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Greatest SS of all time

This topic got broached on the morning thread and, considering how we've entertained ourselves the last week or so, I thought this would be a good fanpost for the waning days of the offseason.  I'm not the statistical guru that philkid and some others are, so I'll open the dance and then let you guys weigh in with statistical arguments for and against the candidates.

Star-divide

A website called "The Baseball Page" has a list of the top 50 SS of all time: http://www.thebaseballpage.com/positions/rankings/SS.php.  

 

I know nothing about their methodology, but it seems like a good enough starting point.  The top 10 goes like this: 1) Alex Rodriguez, 2) Honus Wagner, 3) Barry Larkin, 4) Lou Boudreau, 5) Robin Yount, 6) Luke Appling, 7) Arky Vaughan, 8) Derek Jeter, 9) Joe Cronin, 10) Cal Ripken Jr.

 

I think the debate for #1 clearly lies between A-Rod and Honus.  A-Rod is viewed as the greatest power-hitting SS of all time, but interestingly Honus slightly edges him in OPS+.  A-Rod is tied for 39th all time at 147 (with Lance Berkman, Edgar Martinez, Willie McCovey, Mike Schmidt, and Willie Stargell.  Wagner's career OPS is 150, good enough for a 31st place tie with Charley Jones and Nap Lajoie.

 

Setting aside the adjusted OPS and looking at unadjusted numbers, Wagner had a sick offensive career, at a defense-first position in a dead-ball era.  In a 21 year career spanning 1897-1917, Wagner's career slash line is .327/.391/.466 (for an .857 OPS).  He hit 101 homers in a homer-unfriendly era, but averaged 37 doubles per season and led the league in doubles six times.  He also averaged 15 triples (three-time league leader) and stole a whopping 722 bases.  He won the batting title 8 times, led the league in OBP 4 times, and led the league in slugging (again, at a defense-first position), 6 times.

 

Rodriguez, by comparison, has a .305/.390/.576 slash line (.965 OPS) with 583 homers and 297 stolen bases.  Rodriguez has only one batting title to his credit, four slugging titles, and no OBP titles.  His doubles compare surprisingly well with Wagner (33) but has led the league only once. He has, however, averaged only 2 triples per season. 

 

As for defense, I know this is a difficult issue.  Rodriguez is viewed as a "good" defensive shortstop.  I have seen Honus' defense referred to as similar to Ozzie Smith's, perhaps better.  Whether that's legitimate or apocryphal, who knows.

 

Rodriguez's numbers come in a much more offensive-friendly era, both in terms of the ball, the parks, and the quality of pitching (i.e. the watering down from expansion).  By that same token, though, Wagner played in a segregated league which undoubtedly lessened some of his competition.

 

With that, I turn it over for the debate.  I'll put Wagner 1st, Rodriguez 2nd, and then a far gap to whoever is 3rd.

Poll
Who is the greatest SS of all time?
Honus Wagner
26 votes
Alex Rodriguez
12 votes
Cal Ripken Jr.
1 votes
Michael Young
1 votes
Barry Larkin
0 votes
Lou Boudreau
0 votes
Elvis Andrus
14 votes

54 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 18 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Comments

Display:

I could be persuaded to change any or all of this:

1. Honus Wagner
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Cal Ripken Jr.
4. Arky Vaughan
5. Ernie Banks
6. Luke Appling
7. Barry Larkin
8. Robin Yount
9. Lou Boudreau
10. Joe Cronin

Too lazy to put up arguments later, but that’s cultivated over years of looking at baseball research put forth by both statisticians and historians. Largely the intelligent people of Baseball Fever.

by philkid3 on Feb 11, 2010 2:47 PM CST reply actions  

Appling and Vaughan are on my short list of the most underrated players ever.

I imagine most people who care about baseball history give Vaughan respect, but even a lot of hardcore folks don’t seem to recognize Appling. Who, btw, would be my choice for the greatest White Sock ever.

by philkid3 on Feb 11, 2010 2:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Better than Joe Jackson?

"JD gets complete blame or credit for what happens in 2010 and I think Nolan wants it that way. JD is paid to be a real GM and needs to start performing like one." - Josey Wales

by Michael Cave on Feb 12, 2010 2:31 PM CST up reply actions  

I also have Appling higher than Jackson on my list, anyway.

I don’t give Jackson credit for the seasons he didn’t play. I do for a player who went to the military, but not for someone who got himself banned from baseball. I would put him in the Hall of Fame, and it’s great that he actually played in that series, but he’s not getting a sympathy boost from me for stupidity.

by philkid3 on Feb 12, 2010 4:18 PM CST up reply actions  

If Andrus becomes 90% of Alomar on offense. . .

. . . he’s on that list. I would imagine anywhere from just below Yount to just above Appling. Maybe even Banks.

Of course, Hanley Ramirez will be on the list by then.

by philkid3 on Feb 11, 2010 2:49 PM CST up reply actions  

MLB Network did their top 9

Can’t remember all of them but Wagner was 1 and ARod was 2.

by groundingout on Feb 11, 2010 3:39 PM CST reply actions  

I remember thinking "wow, I'm shocked by how good this list is!"

Then they randomly stuck Jeter and Vizquel in the middle ahead of clearly better players and I remembered it’s better than ESPN but it’s still got a long way to go.

by philkid3 on Feb 11, 2010 3:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Voted for Honus

Favorite is Cal.

Hope all the people who have voted for Elvis so far are joking.

meta-signature

by rlb02a on Feb 11, 2010 4:06 PM CST reply actions  

Elvis.

Seriously, Wagner is the best SS.

"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence." -- Vince Lombardi

by coolaid on Feb 11, 2010 5:53 PM CST reply actions  

I'm shocked Michael Young doesn't have a single vote yet.

Where’s the homerism people? Don’t we want to retire his jersey and put him in the HOF?

Morality you can fake. Fun you either have or you don't.

by LSJ on Feb 11, 2010 8:02 PM CST reply actions  

Who here...

or anywhere, has ever considered Michael Young to be the best shortstop of all time?

If you have a point, relay your point, otherwise don’t insult everyone’s intelligence.

by ghostofErikThompson on Feb 11, 2010 8:23 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm just being sarcastic. Kinda.

But really, if Elvis has 10 votes… it does kinda shock me not even one MY homer has shown up yet and clicked on his name.

Morality you can fake. Fun you either have or you don't.

by LSJ on Feb 11, 2010 8:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Well...

Ed has retired from participation, so, we might be running short of MY homers.

(Just kidding Ed. You’re a hero.)

by ghostofErikThompson on Feb 11, 2010 8:47 PM CST up reply actions  

yay

luke appling getting love. but i’d put him above larkin.

" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers

by gossamer on Feb 12, 2010 5:51 PM CST reply actions  

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