Evan Grant on Brandon McCarthy
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 1:45 PM CST
Email
PrintEvan Grant continues his Mysteries of the Spring series with an investigation of Brandon McCarthy. He says that McCarthy was one of the better starters on the team last year and has improved as a pitcher, but he just can't seem to stay healthy.
Grant also asks the question that I know I pondered at the time as well, why the Rangers had him throw 118 and 124 pitches in consecutive games just when he seemed to be turning a corner in terms of performance. In a system where we don't necessarily chop every starter at 100 or 110 or 120 pitches just because, McCarthy seemed like the type who you still would want to limit, particularly in back-to-back situations. I know that he had pitched a terrific game on May 24, and I'm sure that he and the club were dying to see him complete a shutout. But that is the sort of emotional decision that I don't think a pitching coach and manager can afford to make with a young pitcher who has battled so many injuries.
Grant also says that McCarthy is no better than third in a three-way competition with Derek Holland and Matt Harrison for the fifth starter job. I find that surprising.
224 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
His ideal use would be as a 5th starter, I think.
If (when) he does get hurt, you just slide a talented youngster in there, and the Rangers have about 6 of those.
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.
Yep
and skipping some starts from the 5th starter if that’s McCarthy isn;’t a horrible idea either.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I don’t think its surprising, when the other two are lefties and all three are about at the same in stuff.
TexasSummerHeat
by TexasSummerHeat on Feb 11, 2010 1:55 PM CST reply actions
Let's say McCarthy doesn't clear waivers
Do you let him go for nothing or next to nothing and start the season with one of the other two just because they’re lefties?
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 2:10 PM CST up reply actions
Nope, I put him in my
bully like Ozzie did in ’05 and have him available for spot starts.
I don’t count on him holding up for 30 starts in The Show.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
What do you do with Nippert then?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
That's my problem (and I agree with Z as well)
I say put him in the rotation until he breaks, sucks or succeeds. If he shows he’s healthy and decent he’s either a valuable part of the rotation or trade bait.
"You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
Then he grounded out weakly to second.
Yep
When healthy hes been pretty good its just the uncertainty of his health. You let him pitch until he breaks and then bring in someone else
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
I don’t have a big problem with that in a vacuum (though you’ll probably have to dump someone you’d rather not from the bullpen if you do that), and I can’t imagine that anyone counts on him for 30ish starts, but if he’s healthy to start the year, I don’t see a problem with starting him in the rotation. He was better than Harrison last year and managed more innings anyway. If Holland is clearly the superior pitcher, okay. But if there isn’t much of a difference (and I don’t see how we can assume that there will be as of March ‘10), Holland will get his chance, and there is every chance that they wouldn’t even make it out of April before they need him. Giving him a slow run-up to a long season seems to offer a little better peripheral situation than having your 6th starter in the pen and needing to be stretched out. Having five RH starters in early April is just not that big of a big deal to me. It will sort itself out soon enough.
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
He can be quite good, but he's fragile.
Holland, Feliz, and CJ with Perez breathing down their necks all have higher ceilings than McCarthy (arguable I guess, but I think this is the consensus). Hunter has LAIE on lock. What is McCarthy’s role going forward? I say trade bait/insurance. If he is trade bait, he needs to be in the line-up. I see him as depth for the rotation. He does it by being #5. Unless he traded in ST, the FO will have him on the 25. He needs to prove himself healthy and effective to be tradeable. This seems the only real solution.
Your 2009 Snow Monkey Ambassador
The often mis-applied big brain of Bill James has
BMac at a 4.11 ERA over 162 IP/26 starts in ’10. CHONE 4.74 95/19.
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.
No, revocable
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Revocable
but my scenario is, it’s the end of ST, you send him through waivers, and he’s claimed. Then what?
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 2:29 PM CST up reply actions
You pull him back and try to work out a trade.
If he’s on waivers, he either (1) had a really bad spring or (2) one of Holland or Harrison has advanced a great deal this offseason.
In the case of (1), maybe the Rangers can get a Crash Davis in return. In the case of (2), the return could have a decent amount of upside.
But, let’s say JD had feelers out and no inkling of a trade had returned. If he really believes that McCarthy is not good enough to be in the rotation, he should be true to his organization’s assessment and let him go.
I have a hard time believing they would not be able to get at least Crash Davis in return, even with a bad spring.
I’m not a fan of pushing BMac to the bullpen, except in the circumstance that a delivery flaw had been detected and he needed time to work on it. In that case, they could hide him as the long man while working on the flaw, then slip him in to the rotation as an injury replacement as a trial. I think this possibility is so small it hardly deserves mention. I only mention it to be complete.
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
Hmm
I’m not nearly as optimistic that they could get a high quality return. Maybe so, but if that were an appealing option to the club I have to think that they would have exercised it already in the offseason without putting themselves in the weakened bargaining position.
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
the offseason isn't over yet
and other clubs might be in weakened positions by the time march rolls around and they start penciling in starting rotations
I don't think of Crash Davis as high quality return.
I might agree on (2), though. If they have any inkling that, right now, Holland or Harrison has surpassed McCarthy, JD is taking a risk by not finding the best deal at the moment.
The flip side of that is what ‘ab03’ said, which is a higher value deal might emerge as ST injuries mount.
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
I think Davis is not a great example because his value is hard to pin down. And my gut says that the plan isn’t and hasn’t been to trade McCarthy before the season starts.
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 2:53 PM CST up reply actions
Rumors were they could've traded him for Cantu.
So, you’re gut is probably on to something.
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
I've got to quit scrolling down past the articles in the DMN to read the comments.
But it’s like a train wreck. I just can’t stop.
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch" -Gdawg
"i feel like k-rod after a save." -by reagan on Jan 23, 2010, that glorious day Hicks was out of our lives.
x
Posted by Sundberg Fan @ 10:09 AM Thu, Feb 11, 2010
He fits in the passenger seat on a bus out of town. You can manipulate stats anyway you want. However, unless Nolan turns this tall, lanky pitcher into Randy Johnson due to a one on one teaching session, and does so immediately, McCarthy needs his bus ticket stamped via a trade.
So unless McCarthy becomes Randy Johnson the Rangers need to get rid of him? If we are going to use Johnson as a measuring stick I would imagine we are going to have a pretty small pitching staff next year.
by GregoryM on Feb 11, 2010 2:10 PM CST up reply actions
conveniently forgetting
just how long it took Randy Johnson to figure things out.
Freude, schoener Goetterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische dein Heiligtum.
Randy Johnson
Yeah, when he was McCarthy’s age, he’d only pitched 186 major-league innings, and had just come off his first full season. He was a slightly above league-average pitcher from 26 to 29, when he got really good.
McCarthy has a little over 370 major-league innings, and has been right around league-average for his career.
I know he’s been underwhelming as a Ranger, but pitchers who throw 170-plus innings at age 20, win 17 games, and strike out 200 batters while walking just 30 (even if it was in the minors) don’t exactly grow on trees. There’s still a lot of potential there.
"Jesus, Spanish- first our jobs, now our words?"
-- Sterling Archer
Grant also says that McCarthy is no better than third in a three-way competition with Derek Holland and Matt Harrison for the fifth starter job. I find that surprising.
Maybe I’m not remembering correctly, but didn’t Wash say McCarthy had the “inside track” on a rotation spot?
I think so. Grant's statement seems to be an inference based on two things:
(1) the other candidates are younger
(2) the other candidates are left handed.
Nothing new there. There’s no reason to think Grant’s opinion reflects that of the organization.
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
i can't imagine grant is correct about mccarthy being third
the options thing is a really big deal
if you are worried about him being injury prone, I don’t see the big deal in letting him pitch till he gets injured.
if you are worried about blocking someone, someone if not mccarthy, will get injured and people will get their spots
if you are worried about mccarthy sucking, it is a somewhat valid concern but he did seem like he was pitching with more confidence his last few starts. anyway, you should be able to figure out in spring training if his velo is there or if he’s willing to stick with the curve
Yep, McCarthy is as sure to begin the season in the rotation as Benson was last year.
Reason? Available options.
I'd let him pitch until he gets hurt
or until he starts to suck. I’ve never thought he was a bad pitcher but I’ve never seen anything that made me think he’ll be really good, either. Worth hanging onto for now, sure.
by Black Francis on Feb 11, 2010 3:45 PM CST up reply actions
Let him figure it out in Triple A
It seems to be everybody’s thinking that we have a lot of younger higher ceiling kids. Let them get their shot first cause I havent seen BMac do anything but prove he cant be depended on
Hes been dependable to be pretty good when hes healthy
His health is the only thing thats undependable about him. Because of that let him pitch in the majors and when/if he gets hurt you bring in the unpredictable performance of Holland
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
FWIW
CHONE gives Harrison and Holland both better xFIPs in ’09 than McCarthy this year.
And worse tERAs, so. . . I dunno. I’m gonna hit the post button now.
so. . . I dunno. I’m gonna hit the post button now.
Haha. I do that a lot:
“Here’s some information, I’m not sure what it says, or how you should take it but… ah fuck it.. post”
IMO, the better pitcher breaking camp wins the #5 job solely on performance.
I think that will be Holland.
I don’t want to see the better pitcher stuck in AAA just because he has options while the lesser pitcher takes up room just because he no options left.
by TooLegitToQuit on Feb 11, 2010 2:40 PM CST via mobile reply actions
How many innings do you think Holland
should/will throw in 2010?
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
How many starts do you expect
him to require to get those innings?
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 2:53 PM CST up reply actions
He started 21 games last year..
I would say 25-30.
by TooLegitToQuit on Feb 11, 2010 2:57 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Then what is wrong with
a few of those coming at AAA in April with fewer innings, a lower stress level, and the opportunity to work on his pitches, and then a good 25 at the major league level?
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 3:04 PM CST up reply actions
I just want the better pitcher breaking camp.
That’s all.
by TooLegitToQuit on Feb 11, 2010 3:18 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
My hang-up in this
and I’m sure it’s obvious, but I just don’t see why the five that they start with is the be all end all. I think that they stand a better chance of getting 162 good starts by playing their cards close to their vest, and that could mean making your “opening day” number five starter a guy with roughly the same expectations but a lower upside, for a variety of reasons. History tells us that it’s more likely that it’s a matter of days before the Rangers go to their number six than a matter of months. And they control the situation. If McCarthy is underwhelming after 3-4 starts, the other four are healthy and rolling, and Holland is looking like he’d be lights out in the majors, they can certainly pull the plug then. And that’s the absolute worst case scenario for going with McCarthy.
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 3:34 PM CST up reply actions
History's a bitch, and I wish she'd shut up already,
but ignoring her is almost always a Very Bad Idea, and I tend to agree with all of the points here.
Are we
talking about history, or my wife?
"My expectations today are that we're going to be extremely competitive and if we don't win our division, I'll be disappointed." Nolan Ryan
I already told her.
I just now woke up….
"My expectations today are that we're going to be extremely competitive and if we don't win our division, I'll be disappointed." Nolan Ryan
I know that's the way a lot of people do it, but I hate putting that much emphasis on essentially a bunch of practices.
Look at the track record and what you expect them to do, and use Spring Training to see if there are any concerns to change that. In this isntance: can McCarthy maintain the velocity he needs.
I think Harrison's going to surprise people at Spring Training
and win the job. McCarthy get’s traded or moved to the bullpen and Holland starts the year at AAA to refine his stuff and build confidence. My guess is that Harrison has figured some stuff out while rehabbing over the winter and will look much sharper than the other guys. He also has the added benefit of being left-handed.
Surprise people at Spring Training with what?
A straight fastball, meh slider, bleh change?
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Feb 11, 2010 3:30 PM CST up reply actions
It won't
that’s what he’s always had and his stuff hasn’t changed so I don’t get what MikeEl is dreaming about.
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Feb 11, 2010 3:35 PM CST up reply actions
There was a while there last season when Harrison looked pretty dominant
I think he’s figured out how to get back to pitching that way.
go look at his game logs
and look at
1) how long that stretch was
2) his peripherals from that stretch.
It will most likely disappoint you. But maybe some pitch f/x data will cheer you up.
We'll see what happens.
If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. Just thinks the timings about right for him to have figured things out.
McCarthy
The fifth spot is his to lose. Can’t imagine he would pass through waivers, and I doubt JD would be inclined to sell low on him and risk watching him succeed somewhere else.
JD has said that starting pitching depth is a priority. Dumping McCarthy would run contrary to what he has said all offseason.
by Randy Richardson on Feb 11, 2010 2:42 PM CST reply actions
I wouldn't lose any sleep watching McCarthy succeed somewhere else.
We have enough depth where his would-be replacement would give us equal or greater value.
by TooLegitToQuit on Feb 11, 2010 2:44 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
You're confident about that?
How about the eighth best starter in the organization? Get rid of McCarthy, see two starters go out (which shouldn’t surprise anyone), and that guy is still as good or better than McCarthy?
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 2:46 PM CST up reply actions
x
1. Harden
Feldman
Lewis
Hunter
Holland
Feliz
Harrison
8. Moscoso
9. Mendoza
10. Scheppers
11. Kiker
12. Perez
I can’t buy that McCarthy and Moscoso are equivalent.
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
I don’t see how you guys can count Feliz. If they are in a position on May 9 where they need two starters, they aren’t going to put Feliz in the rotation.
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 2:57 PM CST up reply actions
Really? If two starters went down for the season they wouldn't throw Feliz into the fire?
So, are you saying that Feliz should be, maybe, 8th?
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
I think he means not directly from the pen
They will be careful with him and send him down to stretch him out. Thats probably a month long process. So if a guy goes down on May 9th you are probably looking at June 1st before Feliz jumps into the rotation
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
I don't know..
If most of his outings are of the 2 inning variety, like last year, then I could see him going straight to the rotation, with a couple of 4-5 innings starts to break him in. I don’t think I would have a problem with it.
Couldn't they handle him like Holland last year?
That’s what I’ve been hoping for. Maybe with some more leverage.
Holland last year
Only had 4 outtings under 1.2 innings and would mostly come in in the 6th or 7th innings of blowouts. I don’t think the Rangers want to use Feliz like that. I think they would rather him start games in AAA rather than be a mop up guy in the majors
If hes in the bullpen hes gonna be used as a late inning firefighter. Once they want to make him a starter they will most likely send him down for a month or so and bring him back up
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
I think that's asking for trouble
For one thing, I don’t think that what they did with Holland was that great of an idea, and I heard Ryan say that it didn’t go 100% to plan as was. For another, Feliz threw 108 innings last year. The last thing I want to do with him is up that significantly while making him do bullpen to rotation transitions in the majors. Ask guys who have done it. It’s hard on you. Call up or email Mike Bacsik and ask him if it’s something he recommends doing to an important arm.
Also, what bigsteve said.
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 3:23 PM CST up reply actions
You're going to give Feliz
26 or so starts this year?
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 3:01 PM CST up reply actions
I think they'd shut him down early or something
you’re making it sound like there is no way feliz wins a starting job out of spring training. I don’t think that is true
So you don't want Feliz pitching in September while we are possibly fighting for a division title?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
games in september have the same value has games in april
playoff games are a different story, but the only way he gets into playoff games is if he is in the bullphen throughout the season.
might happen, but in a world where we are 2 starters down (or three since mccarthy is gone either by trade or injury or something), I don’t see why you wouldn’t go to feliz
True
But I think our depth is enough to get us to September where we could use Feliz as an impact addition to the rotation rather than losing an impact player by replacing Feliz with say….Eric Hurley or someone like that
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Okay
that is a little different argument than I thought you were making. I’ll just say that I think that it is very unlikely that they give Feliz a rotation spot to start the season or very early on in the season. I think they view this like the Yankees did Joba, where they’re more interested in his potential to start a game in September for them than April.
Of course I didn’t really expect Holland to be called up after one start in AAA last season either.
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 3:08 PM CST up reply actions
you could also look at it like this
to answer the original question, feliz should still be included in teh discussion even if you don’t think feliz will start games in may. Let’s say it takes him a month to get stretched out. Then the correct appraisal of McCarthy’s replacement would still include Feliz, but just half of Feliz, maybe paired with a month of Moscoso.
The whole basis of this debate
is that it’s necessary to get rid of McCarthy right off the bat because they’re so deep. Your answer to my (in my opinion very realistic) scenario pulls two of the three best relievers on the team and start Moscoso for a month. I know you weren’t really arguing the initial point, but when this is reframed, doesn’t it seem silly to ditch McCarthy when you’re not far away from having to go to those lengths? If not, I guess we just have to disagree on it. I don’t want Guillermo Moscoso in my rotation for May.
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 3:18 PM CST up reply actions
I agree with the Moscoso part.
All I can know about this is that JD said he was breaking ST with the 5 BEST pitchers in the rotation. Do we interpret that as he doesn’t care about options, or relievers turning into starters etc.? Or do we say he does exactly what he says and sends the best 5 pitchers out there no matter what?
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch" -Gdawg
"i feel like k-rod after a save." -by reagan on Jan 23, 2010, that glorious day Hicks was out of our lives.
He also said that last year
when Benson was in the rotation. He cares about options and developing and caring for young pitchers properly, bet on that.
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 3:25 PM CST up reply actions
Good. I like that bet.
That’s why I asked because I’m not sure what JD really does as opposed to what he says in situations like this. I’m not a JD history buff yet.
I was hoping JD was only saying this so that the guys who are 7-10 on the SP depth chart don’t giving up hope and not work hard in ST.
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch" -Gdawg
"i feel like k-rod after a save." -by reagan on Jan 23, 2010, that glorious day Hicks was out of our lives.
yeah
i guess the thing i was arguing is that if we were 2 starters down (regardless of whether it is BMac), don’t you put Feliz in there as quick as possible, factoring in time for him to get stretched out if necessary?
We're probably only arguing margins at that point
Since about last August the back of my mind has had him completing the transition around mid-June to July, so in my ideal, conservative world, I would prefer to hold back just a little longer. But if that scenario plays out at least a month into the season, I think you’re likely right that their first reaction is to start to get Feliz ready, I hope by sending him down. I suppose I wouldn’t scream if it’s the start of June that they move him in.
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 3:39 PM CST up reply actions
Feliz in the pen until June 1st
at which time he sent down to stretch out until after the ASB. Assuming Scheppers has owned at AA and AAA. He gets a call up to replace Feliz in the pen. Scheppers gets the Feliz treatment, and becomes a cog in the playoff bully.
Your 2009 Snow Monkey Ambassador
by Parman on Feb 11, 2010 6:51 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Depends on how they've been using Feliz in the bullpen
If they’ve been throwing him out there for a couple of innings every 3-4 days, he might be in better shape to start than a lot of the other guys.
Hurley too.
He should be ready at some point around May or June too right? Who knows the Dozer might even finally live up to his promise if he’s still around on the roster by then.
Hurley
Ready doesn’t necessarily mean ready to be a major league starter. Not only does he have to get himself physically ready to be a starting pitcher, he has to recover what he had in terms of mechanics, stuff and command. There are exceptions, but that usually takes a while. I look at him as a pleasant surprise if he impacts the major league team this year.
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 3:49 PM CST up reply actions
there is reason to think it is possible
but no reason to think it is likely.
harden, feldman, lewis, holland, hunter, feliz….then wilson or nippert. There is a chance that either of those two could be better, though I would not bet money on that
If CJ isn't a starter at the end of spring he won't be one during the season
This isn’t a video game where guys have stamina bars and can go from 1 inning bullpeners to 6 inning starters overnight. Feliz will need probably 3-4 weeks in the minors to stretch back out once we make the decision to make him a starter again.
The starting pitching depth probably looks like this right now (minus the 3 locks)
Hunter, McCarthy, Holland, Nippert, Harrison, Hurley, Poveda
Once we decide to move Feliz back to the rotation and hes stretched out he jumps to the front of the order but thats probably how 4-10 looks right now
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
The Rangers would not do it with Feliz.
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 3:02 PM CST up reply actions
You want Feliz to follow Lirianos career path?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Too many other options (and options) so that's not necessary for the Rangers
"You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
Then he grounded out weakly to second.
Forgot about him
He probably goes in between Harrison and Hurley
Although as it looks right now he may be relegated to a bullpen role in OKC which may remove him from starting pitcher consideration. If the OKC rotation is Holland, Harrison, Kiker, Poveda, Hurley (after May 1st when he reports most likely) then Moscoso probably goes to the pen because AA is stacked also
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
I think two of the opening five starters being out simultaneously relatively early in the season (first half at least) is altogether possible, almost likely.
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
What about the Maddux effect?
McCarthy looked pretty decent when healthy last year and I remember everyone talking about how his delivery has changed. Perhaps some more work with Maddux and things could gets straightened out. This isn’t statistical by any means, just some rambling.
"You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
Then he grounded out weakly to second.
BigSteve Math Alert!!
Since coming to Texas 3 years ago Brandon McCarthy has a 4.68 ERA in 221 innings. 3 starts in April of 2007 is the cause for 0.62 of that. Thats right that 3 starts stretch where he gave up a combined 18 runs in 6 innings takes his ERA with Texas from 4.06 to 4.68.
Just a thought when contemplating who our #5 starter should be and if we should expose BMac to waivers
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
the other big thing is 221 IP in 3 years
I just don’t see the point in jettisoning a guy who is good but has injury issues. just wait it out until he gets injured and enjoy the excellent production while it lasts
Lets also see if he can stay healthy with his new mechanics
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Feb 11, 2010 3:16 PM CST up reply actions
Remember
He got ride of his Mark Prior copied mechanics before he came back at the end of last year.
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Feb 11, 2010 3:33 PM CST up reply actions
i was a little MIA at the end of last year
those aren’t great stats. I wonder if he gets better with the new mechanics or just goes back to old habits after a few bad starts (which is what he did last year, right – going back to the curve?)
I think you obviously have to keep BMac as long as possible
but more important than this is the fact that we’re fighting because there are too many starting options. When was the last time we said “what if two starters go down by May 9th?” Usually, we’re worried about who the 4th guy in the rotation is going to be starting off; grateful that a 5th starter isn’t needed until mid-April.
Go Rice Owls!
Amen, brother
In past years we were praying for health and scouring other teams rosters trying to figure out who might be cut or available for trade due to a roster squeeze. This discussion is much more fun than that one.
Breaking News!
We have just learned that Micheal Jack… uh, Ian Kinsler has been told he is batting 5th.
At least, that is what he said a little bit ago on the Ticket.
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.
Good
So I take it that makes the order look something like this
Borbon
Young
Hamilton
Vlad
Kins
Davis
Cruz
Salty
Elvis
I like it
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Cruz in the 7 hole would be a nice thing to have
"Drinks are on me if Lewis posts >168IP and an era lower than 3.86." by RangerMad on Jan 20, 2010 12:36 PM PST
Geez. Anyone else in the major have their last year leading HR hitter batting 7th?
Anyone, anyone? Bueller?
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch" -Gdawg
"i feel like k-rod after a save." -by reagan on Jan 23, 2010, that glorious day Hicks was out of our lives.
I'd say it's a good problem to have.
Also that’s just to start the season. Things will change depending upon how the rest of the lineup hits. If Davis is back to form then it makes sense to have him where he is to break up the string of righties.
Agree.
The lineup has to be a living entity. There will also be an eye on how Borbon hits lefties as well as Vlad and Hamilton’s health.
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch" -Gdawg
"i feel like k-rod after a save." -by reagan on Jan 23, 2010, that glorious day Hicks was out of our lives.
yep
would not be surprised to see Wash move Nelly from 5 to 7 often, especially early in the season
"Drinks are on me if Lewis posts >168IP and an era lower than 3.86." by RangerMad on Jan 20, 2010 12:36 PM PST
Certainly. Murphy won't break the 7 hole with these guys in the lineup.
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch" -Gdawg
"i feel like k-rod after a save." -by reagan on Jan 23, 2010, that glorious day Hicks was out of our lives.
That is exactly what Ian said
Except he said “Catcher position”…odd. Maybe he had CD & Cruz flipped, not for sure.
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.
I still think Kinsler would be better off
following Borbon in the 2 hole, then bump the rest of the lineup back. That way you’ve got lots of speed grouped together in Andrus, Borbon and Kinsler.
Why do you need the speed grouped together?
Speed is best served in front of weaker hitters who struggle with advancing base runners. It’s not very important anywhere, but that’s the area where it’s the biggest perk.
Well, say you have Kinsler batting after Vlad.
Everytime Vlad gets on base ahead of Kinsler, he’s going to prevent him from taking that extra base. That somewhat handicap’s his speed.
That's not really a big deal.
Except for fantasy leagues with SB numbers.
The ability to steal bases is most valuable in front of weaker hitters, and putting your hitters in the most productive order is more important than trying to have stolen base opportunities.
I'm not just talking about stealing bases
I’m talking about taking the extra base anytime the ball is hit. Only being able to go from 1st to 2nd on a base hit because Vlad’s stuck at 3rd, or not advancing on a sac fly. Stuff like that adds up.
And I'm saying the order is not correct or incorrect because of his speed.
Who does a better job of setting up and who does a better job of advancing is what matters.
Nope.
Kinsler refuted that too, saying that Vlad was actually pretty fast 1st to 3rd, just that is looks painful to see him run.
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.
The man did steal 40 bases one year.
He’s no burner, but I seriously, seriously doubt Vlad being in front of Kinsler impacts us because of the base running to any significant degree.
Again, meh. Orders don't matter much, and this one is fine.
But I’d prefer (going in to the season):
Borbon
Young
Cruz
Vlad
Hamilton
Kins
Davis
Salty
Elvis
I could change it if players hit better in the season. I could also switch Cruz and Hamilton if Hamilton or someone on the team throws a bitch fit. Or if I can be convinced that we’re getting ’08 Hamilton.
I'd be afraid...
…that would encourage Hamilton back into HR mode.
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
by GhettoBear04 on Feb 12, 2010 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
You mean Kinsler?
Cause swinging for the fences wasn’t really Hamilton’s problem last year.
Swinging at nearly everything thrown at him like an ADD little-leaguer was his problem.
Morality you can fake. Fun you either have or you don't.
That's fine.
I’d prefer him at the bottom of people who can hit, though, to steal himself some bases in front of people who can’t. That means, like, switching he and Cruz.
Whatever.
I can't add anything you all haven't dissected. BMac makes sense, but I hope Dutch takes the spot.
I’ll just say it’s a great problem to have, all these arms and not enough spots.
New, fun times in Rangertown.
"Drinks are on me if Lewis posts >168IP and an era lower than 3.86." by RangerMad on Jan 20, 2010 12:36 PM PST
you know
i feel like every 2 years for the last 10 (sometimes more often), we get a local media article talking about how it is nice having all this pitching depth and not enough rotation spots. I feel like there are multiple instances in Rangers history, especially in the offseason, where it looks like we have too much pitching. During the season, this would happen if 5 starters had a good go round the rotation and a sixth is coming back from injury.
I know this year we should expect it to be different, but I think I’d rather wait until at least April 1st to declare we have enough pitching depth.
well you go ahead and wait then. this bandwagon's leaving the station early.
"Drinks are on me if Lewis posts >168IP and an era lower than 3.86." by RangerMad on Jan 20, 2010 12:36 PM PST
Anyone think Lincecum will go to arbitration?
I’m really hoping they sign him instead of letting the arby happen.
The only reason I’m watching this is because I envision the Rangers going through this same kind of dillema with Feliz and Perez in the near future. : )
"grilled cheese punches like a bitch" -Gdawg
"i feel like k-rod after a save." -by reagan on Jan 23, 2010, that glorious day Hicks was out of our lives.
What I don't understand is why the Giants aren't trying to buy out all 4 of his arbitration years instead of only 3
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
I would think if he wins it would go something like 13, 15, 18, 20
Thats just in arbitration. Wow
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
OT: Beyond the Boxscore's Ball on a Budget League
I’m doing it again this year, and I’ve already set up my draft board with my first 12 choices in order.
Curious to see if anyone can guess who I’ve got on that list.
(For anyone that doesn’t remember, it’s a fantasy draft using real contracts with a 60 million dollar cap, basically).
My first instinct was Lincecum
but given the arbitration situation, I don’t know.
I would guess you would have plenty of guys with <3 years of service time at the top, right?
meta-signature
To help out with the league, I'm putting together the Rangers' contracts and position eligibility.
Did you know that Brandon Boggs has a 10K bonus in his contract for being the MVP?
Check that: the ALCS MVP.
um
Holland over McCarthy
Personally, I have no problem using Holland over McCarthy, even if that means that McCarthy is traded. Obviously, you want to have as much pitching depth as possible. Last season, the Rangers used ten starting pitchers (although two of those ten only made two starts each- Benson and Mathis). So in total, eight different pitchers saw substantial time in the rotation. Without McCarthy, this team’s 6th, 7th, and 8th starters are probably Harrison, Moscoso, and Nippert. Beyond that, I’d imagine Feliz will see time in the rotation at some point.
CHONE and Marcel project the trio of Harrison, Moscoso and Nippert to be roughly on par with McCarthy in production next season.
McCarthy: 4.63 FIP (CHONE), 4.73 FIP (Marcel) = 4.68 FIP (Average)
Nippert: 4.28 FIP (CHONE), 4.52 FIP (Marcel) = 4.40 FIP (Average)
Harrison: 4.99 FIP (CHONE), 4.91 FIP (Marcel) = 4.95 FIP (Average)
Moscoso: 4.38 FIP (CHONE), 4.48 FIP (Marcel) = 4.43 FIP (Average)
I agree that depth is important. But I would argue that McCarthy gives you a negligible upgrade over Harrison, Moscoso and Nippert. Plus, when Feliz is eventually given a shot in the rotation at some point, he will likely be better than McCarthy. Even if the Rangers trade McCarthy, the likes of Harrison, Moscoso, Nippert, and Feliz would be the 6th through 9th starters on the depth charts. And the likelihood of the team using more than 9 starters pretty low.
So if Holland looks like the better pitcher in Spring Training, then I’d say he should get the job. The team would still have ample rotational depth, most of which is comparable to (or better than) McCarthy. And if Holland looks like he has taken a step forward, then I think the overall wins added by giving Holland 30 starts (as opposed to say 15-20) is greater than the wins added through having a 10th starting pitcher in the depth charts.
Nippert and Moscosos FIPs I am leery of
Nipperts because he was so much better as a reliever than as a starter last year. I don’t think his FIP as a starter would be that low
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Damn hit reply too soon
And Moscoso because we have little to go on for how he will translate to the majors. He had little ML time last year and it was generally in mop up duty which can be misleading to stats.
Also BMac has been a pretty damn good pitcher for us since coming here regardless of what FIP tells you. He is exactly the kind of guy who if we traded or released we would hear people bitch about letting go for years to come
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Good points, but...
I would also be concerned about McCarthy’s drop in velocity after he changed his delivery. And I think we have had a reasonable amount of time to judge McCarthy’s abilities since he arrived in Texas. His FIP over the last three years have been 4.73, 5.22, 4.70. I think it is pretty reasonable to expect an FIP around 4.70 or higher next season from McCarthy, given his track record. And I am still not convinced that such production cannot be replicated by the likes of Harrison, Moscoso, Nippert, Feliz, etc, even given some of their inherent risks.
So I think the fears over losing a potential star, or the concerns over depth are a little too strong. I really believe the front office will end up giving the #5 spot to the pitcher who looks to be ready to help the team the most during Spring Training. If that is McCarthy, great. If not, then I think this team has enough quality depth to risk losing McCarthy.
by Stephen Rushin on Feb 11, 2010 4:26 PM CST up reply actions
Heres where the argument for expected vs actual lies
As I pointed out above we are a horrific 3 start stretch from McCarthy being a sub 4.10 ERA pitcher while with Texas.
I don’t want to risk losing that kind of pitcher over a few lousy spring training starts
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
But I would argue that McCarthy gives you a negligible upgrade over Harrison, Moscoso and Nippert.
That’s where I think the biggest disagreement on this lies. Those projected FIPs for Nippert and Moscoso would never stand over a lot of starts. Moscoso’s nice stretch in AAA as a starter skews his to me, but I guess that’s all unprovable and certainly fair to debate at this point. If we were going to lean on these projections, Hunter is the one we should be sending down. CHONE likes both Moscoso and McCarthy better.
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
No, but we're talking about them relative to each other
They go so far as to easily suggest that Moscoso would be a better starter for the Rangers than Hunter this season over, say, 20-28 starts, and I disagree with that. ZiPS, for example, thinks Moscoso will be far better than Hunter, Holland, Millwood, McCarthy, etc. and darn near as good as Feldman.
And unless you’re willing to agree with them on that, I don’t know that you can turn around and use them as primary support for the notion that he’s as good as McCarthy.
by Brett Perryman on Feb 11, 2010 5:19 PM CST up reply actions
ZiPS doesn't have a terrific track record, fwiw.
Maybe it’s worth looking at as part of a puzzle, but I don’t.
+1
Yeah, which is why Marcel, CHONE, and Pecota are probably better tools.
by Stephen Rushin on Feb 11, 2010 6:26 PM CST up reply actions
Man, you guys are a tough crowd! ZiPS (and CHONE) beat PECOTA in all of Tango’s challenges and tests for two years now (and in another evaluation at http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/article/evaluating_the_2009_forecasts_chone_zips_fantastics_win/).
--
Dan Szymborski
dan@baseballprimer.com
by D.Szymborski on Feb 11, 2010 8:05 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, it's been well discussed here that PECOTA in '09 was less than awesome.
Or more like the opposite of awesome.
Those CHONE and Marcel Projections aren’t going out on a limb with their predictions. I’d argue that McCarthy is not that good, and Harrison/Moscoso/Nippert are a little better than people around here normally recognize.
McCarthy posted a 4.70 FIP last season and next season those systems project a 4.68 FIP.
Nippert posted a 4.27 FIP last season, and next season those systems project a 4.40 FIP.
Harrison posted a 5.05 FIP last season, and next season those systems project a 4.95 FIP.
Moscoso posted a 2.80 FIP at AAA, and a 3.81 in limited time in the bigs, and those systems project a 4.43 FIP in the majors next season.
All in all, those projections look pretty on par with the players recent performances. I think a lot of people overvalue McCarthy. He simply isn’t that good. He is a #4/5 caliber starter whose stuff has regressed. He has lost velocity on his FB and has had to completely change his delivery. I just don’t see McCarthy, at this point in his career, having a higher upside than any of the other three guys listed above.
As for Hunter, I think that he is penciled into the rotation right now because he posted a 4.40 FIP in the bigs last season at age 22/23. There is a pretty good chance that he will regress a bit next season, but I think the fact he added a couple new pitches (cutter and change) over the last year separates him from the group of McCarthy/Moscoso/Harrison/Nippert. His performance before he added those pitches is less meaningful, thus meaning I would give less weight to those projection systems. The same goes for Feldman. So, I’m tempted to give Feldman and Hunter the benefit of the doubt that the improvement they showed was the result of a new repertoire, not a fluke.
But McCarthy hasn’t shown any substantial improvement, and I fail to see how he can be meaningfully distinguished from Harrison/Moscoso/Nippert going forward.
by Stephen Rushin on Feb 11, 2010 6:24 PM CST up reply actions
i agree with z on this entire issue
but you’ve really made me think and brought a lot of good points to the discussion. I thank you for that.
by BrentTaylor21 on Feb 11, 2010 6:33 PM CST up reply actions
I think I'm the other way around.
I agree with Stephen and Z has given me some good points to consider. Rushin has, as well, but he doesn’t have to convince me, Z does. And he’s not doing a bad job of it.
Somebody call Ed
and tell him this blog is back!
by BrentTaylor21 on Feb 11, 2010 6:44 PM CST up reply actions
Is that really a category?
I’m too scared to google it myself…
by Mike the Grate on Feb 11, 2010 8:28 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know if brazilian fart porn was a category before today.
But, as of today, Google will believe there is brazilian fart porn.
Thankfully there were no videos
because the description is basically something I wish I could un-read.
by Mike the Grate on Feb 11, 2010 8:41 PM CST up reply actions
You just had to.
Didn’t click it, but I doubt that’s anywhere near safe for work. Hell, it’s probably not safe for home.
A redtube link...
Yeah, theres no way that’s SFW.
Morality you can fake. Fun you either have or you don't.
It looked like a fleshy
Parrot beak.
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"When you have a weapon on your shoulder like he has, you can be cool." RW on Perez
And the little bastard threw it for a swinging strike three in a 3-2 count. He’s blessed. And ballsy.
My question is: why is it Brazilian?
I’d have thought the Irish would be better suited for it…
Morality you can fake. Fun you either have or you don't.
I really hope the Rangers don't use projection systems to make their decision
I’ll go ahead and give projection systems credit for doing a decent job at predicting how established players will perform. But when you’re talking about rookies, near rookies, and guys who have constantly had injury problems, you’re probably just as likely better off predicting league average stats for all of them than using a these analyses.
BMac is a classic two possible outcome player. He’ll either be healthy and a solid rotation option; or he’ll be injured and on and off the roster for 3 months until he finally lands on the 60. If the former, he’ll easily outperform those CHONE and Marcel numbers. If the latter, he’ll be released or stashed on the 60 (again). Simply drawing regression lines through a few years of spotty data just does not give strong predictive power.
Go Rice Owls!
"you’re probably just as likely better off predicting league average stats for all of them than using a these analyses."
Would you care to support or disprove that?
Question. Were the Sox on to anything when they made him a relief pitcher?
I mean, if you could increase to probability of him not getting injured by throwing him in the bullpen, wouldn’t you just finally bite the bullet and try to finally get some value out of him?
And health aside, McCarthy got progressively worse as his pitch count got bigger last year. Maybe an aberration, maybe not. We do know McCarthy had better velocity as a reliever on the Sox.
I think I rather take a chance with CJ as a starter over McCarthy.
Seems to me they are not wanting to take the hit and get it over with...
Johnny Danks isn’t coming back…I’d like to see us salvage what we can of him in the pen.
by slimshadty12 on Feb 11, 2010 10:09 PM CST up reply actions
The Danks deal is a Sunk Cost
Must move on. He is a starter. He has the command and control of several pitches. Velo is down a tick, but he still misses bats. I seem to remember having this discussion last year or there was a story about McCarthy being a slow guy to warm up. Therefore, he isn’t well suited to the rigors of the pen. Could be faulty memory.
Your 2009 Snow Monkey Ambassador
The White Sox made him a reliever because they had 5 veteran starters already in the rotation
And McCarthy had come up the previous season as a 21 year old and done really well. They didn’t see the need to send him down because he would most likely not get much if any ML time (which he wouldn’t because all 5 starters ended up starting 30 games).
They didn’t change him to the pen to stay long term
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
OT - so I was listening to ESPN Radio in the car last night
The Brian Kenny show. They were discussing who was the best QB in history but the host, callers, everyone was using the word “sabermetrics” in every other sentence. The Society for American Baseball Research. God it was enraging. That was the closest I ever came to calling in to one of those shows.
"You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
Then he grounded out weakly to second.
I know - I'm still thinking about emailing as soon as I make sure who f'd it up
It’s like saying psychiatry when you mean psychology. Yeah, it’s similar stuff but not really. No one says the Saints scored 31 runs or that the Cubs put up 8 points.
"You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
Then he grounded out weakly to second.
Brain Kenny
He is a sabermetrics guys. He knows his shits. Surprising that he works for ESPN.
"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence." -- Vince Lombardi
my problem is hes saying sabermetrics talking football
Its wrong. Simple as that. The term sabermetrics doesn’t apply to it.
"You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
Then he grounded out weakly to second.
by WyoRanger on Feb 11, 2010 8:01 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I listened to his
podcast a few times when he was working with Max Kellerman a while back and they both had a very good grasp of stats as far as MLB.
I haven’t heard the term sabermetrics every associated with Football, so you are probably correct.
"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence." -- Vince Lombardi
There are actually quite a lot of guys at ESPN that have interests in sabermetrics. I mean writers like Law and Neyer are obvious, but there are a lot of people like Stark and Crasnick that, while not statheads, are very curious about some of the things that statnerds do and in my experience, extremely respectful even of things they may think to be completely crazy.
--
Dan Szymborski
dan@baseballprimer.com
by D.Szymborski on Feb 11, 2010 8:13 PM CST up reply actions
I am a fan of Keith Law's work
but I don’t really pay much attention to the other guys. But they don’t really have those guys on the radio.
"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence." -- Vince Lombardi
Words do start off meaning different things then they eventually become. After all, if not, it would be weird to have GEICO insuring your car considering it’s the “Government Employees Insurance Company.”
In this case, while sabermetrics is derived from SABR, it’s not really even a perfect description of sabermetrics. Most of the goings-on in SABR have absolutely nothing to do with analysis, but historical research, so one can say that the term was coined poorly right from the start.
I don’t necessarily think there’s anything wrong with the term sabermetrics evolving over time to mean objective analysis of sports rather than objective analysis of baseball.
--
Dan Szymborski
dan@baseballprimer.com
by D.Szymborski on Feb 11, 2010 8:18 PM CST up reply actions
Fire up the Dutch Oven
For 5th starter!!
Greetings from the Humungus, the Ruler of the Wasteland, the Ayatollah of Rock and Roll-A. I laugh at your puny plans.
plus it says "INSTENSE"
which is kind of ominous
by BrentTaylor21 on Feb 11, 2010 7:48 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe all that talk by iorange et. al.
in the Adam Morris Fan page thread lead to a new sponsor?
You might be onto something
If the ads show up based on keywords.
Morality you can fake. Fun you either have or you don't.
Who sponsors Brazilian fart porn?
And yes, I’m still afraid of googling it.
I've the ad on several other SBNation blogs
There was even a poll about it on HH.
I doubt it has a thing to do with any of our conversations.
meta-signature
I was at DFW this morning
looking for a good roto mag. for my flight to Bayhill, FL and saw that lanky ass McCarthy.
"The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball." - Terence Mann
Fairly productive thread, congrats to all.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Feb 12, 2010 10:52 AM CST reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
