Christmas Eve Rangers things
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 24, 2010 9:45 AM CST
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PrintIt appears the Rangers are adding a pitcher, and once again, it appears the Rangers are signing someone who didn't even appear to be on their radar...
Anthony Andro writes that a deal with lefty reliever Arthur Rhodes is expected to be announced next week.
T.R. Sullivan says that the Rhodes deal is a one year contract with a vesting option, which means that it will be hard for it to be a bad deal. Sullivan also writes in the same piece that the Rangers are still pursuing Brandon Webb and Vladimir Guerrero, among other options, and has this to say about the team's pursuit of Zack Greinke:
The Rangers, by all accounts, did press the Royals on Zack Greinke before he was dealt to the Brewers. There were suggestions that Royals general manager Dayton Moore wanted to send Greinke to the National League, but it is also true that the Rangers weren't willing to give up the crown jewels of their farm system in any deal. The Rangers also didn't have the up-the-middle players wanted by the Royals, who snagged a shortstop and a center fielder in the deal with the Brewers.
We've been -- or at least, I've been -- assuming that the last part is what the hang-up has been, but if Sullivan is correct, then the bigger problem may have been the team's unwillingness to include Martin Perez, Tanner Scheppers, or Jurickson Profar in a deal. If so, that means that the Rangers' offer would have likely have been something like Derek Holland and one or two other minor league pieces...and if that is the case, then I think you have to question whether the Rangers were really all that serious about Greinke in the first place.
In any case, the addition of Rhodes means that, as things stand now, the Rangers' bullpen consists of Neftali Feliz as the closer, Alexi Ogando and Frank Francisco as righthanded setup men, Arthur Rhodes and Darren Oliver as lefthanded setup men, and Mark Lowe and Darren O'Day as middle relievers. There's no long reliever, and guys like Yoshinori Tateyama, Pedro Strop, Clay Rapada, Guillermo Moscoso, Mason Tobin, Zach Phillips, and Michael Kirkman are all hanging around on the outside as well.
This seems, to me, to make it a lot more likely that Feliz or Ogando will end up getting a legit shot at making the starting rotation. At this point, the Rangers have a whole lot of options in the bullpen, but even if they sign Webb, are shorthanded when it comes to starting pitching depth. Feliz or Ogando moving to the rotation would definitely help shore that up.
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I don't see how you can say the Rangers weren't serious about Greinke
I think its pretty obvious what happened here. When the offseason started and Greinke initially asked for a trade the Royals shopped him around but asked for the moon in return. And for the rangers that probably did mean a package of Perez, Profar, Beltre, and others given how Moore initially stated he wanted two studs back in exchange for Greinke.
Once Greinke switched agents and then requested, key component there, a trade the Brewers then went and got the best deal for their situation. That being they have a plethora or stud prospects coming up within the next 18 months who figure to provide the bulk of their offense so they needed good defensive up the middle players. Thats where we didn’t fit their need.
Greinke
If the Rangers weren’t willing to give up the crown jewels of their farm system in any deal, then they weren’t serious about trading for Greinke. It should have been clear from day one that at least two or three from the group of Perez, Scheppers, Profar and Beltre were going to have to be a part of any package to get him. If weren’t going to offer those guys (or Andrus), then weren’t serious.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 24, 2010 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
Based on previous trades I dont think it would have taken 2 or 3 of those guys
Look at what the Halladay and Lee deals were.
Once it changed from biggest/best package to targeting a need in trade the Rangers didn’t match up still. I think the Rangers were very serious about trading for Greinke but the demands were too outlandish to start with and then they moved to a point where the Rangers simply didn’t match up.
So you think
The Rangers seriously could have traded for Greinke with giving up any of the “crown jewels of their farm system”?
by Darrell McKown on Dec 24, 2010 10:29 AM CST up reply actions
Giving up any?
Or only giving up 1?
I think we would have done 1 but when KC insisted on multiple thats where we drew the line. Had Greinke not requested the trade I think the price would have dropped around the middle of January and we pull the trigger.
Huh?
Why would the price have dropped had he not requested a trade? Requesting a trade hurt KC’s leverage, it didn’t help it.
What package could the Rangers have put together with only one of Perez, Scheppers, Profar and Beltre that would have competed with the Brewers’ package?
by Darrell McKown on Dec 24, 2010 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
He was going to get traded this winter
Requesting the trade cause the Royals to switch their approach from getting the best quality to getting the best fit for their team.
Had Greinke not formally requested a trade and nobody caved in to the Royals absurd demands then the price would have dropped. Not by a lot but enough that it wouldn’t have taken 2 or 3 of our top prospects.
it still would have likely taken one of them, most likely Perez or Profar. But the other components could have been from that next tier of prospects. either the high upside lower level guys or some of the more polished middle-upper level guys.
That doesn't make sense
The Royals, without the pressure of the trade request, would have taken less than what Milwaukee was offering them now. That’s essentially what you are saying.
What would the package have been? Who could the Rangers have traded to Greinke that topped the Brewers offer without trading more than one of Perez, Scheppers, Profar or Beltre?
by Darrell McKown on Dec 24, 2010 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
Perez, Sardinas, Skole and a couple arms
Theres a lot of choices that could have made a deal doable with only one of our top tier prospects that would have beaten what Milwaukee gave up
You can't trade Skole right now
And again, if Sullivan is right, the Rangers weren’t willing to part with Perez.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 24, 2010 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
And Sardinas is up for the year with the shoulder, so can't imagine him actually having trade value right now
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
Did you call the hypothetical hardware store and buy a theoretical chain saw?
he's out for the whole effn year?
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
Never say never
But probably, yeah, from the reports I’ve seen.
:(
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
Did you call the hypothetical hardware store and buy a theoretical chain saw?
first thought that came to my mind...
although I don’t know what level Arias was in when he tore his up.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
A lot closer to the majors than Sardinas
But it’s the effect of blowing out your shoulder that worries me.
We don’t really know for sure how comparable their injuries are of course, but we do know Arias never recovered, which kinda makes me hold my breath for Sardinas’ recovery.
I NEVER SAID BATMAN!!!
I don't know that the Royals...
…would be all that interested in having a key piece of the Greinke return hang out in the Rangers’ system for the next six months…
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 24, 2010 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
And Sullivan doesn't say they wouldn't part with just one he says they wouldn't part with their crown jewels
Which to me reads that KC wanted 2 or even 3 of Perez/Beltre/Profar/Scheppers
Okay
We are just interpreting what he wrote differently, I guess.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 24, 2010 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
That's absurd
Skole can’t be traded until next summer.
Sardinas is out for the season with major shoulder surgery.
So your offer for one of the best pitchers in baseball is Martin Perez, a guy you can’t trade, a shortstop who can’t throw a baseball right now, and a couple of pitchers you declined to name.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 24, 2010 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
Skole can be traded
It wouldn’t go through until June but he could be the PTBNL right now
Forgot about Sardinas but that isn’t a sticking point.
You could get a deal done with only one of the top tier prospects. It may require you to deal more depth than you intended but you would keep most of the impact guys
That's not happening
Do you have any other examples of where someone has been traded in the winter, was a major part of the deal, and the acquiring team allowed him to be under the training, development and medical supervision of the trading team for six months? That’s not a realistic element of a serious trade offer.
So, again, who would be in your offer, that would top the offer made by the Brewers?
by Darrell McKown on Dec 24, 2010 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
Its a very realistic element
The Rangers and Royals share a complex in Suprise so if it was going to happen these two teams would be ideal. The Royals could have very close supervision over Skole while in ST and then a agreement could be in place to keep Skole back in Suprise for awhile instead of going to Hickory to start the season.
Perez, Skole, Erlin, + a couple other arms
You can be serious about something
yet decide not to overpay. I’m sure Texas approached KC with something they felt was reasonable. Just because KC was able to get a better return (measured by value to KC) doesn’t mean Texas wasn’t serious for not wanting to approach it.
Go Rice Owls!
This is a good point
and something that isn’t understood by enough around here.
"Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor."-Capote
I don't disagree with that in concept
But thinking you were going to trade for someone like Zack Greinke without giving up some reasonable combination of your “crown jewels” just isn’t realistic.
I can’t come up with a serious offer for Greinke that doesn’t involve at least one or two of Perez, Scheppers, Holland and Erlin, either Borbon or Beltre, and Profar. I’m not saying trade all or any combination of those guys, but you have to be willing to put some of them in the deal to have a serious shot at trading for Greinke.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 24, 2010 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
well
I never for an instant thought Greinke would be a Ranger, in large part because I just assumed JD wouldn’t (and shouldn’t) trade Perez for him.
That said, and maybe I’m just being semantic about all this, but you can be serious about something while still not being confident about your chances of it working out. I think the Rangers have approached this offseason with a well thought out plan of “here are our weaknesses, and this is what we’re prepared to spend to fill them” He didn’t know what KC would accept for Greinke or what other team’s offers would be – remember what Seattle got Lee for last winter? Maybe Engel Beltre is Moore’s dream prospect? You make the call, make a reasonable offer that is in the ballpark of what you’re willing to pay, and if they come back asking for the moon, you pretty much know where you stand.
Go Rice Owls!
Ok, but
I don’t think you have to offer Perez to be serious, but to exclude all of the “crown jewels”, however they are defined, seems to indicate to me they were going to make a serious offer.
If you don’t offer Perez, I don’t see how, particularly when you see what Milwaukee offered, you don’t have to offer Holland or Scheppers (if not both), Profar, and either Beltre or Borbon, which, if Sullivan is correct, we weren’t willing to do.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 24, 2010 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
Edit
seems to indicate to me they were not going to be make a serious offer.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 24, 2010 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
I have a huge problem parting with Beltre
The kid has as much talent as anyone in the minors. What if he were to explode next year? We would be kicking ourselves for trading him. To me, three prospects are off limits: Beltre, Perez and Profar.
Beltre
That’s what a lot of people said about tading Ruben Mateo for Roger Clemens.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 24, 2010 12:24 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
The Rangers offer
was probably closer to Holland and Kirkman/Ogando (plus lower level prospect). From what I’ve gathered, the Rangers didn’t offer a heavy prospect package. The Royals were looking a major league heavy return.
How do you always come to the conclusion
that the Rangers were looking to trade Holland?
, but it is also true that the Rangers weren’t willing to give up the crown jewels of their farm system in any deal
The way I read that is that the Rangers weren’t willing to give up something like their top 3 prospects just to get Greinke.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Well
I may be reading that wrong. But I read that as, the Rangers weren’t willing to part with any of their top prospects.
And I think they are willing to deal Holland more so than Perez, Scheppers, Profar, etc.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 24, 2010 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
But it seems like you say that all the time
but its based on rumors that never mentions that the Rangers could get away with trading Scheppers instead of Holland or even that the Rangers were shopping Holland at all.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
it's based on those old Cliff Lee rumors
but it was still tenuous reasoning and I’m not even sure it still applies, given that Scheppers got shut down and Holland ended up having a pretty good season.
Holland
more than Scheppers?
If that is the case, then you can’t realistically say that the org hasn’t soured on him. Holland is the guy we wouldn’t include fro Halladay at one point, wasn’t he?
Looking to trade vs. willing to trade
I don’t think they are looking to trade Holland.
But, in a deal to a quality pitcher back, I think they are more willing to move him than Perez, Scheppers and possibly Erlin, based on what we’ve heard the past six months or so.
At this point, I think any deal is unlikely.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 24, 2010 10:14 AM CST up reply actions
I don't think thats the case based on the rumors we've heard
I think they might be forced to move Holland instead of Scheppers because Scheppers doesn’t have the same value as Holland, but I don’t think that makes them more willing to move Holland over Scheppers. For someone like Greinke, Halladay, or Lee, I think Holland has more value than Scheppers who some probably still see as a big injury risk or just a bullpen arm.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I love Erlin
but if some other team had Derek Holland and offered me him for Robbie Erlin, I would do that deal in a heartbeat.
I fear that the org is going to make Holland the headliner for a player like Bully Butler or Prince Fielder.
Just say no.
Holland
If he was the headliner in a deal for Billy Butler, that would probably be a good deal for the Rangers.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 24, 2010 12:25 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I just don't understand...
how this is taken as fact when Daniels is so under the radar that no one knew we were getting Rhodes? I think it’s speculation on Sullivan’s part and even then he was very vague. It could really mean anything and likely nothing.
Rhodes
I think this signing is just like the Oliver signing last year, in that it allows the team to move a reliever into the rotation (Wilson last year, Feliz or Ogando this year).
I would prefer to see Feliz moved, but I think it’s going to be Ogando, even if he starts the season in AAA to work on his secondaries and restrict his innings for the first couple months of the season.
I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see them sign both Webb and another starter (maybe Francis), and then start the year with Holland, Ogando, Scheppers, Kirkman and Harrison in the AAA rotation.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 24, 2010 10:17 AM CST reply actions
I think it maybe spells Kirkman.
Oliver essentially replaced CJ, Rhodes could be replacing him.
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
Kirkman
I think he was already headed to the AAA rotation before Rhodes signed.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 24, 2010 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
I think he gets a chance out of ST.
He’s got good stuff, just probably needs to be stretched out.
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
Kirkman
He’s better a starter his whole career. He really doesn’t need to be stretched out.
He’s a guy I think it’s makes a lot more sense to have starting in AAA than in the ML bullpen. He has options left, and he provides depth while developing more.
I think they would have kept Rapada over Kirkman, absent the Rhodes signing.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 24, 2010 10:44 AM CST up reply actions
Pretty upsetting
that we are talking about having to move Michael Kirkman into the rotation due to lack of better options on Dec 24th.
We are talking about the AAA rotation.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 24, 2010 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
Back in the day (2007)
Kirkman would have been our best pitching prospect. He has had better minor league numbers than Eric Hurley.
I think Kirkman could pretty easily handle being a #5 starter.
Rapada is pretty much limited to ONLY lefties.
He got Cano once, any other time he’s gotten hit and hit HARD. Rapada is a nice piece to have, but Rhodes and Oliver can get both sides of the plate.
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
Rapada
I said they would keep Rapada over Kirkman as a LOOGY, absent the Rhodes signing. I think now he may get DFA’d to make room for Rhodes on the 40-man roster.
by Darrell McKown on Dec 24, 2010 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
I don't know how much Kirkman has left to prove at AAA.
W-L ERA IP H R ER HR BB K WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 K/9 K/BB
2010 OKC13-3 3.09 131.0 115 52 45 8 68 130 1.397 7.9 0.5 4.7 8.9 1.9
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.
by Closure GT on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM CST
Lesson of the offseason:
We need to develop our own ace.
The aces out on the market are just too expensive in terms of money and prospects. We need a Jon Lester.
I hope you are listening Martin Perez.
So baseball teams should try to develop aces, you say?
Well blow me down! Get JD on the phone!
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Dec 24, 2010 4:46 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
how many people want to kill you?
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
Lenny Dykstra Bounced A Check To An Escort
Hi, my name is Josey Wales and I'm a douche. Prove me wrong.
*Jon fumbles around in the junk drawer looking for his check book and yellow pages...
"Does this effectively hide my thunder?"
"Once you suffer through it, it’s all glorious beard from there." -GoET
by Bob Loblaw on Dec 24, 2010 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Really?
That move is full of win. What is she going to do, go to the cops and say “The John didn’t fucking pay me!”. Dykstra is a pimp.
"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel
ha ha
The article actually said he stiffed the hos
by BEW on Dec 24, 2010 1:13 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
twice in one night
by TheHuntforRedOctober on Dec 24, 2010 6:56 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Kirkman will likely be a starter at some point this year, hopefully someone will become a lock-down anchor on that staff. Wilson, Lewis, Kirkman, Hunter and some guys.
CJ and Lewis are pretty "lock down" pitchers at this point.
"Does this effectively hide my thunder?"
"Once you suffer through it, it’s all glorious beard from there." -GoET
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