PST
by TheDutchOven on Dec 19, 2010 3:24 PM CST up reply actions
but what could have been done differently
"The flatulence continues" by RangersSD on Dec 9, 2010 6:39 PM PST
by TheDutchOven on Dec 19, 2010 3:25 PM CST up reply actions
Well, it's official.
This offseason sucks.
"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel
OT --- top 5 position players in the AL West
Off the top of my head, wouldn’t Hambone, Cruz, and Kinsler rate as top 5 players in the division?
Would they be the top 3?
Well
assuming they don’t get injured, they have good shots. That’s a mighty daunting assumption tho.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
If you could choose 3-WAR position players from the AL West next year...
who would you pick?
Ichiro obviously belongs in the discussion and I guess maybe Torrriii, Kendry, or Willingham, but I’d pick Kinsler and both our OF easily over any of that last group. Unless there is somebody I’m not thinking about…
So much of Gutierrez's value is defensive.
I’m skeptical he’ll ever hit enough to vault that high. That 2009 season, in terms of WAR… a full 3.1 wins of the 6.1 were from the fielding valuation.
on a side note
this made me look up Murphy’s WAR from last season. 2 WAR in 471 PAs with an uncharacteristically low UZR. He’s obviously hurt by his production against LHP, but Murphy getting an everyday COF job probably isn’t too far from some guys in that bunch.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
He's not one of the top 3 position players on the Angels
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 2:37 PM CST up reply actions
Actually, I'm being overly harsh, probably
Hunter is in the top 3 of the Angels positional players, I think.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2010 2:40 PM CST up reply actions
The Angels really don't have great position players
Hunter would be up there.
He’s definitely not top 5, and probably not top 10 in the division.
Go Rice Owls!
Barton, Pennington, Crisp, and Ellis (tied at 3.2)
Led Kinsler last season. So, Hammy, Cruz, and then the other 5 players, according to fgWAR.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Oh yeah
Hunter at 3.5 too.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Agree
In fact, I had to switch from ‘qualified only’ to see Cruz, and he was still 5.1 in 108 games…jeebers.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Hammy & Cruz for sure
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
I have no real evidence for this
just intuition looking at the WARs of a Crisp or Pennington compared to Cahill and their other starters.
Go Rice Owls!
On potential 162 game seasons from them
You’d have to be crazy to say they aren’t top 3. With Kinsler’s yearly DL trips, he’s probably borderline top 5. Ichiro, Gutierrez, and Barton are probably there too though I have my doubts about Barton being that good defensively again.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
What happened to Harden's
Wow.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Regarding Beltre:
If the Angels are offering 5/75 as reported, would it be worthwhile to offer him 4/68? One less year of decline to worry about, a bit more $ per year, with perhaps some sort of option for a 5th year?
Perhaps move MY to 1b or even OF if his wheels are not completely gone?
"I’m not in the meetings and not part of the discussions; it’s not my responsibility. . My responsibility is to go out and win tonight. My focus is to win tonight. The club has to look at more than just this year." -Michael Young
Especially now.
There’s nothing left on the shelves.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
by Josey Wales on Dec 20, 2010 8:06 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Look who is back on the playground
any chance you want to answer the question from above? Why was it stupid for JD to give Jenks 1 year 6 million, but a smart move for Theo to give him 2 years 12 million? If you want to take your ball and go home again, I’m sure the board won’t mind…
"Calmer than you are dude"
I’m only slightly smarter than a sea sponge
by brettgardner on Sep 10, 2010 12:03 PM PDT
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 20, 2010 8:07 AM CST up reply actions
Go back and research all context of what was said and then
present a question.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
Probably means they would hold on to Johnson no matter the haul, too.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
I'd give them the entire city of Dallas for him.
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
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