Rank the Baseball Commissioners
by DJCahill on Feb 9, 2010 8:30 AM CST
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PrintWith Richard Justice crowning Bud Selig the best commissioner ever, I figured it would be a good time to poll the LSB faithful to see if they agree. Feel free to throw in any comments on any of the commissioners.
Is it Landis, who kept African Americans out of baseball, or Eckert, who had not been to a live game in the 10 years before being commissioner, or Ueberroth who spearheaded collusion? Lots of great choices!
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Bart Giamatti
Just because the name is Simpsons meets Sopranos.
Morality you can fake. Fun you either have or you don't.
Since he had the good sense
to croak before his first year was out, he stands a good chance of winning.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
His son is a good actor.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Feb 9, 2010 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
Paul Giamatti is his son?
Did not know that
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
yessir
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Feb 9, 2010 1:52 PM CST up reply actions
From the writings of George Will it seems there's a sad "what might have been?" aura surrounding Giamatti's all-too short tenure
And I’ve got a slight issue with your hasty dismissal of Landis. His refusal to consider integration is indefensible. However, but for Landis’ management the game might well have collapses in the aftermath of the Black Sox scandal. I think his keeping the very game alive merits his mention on the upper end of the rankings.
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
by WestTxAg06 on Feb 9, 2010 8:58 AM CST via mobile reply actions
I doubt the game collapses
anymore than the game will collapse after the steroid scandal. People tend to want to forget about those things.
Landis’ stance on integration is a bigger black mark on the commissioner’s office than anything Selig ever did.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
Agree on the size of the black mark
I’m interested in carrying on this gambling discussion, though. I am admittedly not an expert on the topic, just having read a little on it throughout the years, but my understanding is that gambling/game-fixing was not unusual in the early decades of baseball. Once it made its way to the World Series, then you suddenly have a question of whether the sport as a whole is “real” or if its a rigged sham. Assuming that the threat of game-fixing was that real, wouldn’t the future of the game be in question? People aren’t going to take it seriously as a sport if they think the outcomes are predetermined.
On the other hand, I am still angry about Shoeless Joe’s lifetime ban and I think he deserves to be in the Hall, ESPECIALLY before Rose gets in.
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
I think gambling was a bigger issue than steroids
and Landis certainly deserves a few props for getting the game back in line, even if his methods were somewhat harsh and arbitrary.
That said, like Cahill points out, you have to look at the whole picture. And segregation of the sport is a far bigger blemish than anything Bud was involved in.
Go Rice Owls!
Agree totally, JB
That’s why I don’t like people whining about steroids running the “integrity” of the great game. Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Cool Papa Bell, Satchel Paige, Buck O’Neill and other greats being kept out of MLB for so long had a much bigger impact on the actual competition on the field.
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
Gambling
Boxing was the most popular sport in the country at the time and if “fixing” didn’t kill that sport it wasn’t going to kill baseball.
Yep,
the thought that Baseball would have imploded due to the gambling scandal and Landis saved it is fairly far-fetched. The argument isn’t much different than claiming Selig saved baseball after the steroid scandals.
People would have kept watching regardless.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
Interesting point on boxing
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
Maybe we should phone Joe Morgan...
Morality you can fake. Fun you either have or you don't.
by LSJ on Feb 9, 2010 9:31 AM CST up reply actions
Sharky maybe?
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
ugh
Just because the guy has HBO specials and likes baseball doesn’t mean he could manage anything, much less MLB.
Go Rice Owls!
George Will > Bob Costas
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
Not sure either of them
could manage anything.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
At least George Will looks smart
Costas looks like a little kid giddy to be at the ballgame. I’m a short guy who loves baseball also – make me commish.
Go Rice Owls!
george will
uggh.
i vote against the guy because of his extreme politics.
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
You think Will is extreme????
I think he’s very much center-right but extreme?
Tells me that
gossamer is most likely the one that is extreme.
heh
if being a little liberal makes one extreme, why can’t a liberal call somebody that is more than center right extreme?
as a mainstream political journalist he is unethical. he helps presidential campaigns while still writing as an “objective journalist” time after time he has failed to disclose relationships with subjects he writes about. as a global warming doubter he has published flat out lies.
no, he is no extremist like a hannity/limbaugh/palin type, but he is more conservative than me, making him unacceptable.
see, i’d be a perfect senator.
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
I don't think being a little liberal is extreme.
But if someone thinks George Will is extreme, I question that person being “a little” liberal.
i can't call myself
a full on liberal because
1) abortion isn’t really an important issue to me
2) i have supported conservadems and moderate republicans in the past
3) while i was against the iraq war, i never supported immediate withdrawal
4) i don’t hate rich people
5) i get pissed off at entitlement programs on occasion
6) i don’t like jesse jackson
7) would like for affirmative action to get phased out in a few years
8) wouldn’t mind having the republicans control one branch of government (prefer legislative)
9) support right to work
and several other things that don’t make me super liberal
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
also
hate crimes are stupid. prosecute attempted murder the same as you would prosecute attempted murder w/ hate being the motive
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
x
I don’t think George Will is an objective journalist. I think it is pretty widely known that he is conservative.
by GregoryM on Feb 9, 2010 2:04 PM CST up reply actions
i'm not talking
columns where it’s obvious he’s doing an oped
i’m talking in the past when he’d do hard news pieces. even covering different republican candidates in same race.
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
I haven't seen him do many things
where he isn’t portrayed as a conservative opinion. I don’t believe I have ever seen him portrayed as an objective news man.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
I think there are many more journalists
who you can complain about doing that more than George Will. Chris Matthews and George Stephonopolos (?) come to mind. They are as liberal as Will is conservative, but they’re portrayed more as journalists than opinion editorialists.
Go Rice Owls!
matthews
doesn’t have a journalism background and he’s weird. he served under tip sure, but was a bush boy for at least the first 3 years of the bush admin. then he went the direction of the country and started in against bush. now he’s a democratic party cheery leader. maybe that’s more to do with the direction of msnbc.
i liked matthews when i was in highschool because he actually appeared to be fair and balanced.
i’m no fan of george stephanopolis.
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
that's fine
i wouldn’t be a good commish either. i’d be too concerned about the fans
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
I actually think his book had some brilliant ideas.
I don’t know that he’d be a good commissioner, but I do think he’d be a good adviser to an open-minded commissioner.
granted it is one dimensional
but when Selig took over, it was a given that every 5 years we were going to have at least the threat (and most likely the reality) of some sort of work stoppage.
Now, that isn’t even on the radar. I don’t know the last time I heard someone discuss when the CBA expires other than with regard to positive developments, such as negotiating the draft or compensation, etc.
This is huge. We’re talking orders of magnitude more important than steroids (which existed pre-Selig).
Go Rice Owls!
That's a very fair point, JB
Especially when you consider that the other major sports have had (or are about to see) MAJOR labor issues in the last 15 years.
I’m no fan of Selig as a person, or in the P.R. realm, or in some of his stupid decisions, but from a labor standpoint, baseball is in great shape right now.
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
I still meet people
who say they stopped following baseball after 1994.
I’ve never met anyone who said they stopped following baseball because of steroids.
Go Rice Owls!
Truth is, the casual fan probably doesn't know enough about the steroid issue to care all that much, but they do enjoy watching home runs
Most diehard fans fall into one of two camps: either they love baseball too much too care about steroids or they understand that baseball’s integrity isn’t ruined because various issues have plagued every era of the game.
Most of your rants about steroids seem to come from media types who are just looking for something to complain about.
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
Where as I agree that he has done a good job on the labor front
keep in mind, he is not independent. Unlike all the other commissioners, he is an owner. Bile comes up every time I think about it. How can he be impartial to the players? His positions or stances come from an owner’s perspective. I doubt you get the all star game fiascoes with an independent commissioner. Steroids proliferated because that put butts back in the seats after the strike. The whole Sosa/McGwire home run chase was a sham. I just don’t see that happenning without PEDS primarily because it didn’t happen before and hasn’t happenned after(other than Bonds and well, you know, that kinda proves my point).
I’m with Cahill. All the commissioners suck upon inspection.
Your 2009 Snow Monkey Ambassador
To be fair, he hasn't owned the team for 5 years.
But sure, before that there was a definite conflict of interests.
'Waiting for a girl and she gets me into fights
Waiting for a girl we get drunk on Friday night'
Are you saying he sold the team?
I thought he put it in “receivership” with his family or in a blind trust. OK, l looked it up, and he did sell back in 1/05 for $223 million. 5 yrs. later our beloved Rangers sell for twice as much. Wow. He was commissioner for 12 years as an owner.
Your 2009 Snow Monkey Ambassador
Kinda puts it in perspective
Not really a standout candidate. Each of them has significant flaws.
Is there any way to take a vote back and vote again? I thought I was voting for Chandler, but I accidentally had Frick checked.
meta-signature
Heh, Giamatti's dominating- The Cobain Effect
I went with Frick. He reigned over the heyday of the sport, IMO. I’m kinda cheating though, including his time as NL president. He thwarted any ideas of boycotting Jackie Robinson, and was integral in starting the HOF.
His major asterisk is of course the asterisk.
'Waiting for a girl and she gets me into fights
Waiting for a girl we get drunk on Friday night'
Also, he tried to keep players in their place.
Sure, he failed, and the game is worse for it, but it’s not his fault.
Kuhn
If you’ve ever read John Helyar’s “Lords of the Realm,” there’s pretty much no way you could consider Kuhn the best of anything, unless the vote was for “Best at Getting His Ass Repeatedly Handed to Him.”
It’s really hard to read that book and come off with even a tiny bit of sympathy for the owners- they treated the players like chattel, and were so opposed to even the most modest free agency proposals by the union, that they got what they deserved. Another note about that book- it lays out a very good case for Selig as one of the ringleaders of the collusion scandal, which alone should have been enough to sink any chances he had of becoming commissioner.
If I were a player, I’d look at Selig about the same way I’d look at some random asshole who was trying to break into my house and rob me, because that’s pretty much what he did. The owners’ choice of him to replace Vincent was a serious miscalculation, IMO, and did a lot to damage labor relations in the coming years.
"Jesus, Spanish- first our jobs, now our words?"
-- Sterling Archer
And if this topic was at all serious. . .
. . . I wouldn’t vote for someone for trying to maintain strict control of the players.
I do want players to be kept mostly out of power, but free agency is okay.
Actually though,
there has been a fairly long period of labor peace. It’s been what, almost 15 years without a day lost?
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
Also: re-collusion.
Again, being serious for a moment.
With major collusion having happened in all of our life times, and with Selig implicated as a ring leader in the scandal, and with Selig’s pretty clear opinion of Bonds, how could people possibly have ruled out collusion so definitively when Bonds couldn’t get a job in baseball? Particularly with plenty of GMs and managers speaking about interest in him before shutting up either at the behest of their owners publicly or mysteriously changing their minds after talking to the media. Assuming their was collusion without proof would be idiotic, and waiting until some proof could be found certainly makes sense. But all things considered, just dismissing collusion as impossible was borderline psychotic and I never got how people could treat it as an unrealistic situation. It’s like people hate Bonds so much they can’t be objective about anything that has to do with him.
And now I have to take a shower after saying nice things about the guy in two topics today.
Fay Vincent
I’m partial to him and I usually agree with what he says. Would one of you knowers of things point out to me what he did that makes him not vote worthy.
There was a work stoppage
on his watch in 90, and since issues were unresolved, it kind of lead to the 94 work stoppage. Overall, he didn’t bring a ton of labor peace.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
you can say black people
i know i don’t like being called caucasian
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
Landis was arguably
the most powerful commissioner ever.
“For twenty-four years Judge Landis wouldn’t let a black man play. I had his records, and I read them, and for twenty-four years Landis consistently blocked any attempts to put blacks and whites together on a big league field.” – Happy Chandler
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
Seems like a pretty stupid opinion.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
why is that
You’d have to have a pretty broad knowledge of baseball history to be able to make a sound judgment. Not many people have that kind of knowledge.
by Black Francis on Feb 10, 2010 12:50 AM CST up reply actions
You don't think some folks on this blog
have a pretty broad knowledge of baseball history?
Also, I didn’t hear a lot of folks telling people that they weren’t qualified to have an opinion when they were saying BSelig was the worst commissioner ever.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
I think the knowlege here is way, way above the average fan
…but in order to rank the commissioners and do it well you’d have to have a historian’s knowledge on the game and I haven’t seen many people around here who fit that description. It’s not an insult. I mean you have people like Nadel and Will and some others who have dedicated a very large part of their life to baseball. Not many of us are able to do that. We can know the players from certain eras and the major events and maybe even the history of a team pretty well, but baseball has always operated behind the scenes at the commissioner level and for every historical event we read about today there were probably fifty other lesser historical events that still had significant impact on the game.
When people rant about Bud Selig I assume it to be hyperbole because, really, is he the WORST? I mean how the hell would most of us know that?
by Black Francis on Feb 10, 2010 7:50 AM CST up reply actions
Selig isn
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
Selig isn't the worst
not by a longshot. In fact he is probably closer to the best than the worst.
I am a little tickled by the high ranking of Giamatti, who, let’s face it, didn’t live long enough to do anything great for baseball.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
what is funny about the Giamatti voters
is the majority of them are probably angry at Selig for not reinstating Pete Rose.
Saying Giamatti is the best commish is like saying James Garfield was the best president. I mean, both had good credentials, meant well, and had awesome beards. But come on…
Go Rice Owls!
Yet you feel like
you can have an opinion on the reasons the civil war was fought? Seems like you’d have to have a pretty broad knowledge of History, economics and sociology to make a sound judgment. Not many people have that kind of knowledge.
I’m guessing you’ll need to check with that dude on all the history channel shows with the civil war era mustache. He seems like the best place to start.
Yep
I do feel like I can have an informed opinion about the civil war. It’s been written about exhaustively and I do have a broad knowlege of economics, history, and politics as well as sociology. Certainly enough to understand the topic and draw inferences.
To my knowlege not a lot has been written about the commissioner’s office bur if there has it would probably be so boring very few of us would have read it.
by Black Francis on Feb 10, 2010 12:56 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
In order
to really have an informed opinion on the civil war you’d have to have a historian’s knowledge of the events and I’m guessing you don’t fit that description. It’s not an insult. I mean you have people like Shelby Foote and others that have dedicated a very large part of their life to the study of the civil war. Not many of us (and I’m guessing you too) are able to do that. We can know the generals and major events and maybe even know the general history pretty well and for every historical event we read about today there were probably hundreds of other lesser events that still had significant impact on the war.
This is a stupid argument
Generals and officers and enlisted men wrote diaries and letters that survive today. Provided we’re literate, we can read them. It was a very well chronicled event. You’re suggesting that the level of scholarship on baseball commissioners is on par with that of the Civil War. That’s ridiculous and you know it, so go fuck yourself.
by Black Francis on Feb 10, 2010 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
I knew
this is exactly how you’d react. In fact, I almost didn’t even respond because of it. Your act is so predictable at times.
If you can’t take a little needling because you took that weak position that none of us are qualified to have an opinion then don’t offer it up.
And, yes I know it was a ridiculous argument on my part using your words against you to point out how ridiculous you were being. Either you were too stupid to get that (which I doubt) or you couldn’t take the criticism (which I was almost positive would be the case). Had you just said, “point taken” I’d have at least respected you. Now I just think your a baby. I’m sure you’re all heartbroken (sarcasm, since you can’t read between the lines)
why
Why would I say “point taken” when you offered an argument that you concede is stupid?
I don’t give a goddamn if you think I have a short temper, if you think I’m a baby, that I can’t handle criticism, am predictable and/or stupid or anything else. Similarly, you shouldn’t care that I told you to fuck yourself. It’s the internet.
Now I would like to point out that I never said that people couldn’t or shouldn’t have an opinion about baseball commissioners, but when someone is presented with a list of all of them and asked to rank them, that’s going way beyond most peoples’ knowledge of the subject.
by Black Francis on Feb 10, 2010 3:52 PM CST up reply actions
Did you read the posts?
I didn’t say that you said we “couldn’t have an opinion”. I said that you said we weren’t “qualified”, which you did. See you’re first post above. In the same vein you’re not “qualified” when it comes to the civil war. That was it. I guess that explains why you missed the whole point.
And yes, it’s the internet, and I don’t really care that you tell me to go fuck myself. Nor do you really care that I think you turned bitchy in here for no real reason. I still like to keep the discussion civil.
Let’s just agree to move along.
Qualified to make a well-informed opinion is obviously what I meant, and still mean.
Anyway a reply weighted that heavily with sarcasm is not what I’d call civil discussion, but it doesn’t matter. There’s no point in arguing about this.
by Black Francis on Feb 10, 2010 4:44 PM CST up reply actions
Baseball isn't
a well chronicled event?
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
There are not volumes of texts written about various commissioners of baseball.
Not compared to say, Robert E. Lee, William Sherman, or Ulysses S. Grant.
by Black Francis on Feb 10, 2010 5:35 PM CST up reply actions
There is plenty
especially on Landis, Frick, Chandler, etc. Also, there are quite a few on this board who have been alive during the majority of the commissioners.
It is not an obscure topic in the the least.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
Yep
Read “Lords of the Realm” and pretty much anything by Andrew Zimbalist, and you’ve got a better understanding of baseball’s labor history than 99% of the fans out there.
Plus, “Lords of the Realm” also delves a fair bit into the various owners and commissioners- it covers everything from Landis to the beginning of the Selig era. I really can’t recommend it enough- easily one of the top 5 baseball books I’ve ever read.
"Jesus, Spanish- first our jobs, now our words?"
-- Sterling Archer
ok you guys win
Everyone here at LSB has the prerequisite historical baseball knowledge to rank the commissioners of baseball. Except for me.
by Black Francis on Feb 11, 2010 3:38 PM CST up reply actions
Considering we do rank the prospects
all the time here, and the vast majority of people haven’t seen every prospect play, it seems pretty fitting.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
I actually have a very similar opinion about that.
Note that I never take part in those. Am unqualified and can admit that.
by Black Francis on Feb 12, 2010 11:14 AM CST up reply actions
How dare you compare Richard Justice to Eric Nadel!
How dare you, sir.
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
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