Greinke Trade Alternatives ---> Would you have traded Elvis?
by rooster on Dec 19, 2010 12:19 PM CST
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PrintMoore wanted nothing more or less than ML-ready, up-the-middle players. Not exactly the Rangers strength, unless Elvis is in the conversation. I think I would've been supportive of such a trade, but only if I had known that the Rangers would've had to have beaten the Nats/Brewers offers (Espinosa or Escobar).
I'm certain we can all come up with alternatives at SS, and, so, I've put a couple of plausible ideas in a poll. Let's dump any other alternatives that folks can imagine in the comments.
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I still haven't answered my own poll, because I have to figure out what I really think Beltre can do.
None of the SS options, however, would profile as top of the order hitters. So, if the Rangers got Beltre, Face would have to move to leadoff or the 2-spot (with Borbon at leadoff?).
Godspeed Mike Olt.
No way you get rid of Elvis.
I kind of have my hopes up for Garza. I have a feeling the asking price might be high but you might as well try. He does kind of have a temper but he loves what he does and is passionate we need one of those guys on the team. Ian can only get thrown out so much.
Plus when he’s on he has dominating stuff. I think he’d fit in nice here.
I'm just goofin' new boot goofin'
Assuming we got some KC prospects back
and I probably would ask for Hosmer since they have Butler, and it’s Dayton Moore, I can conceive of a trade where I included Elvis and Borbon.
Especially since I’m fairly well convinced we only have Elvis for 4 more years, anyway.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Four years is a long time.
Andrus is awesome…there aren’t many players in Baseball that I’d give up four years of Andrus for. Grienke isn’t one of them, even with prospects coming back.
by Black Francis on Dec 19, 2010 1:21 PM CST up reply actions
Well
last year, Andrus was the 13th best SS in baseball according to Fangraphs WAR, and I think Greinke has significantly more impact than Andrus does next year, and honestly, I’m much more concerned about this year and next than 4 years from now.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I think Elvis is massively overrated by the LSB community
He’s a good young player, with the chance to be a great one depending on how his offensive game develops, but he ain’t there yet and he didn’t really do much this year to indicate he was on his way there any kind of soon, aside from taking a bunch of walks in April.
The only thing that really makes him untouchable is he’s the only starting shortstop option we’ve currently got.
I NEVER SAID BATMAN!!!
Well
he is a league average SS, and that ain’t nothing for a 21 year old. However, the folks who seem to think he will be an elite, top 20 player in the league are off. I just doubt he ever has the power to do that.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Yeah, that's the thing
I’m not saying he’s not gonna be good, just not THAT good. Save for the fact that we have nobody else who can start at short, he’s not someone who should really be a dealbreaker by himself in a trade for Zack Grienke, a guy who already is one of the top 20 players in the league.
I NEVER SAID BATMAN!!!
Honestly if you could pick up a
Cabrera, say, I’m not sure you really give up all that much at the SS position, in the short run.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I'm hoping for something like Edgar Renteria,
with the assumption that the Rangers actually have him on the team for longer than his current contract.
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
by GhettoBear04 on Dec 19, 2010 6:33 PM CST up reply actions
I believe in SS defense
And I think Andrus will be very, very good over the next few years. That helps the whole team. He may not have power but I think he’s a good enough hitter to keep if at all possible, considering his speed and defense and the fact that he’s cheap.
Anyway, the Rangers should have enough depth to get almost any player without giving up one of their current core players.
by Black Francis on Dec 19, 2010 5:04 PM CST up reply actions
I believe in
offense plus defense from all position players.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
by DJCahill on Dec 19, 2010 5:08 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm sure we all do.
I think Andrus can provide both.
by Black Francis on Dec 19, 2010 5:24 PM CST up reply actions
His offense
has yet to be on display, other than short streaks.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
He's very young
…like has been said. I don’t know how accurate their projections are, but fangraphs has him at a 3.5 next season. I think in 2010 he was just honing his eye, trying to take pitches and mix in some walks. His approach was much different than in 2009 when he was better overall at the plate. At some point he’s going to start hitting and it will be because of experience. Physically I think he has the skills. Mentally he certainly seems to have an idea. It’ll come together.
by Black Francis on Dec 19, 2010 8:49 PM CST up reply actions
Quick quiz Cahill
name the Ranger who led the team in walks drawn in 2010.
hint: I wouldn’t trade him for Greinke.
Book: [to Mal] If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.
I like this concept.
"But I don't know, something in Philly, I don't know what it is; maybe it's those cheese sticks or sandwiches or whatever they are."
Derek Holland
Don't look at the man manning 3B.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Hahahahaha
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
I looked on BR at Elvis' comparables.
number one age based comparison: Alan Trammell.
and, looking at the comparison, its kinda creepy with a few exceptions:
293-300 games
1068-951 ab
.266-.268 AV
.336-.331 OBA
.333-.341 SLG
11-10 TP
6-8 HR
the differences:
160-123 runs scored.
173-123 strikeouts.
65-20 stolen bases.
plus, I think that Elvis is a better fielder.
Book: [to Mal] If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.
I'm ready to just move on and not talk about it anymore...
this offseason has just been too frustrating.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
oops.
I initially thought I could live with Renteria at SS for a couple of years, but then I looked at his numbers the past two years.
ugh.
I think Hamilton is the only unreplaceable talent on the team, but I’m having a hard time finding a way to let go of Andrus, even for Greinke.
Conceptually, I see no problem with include Andrus for Geinke, but when I can’t see the real-world fill-in for Andrus that works for the Rangers.
Godspeed Mike Olt.
I didn't even read the choices.
No way in hell I give them Elvis.
"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel
Elvis for Greinke straight up?
I don’t think I even do that, but I have an irrational love for Elvis.
It's funny...
to look back at the reaction when I suggested Elvis +Erlin + Kirkman for Greinke. I can’t imagine the Rangers without Elvis at SS.
Well, I don't know, I voted for picking up Renteria and trading Elvis to obtain Greinke.
But, it’s almost impossible to find a SS who can play good defense and lead off. It’s not a WAR bonanza, but it is a skill set combo that is almost impossible to replace.
So, yeah, if the Rangers had traded Elvis and picked up Renteria, I could’ve stomached it.
Godspeed Mike Olt.
yea, agreed
that skill set in a young prospet is very rare.
Got Nothing... someone give me a good one
I've said this before in regards to Elvis
Its time to extend him and make him the face of the franchise. We need to do what the Dback and the Rays did with Upton and Longoria.
Except those two guys are a lot better than he is.
Especially Longoria.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Good luck with that.
Boras clients are so famous for having FA years bought out.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Can you confirm that Boras is his agent?
I’ve never seen this confirmed by anyone.
by Monkey Brain on Dec 19, 2010 7:14 PM CST up reply actions
So what's stopping you from confirming it?
"The flatulence continues" by RangersSD on Dec 9, 2010 6:39 PM PST
by TheDutchOven on Dec 19, 2010 7:45 PM CST up reply actions
I've looked and I still haven't found a good source that confirms it.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/10/scott-boras-cli.html
That list was updated on 11/22/2010
by Monkey Brain on Dec 19, 2010 8:05 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I have said that he was a Boras client before
But it is dreadfully hard to confirm on the web.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Call Boras' office tomorrow.
I bet they’ll tell you.
by Black Francis on Dec 19, 2010 8:51 PM CST up reply actions
I doubt this
Unless you’re with an interested MLB team
"The flatulence continues" by RangersSD on Dec 9, 2010 6:39 PM PST
by TheDutchOven on Dec 19, 2010 9:34 PM CST up reply actions
Joey Matches mentioned it at some point...
if you believe some of the comments in this article..
http://www.bbtia.com/home/2010/9/10/getting-realistic-about-elvis-andrus.html
"But I don't know, something in Philly, I don't know what it is; maybe it's those cheese sticks or sandwiches or whatever they are."
Derek Holland
Well according to this..(Not sure how accurate)
Elvis Andrus is not a Boras client..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Boras
Julio Borbon and Chris Davis are, though.
by TooLegitToQuit on Dec 19, 2010 8:03 PM CST up reply actions
Real worried about locking those two up..
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
TR Mentioned it once
http://trsullivan.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/04/monday_morning_managerwhat_we.html
* Elvis Andrus is not only the Rangers best defensive player but also leading them in on-base percentage. Somewhere agent Scott Boras is smiling and counting the days
It’s possible you could interpret that as Boras wanting to be his agent at some point.
"I fully expect to lose tonight" -- LSJ
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 20, 2010 9:13 AM CST up reply actions
I tweeted Badler
about his suggestion that an equivalent Rangers package would include Andrus, Scheppers, Borbon and Erlin.
Dealing Andrus would be ridiculous and backwards. What about Holland+Profar+Ogando+Erlin?
He responded:
Not saying Texas should have made that deal, but it’s the equivalent package. Don’t think Holland/Profar substitution gets it done
It seems Milwaukee was simply a better fit. And their package isn’t all that bad.
"By MLB.TV, we can see J. Hamilton's homer, M. Young's clutch, and N. Feliz's explosive. All about Rangers things can be our interest"
--South Korean Rangers fan
yes, this is close, but Scheppers and Andrus are far superior to Jefress and Escobar
Got Nothing... someone give me a good one
Wake up, chicken.
Trading Elvis for Greinke would be fn dumb. And all those alternatives are straight terrible.. pretty much.
I like Elvis
I do think some folks grossly overrate him, including the folks who think he may end up the one of the 20 best players in the game some day. However, he’d be a fine player to have. If I thought we could control him through his prime years, I’d be even more inclined to keep him.
But I also like Greinke, and in the short run I think Greinke plus a FA SS like Cabrera,who isn’t terrible or Renteria,who isn’t terrible, gets us closer to winning a World Series than holding onto Elvis and getting a pitcher like Bonderman, who is terrible, for the rotation.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
just saw something funny
B-R has a stat called XBT%, extra bases taken, which basically takes the total of times you are first when a single is hit, times when you are on first when a double is hit, and times out are on second when a single is hit. then it takes the total of times when the batter takes an extra base (or more), or, times when the runner goes from first to third on a single, and scores on a double from first or on a single from second, and divides it by the previous number.
for example, elvis’ percentage was 54. he was 20 of 44 going first to third on singles, 7 for 13 scoring from first on doubles, and 18 of 26 on scoring from second on singles.
Bengie Molina’s percentage with the Rangers? 0. fucking 0. in 18 chances, he never once went from first to third, scored from first on a double, or from second on a single. incredible.
Book: [to Mal] If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.
It took several readings of your first paragraph for me to understand what you were talking about.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
I probably would've just put Blanco at short and signed a utility player.
He obviously won’t hit, but he can handle short fine.
what utility player?
khalil greene?
This team do what it do ~ Ron Washington
I didn't see a reason to go out there 'n ack-a-fool ~ Ron Washington on the Ben and Skin show
by Eric Prince on Dec 20, 2010 10:01 PM CST up reply actions
Arias just got DFA'd, didn't he?
Kidding.
Not sure. Presumably just a scrub with an inkling of defensive ability.
by AsDevilsRun on Dec 20, 2010 10:06 PM CST up reply actions
I think Elvis would have been a necessary piece in a Greinke trade
but I wouldn’t do it. Elvis’s defense is the backbone of our pitching-and-defense-first system, and his speed works well with Wash’s game. Greinke hasn’t yet proven that he can be a consistent ace, and he has anxiety issues to boot. No deal.
by JoeyJoeJoeJr.Shabadoo on Dec 20, 2010 9:51 PM CST reply actions
Quick question.
besides Andrus, who has plus plus defense in our infield? Kinsler is very good, but not great. Moreland? Face? Yeah, we lose Andrus, we lose a big piece in our defense first mentality. If Profar or Sardinas were closer to contributing at the big league level, I might be able to stomach it. But they aren’t, and we need a top of the line defensive middle infielder more than we need Greinke.
This team do what it do ~ Ron Washington
I didn't see a reason to go out there 'n ack-a-fool ~ Ron Washington on the Ben and Skin show
Ian Kinsler
is probably somewhere between an above average and very good defensive second basemen. He’s got range, it’s just that he hasn’t been able to utilize it properly in the past.
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
by GhettoBear04 on Dec 20, 2010 11:24 PM CST up reply actions
Actually,
I’m not sure you can call last year’s defense by Andrus plus plus. It was more meh, meh. According to UZR/150, Elvis wasn’t even the best defensive SS in the division. That would have been the A’s Pennington. Even the free agent Cabrera’s defense was better.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I think you'd probably expect him to still be at least above average going forward, though.
That was the book on him all throughout his minor league career, and he was awesome in 2009.
It’s true far in his major league numbers are probably inconclusive as to his true skill, since his two seasons where so radically different and a single season shouldn’t be considered an end-all either way, but based on what his skillset is supposed to be I think there’s more reason to expect him to be closer to what he did in 2009 defensively than 2010.
I NEVER SAID BATMAN!!!
I do expect him to be above average
going forward, but when anyone says “plus, plus” you expect him to be around the best in the league, not a little better than league average. Also when he says Andrus is the only one with plus plus defense, I think you can make the case that Kinsler was better defensively than Andrus last year, relative to their positions.
However, a lot of folks are treating him like he is completely irreplaceable and a superstar already, and right now he is just a midpack SS. I expect him to be much better when he hits his prime, but when he hits his prime, I also expect him to no longer be a Ranger. Boras clients always seem to find their way to FA, and they usually don’t get extended.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Yeah, I think I finally see what Kevin Goldstein was talking about when he claimed everyone overrated Elvis when he was coming up
He’s a pretty young face with exciting defense at a premium position and speed, with the chance to be special if he ever tops out his offensive potential, but I think people look at the other factors and tend to overestimate the chances of that last part happening, at least anytime soon.
And I suspect one of the reasons the Rangers have gone and signed so dang many latin shortstops is they know Elvis is probably gone for sure if he ever does see significant growth in his offensive game. My guess is they probably see him as the guy, or one of them, that they’ll be able to trade to reload the farm system when our window closes in 2-3 years.
I NEVER SAID BATMAN!!!
I hope they signed so many latin shortstop because that appeared to be the market strength or
unrecognized value.
Elvis is off limits is becoming an annoying thought among Ranger followers. I’m happy to see about 25% of LSB could see the possible value of trading Elvis.
Godspeed Mike Olt.
this from Sherman this morning
The Royals wanted catcher Jesus Montero, shortstop Eduardo Nunez and either Dellin Betances or Manuel Banuelos. The sides did not get further than that in discussions, but the Royals also said tjeu would need a fourth piece, another pitcher. Kansas City liked the Triple A-level arms such as Hector Noesi, Ivan Nova, Adam Warren and David Phelps.
"what I have learned in 11 years in the sports business is that the dumbest guys in the room are always the media guys." - mark cuban
so
I’m thinking from that kind of demand to the players they got from Milwaukee; teams just weren’t going to give up a lot for Zach.
Would love to know what KC wanted from Texas…so yeah, Evan or TR, do some Joel Shermanesque work and find out.
"what I have learned in 11 years in the sports business is that the dumbest guys in the room are always the media guys." - mark cuban
Seems like they wanted the moon from certain teams..
And considering all their rumored offers and ones they were close to like the Nationals before ZG nixed that, its not a stretch that they wanted Elvis. Al their offers seems to have ML SS and or OF..Seems like depending on the farm systems they probably wanted a lot more and ended up settling for the Brewers when teams weren’t giving in.
It seems that most GM's
are interested in sending this sort of player to the other league. Cliff Lee trades 1 and 2, Haren trades 1 and 2, Greinke, etc.
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
by GhettoBear04 on Dec 21, 2010 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
Sending Grienke to the NL makes no sense for the Royals.
Why do you care where he goes? He may come back in two years anyway, what difference does it make to you?
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Its the Royals
If you understood what was going on in their heads you would have to kill yourself.
What do voluntary mean?
The dude abides.....
by JKolar on Dec 21, 2010 10:29 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Probably played a factor.
That Yankees package would’ve blown the Brewers one out of the water.
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