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Around SBN: Ryder Hesjedal Wins Giro d'Italia

Evan Grant with prospects #11-15

Evan Grant continues his list of the top 25 Rangers prospects, with numbers 11 through 15 having gone up today...

Grant has Luis Sardinas and Jurickson Profar ranked together, which makes sense, to me...

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You and Evan are kind of out there on the island together, though, right?

I’m not saying you’re right or wrong, but everyone else seems to love them some Profar more than they love Sardinas.

Maybe it’s because Profar has cooler Facebook statuses.

"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217

Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales

by WestTxAg06 on Feb 17, 2010 10:40 AM CST reply actions  

Leave it to Adam and Grant

those who don’t write about prospects tin too much depth, to maroon on an island full of Sardinas totems, which is as it should be. Goldstein is on that island too by the way; Jason Parks got that contradictory admission from him while Goldstein was relaying Profar instructs hype (people noticed that I’m sure, right?). There is zero reason not to like Sardinas as much as or more than Profar as a shortstop prospect. Instructs prospect hype is what it is, hype.

by Goyogringo on Feb 17, 2010 11:06 AM CST up reply actions  

You mean zero reason other than the fact that I've yet to talk to a scout...

outside the Rangers organization that thinks Sardinas is on the same level as Profar?

by JasonCole on Feb 17, 2010 12:39 PM CST up reply actions  

don't doubt Goyo

he’s never wrong. just ask him.

by BrentTaylor21 on Feb 17, 2010 12:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Fetch a thesaurus first

Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

by Keynes on Feb 17, 2010 12:59 PM CST up reply actions  

And find the island full of Sardinas totems, too

"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217

Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales

by WestTxAg06 on Feb 17, 2010 1:29 PM CST up reply actions  

This

We’ve heard raves about Profar through folks like Jamey, Jason, Joey, Trip and Goldstein, etc. that are apparently coming directly from Rangers people. The raves aren’t there for Sardinas. I don’t see any reason they should be ranked together.

Freude, schoener Goetterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische dein Heiligtum.

by t ball on Feb 17, 2010 1:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Me either.

Morality you can fake. Fun you either have or you don't.

by LSJ on Feb 17, 2010 8:35 PM CST up reply actions  

That said, I do think they should be pretty close.

Morality you can fake. Fun you either have or you don't.

by LSJ on Feb 17, 2010 8:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Trip on (non-AA) hitters, international prospects?

run away. Jamey, meh. Joey, on prospects? Goldstein (BP), meh, TX homer. Cole, good stuff, not critical enough (for me), which is fine, as that isn’t his aim. I sometimes needle him but he’s the only guy giving us primary source info. Sickels, meh, 2-line prospect profiles? BA, I likey, but plagued with inconsistencies. Jason Parks, good stuff, when source connected.

And I guess you should go back and re-read JP’s Goldstein feature where he gets the G-man to admit that TX is just as high on Sardinas and that he doesn’t really have a ready explanation to justify why he didn’t rank him top 10 alongside the Profar. Good stuff, window into the hype.

(here is the excerpt for good measure:
Q: Who is the best under-the-radar Latin American prospect in the system?
Goldstein: Luis Sardinas. Is he under the radar?
Parks: I think he has to be considered under-the-radar, given the fact that Profar is ranked No. 5 in the system and Sardinas isn’t on the list.
Goldstein: Yeah, okay, Sardinas. I’m more than comfortable, based on what I’ve heard so far, to rank him high on the list. (Yet, you didn’t KG. Take that!) The Rangers are really high on this kid and he has the classic Venezuelan shortstop profile.)

Also, in that piece, just for fun, carefully assess the non-tool talk and “makeup” meme in proportion to concrete tool talk and ask yourself just what kind of info the G-man dished out on Profar? Stories of: Makeup, leadership, “TX knows Curacao the best”, “TX saw profar the most”, “Preller was at Profar’s baptism”, etc… I regard the claims about Texas’ mastery of the the prospect landscape of the tiny island over all other clubs in general and with respect to Profar as nothing more than coffee talk, in a friends talking over beers kind of way. There are about 15 clubs with academies in VZ (right next to Cuacao) who have seen him as a 2 way player since he was 10. TX does not have a VZ academy by the way.

by Goyogringo on Feb 18, 2010 12:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Ok, so if scouts,

Rangers people, and all of the well-connected writers I mentioned above all speak highly of a guy, but you disagree, I should just discount it? Ok.

Freude, schoener Goetterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische dein Heiligtum.

by t ball on Feb 18, 2010 1:04 PM CST up reply actions  

It's a matter of trust and Goyo thinks all the Rangers writers are biased.

To a point, he’s right, but he takes it to a ridiculous extreme. Naturally, we get excited when we read what scouts think of our good players, and naturally, our opinions are going to reflect what we’ve heard, read, and seen with our own two eyes.

The one thing that gets me is that Goyo knocks our opinions on a near-daily basis despite the facts that he (1) rarely, if ever, actually lays eyes on the prospects we discuss and (2) doesn’t talk to scouts. He works with less than half of the information we have, and from that, somehow determines that we are all wrong and don’t know what we’re talking about.

I would also like to challenge him to find any scouting opinion written by me ANYWHERE ON THE INTERNET about a prospect that I haven’t laid eyes on. I have no business giving a detailed opinion on hitters or pitchers that haven’t come through Frisco. I have given snapshot opinions of international pitchers that I’ve seen at Spring Training (Rijo, Alvarez, etc.), and I discussed my interpretation of the reports on Profar.

It’s flat out silly to accuse me of issuing opinions that should be “run away” from on prospects that I don’t issue opinions on.

by NoNameOnCard on Feb 18, 2010 5:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Your 2nd paragraph

exactly. He scornfully dismissed the opinions of many folks with much more meaningful resources and more time in the ballpark watching these guys. It’s ridiculous. Disagree, but lose the attitude.

Freude, schoener Goetterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische dein Heiligtum.

by t ball on Feb 18, 2010 6:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm assuming that these scouts

watched the same Profar workout that you watched but missed the game when his play actually mattered, and disappointed. But then, the larger question is this: how much do instructs games really matter when gauging a player’s ceiling? Its a workout/teaching league isn’t it? Lots of scouts standing around watching infield practice, BP and bullpens, no? A league in which games are stopped for teaching moments and imaginary scenarios are given to players to react to. A league which is a second season for many, not bringing their best stuff, working on their worst stuff. It’s also a league where prospect hype runs rife in the slow off-season and often has no bearing on player performances the following season. We’ve seen that a lot over the years and I assume that much of that info comes from TX staff, no? Gauging a player’s ceiling based on Instructs is like suggesting Matt Kata is a starter based on his Spring Training performance.

So, lets be more concrete and talk defensive tools as that is where I think one should start when talking about an elite shortstop prospect. Everything that I have read suggests that Sardinas has much better speed and greater range than Profar. Both are supposed to have good hands. Profar has a plus arm, Sardinas has a strong arm. Both are suspect as hitters. In the end, the real issue that I have with the Profar hype is the apparent conflation of “maturity” with ceiling (and defensive tools that might not be elite). I could care less if Profar is a natural born leader as a 16yo rather, he needs to project to have elite defensive tools first and I’m not convinced he does. If he doesn’t – say he projects to have Ave to AA def. tools – then he doesn’t belong in the top 10 in a strong system.

Now if you care to disabuse me of anything in particular please go right ahead… maybe a few quotes from scouts who say that Profar projects as an elite ML shortstop in the Andrus mode (defensively at least) while Sardinas does not. Or that conversation with a scout in which he suggests Profar has better range, hands, and speed than the anorexic little VZ while Sardinas’ tools project as no better than average to above-average across the board.

In the end, when you read everything that has been written about Profar since he has signed, the attempt to characterize his defensive tools are all over the map – goldstein, BA, Newbie, you, Sickels, et al (all categorizing each tool as anywhere from average to plus) – so elevating him to top5 or top 10 as a prospect when no one can really be pinned down to describe his tools in any great detail -specifically, how they project as a ML shortstop – is pretty damning. Of course, I like both kids and think they have the same ceiling – AA major league shortstop – given what we know or think we know. So, as usual, my issue is mostly with prospect writing rather than the actual prospects. Unless we’re talking about Danny “meathead” Gutierrez, who is but a boil on the ass of prospectdom….

by Goyogringo on Feb 18, 2010 12:31 AM CST up reply actions  

Insane
I’m assuming that these scouts
watched the same Profar workout that you watched but missed the game when his play actually mattered, and disappointed.

So, a game at that age (for a prospect coming from a place where organized games are hard to come by compared to the states) matters that much more — for a raw 16-yr. old — than the tools/skills he shows in workout? Ok.

And why in the hell does he “need to” project elite defense? If he projects average defense with strong offense at a premium position, how does that exclude him from the top 10?

Freude, schoener Goetterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische dein Heiligtum.

by t ball on Feb 18, 2010 7:45 AM CST up reply actions  

"strong offense"?

Ok. Still taken in by windblown homeruns on BP eephus pitches I see. Your confidence in his bat is heartening, or something. You don’t really disagree with the idea that defense is the substratum that underlay elite SS prospects do you? Ave present defensive tools for a 17yo don’t project to future average ML tools. Other than “leadership” and arm Profar doesn’t seem to be in the same league as Andrus in terms of range, baserunning and speed. His glove is unproven at this point unless you believe that “soft hands” is a measure.

 In comparison, I don’t believe that there was much ambiguity about Andrus’ defensive skill set at 16-17 – plus across the board that projected at the ML level as near plus. Neither Profar or Sardinas deserve to be considered in the Andrus stratosphere based on what we know, think we know, claim to know, assert we know about them IMHO (right now). I think considering both as having AA ML ceiling (for differing reasons) is very reasonable but hardly worth an “elite” ranking. But then again I don’t value prospects for their fantasy value, rather on the likelihood, looking at all year to year measures, that they will reach their realistic ceiling, . And right now, there aren’t enough “measures” to reasonably assert Profar projects as an elite prospect, just instructs hype (and even less significant, hype from the DSL “B” team, mostly full of newly signed DSL org guys who will never make it stateside- credit Goldstein for hyping this nugget).

Now if Jason Cole wants to claim (or accepts the claim) that Profar has a defensive skill set equal to that which Andrus possessed at the same age, I’d like to hear it. He has after all seen all three players in person, if only for a couple of games for Sardinas and Profar (and, last but not least, some impressive workouts). Also, just for fun, I’d like to hear what proportion of the Profar talk coming from Ranger’s sources involved “uncanny makeup” vs tool talk? If I had to guess – and based on all the vague characterizations about Profar’s tools in all of the recently published secondary sources – I’d guess a 60/30, Makeup/Tools ratio for Profar-talk. IF it was the inverse, then you’d think the Profar tool talk would be much more concrete with less slippage into the “makeup” meme when Internet Prospectors weren’t sure (Goldstein again).

Also, I’d like to hear some specific quotes from Sardinas “doubters” (ie, from said scouts) that JC seems to be keeping close to the vest as it were. Or is there just a specious assertion that more Profar talk indicates a lower Sardinas ceiling – Profar is better because no one asks any questions about him? Funny thing is that I think JC would peg their ceilings as pretty close together if not the same. Am I wrong on this JC? You do after all write that Sardinas could develop into an elite SS prospect, right? Do I need to subscribe to LSD to get the answer?

Anyways, at this very preliminary juncture, and, well, at least until the end of their first year, I feel comfy asserting that Sardinas projects as the better defensive shortstop. If Profar proves his equal in the field and/or both prospects prove to have elite ceilings over the next couple of years, then that would be nothing but welcome and exciting prospect news.

by Goyogringo on Feb 18, 2010 11:48 AM CST up reply actions  

You know,

no one is speaking poorly of Sardinas here. Profar has impressed people, connected people, important people, people that have watched a hell of a lot of baseball over the years. Those are some legitimate reasons to rank Profar a little bit higher than Sardinas right now — which is all I’m advocating. I don’t have Profar 5th in my personal rankings, more like 10-12. And all the guys around him have plenty of question marks on their own.

Continue tilting at windmills, though, if you like.

Freude, schoener Goetterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische dein Heiligtum.

by t ball on Feb 18, 2010 1:07 PM CST up reply actions  

tl;dr

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Feb 18, 2010 1:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Umm, you forgot that Jurickson is the son of Judeska and Chesmond

That counts for something.

"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217

Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales

by WestTxAg06 on Feb 18, 2010 8:25 AM CST up reply actions  

tl;dr

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Feb 18, 2010 1:32 PM CST up reply actions  

If you were an old timey baseball player

from the dead ball era they’d probably call you Joey Matches or Matchstick.

Freude, schoener Goetterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische dein Heiligtum.

by t ball on Feb 17, 2010 1:43 PM CST up reply actions  

His nickname is "Jurickson Profar son of judeska and chesmond"

"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217

Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales

by WestTxAg06 on Feb 17, 2010 10:54 AM CST up reply actions  

This

Very much this

Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

by Keynes on Feb 17, 2010 12:03 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

His nickname should be

Jabberwocky.

Freude, schoener Goetterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische dein Heiligtum.

by t ball on Feb 17, 2010 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Oops, hit post too soon

Jabberwocky Prufrock.

Freude, schoener Goetterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische dein Heiligtum.

by t ball on Feb 17, 2010 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

It's my signature.

I am Jurickson Profar son of judeska and chesmond.. And I was born ready! ready to play baseball!!- Jurickson Profar 2/15/2010

by Aqua on Feb 17, 2010 2:01 PM CST up reply actions  

DMN Comments

Really?

Are these just newspaper readers that stroll over and can read the Captcha code? WTF.

"…although it does kinda show how little faith they have in Cruz, whether that be the org as a whole or just our beloved, bespectacled, kool-lovin’ skipper."

by Ryin A on Jan 11, 2010 5:48 PM EST

by hillcrest on Feb 17, 2010 10:52 AM CST reply actions  

I liked that comment about how JD was going to look foolish when Benoit rights his ship elsewhere

"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217

Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales

by WestTxAg06 on Feb 17, 2010 10:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Exactly

He didn’t suck while he was here, just wasn’t worth giving him a contract in the neighborhood he was looking for when we had better options that were already locked in. Why give him almost $1million when you already have Ray?

"…although it does kinda show how little faith they have in Cruz, whether that be the org as a whole or just our beloved, bespectacled, kool-lovin’ skipper."

by Ryin A on Jan 11, 2010 5:48 PM EST

by hillcrest on Feb 17, 2010 12:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Profar

Seems destined for greatness. Take a look at his most recent fbook update…

is tired of practice!! I wanna play I wanna play….waiting for march 12 to go to spring training! to kill some pichers:D:D I am Jurickson Profar son of judeska and chesmond.. And I was born ready! ready to play baseball!!

by Conjunction on Feb 17, 2010 11:09 AM CST reply actions  

That is

equal parts cool and funny ha

"JD gets complete blame or credit for what happens in 2010 and I think Nolan wants it that way. JD is paid to be a real GM and needs to start performing like one." - Josey Wales

by Michael Cave on Feb 17, 2010 11:57 AM CST up reply actions  

NEWSFLASH! BRAIN TRAUMA VICTIMS ATTRACTED TO DMN SITE! FULL STORY AT 10!
Posted by Bennie @ 10:38 AM Wed, Feb 17, 2010

If and/or when Ramirez rights his ship in another organization it is sure going to make JD look bad for giving up on him.

The same goes for Benoit.

"I think that Rangers is good team."-DemianBlue

by Pocket Ninja on Feb 17, 2010 11:27 AM CST reply actions  

We gave up on Ramirez?

Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

by Keynes on Feb 17, 2010 12:09 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

You're assuming that these people

know who Max or Neil Ramirez are. They are probably talking about Manny. The only one they know.

It is a great thing to know the season for speech and the season for silence.
--Seneca

by bioaggie on Feb 17, 2010 12:17 PM CST up reply actions  

I think the other comment about BB

is worse (although both are idiotic). JD took Blake Beavan instead of Porcello only to build the top ranked farm system 2 years in a row. He really screwed the pooch with that ’07 draft. If only we had Drew Meyer

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Feb 17, 2010 12:43 PM CST up reply actions  

If we take Porcello

We probably don’t get Beavan, Main, or Borbon due to not having enough money

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Feb 17, 2010 1:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Just wondering

Today, would you trade those 3 for Porcello?

"Jurick Profar is tired of practice!! I wanna play I wanna play….waiting for march 12 to go to spring training! to kill some pichers:D:D I am Jurickson Profar son of judeska and chesmond.. And I was born ready! ready to play baseball!!" - Jurickson Profar

by chrisR on Feb 17, 2010 1:34 PM CST up reply actions  

That's a good question.

And one that wasn’t intended for me, so I’ll just ponder it in my own head.

by Drew062682 on Feb 17, 2010 1:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Ask again after we see how Main bounces back this season.

I am Jurickson Profar son of judeska and chesmond.. And I was born ready! ready to play baseball!!- Jurickson Profar 2/15/2010

by Aqua on Feb 17, 2010 2:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Thats a tough one

But given our need for a CF I would have to say no

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Feb 17, 2010 2:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Things that make you go hmmmm...

Yes. Right now, that’s like trading a future No.3/4, a future BMac, and Juan Pierre for a No.2 who’s ready now? I’d say yes.

Though I don’t have a problem with JD’s/the FO’s thought process at the time. They probably thought they were getting 2 guys who had a chance at being close to what Porcello could be, plus a Juan PIerre. Hindsight is 20/20.

If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.

by GhettoBear04 on Feb 17, 2010 10:53 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not buying the Pierre comps.

Borbon had more HRs in 1/3 season than Pierre ever had in one full season. And Pierre played 162 four times. He’s also led the league in caught stealing a few times.

I think Borbon will have much more pop, and be a better, more efficient base stealer.

'Waiting for a girl and she gets me into fights
Waiting for a girl we get drunk on Friday night'

by scoop16 on Feb 17, 2010 11:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure...this was just a rough estimation.

I think Main has more promise than a future BMac, too, but was trying to give middle of the road projections. Porcello has a chance to be better than a No. 2 also.

If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.

by GhettoBear04 on Feb 18, 2010 8:27 AM CST up reply actions  

I get what you're saying

I generally take the guy who’s proven more in the bigs, in regards to trade hypotheticals. I’m just bullish on Borbon.

'Waiting for a girl and she gets me into fights
Waiting for a girl we get drunk on Friday night'

by scoop16 on Feb 18, 2010 9:42 AM CST up reply actions  

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