Monday morning Rangers things
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 11:05 AM CDT
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PrintDraft day #1 today. Much mystery around the Rangers' potential picks, and of course, the Rangers will be picking around the same time they are playing tonight. Brett Perryman takes a look at some potential Ranger targets at the ESPN Dallas blog.
Frustrating loss yesterday, with another mediocre performance from Rich Harden that has generated more "trade him/demote him/d.l. him/cut him" talk.
A 5.34 ERA and a 5.73 FIP isn't the sort of performance from a starting pitcher that usually has folks demanding blood, particularly when the pitcher in question has a track record of dominance, but there's something about Harden that generates a heightened level of hostility.
Evan Grant, in his post-game post, blames Harden for the Rangers not pulling off the sweep, even though the bullpen gave up more runs than Harden in fewer innings, and suggests that Harden is on the verge of losing his rotation spot when Derek Holland is ready to return from the disabled list.
Jeff Wilson's game story says that Harden has been battling the same issues since spring training, and also suggests that Harden could lose his rotation spot when Holland returns.
Richard Durrett says that Harden has allowed the fifth most foul balls of any pitcher in the A.L., resulting in longer at bats and fewer strikeouts, while wondering how long the Rangers can continue to go with him.
William Wilkerson's notes in the S-T talk about the performance Saturday by the Bizarro Harden, Tommy Hunter, and has an update on the injury situations with Derek Holland, Tanner Scheppers, and Martin Perez.
Wilson has a story up about Josh Hamilton's knee.
Wilkerson talks to Justin Smoak about how he found out the Rangers drafted him.
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"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jun 7, 2010 11:07 AM CDT reply actions
read it this morning
very entertaining
by I am Neftali Feliz on Jun 7, 2010 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
"Zero fish. In six hours. That is hard to do."
That is about what I do whenever I go fishing.
Thank you Houston for drafting Jason Castro.
I used to be a fairly avid angler.
I have no idea why.
It was fun for a while, then I just abandoned it all together, like most other hobbies I’ve taken up throughout my life on earth.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jun 7, 2010 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Morgan Ensberg Blog Q & A
Maury Brown has a Q&A with former big leaguer and new blogger Morgan Ensberg up. I encourage folks to check it out. It is relatively short but still an interesting read.
It can be found here
Good stuff.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jun 7, 2010 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Yep.
…but there’s something about Harden that generates a heightened level of hostility.
Nobody can argue that Harden’s been good or close to it, but I don’t understand the anger directed toward him in relation to, say, Chris Davis or Taylor Teagarden or anyone else who has been a big sack of fail this year.
"Don’t want to spend my night waiting in line unless it’s for more beer."
--EssBee, on LoneStarBall, Jan. 21, 2010
I don't get the anger either
Harden has been mediocre, with a few good flashes surrounded by poor performances. You’re absolutely right – the same people wanting to cut Harden after six weeks seem to be the same that come up with excuse after excuse for Davis and Tea.
He was a high risk signing, and high risk signings sometimes don’t work out. That doesn’t mean he was a waste of money, or “in it only for the money” or whatever. It means that when you sign a guy who could be an ace for 1/3 ace market value, you’re only about 30% likely to get a good pitcher. Don’t take it personally.
Go Rice Owls!
I'm confused
We overreact to everything here, why should anyone be surprised that we spew venom towards a guy we expected to pitch very well when healthy but has been shit?
one and one and one is three
I'm not surprised
nor am I annoyed. I’m just voicing my reason for not caring that much.
When I was complaining about Davis incessantly last May and June, people wasted no time in telling me that I was overreacting, a hater, and didn’t appreciate him enough
Go Rice Owls!
Remember
all the LSB bullshit about how Davis deserved to be playing regardless of how he was hitting because of his defense?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
complete bs
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
Meh
Harden is yolked with failed expectations. It doesn’t help the fact that his command/control is non existent and he is working mostly in the high 80s with his fastball. It worries people and some people think that we have a plethora of better options in the minors.
I guess I don’t see the problem with wanting to throw harden under the bus at this point. I mean he is a 5 or under inning pitcher pretty much. I still hope there is something not quite right with him because that would explain some of the problems.
What do voluntary mean?
The dude abides.....
Average FB velocity of 90.9 this year
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Are you including yesterday?
From what I saw on Gameday, looked like he was consistently pitching in the high 80s.
Didn't see the velo readings that game
just know that lately he’s had more readings in the 90s and was looking at his graph at fangraphs. He’s had several outings lately where his velo was closer to 92-93, but looking at the graph again today, it was more like 90-91 the last two starts.
one and one and one is three
I'm not saying that they should leave Harden in the rotation
The Rangers have a good chance at winning this division, if dumping Harden for Holland or even Harrison makes more sense, then by all means do it.
I’m just saying that the vitriol towards Harden is a little strange. Cut him because he’s sucking, not because he’s not taking his losses as hard as real Rangers do.
Go Rice Owls!
Its very funny
I was thinking about the difference between Harden and Hunter this year. From a hitters stand point, you face Hunter, and come away thinking, “damn, I really beat this guy up”, then look at the stat sheet and see a big 0 for 5. On the other hand, you face Harden, and come away thinking, “I HATE facing him, I flailed at his fastball, I looked stupid on his change” then look at the stat sheet and see you went 1 for 3 with a sac fly and a walk or 2 for 4 with a walk or something like that.
Harden’s stuff is there. He can make any batter look foolish, but he’s just not finishing innings. he’s not getting quick outs. Every guy has a chance to walk or drop a ball in somewhere. Hunter, on the other hand, everyone sees those pitches, but they just haven’t hit them. Well, they hit them, just not very hard.
Oh my god! What can it be? We're all doomed! Who's flying this thing?
-Wash
Minor quibble
Harden’s usually not around long enough for you to have 3 plate appearances (let alone 4) against him.
I actually liken him to CD, instead of ignoring the shortcomings of one and shaking my fist at the other.
I would say the off setting difference of Harden actually contributing 5 IP is offset by his salary. With CD, they could send him down and he costs peanuts compared to Harden. Plus, CD’s suck was seen almost every day. Harden’s below avg. pitching only is seen once every 5 days. I also consider that a push since Harden’s effect can sometimes be seen for 2 days later in an overworked bullpen.
I wouldn’t say anger is the word, just another disappointment that people get to bitch about.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
High Risk/High Reward
People only like those moves when the player is first signed and when the player succeeds. When they just fail, then its a waste of money.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I still like the Harden move.
I don’t question the thought process behind it at all. It just, unfortunately, hasn’t worked out. And that’s frustrating. And something has to be done to get him out of the rotation.
bingo
I’m tired of people confusing process and results on this and other moves.
one and one and one is three
No shit
People praise a high-risk, high-reward move when it’s made, and when the risk proves true, they decide that it was an idiotic decision
Those of us who were never on board with this signing being a slam dunk
are allowed to criticize.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
Of course it wasn't a slam dunk. That's the whole point.
It was the three-pointer you take with half a second left on the shot because your point guard, one Tom Hicks, wasted all the time during the possession daydreaming about soccer.
I'm not sure
7.5 million on high risk signings are all that bright. Now I understand the NRIs, which cost you next to nothing, but I don’t know about 7.5 million on an injury risk. I wasn’t particularly fond of spending money for Sheets either, for the same reason.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
If you want an ace pitcher
7.5 million is a small price to pay.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
The injury risk thing is the weird thing about this one,
because supposedly he’s been healthy. He’s just sucked like never before. Which could be more detrimental to the team than an actual injury since he’s still taking up space that could potentially be filled by an above-replacement-level player (at least when Holland gets back).
So if the team’s medical staff thought he was healthy, and still think he’s healthy, I can’t blame the front office for not foreseeing this out-of-nowhere level of suckage.
This.
If you told me Rich Harden ended up contributing nothing above replacement level this season, I’d be disappointed, but not crushed. I was only hoping for about two wins above that, anyway, and I’d just figure it was because he missed almost the entire season to injury.
But the problem is that he isn’t getting hurt, he’s contributing nothing above replacement AND potentially stopping the team from improving.
7.5 isn't even what an average player gets on the open market.
Rich Harden was being paid to roughly reproduce what he did last year, probably not even that good, value wise. It just sucks that it was for a cash-strapped team.
For his upside, I still think it was a fine gamble, just not one that paid off.
That doesn't mean the move can't be criticized.
I never bought it with Harden.
This was another case of JD depending a player/pitcher to do something he didn’t do the previous year and expect success.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
How so?
If Harden had done exactly what he did last year then the move would have worked out. (Worked out perfectly, no less, if you use Fangraphs’ WAR.)
Of course you never bought it with Harden
because it was another reason for you to bitch about one of JD’s moves.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I've applauded the Vlad & Cobra signings
and I sung JD’s praises for shit-canning Davis when he did.
I was very worried Harden wouldn’t give us more than 15 starts with 6 IPs and I was also very dubious of Dusty Tits taking his starts.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
sung/sang
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
Well then
It seems that your worries should be put at rest. Harden looks very capable of giving us more than 15 starts and Nippert won’t start any games.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
15 starts with 6 IPs, doggy boy.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
So you're telling me
that you thought he could go more than 15 starts, but not give 6 IP?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I said we needed him to give us
at least 15 starts where he lasted more than 6 IPs.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
No, I was hopeful that Harden would
give us at least 25 starts with 15 of those starts lasting more than 6 IPs.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
I think most folks were hoping for less starts but more innings..
I think the reasonable expectation based on his past was “better starts, more missed starts”
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
Vlad
This was another case of JD depending a player/pitcher to do something he didn’t do the previous year and expect success.
This is how a risky sign works. You save money bc Harden nor Vlad had good years. You see that they’ve dominated in previous points of their career. In Harden’s case, he’s still young.
You never hit 100%.
I like the Vlad signing but it should also be pointed
out that it was JD’s job in the off-season to improve the offense and we’re still 21 runs behind where we were last year.
It’s not a criticism yet because the season still needs to breathe but to date, our offense is worse than it was last year.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
Galloway logic at its finest
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
No, Vlad replaced our DH and we've upgraded
but C and 1B remain problem areas and now CF is a Black Hole.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
I thought you were a MaxRam fan
and now Treanor and Smoak are hitting too.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I like Max but he sits what, 75%
of the time …for Matt Fucking Treanor.
I also love the future of Smoak but we’re playing nursemaid to him right now.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
Actually hes started 35% of the games since being called up
40% of the games since May 9th with a line of 286/366/486 while Treanor has started the other 60% of the games and put up a 286/351/592 line in the same span.
I think the playing time has been doled out pretty good between the two and has maximized the production out of the position
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
So
the number is 35% of the starts or roughly 1 of 3 games.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
Since being called up...yes
But he only started three games the first two weeks he was up. Since then hes started 40% of the games which a 60/40 split is what most on here felt was proper. Especially when both have given you almost identical offensive numbers over that same span.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Wash is making the right call
Max in the last 14 days has a .564 OPS. Treanor on the other hand has a .909 OPS.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Max is playing enough right now
Treanor is on fire and Max has started to cool down a bit. Smoak is doing just fine. You, as a follower of Bill James, can easily see how well he’s done this year with some bad luck on balls in play hurting his line. He might not be the best against lefties, but he is a definite huge upgrade over our 2009 1B production.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
The offense is not worse than last year
at least, it certainly does not look like it will be under last year’s run pace for the rest of the season. At this point last year the team was just beginning it’s big offensive slump. The current team has Smoak awakening and will get a boost when Cruz comes back. If Borbon continues to suck they’ll replace him but right now, he’s the biggest problem and he’s hitting 9th.
one and one and one is three
The Rangers were most certainly not depending on Harden to do more than he did last year.
One player doesn’t sink a team. Even necessarily in a pennant race this close with a player of Harden’s caliber. And he was certainly not being paid to be better than he was last year.
I agree completely
The problem is that we pretty much have to wait for Holland to get healthy if we don’t want to yo-yo someone else around in Harden’s spot.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Expectations
When someone like Harden is signed, people usually visualize one of two outcomes. While healthy, he’ll provide good (if not great) results. When not healthy, he’ll be out of the rotation and someone else will provide the mediocre results. The in-between scenario (healthy but mediocre results) is not often considered.
Similar to signing some veteran as an NRI for the line-up. The argument in favor is usually that if he’s productive you keep him and if not you let him go (low risk). The case of him teasing you with occasional flashes of productive play is not considered in these arguments. See: 2009, Andruw Jones.
Considering
Harden’s underwhelming performance thus far and people clamoring for Ray to be sent down for minor league bullpen help, in hindsight do you think we would have been better off keeping Millwood (I think we basically traded Millwood for those two)?
Yep
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
Well, hindsight's 20/20 and all that...
I still don’t think the Harden signing was a bad move at the time. But I was also on board with keeping Millwood around (largely because I thought it was unreasonable to expect repeat performances from Feldman and Hunter and Millwood looked to be, at worst, an LAIE).
In hindsight, yeah.
Not a very high-upside move, though. And, frankly, I don’t think even this worst-case Harden scenario is really that much worse, especially if Harden gets replaced by Holland (another guy with more upside than Millwood) when he comes back.
I think by the end of the year we would have (rather like last year) seen Millwood run out of gas and been in this same position of “we need to replace him with Holland or someone from AAA.”
Yes.
But this is process vs. results, and it’s really not a big difference, anyway. It probably only makes about a win or two of difference this year so far at most. The move didn’t work out, but it made perfect sense at the time, and it hasn’t killed the team, anyway.
Let's ask that again in September
I have zero confidence that Millwood is going to be this good in the second half.
one and one and one is three
It's about the money
Harden is getting paid a lot, while Davis and TT are not. The fact that Harden’s salary is the only reason he’s still pitching has a lot to do with the frustration with Rich.
I didn't know what a mancrush was. Derek Holland showed me.
by DerekSTheRed on Jun 7, 2010 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions
It's not even about money to me, it's that when Holland gets healthy I don't think Harden is one of our 5 best starting options
I don’t expect Hunter to toss complete games every time out, but he’s a much better option than Harden.
Bunting makes me spooge in my pants!
Of course then
you have a hard choice between Harden and Feldman. Neither have shown much reason to keep them in the rotation.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
I think Feldman's bag of suck is slightly less full than Harden's.
Bunting makes me spooge in my pants!
Its pretty close
and neither are performing well enough to hold down a rotation spot over better options.
Hopefully, they will be able to DL one of the two when Holland is healthy.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
great
again we’re comparing out 1-2 pitchers as to which one is worse…
this never gets old.
last time, someone said that clewis and cj were now our 1-2 pitchers.
cj has subsequently initiated his own implosion.
by sam in so cal on Jun 7, 2010 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I think the money has a lot to do with it.
Certainly if he was being paid minimum and from our farm system we would get a whole lot more “he needs more chances”.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
Perhaps it has something to do with $7.5MM
that could be better spent elsewhere. CDavis and TT together won’t get paid that much in the next 3 years
"Hamilton, it's chalk, not coke, you don't have get tripped up by it"- kevinkinsler Jun 1, 2010
such a devious smile
I wish he were doing that while mowing hitters down in 7 inning starts for us…
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jun 7, 2010 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions
amazing
i was about to post a comment about her dentia, never thinking that someone would have already pointed out the mess going on in there….
at least i checked this time.
kudos to you
by sam in so cal on Jun 7, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
They aren't going to go with a 3 man bench
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
a 4th outfielder that's not already the DH (Murph)
plus a backup Catcher plus a backup infielder, if the infielder can handle 1B or the DH/4th outfielder can handle it…I can see it as “doable” but not with our health and construction
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jun 7, 2010 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
huh?
“A 5.34 ERA and a 5.73 FIP isn’t the sort of performance from a starting pitcher that usually has folks demanding blood, particularly when the pitcher in question has a track record of dominance”
A 5.34 ERA and a 5.73 FIP is not good from someone with Harden’s record of dominance. Do we need to have you submit to a drug test?
Thank you Houston for drafting Jason Castro.
Rich Harden "Debacled!"
A 5.34 ERA and a 5.73 FIP is not good from someone with Harden’s record of dominance.
I believe the point AJM is making, and please correct me if I’m wrong, is that someone with a history of dominance should be given a given a little more leniency. Harden’s past success is reason to believe he can make some adjustments and improve upon his current results.
However, I think this problem is magnified because Harden throws some many pitches. The best case scenario feels like 6 IP from Harden. If he isn’t pitching well you are looking at 3-5 innings which is absolutely kills our bullpen. Also, Harden has looked hittable this year.
"Also, Harden has looked hittable this year."
This, of course, is one of the biggest problems with the guy. He’s not going to his FB as an out pitch on those rare occasions when he gets ahead in the count.
Is 1/3 of the season not enough time for him to
make adjustments?
Thank you Houston for drafting Jason Castro.
I don't have an answer to that question.
However if this is club is still in it in August, we can’t have someone pitching like this in the rotation.
Is this a serious question?
The first couple of months are used for flyers (Kris Benson, Jason Jennings, etc). If they can’t hack it they are sent packaging. That is the time to try and catch lightning in a bottle. Even if they don’t pan out the team will have plenty of time left in the schedule to make up lost games.
As you approach August and September rosters start to tighten up. Each game up or down in the standings is much bigger when you get to the end of the season.
This is an example of a very poor way to make a counterpoint.
Replace “The first couple months” with “The first several months/The first half of the season/etc.” Now please reply to the point of the post, not some minor phrasing error.
I thought your were refering to this...
In Moneyball, Billy Beane says that the first two months are spent finding out what you have, the next two are spent getting what you need, and the team you want plays the last two months.
I don’t agree with you that the team should wait until August with Harden. If at any point the FO feels that Harden is not or won’t be one of the 5 best SPs then something needs to be done with him.
Right now he is pitching no better then what Holland could do and I would prefer to give Derek the ML experience then wait for the “Ace” Harden to show up.
Thank you Houston for drafting Jason Castro.
But your point about June being past that was kind of inane.
It’s June 7, not June 30, and we just now passed the one-third of the season mark, which would certainly fit Bean’s criteria.
The clock is definitely ticking on Harden, but right now it’s in the Rangers best interest to sit tight for a bit.
one and one and one is three
When it comes to pitching performances stabilizing, 1/3 of a season is a small sample.
But it’s still probably too risky to keep going with the option who’s been inferior so far.
Hasn't this year
just been an extension of his last 4 starts from 2009? Add in his “shoulder fatigue” that made him DTD at the end of last year and I think there is have plenty of info to make a decision.
Thank you Houston for drafting Jason Castro.
Yet
he crucified Sosa from the get go when he posted a 101 OPS+ as a low wage DH. It’s odd how he defends the objectively crappy (83 ERA+) $7.5 million pitcher, and goes apeshit over mediocre players like Sosa or Barajas.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
Sosa was barely over replacement level in 2007
That being said, if the Rangers were currently in rebuilding mode, and Harden was 38 instead of 28, and if Harden had been terrible in 2008 and been sitting on his couch out of baseball in 2009 instead of really, really good, then my reaction would probably be similar to my reaction to Sosa.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions
x
for me is the lack of starting pitcher innings eaten. I think Harden is at about 4.9 or so innings per game. He also seems to lose more long at bats that most of the other starting pitching on this teams does.
I soloed in the Mile High Club!
x
ed_price AL All-Star leaders: Morneau, Cano, Longoria, Jeter, Ichiro, Cruz, Crawford, V.Guerrero #Twins #Yankees #Rays #Mariners #Rangers
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
I just don't see what you can do with Harden
at least until Dutch is healthy. And now Scheps is taking a setback with this hammy thing.
Sigh.
"Drinks are on me if Lewis posts >168IP and an era lower than 3.86." by RangerMad on Jan 20, 2010 12:36 PM PST
Yeah,
I agree with that. I’m sick of Harden, but his replacement isn’t evident til Holland is ready to go.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
I'm wondering if the Schep/Perez things aren't just smokescreens
for keeping Schep’s innings down and giving Marteen some time to iron out mechanical kinks.
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!
Harden
Has a lower ERA+ in his time as a Ranger than Chan Ho Park had as a Ranger.
Seems to me, given that Harden burns less innings per start than CHP does, he deserves an equal amount of ire as CHP received.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
how much were we paying Chan Ho?
"Drinks are on me if Lewis posts >168IP and an era lower than 3.86." by RangerMad on Jan 20, 2010 12:36 PM PST
$13 million, I think?
"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty."- General George S. Patton
by Aquaman, Esq. on Jun 7, 2010 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
We are Paying Harden 7.5 million minimum
which is still big money. We could have had Byrd for almost 2 years with that much money.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
7.5 Million isn't big money...
…unless your only other comparisons are Texas Rangers.
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
by GhettoBear04 on Jun 7, 2010 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Well that makes sense, doesn't it?
The context of the last year makes a bit of a difference.
by brettgardner on Jun 7, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, but...
…I was trying to point out that the Rangers budget isn’t the only market force at play here. Coming into the season with good depth in the starting pitching staff but a lack of top-end talent meant there was a need. Considering Borbon’s quick rise, 40-man status, and what he showed in his brief time with the Rangers, I’m ok with them not committing money to someone who could theoretically have been the 4th or 5th best OF on this team by midseason. It didn’t work out, but I’m not sure you can kill them for the process here.
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
We should have just signed
Marlon Byrd then. He was only 5 million a year.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
Well,
I would have. I still don’t see him being anything other than cheap filler. I don’t see anything he is naturally great at other than running fast.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
Seems like a poor message to send your minor leaguers
Come to the bigs and post a .367 wOBA in your rookie 1/3 of a season, and we’ll still sign a low risk, medium reward player to a multi-year extension, stifling any chance you have at playing in the Bigs the next two seasons.
(Despite the fact that we gave you a 40-spot when you were drafted).
Re-signing Byrd didn’t make any sense except in retrospection.
I still think
it was a silly draft pick. The questions about him when he was drafted are still the questions we have about him now. Can’t walk, can’t hit for power, no arm, mediocre fielder.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
Really?
Using the 35th pick of the draft on Borbon was “silly”?
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Using the 35th pick on a guy with that many questions is silly in my book...
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
Every draft
the guy picked at 35 has questions. It would have been silly to pick Borbon at 17 or 24, but hardly at 35.
one and one and one is three
Personally
I’d rather take a pitcher in the first round than any Hitter I worry about getting on base.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
all pitchers have questions, though
and the attrition rate is atrocious. From a value standpoint I’m not sure that’s any smarter especially since they had already taken two upside HS pitchers by that point.
one and one and one is three
Yes they have attrition rate
but its not any worse than a hitter with hitting questions.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
Do guys picked at 35 have this many questions??
Especially college guys who get a spot of the 40 right away?
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
I've done this before...
…but here are the best major leaguers ever selected at #35:
Johnny Damon
Mark Langston
Mark Bellhorn
Jason Marquis
Brian Hunter
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, they do
Come on. Borbon had a good rep for defense, speed, great contact hitter. His questions were arm and patience. Guys like that get drafted in the late first round and early supplemental every single year.
one and one and one is three
but he has a lot of the talent and potential
that should go around that slot
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jun 7, 2010 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I think
picking guys with offensive question marks, like strike zone command, in the first round and supplemental is silly.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
Well, here's the thing
Guys who play up the middle defensive positions who don’t have offensive question marks are generally off the board in the first dozen picks or so.
If you want to restrict your selections from picks 15-60 or so to corner guys or pitchers, then that’s an option, but I don’t think it makes sense to take a third of all players off the board there.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions
But didn't he have defensive question marks as well?
I seem to remember there being warts all over his game when we picked him.
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
Other than his arm, no
He was projected to go in the first round. Keith Law had him as the #23 player in the draft.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Failing memory I guess..
I just remember being very disappointed in the pick, and not being alone in that opinion at the time.
Of course, it could have been Mayberry carryover.
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
The reason everyone was disappointed
was that we had been hearing for weeks that the Rangers may draft him at #17. So the “Borbon is terrible!!!” meme had been well established here.
When they got him at #35 people forgot that this is a guy who was supposed to go 15 picks higher. He was universally considered the best college outfielder of a weak college class that year.
Borbon wasn’t a bad draft pick – he was actually a very good and lucky pick. And anytime that a supplemental round player can get to the majors in 3 years you did a good job drafting.
Go Rice Owls!
Exactly, he was a slider who offered good value
Without revisionist history, there was hardly a more obvious pick there, was there?
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Some people wanted Corey Brown
The A’s drafted him. He’s a COF with speed, power and walks, who is at AAA right now, but doesn’t appear likely to ever make enough contact to be a major league regular.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions
I thought it made sense
If you are a team with an $80-90 million budget.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I think what made no sense
was going into a season where you plan on competing without a good backup plan to a rookie. I don’t really consider an injured Endy Chavez all that great of a backup plan.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
A backup plan...
…that involves Hamilton playing CF every day isn’t much of a backup plan.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions
SSS, but I don't care, I'm saying it
Josh’s career UZR/150 at CF is better than Cameron’s so far this season
For me, SSS doesn't matter for Hamilton
Hamilton is a good CF who just shouldn’t play the position because of his health. If we had to go for an extended period of time with Hamilton in CF, that’s not ideal, but he isn’t hurting the team.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
If you recall...
…I was clamoring for Mike Cameron, in no small part because I thought this team needed a fallback option for CF.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep
I also recall you asking in a podcast what our CF backup plan was.
I wish we had taken Byrd, given his cost and OF flexibility.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
I was for letting Byrd go and giving the job to Jules.
He had a .376 OBP in his first swim and was showing some pop and discipline. On a team that’s on a small market payroll (fuck you in the mouth 10 times, Tom Hicks), this was a move that needed to be made.
I don’t know what Jules is going to be now but I don’t think he should be here this year if the goal is to win. He’s not going to change his approach (2 walks / 170 plate appearances) until he’s faced with the consequences of OKC.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
Byrd's problem wasn't the dollar, it was the perceived length of the contract
If he’d take like a one-year $5-6 million offer to stay, I think most of us would have been very happy.
Really
I probably would have given him the contract the Cubs gave him, if the budget had been there.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not sure
…that teams with even a $100 million dollar payroll can afford to spend $6 million dollars on a 4th/5th CF.
I’m also not sure that the Rangers payroll crosses the $100 million dollar barrier for the next 2-3 years.
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
What about
Byrd’s time hear makes you think he was a 4th/5th OF?
He was easily the 4th or 5th best position player every single year he was a Ranger.
I love that the same folks who think every crappy prospect needs 1500 PAs to prove themself aren’t convinced by 1500 PAs as a Ranger by Byrd.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
With a 100 million dollar payroll
Byrd would have been a great player at the price here. With him and Murphy, you have 2 potential regulars off the bench ready to step in.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Given that
he ended up getting Cat money, I’d have loved to have had him.
Then again, I’ve never really been sold on Borbon for my often stated reasons.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
If we had the money to spend this offseason
I would have liked to see Byrd come back on the deal he signed (assuming he would have taken a similar deal to resign here). The problem was that they had little money to spend and took the risk on Harden and Oliver, which I can’t complain about, instead of signing a player for depth.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
We had the money to spend.
We just chose to spend an inordinate amount on a risky player like Harden.
Personally, I had hoped we would have included Borbon in a trade for someone before the offseason. I was trying to throw him in every CF trade Adam came up with or the trade for Halladay.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
The Millwood Trade is all very murky
because “the money was there” if JD would have signed Byrd instead of Harden.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
And if we had traded Millwood and signed Byrd
We would have had a surplus of OF’s and if our staff wasn’t great, everyone would be screaming about how JD had spent too much money in an area of depth when we had other needs to address.
I advocated letting Byrd go.
I was just pointing out that the money was there to sign him.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
yeah
the bullpen decimation under Harden is my biggest annoyance. He hasn’t generally put up such horrid outings that the Rangers have no chance of winning his starts. But his outings have been short, so even if the Rangers do eventually win, the long-term cost is quite high.
Every once in a while it’s probably better to have an 8 inning start ending in a loss than a 4 inning start that ends up a win but requires Oliver, O’Day, Feliz, Ray and Frankie all to pitch.
Go Rice Owls!
Norm just dropped this, and it is true, I checked
The bullpen threw 99 pitches yesterday…99!!!
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
That's because the bullpen was poor
They threw 4 innings. That’s 25 pitches per inning.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, I know that.
I was more commenting about the bullpen burnout that is surely approaching.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Quick question...
What would Harden’s ERA and FIP be if Distin Nippert hadn’t personally stranded eight runners inherited from Harden, including a double play in Detroit? O’Day has also stranded two runners inherited from Harden via the double play.
In a way they do.
Since they weren’t struck out, in inflates your FIP by having the rate of K/IP go down. And if they were walked, certainly they’re damaging. But the book is closed once you’re out of the game.
Should point out, the runners scoring while you're in the game don't count against FIP, either.
Save for the home runs. The formula just looks at the run value of walks, home runs and strikeouts over innings pitched. Since MLB pitchers by and large have pretty similar ability over large samples to turn balls in play in to outs, it’s a much better predictor of what should have happened and what will happen going forward in ERA than ERA itself.
I think the "heightened level of hostility" comes from the fact that most of us were expecting him to come in and dominate, be a true #1 that we haven't had in a long while...or atleast be close to it....
but instead, he can’t get outta the 5th and he’s taxed the bullpen each outing.
I really don’t see how hard it is to see that.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jun 7, 2010 11:21 AM CDT reply actions
Yeah
I guess Adam thinks we should be thrilled with these performaces. And obviously he has a leg to stand on—I remember mass rejoicing when Kam Loe was blowing dick.
by brettgardner on Jun 7, 2010 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
x
I guess Adam thinks we should be thrilled with these performaces.
Yes, that’s exactly what I think.
Because the choices are:
1) Hostility
2) Being thrilled
Very astute observation there.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Thanks dad.
I forgot the middle option: reflect carefully on the mind-numbing averageness of Harden and then plant our thumbs up our asses because we’re sports fans who forgot we’re not supposed to care that much.
by brettgardner on Jun 7, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Uh huh
It is reassuring to see you have me so well pegged.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
I'd hope not
Dirkatron already has a thread for that this morning… :)
"I'll always keep in my heart the good times I've had here, the strong and loyal support of the fans in the tough times and the love from Liverpool. I have no words to thank you enough for all these years and I am very proud to say that I was your manager.
"Thank you so much once more and always remember: You'll never walk alone."
-- Rafa Benitez
In the innings Harden actually pitches he's well below average
Combine that with the fact that he’s completed 7 innings once, 6 innings twice, and fewer than 5 innings 4 times I’d say he’s probably one of the worst starting pitchers in the American League right now.
exactly, Feldman has pretty much sucked donkey all year,
but at least from time to time he can go 7 or 8 innings.
Bunting makes me spooge in my pants!
but she's shown the ability to turn that around
not that he’s been anywhere NEAR consistent with it…
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jun 7, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Just so you know
I’d be demanding blood out of almost any 5.73 FIP, 5.72xFIP pitcher after 2 months.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
Although, if he was a young guy, I'd look at what might happen in his future and see some promise.
But in a year we’re competing, I’d probably hope the team would be looking for improvement.
how can you have expected him to dominate?
If they signed Cliff Lee, I’d expect him to dominate.
If they signed Roy Halladay, I’d expect him to dominate.
If they sign Rich Harden for about the same amount of money that Nate Robertson is making, well… I don’t really EXPECT him to dominate. I hope he dominates, but then I shrug my shoulders and move on when he doesn’t.
Go Rice Owls!
Agree
That’s certainly true. He was a bit of a flyer.
Unrelated: I think Harden rubs people wrong because he seems cocky (without the production to back it up),
"I wish to believe. But my belief is a graveyard." - Charles Bukowski
Eh, I don't think he's been here long enough for people to think he's cocky.
I don’t think I’ve heard the guy speak myself. I just bask in his sweaty dreaminess from a far…
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
I think a lot of it...
…is the same reason C.J. Wilson and Ian Kinsler tend to rub people wrong.
His body language and demeanor come across poorly.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't get to watch most Rangers games
and I don’t hate Harden, Wilson, or Kinsler, so you may have a point.
But at the same time, the frustrating thing about Harden, to me, is that he walks batters. It brings back that feeling of inevitable loss every time he starts. You know, the one where in it is the top of the 4th, Rangers up 4-1, and things look kind of good. Then Harden walks the leadoff guy. You think “Harden, don’t do that”. Then he walks the second guy. You think “uh-oh” Then, after a popout or something, he walks the next guy. Then next thing you know the Rangers are losing 6-4, the momentum has swung.
Replace Harden with any random pitcher from the 2000-2005 Rangers. The story makes sense.
Go Rice Owls!
Exactly
He’s not Deion Sanders. But, I would say his physical demeanor, spoken word or not, is filled with intense levels of self-assuredness. Which is fine, if you back it up.
"I wish to believe. But my belief is a graveyard." - Charles Bukowski
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
We have a goddamn poster who says “DFA his ass” all the damn time. People never hesitate to say someone totally blows and should be traded/demoted/cut.
I mean, were people really pulling their punches with McCarthy?
by brettgardner on Jun 7, 2010 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Maybe Harden's good looks?
McCarthy is gangly looking. Perhaps people just don’t relate to someone like Harden, who seems so well put-together AND seems to fail with ease, not stress (a sign of intense self-confidence). Seems to me most people want a modest disposition about 90% of the time. I would never DFA Harden. The experiment with him is not over. In fact, we’re 8-4 during his starts. Lucky or not, insignificant or not, we’re fine. The bullpen will survive.
"I wish to believe. But my belief is a graveyard." - Charles Bukowski
He is near
a fucking 6 FIP. It has nothing to do with his looks. He just objectively sucks.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
SSS
You can’t pull him yet. There’s no need to. Maybe when Holland comes back.
"I wish to believe. But my belief is a graveyard." - Charles Bukowski
It's hard for me to see JD
just cutting Harden loose.
JD is a lot of things including stubborn.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
You'd release your 7.5M pitcher 1/3 into the season
Knowing that once he gets his BB rate down, he could turn into a #2/3 before the end of the year?
Seems short-sighted
I'm not advocating moving Big Dick to
the pen or cutting him. I just don’t see JD copping to a mistake – see Ron Washington.
I also don’t think the light is going to suddenly go on for Harden. He’s been mostly terrible since Spring Training. I think the outcry would be much louder (and it’s pretty loud now) if the team hadn’t gone 8-4 in his starts. By all rights, we should be 4-8 in those games.
I think it’s going to come down to making a choice between who you can live with every 5 days between Harden & Feldman.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
I agree with your predictions on how it might turn out
I just think it doesn’t make sense to call JD stubborn for not cutting him until it makes baseball sense to cut the guy.
But, you’re right, JD has been stubborn (as most managers are).
stubborn?
Because he doesn’t make moves you would make? Is Ryan and the rest of the front office also stubborn for not firing Washington?
Right now it just makes zero sense to ditch Harden. Zero. You have no one demonstrably better to take his place, though I suppose you could put Harrison in there, but he’s kind of a crap shoot as well. And they need to take their time with Holland and make sure he’s completely healthy.
Not to mention that Harden has ace upside if he simply gets command of his stuff. How on earth does that equal stubborn? You favor decisiveness over common sense every time.
one and one and one is three
"Ace upside" ??
We’ve seen it once in 12 starts against a weak offensive team in a very pitching friendly setting.
I haven’t advocated shit-canning Harden because I’m not convinced Holland is going to come back healthy and effective this season no matter what we’re being told.
In the Season of It’s Time, when a lot of jobs are on the line (including JD’s) I don’t see him copping to this mistake.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
See Padilla, Vicente...
I know the dynamic this year is different, but JD has hardly shown a reluctance to cut bait if it gets bad enough.
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
It took JD nearly 3 years to get rid of VP.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
Because Padilla was good.
'Waiting for a girl and she gets me into fights
Waiting for a girl we get drunk on Friday night'
Because the team
had so many other options at that time? Padilla generally ate innings at least, and the team had nowhere near the depth they do now.
If they ran the team according to your suggestions, they’d DFA every guy who pitched poorly for a month or so and have nothing left. And no one would sign here.
one and one and one is three
So you're just going to throw out Harden's history
He’s pitched very well whenever he’s been healthy in previous years. This is the first time he’s been (apparently) healthy but pitched poorly for this lengthy a stretch.
If you’re not advocating getting rid of Harden for the obvious reasons, then just what is it Daniels is supposed to do? Make some sort of public statement about how the deal was a mistake but right now their hands are tied?
Your points just make no sense. The team really has no option right now but to let Harden keep pitching and hope he improves, at least until Holland looks healthy again.
one and one and one is three
If Harden's next 12 starts are equal
in “quality” to his first 12 starts, I don’t think JD will simply let him go.
Interesting thought…would you try to hold up the A’s by dangling Harden in front of them?
That would take balls.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
Why would they want him, though?
I think any team would have an awfully hard time just releasing a player in Harden’s situation. He has a stellar history of top of the rotation pitching with major health concerns. A major asset when healthy — until this year. Impossible to trade for any value whatsoever, intriguing enough that you might kick yourself if you let him go and he figures it out with another team.
If he figures it out he’d be the equivalent of a great trade deadline pickup. A guy with that much talent can’t just be tossed on the refuse pile, weighing two months more heavily than an entire career. It really makes me think he’s injured or that his injuries have caused him to have quirky mechanics to compensate. DL him.
one and one and one is three
It's not a mistake yet
I mean, to this point, at this time, it is a mistake. As was said above, if you evaluate at season’s end, Harden could end up the best pitcher on this staff. Did he show it in only 1 start? Yes, for one complete start. But he hasn’t been pure crap other than that. He shows complete dominance for innings at a time, just can’t show it over a complete game other than that one start. I think it’d be foolish to dump him now. I think he’s the most talented starter in our rotation right now. And at the same time, I think he’s struggling the most. To dump that talent 1/3 into the year when we want to compete is what I would say “a mistake,” and to evaluate the year at this point and say “it’s done” is a mistake.
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jun 7, 2010 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
This idea that Harden still has "ace upside" if he regains his command
Is just not true. His 4-seamer isn’t an out pitch anymore; and his secondary stuff has failed him too. Truth is, this guy doesn’t get the swings and misses he used to get, and without them, he’s fucking Oliver Perez.
Tell that to OAK.
He had it that day, maybe he comes around soon…
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
I disagree
Up his BB/9 to his career rate.
His FIP becomes 4.76 (about Feldman).
This assumes that instead of walking the hitter with his Ball 4 pitch, the hitter put the ball into play.
If you assume that some of those “strikes” were swung and whiffed at, his FIP gets much better (unless they were home runs, but his HR/9 is on par with his career rates).
His walks really are his problem
This also doesn't take into account the advantage of getting ahead of hitters
The dude needs to throw strikes
JD is stubborn...
We just don’t need to cut Harden, so if that makes JD a bad guy so be it. Why the hell would we get rid of him NOW? This season will be LONG________.
Harden is not horrible, he actually has some talent. Unlike Chan Ho, he might actually be decent or at least take us to July when we see how things are shaping up.
"I wish to believe. But my belief is a graveyard." - Charles Bukowski
that's a huge insult
cj is in a land of douche-ness by himself, and it’s a lot more than just his body language and demeanor
by sam in so cal on Jun 7, 2010 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
go suck an egg
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jun 7, 2010 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Mike Rhyner
He has started calling Harden the ‘Team Douche’ who is more worried about how tight his pants are than winning. Also, according to Mike, Harden just doesn’t give a damn.
by LoneStarBallUser on Jun 7, 2010 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Hard-hitting baseball analasys, that
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!
I've heard the refrain
that Harden doesn’t give a damn, and he is just rehabbing for his next contract from quite a few places.
He certainly doesn’t seem to have any idea where the ball is going tho.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
that's such a dumbass thought though
why would he get paid MORE money and MORE years after coming here and staying healthy but SUCKING? How could any pitcher possibly think that’s a good plan?
I’d be more inclined to think he’s afraid of letting his arm do it’s thing because he’s afraid of an injury that will cost him a shot at a contract. And if that’s the case, he’s gotta be sat down by Nolan and co. and given a stern talking to: either unleash the beast or pay the price – both now on this team, and in the future – whether with this team or not
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jun 7, 2010 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
The groundwork for that story...
…has been laid going back to spring training.
Maybe he does give a damn. Maybe he doesn’t. I imagine he’d get a lot more leeway if he looked as upset after every bad outing as Matt Harrison does, but because he looks like he doesn’t care, the assumption is that he doesn’t care.
That being said, I don’t know that that should even matter. Is he sucking right now because he doesn’t care? Could he be pitching better, if only he gave a damn? I doubt it.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions
How can he not give a damn *and* be just rehabbing for his next contract?
These seem mutually exclusive. If he blows all year long because he doesn’t care, that’s gonna affect that next contract.
If the contention is that he’s still partly hurt and is pitching cautiously or something so he doesn’t care about the results so long as he stays healthy… well, that just doesn’t make sense. I think it would be a better move financially to just not pitch until he’s fully healthy, so he doesn’t risk further injury.
Harden is a bit of a different case though
Harden was expected to dominate, but for only 20-25 starts of the season. He would then be DL’d the rest of the time. Instead, Harden looks like he can make a full season’s worth of starts, but without pitching well in any of them.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Exactly...
I REALLY don’t see how anyone doesn’t get why people are down on him. As opposed to those others guys set up as comps (Davis and Tea), this guy is a hired gun. And he’s basically come to town and failed to perform. Added to that, he’s actually drug everyone around him down by burning the pen and leaving his defense baking on the field for excrutiatingly long periods while guys hit BP off of him.
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
I think there's a difference between...
…being down on him, and saying he cost the Rangers a sweep yesterday (like Evan Grant did), or saying the Rangers should “cut the son of a bitch” like one of Rhyner’s helper monkeys did on the Hardline the other day, or the myriad of comments on the GDTs here or the DMN chats when he starts.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Ah yes
Those have long been the most respected sources of insight.
by brettgardner on Jun 7, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Considering the way the average sports fan thinks...
I’m glad to hear Adam call these people out for who they are. Although it doesn’t surprise me that the people at The Ticket are clueless, it does surprise me to hear that from Evan.
Who would have thought the year Harden actually stays healthy he completely sucks,
and we are begging for him to be injured.
Bunting makes me spooge in my pants!
Harden
Maybe instead of questioning the credibility/ulterior motives of Harden critics, we should just acknowledge that he has sucked, will likely continue sucking, and probably isn’t one of the best 5 options we have for our starting rotation.
Who is questioning their credibility or ulterior motives?
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
You're the armchair psych here.
I’m tired of compariing reactions to Harden’s suck with reactions to Davis’ suck, or anyone else’s suck for that matter. It’s all bullshit. Harden has failed. It is perfectly reasonable, after 60 innings of suck, to suggest that he not tie up a spot in our rotation anymore. Talk of why people have reacted differently to Harden or why they harbor such antagonism for him is an invitation to a frivolous sideshow, and you know it.
Robbie Erlin do what he do
5.0IP 5H 1R 1ER 1BB 3K
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
There does seem to be somewhat of a media dogpile (if you
count The Newberg as “media” and I do) being thrown on Harden. The Hard Line has been after him and EG kicks him in the nuts today.
He has pitched very mediocre (3 Game Scores of 50+ in 12 starts) and has also been a wrecking ball to the bully. The Rangers have been 8-4 in his starts but that’s beyond lucky and not going to last if he keeps pitching the way he has.
I don’t believe they will just kick him to the curb if this keeps up.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
That 8-4 record is most definitely lucky
I wonder what the Rangers record is on days after a harden start. I can see where burning up the bully the night before forces Warsh into sending relievers out there when he wouldn’t ordinarily want them….among other obvious negative impacts of burning up the bully…
What's the rumpus?
5-6
With the similarly under performing Feldman in that spot.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
I wonder if any of that is a carryover...
Having those two guys underperforming back-to-back can’t be good.
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
Here's some optimism in this thread of Harden hate
Matt Treanor is now rocking a 94 OPS+ while Max Ramirez is rocking a 110 OPS+. For you wOBA lovers, that’s a .328 wOBA for Treanor and a .352 wOBA for Max (average is .326). I don’t know if this will last all season, but right now, I like having production from the catcher position for a change.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
You don't know if it will last all season, eh?
Well, I know where my money is.
by brettgardner on Jun 7, 2010 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Brett Gardner with the zinger
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Salty at .270/.325/.470/.795 in OKC
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Jun 7, 2010 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
it is fortunate that they picked up thier production
or we would have been swamped with AJ Pierzynski rumors for the next week.
Thank you Houston for drafting Jason Castro.
LMAO
Did you check Treanor’s BABIP? .328 wOBA with a .244 BABIP (career .280). What the hell is he eating lately?
Make your own MMT jokes folks......
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
Good power and patience at the plate will do that
His LD rate has dropped a bit I believe, but his BABIP should still go up to make that BA a bit more respectable looking (not like its had that much of a negative effect on his production it seems).
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I just can't understand MATT TREANOR having this much production while being UNLUCKY on balls in play.
And he’s got 131 PAs, not the smallest sample for a hitter. The awesome discipline and solid line drive and contact rates deserve a lot of credibility at this point.
I mean, for all of LSJ’s hate of him, Treanor has worked out and it’s no guarantee he won’t continue to work out.
Hi everybody!
What’d I miss?
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
Man U owners face $1.6-billion in debt
Glazer also owns the Bucs…so I suppose we can commiserate with some other fans.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Question...
so let’s say Holland is okay to come back in two weeks. If you won’t take Harden out of the rotation then who gets bumped?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I think that scenario is unlikely
He just played catch yesterday. He’s not likely to be ready to go on a rehab assignment for at least two weeks.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm hopeful that Holland is healthy
and effective by the ASB.
That’s a scary injury and I keep waiting for the other shoe (the real stinky one) to fall.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
"Now run along, my question was for Jamey and not the diminutive, sawwed off little twerp from Arkansas who no longer sees the team up close."
I think you cross that bridge when it comes
Take your time and make sure Holland is really healthy, consider Harden your 5th starter until then and see how he’s progressing.
one and one and one is three
God, one great start
and we’re going to put Hunter on a pedestal? I know you weren’t serious, and I appreciate Hunter’s big league success but one start shouldn’t make people forget his long term outlook as a 3 or 4th starter.
one and one and one is three
Well, I wasn't looking
to make a multi-paragraph in depth post. Just a drive by.
one and one and one is three
Already posted
Man U owners face $1.6-billion in debt
Glazer also owns the Bucs…
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Is this just
a case of Americans not knowing how to run futbol teams or are all futbol teams in debt?
Thank you Houston for drafting Jason Castro.
Harden's performance is going to garner that sort of talk if you think you can do better in the organization.
And once Derek Holland is healthy, I think we can do better from within the organization.
Assuming....
…that C.J. stops his slide, Feldman doesn’t get worse, and no one gets hurt between now and then.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Not really.
You can pick a guy—any guy—on our AAA staff, plug him in, and get Harden-level production right now.
See
This is what I’m talking about, when I say people are irrational about Rich Harden.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Harden has been no better than replacement level, and we have arms in AAA (maybe not every arm, but multiple arms nonetheless) who can perform at the level he's performed thus far.
Do you disagree? Do you think his performance has been better than what we’d project for, say, Kirkman?
That's a fair point.
And I definitely overstated my point. But we have multiple arms that would project to replacement level or better if they came up today.
but some of those guys
have a greater than zero chance of completely blowing up if put into a major league rotation right now. I don’t think it would be wise for a team to expect any of them to outpitch Harden. It could happen.
one and one and one is three
Is the implication that Harden has a zero chance of blowing up in a major league rotation right now?
No, but that the upside of Harden
vastly exceeds that of those in AAA, and those in AAA are in AAA for a reason.
one and one and one is three
If Harden is healthy right now...
Then that upside is a mirage. We’ll be chasing it until August, and it will not materialize.
why?
How can you be more certain than a MLB front office in making that statement?
one and one and one is three
I'm not certain of it.
But the swing and miss numbers are not at all striking (pardon the pun) this year.
Also, I don’t believe that the Rangers FO not doing something is necessarily evidence of their belief that Harden is one of the five best options for their rotation. His long leash may have a lot to do with something AJM brought up a few weeks ago; namely, that you can’t just dump a FA signing to the curb if he doesn’t hit the ground running because that may negatively affect your ability to sign future FAs.
well, and right now
who would replace him? As frustrated as we are by Harden, I’m quite sure the Rangers are even more put out. But right now, they really can’t do anything. They simply have to let this play out unless he is injured.
one and one and one is three
I'm not even necessarily advocating that we replace him right now.
I’m just making the following points:
1. Harden sucks. Talk of whether people are being too critical of Harden because of his attitude is a meaningless sideshow. (I, for one, was enthusiastic about signing him in the offseason, and could not care less about his mannerisms on the mound when he’s going through a rough stretch. I just want him to stop sucking, which doesn’t look likely.)
2. Harden’s performance has been league replacement level. We have arms in AAA who can reasonably be expected to produce at the level he’s produced thus far.
3. Harden’s performance is unlikely to improve because he’s not missing enough bats. This is so even if he does rediscover the strike zone.
I'd chase it before calling up someone from the minors who COULD be replacement level.
If the best you can do is merely replacing what Harden has done, there’s no reason not to stick with Harden on the off-chance he pitches like he has done in the recent past.
I doubt you could with Mathis.
"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty."- General George S. Patton
by Aquaman, Esq. on Jun 7, 2010 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I assume, then, that you'd prefer Harden to, say, McCarthy?
Once McCarthy is ready to return, of course.
Harden over Holland too?
McCarthy
Supposedly being moved to the bullpen.
Holland isn’t at AAA, he’s on the d.l.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions
I know McCarthy is headed to the bullpen.
My question is whether you personally think Harden is the one who should be headed to the bullpen.
Given that...
…he’s not likely to be ready to return to the major league rotation until a month from now, I don’t have any idea how anyone can be expected to answer this question.
The last year and a half, there’s been a lot of fretting about how we’re going to find space in the rotation for someone, and inevitably, that situation ends up solving itself because someone pulls something or tweaks something or sucks.
When Holland is ready to come back, sometime in July, we can see what the situation is then and make a decision.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Fair enough.
I assume that your concern re: not letting an FA get his feet under him would give way to your concern about competing for the division at that point, right?
I think everyone here
would be ok with Holland replacing Harden if Harden is still pitching like this when Der Hollander is gesund again.
one and one and one is three
you are assuming the first four games are the rule rather than the exception
quite possible that CJ remembered he was CJ
by sam in so cal on Jun 7, 2010 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Hopefully this isn't the beginning on the "holy crap I'm pitching a lot of innings" phase..
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
I'm not going to bet on Feldman getting worse.
Ceej sliding that far down might happen, but he has a long way to go to be what Harden’s been this season.
Buster Olney reports
the White Sox are “open for business”. Mark Buehrle gains 10 and 5 rights on July 6…hmmm.
one and one and one is three
He has been pretty bad so far this year though...
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
yeah, and nothing in his numbers suggests why
His FIP is 4.36, maybe just unlucky?
one and one and one is three
I'm not sure how that would affect his FIP.
It could in some way that doesn’t come immediately to mind.
his stuff isnt swing and miss right now.....
i would imagine it would not take much. seems like his trade value is at an all time low…he isnt fooling anybody..did have some good starts against FLA and TOR.
His stuff hasn't really ever been
swing and miss. 5 K’s per 9 in his career.
one and one and one is three
i'd rather try to get
matt thornton..but there is probably no way they’d deal him..buehrle’s contract is gynormous also…too much.
Jeff Suppan and his 50 hits in 31 IP are now available after the Brewers cut his ass
“The Milwaukee Brewers have released struggling pitcher Jeff Suppan(notes) during the final year of the richest contract in team history.”
Someone pointed out on Twitter...
…that Suppan and GMJ have the same agent, who deserves much praise for the contracts he got those guys.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 7, 2010 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions
The Brewers did get 29 wins from Suppan for only 42 million...
I guess compared to Chan Ho that looks like a bargain…..
How are the Royals allowed to
‘negoiate’ a predraft deal with Grandal whern they have the #4 pick?
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
Thank you Houston for drafting Jason Castro.
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