The Case FOR the Molina/Ray Trade
By now you've probably heard - The Rangers have traded RP Chris Ray and a PTBNL to the Giants for C Bengie Molina. On the surface, this looks (to me anyway) like we're trading our suck for their suck, which sucks because we have a non-sucky catcher that doesn't need his playing time split more than it already is. But let's look at it a little deeper. Is this a hard case to make? Sort of. I'm not trying to say this is the Teixeira trade, but it's not exactly...well, think about that crappy Rangers trade that you always bring up when you're trying to make the case that a certain GM is terrible. It's not that trade, either.
Let's get this out of the way: You will not find the words grittiness, leadership, or Veteranocity™ in this post. I tend to value these more than the average LSB-er, but my objective is to use the numbers to tell the story.
We'll start with comparing Bengie to our own catchers currently on the 25-man. If you're like me and you looked up all their numbers as soon as you heard, they're probably still fresh on your mind and you'll be able to recognize them when you see them. Just try to keep an open mind.
Catcher A: .257/.312/.332, wOBA: .284 (not good at all), ISO: .074, BABIP: .269, LD%: 17.3 (sort of unlucky, but not terribly so), K%: 9.4
Catcher B: .237/.315/.378, wOBA: .308, ISO: .141, BABIP: .254, LD%: 18.6 (pretty unlucky), K%: 17.9
Catcher C: .217/.341/.348, wOBA: .316, ISO: .130, BABIP: .277, LD%: 10.2 (pretty lucky), K%: 31.9
Catcher C is wOBA-ing better than the others, but he's been pretty lucky. You have to like the gap between AVG and OBP, but the BB/K ratio is 0.55.
Catcher B is the most well-rounded in my opinion, and his stats are likely to look a little better as he regresses (progresses?) to the mean.
Catcher A is not looking so hot, but at least he has the low K% working for him. He also has the highest BB/K of the group at 0.74. B is at 0.55.
A = Molina. B = Treanor. C = Ramirez.
But wait, you say. This is supposed to make the case FOR the trade. Almost everything you're posting says otherwise. Two things.
First, park adjustment. The wOBAr's for each player:
Molina: .312
Treanor: .329
Ramirez: .307
Treanor is still the clear leader here. When you consider that Molina's regression will likely result in an improvement while Max's will be the opposite, the case is made that Molina > Max, at least offensively. Let's also put to rest the notion that Bengie is a "free swinger." He's simply not, and he looks even more disciplined when compared to Ramirez.
Second, in order for this trade to be considered worthwhile, Bengie doesn't have to be better than Treanor, he just has to be better than Max, which I believe he is. Now, if Wash falls in love with him and starts playing him 5 days a week, we have a problem. We'll discuss this more when we get to Chris Ray.
Defensively, the report is that Molina's skills have declined. I don't know much about defensive metrics, especially for catcher, but I have faith in the good people at Beyond the Boxscore, and this chart seems to confirm that suspicion. You will notice his close proximity to Max Ramirez at the bottom of the table.
In summary, I see Molina as another Max Ramirez, just older and with (much) less strikeouts. If we see a 60/40 or similar split with Treanor taking the majority of the starts, I'm okay with that.
Still not convinced? Me neither, at least not until we start talking about what we gave up, or more accurately, which player we suckered the Giants into taking.
Chris Ray doesn't just suck. He sucks golf balls through a garden hose. In 46 games, Ray has pitched 43.1 innings. His K/9 and BB/9 are both 4.55, which makes K/BB a simple calculation, so he's got that going for him. (Really not, though. Not one of those is a good number. He's 8th worst among qualified RP's in K/9 and 7th worst in K/BB.) Because of this, his FIP is a gaudy 5.29 (Bottom 20 among qualified relievers, which includes the likes of Trevor Hoffman and Bob Howry), and his xFIP is even higher at 5.88 (5th worst among qualified relievers). This might be attributed to his high strand rate (I'm not sure how xFIP is calculated) of 81.4%. His BABIP is an insane .214, though the LD% of 11.4 actually suggests he's been UNlucky. His career numbers are .279 and 18.3%, so something's up. He's added a mildly effective curveball that he throws 8% of the time, so maybe that accounts for some of it. This may be the only thing keeping him from the distinction of being hands down the worst reliever in the league.
Let's go back to one of the first things I said about Chris Ray. He has 46 appearances. In other words, he's pitched in almost 60% of the Rangers' games. I don't know how many of these count as high-leverage (maybe somebody can help me with that?), but anecdotally, I'm sure we can all remember at least one time where we have screamed, "Chris Ray? WHY GOD WHY?!" What this amounts to is JD taking one of Wash's toys that he shouldn't be playing with away from him. Is it possible that he gave him another Chinese toy with lead paint all over it? Possibly. Washington loves him some gritty veterans. But since Bengie Molina is just another Max Ramirez, I see this as addition by subtraction.
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Good work rlb
It’s a marginal upgrade and gives a little insurance against injury while giving up, as the author pointed out, a big bag of suck.
"Drinks are on me if Lewis posts >168IP and an era lower than 3.86." by RangerMad on Jan 20, 2010 12:36 PM PST
RLB
A Giants fan here, just curious to see the reaction from your side of the story. I think your last point, about “taking one of Wash’s toys that he shouldn’t be playing with…” mirrors exactly the thinking of most Giants fans about Bochy and Molina. Sorry to hear that Washington is as much of a veteranophile as Bochy. I know we’re pretty tired of it, so we feel your pain.
When used occasionally, Bengie Molina can be a useful player for you guys. He will definitely be popluar in the clubhouse, and I’d expect the pitchers to enjoy working with him. As a baserunner, you’ll want to pinch-run for him whenever possible; he is indeed the slowest man in baseball.
I’m wondering how the inclusion of Michael Main affects your views of this trade? What should we Giants fans expect from Main?
As a Giants fan, I’m mostly focused on the NL, but I’ve always had soft spot for the Rangers and I always hope they do well. Go Rangers! Lets agree to meet in the World Series… soon!
"Row(and) will come out of this. You stay with your guys and he is one of our guys." - Bruce Bochy 05-31-10
"...and with Titanic's transverse bulkheads and watertight doors, it renders this vessel practically unsinkable." - "Shipbuilder" magazine, 1912
If there was ever...
a Giants/Rangers World Series it would be like heaven on earth for my father and I.
That would be so much damn fun. I want that to happen. This year.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Great sig
I’m only a part-time prospector. Compared to a lot of the guys on here, I know nothing about the minor league system. I have a generally favorable view of Main, so when I heard he was included, I was despondent (see my overreaction below). He wasn’t one of our top prospects, for sure, but he’s still a prospect, not just some random minor leaguer. I think you should be quite happy with the trade.
"We are no longer a ride at Six Flags, we are in contention to do some things that will make our lives complete. I have been waiting for this for a long time." - Chuck Morgan
Thanks for the response
I really do hope Molina does well for you this year. Like you, we’re just glad Bruce Bochy can’t pencil Molina into the Giants lineup every night now, giving Buster Posey a chance.
"Row(and) will come out of this. You stay with your guys and he is one of our guys." - Bruce Bochy 05-31-10
"...and with Titanic's transverse bulkheads and watertight doors, it renders this vessel practically unsinkable." - "Shipbuilder" magazine, 1912
from Jamey
Will your opinion of this deal change when the PTBNL is announced?
Fox Sports reporter Jon Paul Morosi writes this morning that the player to be named later in the Bengie Molina trade, which is expected to be made official today, will be a Class A pitcher. ESPN’s Buster Olney tweets (@Buster_ESPN) that the player will be a "mid-tier prospect." That would theoretically include candidates like Wilfredo Boscan, Jake Brigham, Fabio Castillo, Michael Main (who has been promoted to Frisco), Carlos Pimentel, Neil Ramirez, Braden Tullis, and Corey Young. Do not fear that a guy like Wilmer Font or Robbie Ross or Matt Thompson or Joe Wieland being part of this deal.
Trust in JD.
NeRa
will probably have every bit the MLB career of Main.
"Look, we're basically on earth to shit and fuck. So unless your job's to help people shit or fuck, it's not that important, so relax."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
This is true
That being said, Main has a higher ceiling and better probability of reaching the majors than NeRa, imo
He needs to put Erlin in the won't be traded part.
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
No kidding
I can’t even put into words the things that would happen if they traded Erlin as the PTBNL.
I didn't include Erlin because he's an Inky player.
Though I suppose he (or Bell or Blackwell or McBride, etc.) could be moved in August.
Still, Erlin is NOT going away in this deal.
by Jamey Newberg on Jul 1, 2010 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
The PTBNL definitely throws a monkey wrench into the equation
But it’s impossible to evaluate until we know who it is.
"We are no longer a ride at Six Flags, we are in contention to do some things that will make our lives complete. I have been waiting for this for a long time." - Chuck Morgan
What's awesome about this
Is that we got rid of ray before our luck ran out. He was a fantastic, cheap, 5th bullpen arm
Nice post
I’ve made peace with the Molina acquisition I guess. It is what it is.
I will say though, this trade still strikes me as somewhat superfluous and unnecessary. I’d like to think Ray could’ve just as easily been moved as part of a deal for somebody like Austin Kearns (who would serve an actual purpose on the roster) instead of an older, fatter, declining approximation of Max Ramirez. If the PTBNL turns out to be someone of any value it all (in other words anything more substantial than an org depth guy), I’d say this probably becomes a pretty poor deal.
"Take all that clubhouse [stuff] and all that, throw it out the window. Every writer in the country has been writing about that [nonsense] for years. Chemistry don't mean [anything]." - Jim Leyland
we do overvalue our own
Be prepared to be disappointed. This is one of those deals where we just have to trust the FO.
Trust in JD.
Fangraphs on the deal
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/rangers-add-nothing-in-molina/
At least the Rangers didn’t give anything up to get Molina. Chris Ray is a below replacement level reliever, projected for a 4.60 FIP and will likely perform worse, as he’s struck out 16 and walked 16 batters in 31.2 innings. However, this move likely precludes any improvement at the position. The Rangers also took on just under $2 million in salary when they probably could get similar production by recalling Jarrod Saltalamacchia from AAA. This move is just a headscratcher from Jon Daniels and the Rangers – it seems as if they’re acquiring a name more than anything else.
Can’t say I disagree with that last part.
"Take all that clubhouse [stuff] and all that, throw it out the window. Every writer in the country has been writing about that [nonsense] for years. Chemistry don't mean [anything]." - Jim Leyland
The question I have is about the salary
Is salary relief part of the trade or not? If not, why would the Rangers add a PTBNL in the deal? Maybe they were planning on dumping Ray anyways.
Lone Star Ball - 2010 -- It's time
I'm a believer
there's no change in the payroll amt
SF is covering Molina’s salary, and the Rangers are covering Ray.
The PTBNL is probably to cover the difference between Ray’s and Molina’s salary.
wow
Cots already has Molina on the Rangers roster.
acquired by Texas in trade from San Francisco 7/1/10 (Giants to pay Rangers about $2M cash in deal)
So who is the $2M PTBNL? it won’t simple be an “an org depth guy” like LSJ wishes.
Trust in JD.
Why not?
They’re getting a reliever who might possibly be good for a catcher they no longer want.
I don’t see why we’d have to give up more than a C/C+ prospect for that.
It’ll be more than a Hamburger, obviously, but nothing that’s gonna make us orgasm in disgust and then puke on a fucking housept or anything.
The 40 trumps all!
"WHY IS LIAM POPPINS STICKING. IT'S AN ABSURDLY BAD NICKNAME"
-LiamP(oppins)
I disagree
I am quite skeptical of any attempt to quantify catcher defense, even as thorough an attempt as the BTB stuff. There simply is no way to put a number to some of the stuff they have to do. Citing wOBA and defensive stats in arguing Treanor vs. Max vs. Molina is worse than useless.
Molina is certainly an upgrade over Max in game calling, being a veteran with a long standing good reputation in that area. Obviously the Rangers are prioritizing that skill over Max’s offensive talent. You don’t build a team just trying to maximize “production” at every lineup spot. Saying they could get similar “production” from Salty is idiocy. The Rangers targeted a skillset that they obviously feel Salty and the others either don’t have or can’t deliver right now.
I’m not excited about this trade, but hardly for the reasons cited there. It’s a marginal upgrade in a skill area that is well nigh unquantifiable.
Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!
one more thing on the BTB catcher defense post
Check the total run difference between Molina and the current Rangers options. Big whoop.
Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!
BtB rankings
It has been awhile since I looked at thier C defense methodology. My impression is that they are trying to take items that show up in a box score to determine the value of a catcher’s defense. The problem is that thier are too many things that a catcher does that do not get recorded in a box score.
Trust in JD.
I was about to agree with you
And then I realized that I did exactly this:
Citing wOBA and defensive stats in arguing Treanor vs. Max vs. Molina
Oh well, can’t win them all.
"We are no longer a ride at Six Flags, we are in contention to do some things that will make our lives complete. I have been waiting for this for a long time." - Chuck Morgan
Well, it's certainly not irrelevant
but it was obviously not the driving force in the decision making process on this particular trade. What I liked about what you did is you showed that the offensive difference is likely to be minimal. The Rangers are counting on a defensive upgrade with minimal impact on offense.
Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!
Isn't Molina projecting as a type A free agent?
Thought I remember reading that in a post yesterday.
Bunting makes me spooge in my pants!
Some Giants fan said that
But I don’t think we got verification
Lone Star Ball - 2010 -- It's time
I'm a believer
If he was a type A?
I certainly would
Lone Star Ball - 2010 -- It's time
I'm a believer
by Mark from OC on Jul 1, 2010 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions
No way he turns down arb
"Take all that clubhouse [stuff] and all that, throw it out the window. Every writer in the country has been writing about that [nonsense] for years. Chemistry don't mean [anything]." - Jim Leyland
Most players in that situation usually do
But this all may be moot, I am not even sure he is a type A. That would surprise me.
Lone Star Ball - 2010 -- It's time
I'm a believer
by Mark from OC on Jul 1, 2010 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions
He's old, fat, and unproductive
someone will sign him, but not to a bigger contract than he could earn in arb and probably not as a starter.
Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!
No one wanted to sign him last year
It’s doubtful they’d want to do it after the year he’s had so far this year, especially if they had to give up a 1st round pick to do so.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Are you going to offer him arb?
That’d be crazy, he’d accept and you’d be stuck with him.
Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!
Fanshot
Just kidding, man. Nice work.
Heavy is the head that eats the crayons...
LSB-Come for the baseball, stay for the Dirkatron raping!
You're about to draw my ire
"We are no longer a ride at Six Flags, we are in contention to do some things that will make our lives complete. I have been waiting for this for a long time." - Chuck Morgan
Save it for fantasy football
Heavy is the head that eats the crayons...
LSB-Come for the baseball, stay for the Dirkatron raping!
Just to be accurate ...
… that isn’t the music from Chariots of Fire. It’s a cheap knockoff. However, it was a funny bit by SportsCenter.
by northtexan95 on Jul 1, 2010 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions
i heard about that espn clip but never saw it
wow the espn guy was more annoying than i had imagined.
Definitely an odd but funny bit by espn
And just to be clear I have no idea about that gif… i saw it on McCovey Cove and stole it… made me laugh though
Good work, sir
My initial reaction to the trade was- eh, whatever. Judging by their career numbers thru 2009, if Bengie and Treanor each started 50% of the games the rest of the way, I’d expect Bengie to be slightly better than Treanor. Not by much, but a tad better. Certainly more power from Bengie. Of course, Bengie has been pretty bad in 2010, so that may be a moot point.
And your comparisons of Max-Bengie are well done. I understand that Max still has a short track record in MLB. And he’s never really been given the chance to play on a regular basis. I’m not saying he’ll never be productive, but I do know he was this team’s 3rd choice at catcher entering the season, and he has done very little to prove that he deserves significant playing time during a pennant race.
"Don't confuse the outcome that a decision produces with the intelligence that went into making that decision."--Tony LaRussa
This is a good trade, I wish people would realize it
(a) the FO has earned our trust, and we should not jumping up and down before we hear all the details.
(b) we are not adding salary
© we have another vet C, and anyone who thinks that Treanor was not going to begin getting very fatigued at some point this season with the starts he’s making is wrong.
(d) Most Importantly—JD was never going to be able to talk Ron Wash into not putting Ray in high-leverage situations because of how good (lucky) Ray’s results have been this year. His best option to force Ogando, O’Day ahead of Ray was to trade him.
(e) I know we all want Max Ram to become a 300/400/500 guy, but it’s not going to happen with him playing once a week, he should be developing in AAA
Great move.
Also, this is a weaker point, and maybe I'm looking too hard
But, I think with Beltre, Ogando, Feliz, and others with Spanish as their primary language, it’s going to be very helpful to have Molina around to talk pitching strategy.
I think Max speaks Spanish, too, but Molina undoubtedly knows the game better, and can help these less experienced pitchers more effectively in b/w pitches.
My brother pointed this out to me earlier
This move makes it much more unlikely that we go for Pierzynski. Chalk that one up in the W column.
"We are no longer a ride at Six Flags, we are in contention to do some things that will make our lives complete. I have been waiting for this for a long time." - Chuck Morgan
I hate your brother
But unfortunately for me, he’s right.
Heavy is the head that eats the crayons...
LSB-Come for the baseball, stay for the Dirkatron raping!
I'm going to guess the player is Braden Tullis
had his first start of the year last night and he was a 2009 draft pick, which could explain his PTBNL status. I can’t find the date he signed on last year.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
I can't wait for the day when Edwin Escobar and the PTBNL
are inexplicably studs in the Giants starting rotation.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
http://twitter.com/jimcallisBA
A baseball source says RHP Michael Main will be the PTBN who goes from Tex to SF in the Bengie Molina trade.
fact.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/06/rangers-giants-discussing-bengie-molina-trade.html
That's borderline retarded.
EFF
Well, there goes that.
"We are no longer a ride at Six Flags, we are in contention to do some things that will make our lives complete. I have been waiting for this for a long time." - Chuck Morgan
That was probably a little too kneejerk-y
But Main as the PTBNL does change things.
"We are no longer a ride at Six Flags, we are in contention to do some things that will make our lives complete. I have been waiting for this for a long time." - Chuck Morgan

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