Something to keep in mind on the Molina trade
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 6:37 PM CDT
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PrintFor the second year in a row, the Rangers overpaid for an old, washed-up catcher.
Last year they overpaid for Pudge Rodriguez, giving up Jose Vallejo and Matt Nevarez to get him.
This year, they overpaid for Benjie Molina, giving up Chris Ray and Michael Main to get him (and the roughly $1.75 million more that he's owed this year than Chris Ray is).
But part of the reason you have a stacked farm system is that, should you decide you have to make a move to get someone, and should the other side require an exorbinant price in order to part with that player, you can afford to pay the price.
Look...the Yankees wouldn't bat an eye at spending a few million dollars to add a player like Molina, if they decided it enhanced their chances of making the postseason and having success once they got there. They've got a huge budget, and a few million dollars is a rounding error.
Similarly, when it comes to the Rangers' farm system, Michael Main is the equivalent of a rounding error. He's a nice pitching prospect with upside, who looks like he has a decent chance of becoming a useful major league pitcher. And there are a couple of dozen guys in the system you could say the same thing about.
The Rangers can't spend money with the same sort of abandon that the Yankees can. But they are in a position where, should they decide it is necessary, they can afford overpay in terms of prospects -- particularly "mid-tier" pitching prospects -- to get a guy they feel like they need to win now.
This doesn't mean that the Giants didn't "win" this trade -- they basically paid $1.75 million for Michael Main, not an unreasonable amount for a pitching prospect.
But the Rangers parted with a guy whose departure is basically a blip on their prospect screen, to get someone to help shore up a glaring weakness.
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Well noone would blink twice if we threw him into a Cliff Lee package..
But Bengie Molina… i still can’t get over it.
by DShep on Jul 1, 2010 6:39 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
This
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
I appreciate your attempts to make people feel better.
But I don’t think they’re going to work.
This trade is just stupid.
"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty."- General George S. Patton
I see Murphy and a Baylor Jersey, so i assume these are Baylor People any ID on the
others (horse no ID required)
"I may have had a tough break, but I have an awful lot to live for." Lou Gehrig
heh horse
I believe that is LaceDarius Dunn in the center, who threw out the first pitch on Baylor Night at the ballpark last Friday. Next to him in the gold cap is Baylor President Ken Starr.
Not sure who the other guy is.
I disagree with the 'blip on a radar screen' thing
It implies a lesser value than a legitimate starting pitching prospect has, in my eyes.
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
Did you call the hypothetical hardware store and buy a theoretical chain saw?
Good point AJM
The proper conclusion to draw…
But of course, its much easier to YELL AND FREAK OUT AND ACT OVER THE TOP BECAUSE ITS THE COOL THING TO DO BITCHES!
"Hey Sanka, you can pee now... uuummm, too late...."
This used to be links to my websites... But the man got in the way, shut them all down... Damn the man... ~ Rangers Game Streams ~ Password: LSB123
by FormerLSBUser on Jul 1, 2010 6:42 PM CDT reply actions
As President of the Cool Club I approve of this message.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Cecilio's Guante on Jul 1, 2010 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions
That conclusion drawn...
still doesn’t make it a good trade.
by ghostofErikThompson on Jul 1, 2010 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions
This from the guy
that shed crocodile tears over the revelation that The Newberg was on the payroll.
BTW — AJM’s take on this deal seems a bit Newbergian. When’s the first check arrive?
by robert_d_wilfong on Jul 1, 2010 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions
is it too much to hope that benji will be a type b FA?
salutations and regards to the calm captain of this ship whilst the passangers and crew run around like lunatics.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
yeah... just thought about that...
and got scared.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
You could agree that...
…you’ll offer him arb and he’ll decline. That’s fairly common.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions
on the unlikely occurence that he'd decline arb
Who would be willing to forfeit a draft pick to sign him?
Useful players like Orlando Hudson had a hard time getting signed due to the draft pick it would cost, why would a team give away a pick to sign a backup catcher?
Hey Tom - It's over now, so do you know how - to pick up the pieces and go home?
If he's a Type B...
…he doesn’t cost another team a draft pick.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions
There are a lot of stupid GMs out there
if this trade is any real indication of JD we might have one too though
I think there is a good possibility, that Molina is a DOWNGRADE
Think about that, it’s very possible we gave away Main, and end up getting LESS production from Molina than what we would have gotten by just continuing to play Max & Traener.
Hey Tom - It's over now, so do you know how - to pick up the pieces and go home?
This is easily foreseeable.
The guy isn’t going to magically re-learn how to hit and move well enough to play good D because he’s coming to Texas. The idea that we gave Main away for a piece that has the very real potential of making a bad situation worse is what irks me.
"Ok, post your favorite moment of the Tom Hicks era
Mine is today when he sold the team." - t ball
He's depth...
He’s here because the Rangers became terrified that Max Ramirez would be starting five days a week if something happened to Treanor.
by ghostofErikThompson on Jul 1, 2010 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions
x
to get someone to help shore up a glaring weakness.
I’d feel so much better if I knew that was true.
x
But the Rangers parted with a guy whose departure is basically a blip on their prospect screen, to get someone to help shore up a glaring weakness.
Stop trying to play Smear Campaign.
Are the Rangers paying you too?
"Fuck Tom Hicks. There is no aspect of my baseball universe that man hasn't shit on."
"A win is a win. Kinda like banging a hogger on Spring Break. You’re glad hardly anybody saw you do it but at the end of the day you got laid."-- Josey Wales
Right.
"Fuck Tom Hicks. There is no aspect of my baseball universe that man hasn't shit on."
"A win is a win. Kinda like banging a hogger on Spring Break. You’re glad hardly anybody saw you do it but at the end of the day you got laid."-- Josey Wales
by TooLegitToQuit on Jul 1, 2010 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm trying to figure out if this is a bit or not
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Likewise.
"Fuck Tom Hicks. There is no aspect of my baseball universe that man hasn't shit on."
"A win is a win. Kinda like banging a hogger on Spring Break. You’re glad hardly anybody saw you do it but at the end of the day you got laid."-- Josey Wales
by TooLegitToQuit on Jul 1, 2010 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Are you seriously accusing me of being paid by the Rangers?
Particularly after I just said that no, I wasn’t?
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions
No.
"Fuck Tom Hicks. There is no aspect of my baseball universe that man hasn't shit on."
"A win is a win. Kinda like banging a hogger on Spring Break. You’re glad hardly anybody saw you do it but at the end of the day you got laid."-- Josey Wales
by TooLegitToQuit on Jul 1, 2010 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions
he probably thinks you are doing a bit
by being supportive of this move which doesn’t seem to make any sense whatsoever to a lot of people here. I can’t figure it out myself.
Hey Tom - It's over now, so do you know how - to pick up the pieces and go home?
Maybe if I constructed sentences better
And ran the blog. Maybe had the same respect you have. Maybe. Just maybe. Maybe.
Anyways. I hope both guys do well. I hope Molina gives us some nice gifs too. Maybe legging out a triple.
I'm just goofin' new boot goofin'
Sound reasoning
but i dont care. f this trade.
Charter member of the Dutch bandwagon
the last word in your sig is how I'd describe what has happened today.
I'm just goofin' new boot goofin'
its ironic
when i heard of the finished deal i was super pissed and texted a buddy of mine who asked about main venting about the deal. after reading all the negative backlash here it has had an adverse affect almost swayed me the other way. i have always been a huge fan of main from the day we drafted him and still hate to see him go but its not the end of the world.
Charter member of the Dutch bandwagon
Treanor Status
Does anyone know what his status is? If I recall, Josh/Tom were mentioning on the game last night that his knee did not look so good, and that they were ‘hopeful’ he could play tonight.
Is it possible Treanor may need some extended DL time?
If so, it may also explain the Rangers’ perceived willingness to overpay for a catcher of Molina’s ilk. I wouldn’t want to run with a platoon of Salty/Max for 2 weeks or so.
It is possible
He’s never caught more than 67 games in the majors. He’s never been asked to take on the sort of workload he is this year. And he’s 34 or 35 years old.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions
It's remarkable to me...
How quickly many folks have attached themselves to Treanor and think it obvious that he’s as good of an option as Molina for the second half of the season.
I doubt many of us have "attached ourselves" to Treanor.
He sucks. No doubt about it. He’s been better than Molina and so has Max. There’s also no doubt about that. Is Molina really a better option down the stretch than Matt, Max, and potentially Salty? If you have any real confidence in that, you’re miles ahead of me.
"Ok, post your favorite moment of the Tom Hicks era
Mine is today when he sold the team." - t ball
What we know, Athos.
Is that our FO people thought Max and Salty were basically unplayable at the C position down the stretch.
It's soooo incredibly depressing...
Given what either of those guys (but Salty especially) could have fetched for us two years ago.
Exactly
Two years ago we were talking about Teagarden for Buchholz, cause Tea was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Two years later, nobody here would rather have Teagarden behind the plate than Molina. Prospects are unpredictable.
Yes I LOATHE this trade, yes Main could have been used for better purposes, and yes Molina is not Buchholz or even remotely close, but I think the “sky is falling” mentality that is taking over here might be tempered with the thought that we can’t see into the future to know what Main will do and obviously the front office believes this was necessary to improve the club going forward.
Now, I would not have made this trade, I believe what we were rolling with was working just fine, but I also don’t get paid to evaluate player personnel, nor do I have people who do get paid to evaluate the players in my organization to consult before a trade was made; JD does and does.
So for all the armchair GMing we seem to be the masters of, I’m inclined to have faith in the people who, day in and day out, scrutinize and analyze every player in our system and potential players from other systems.
And remember, before you massacre me with hatings, I HATE THIS TRADE!!
You hear about the "Electric Arms", they're all the rage.
"If the Rangers have marked improvement in 2010, I'm going to need to give JD credit." Josey Wales, Feb. 10, 2010 11:45 AM CST
by sunlegend54 on Jul 1, 2010 8:11 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't hate this trade.
I am more and more convinced that we’re waiting for the other shoe to drop. If it doesn’t, I will be even less thrilled now than I am now. And I’m pretty damn disappointed now. But I don’t hate this trade. Not quite.
by Josh Garoon on Jul 1, 2010 8:15 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's the "shoring up a glaring weakness" part that I don't agree with.
What about the catching situation has been shored up?
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
I think there is a good possibility
that this move ends up turning a “glaring weakness” into an “unmitigated disaster”.
Molina looks really horrible, it’s likely that he gives us less overall production than what we’ve been getting out of the position.
Hey Tom - It's over now, so do you know how - to pick up the pieces and go home?
Why do you think there is a good possibility of that?
Do you think Molina is going to be worse defensively than Max and Treanor?
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah, I think it's possible that he's worse overall
His bat looks putrid and knowledgable Giants fans are saying that he was horrible at blocking pitches this year. I also think that a 300 lb catcher in his mid thirties is going to have a tough time playing in 100 degree heat everyday.
Hey Tom - It's over now, so do you know how - to pick up the pieces and go home?
Beyond the Boxscore...
… puts Molina’s defense as pretty craptastic.
wait
blip on their prospect screen, to get someone to help shore up a glaring weakness.
I don’t agree with either supposition. Main was more than a blip and I don’t think Molina really shores up anything.
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
Take everyone in the organization under the age of 25
Was Main one of the 20 best players/prospects in that group?
Probably not.
That, to me, makes him a blip on the screen, relatively speaking.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions
That's not what he said.
Not that what he said makes any fucking sense, but he didn’t characterize it that way.
by LiamP on Jul 1, 2010 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think it makes sense
I think if you’re looking at young talent in the organization, it doesn’t make sense to ignore guys like Andrus and Borbon and Smoak and Feliz because they aren’t in the minors anymore.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions
In a system chock full of young talent, the fact that he doesn't crack the 20 doesn't make him a "blip"
That’s absurd. I don’t think he’s the uber-prospect that people are remembering from a Newberg ST update from 2 years ago either, but he certainly has value and we just traded him as the second player in a deal for Bengie Molina.
by LiamP on Jul 1, 2010 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It makes him a blip, relatively speaking...
…just like the Yankees spending $5 million on a player is a rounding error.
For us, $5 million is significant. For another team, Main isn’t a “blip.”
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I can't go along with this logic.
The Yankees have no problem spending $5mm on a player so long as it makes sense. It’s not like they go around offering any random asshole $5mm to play baseball for them. Likewise, the Rangers should use their pitching prospect depth in trades when it makes fucking sense…not so they can write-off the salary of a shitty catcher they just acquired.
by LiamP on Jul 1, 2010 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
But the Yankees will make more money next year,
and every dollar is interchangeable.
The Rangers are not guaranteed to have another Main come into the system, and in fact, given their draft this year, their finances, and the state of their farm system, it seems very unlikely that they are going to continue to have as relatively strong a minor-league system as they do now.
Yeah, but the financial situation surely is a short-term thing.
Even if we have to write off the entire 2010 draft, it shouldn’t have a significant long-term impact on the overall quality of the farm system, right?
How recent are you talking?
And keep in mind that the financial situation may well have an impact on international signings, as well.
If that's what JDT217's talking about,
then I don’t think that speaks to the ability of this organization to overcome a lost draft. I might’ve thought about 2005 first, though.
That was the Meyer draft wasn't it?
Yeah, that was great for the overall quality of the system.
I don't believe Main...
…is one of the top 20 guys under the age of 25 in the system.
He’s below:
Feliz
Smoak
Holland
Andrus
Borbon
Skole
Scheppers
Moreland
E. Beltre
Beavan
Profar
Sardinas
Alfaro
Font
Erlin
Ross
Gutierrez
That’s 17 off the top of my head.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions
That's being a little generous to Danny, isn't it?
I mean, dudes got, what, 4 innings this year?
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
Did you call the hypothetical hardware store and buy a theoretical chain saw?
Gutierrez came into this season...
…being ranked in the top 10, I think.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions
It's not.
BP had Main 2 spots below Gutierrez (#8 and #6 respectively) and BA didn’t have Main on their top 10.
BA hates Main though
Had him in the 20’s iirc.
I thought I remembered him being ranked higher, maybe I’m just thinking of 2009.
Yeah, forgot him
And Harrison.
That gets you to 19.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Did you put Perez in there or is he over 25?
"Hell's frozen over, Pigs are flying! The Saints have won the Super Bowl"
Shreveport Captains in LSB H2H Fantasy League
Davis
Probably Velasquez.
"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty."- General George S. Patton
by Aquaman, Esq. on Jul 1, 2010 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions
trade rumors said he was 21
i thought he was a lot higher than that
by jonathan rigby on Jul 1, 2010 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Some thoughts from JD, per RDrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
here. Sorry if anybody has already posted this. It looks like they clearly thinks Molina is better than both Max and Treanor, making him the starting catcher. Trading Main makes sense if you think you are getting a starting catcher back that is clearly an upgrade over what you have. Now about the player evaluation part…
Wrong
It would be one thing if the Rangers had upgraded, but they didn’t. At best they went laterally, you don’t give up anything for a lateral move.
I think Molina is an upgrade over both.
Definitely Max. I don’t want a young catcher who hasn’t done so swell all year at catching, or calling games to be leading us into the playoffs. Treanor is well just Treanor. Molina is an upgrade. It’s not a big upgrade, but come on. If before this trade happened I think a lot of people would have said they would take Molina over Treanor or Max right now.
I’m not excited about it, but I just think it’ll end up helping.
I'm just goofin' new boot goofin'
Prove that he is a "far superiour (sic) game-calling catcher."
"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty."- General George S. Patton
by Aquaman, Esq. on Jul 1, 2010 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Assuming what you're trying to prove
A bold move.
"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty."- General George S. Patton
by Aquaman, Esq. on Jul 1, 2010 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions
well one thing is for sure, he has experience, but at this point thats about all i can say for him
so lets hope if nothing else that has some form of positive effect, since the deal is done (i guess) we need to get use to it, and hope for the best.
"I may have had a tough break, but I have an awful lot to live for." Lou Gehrig
Here is the only problem
Calling the game and those factors is one of those things that we numbers guys just cant factor in. Baseball people tend to love things like that and it creates friction…
I think the truth is likely somewhere in the middle, we undervalue it (essentially because we give it 0 value) and they overvalue it
Hopefully it works out for the rangers since that is ultimately what everyone wants
x
At best they went laterally
Only if you are that confident that Molina represents little to no upgrade defensively over Max.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Or you believe that a guy that doesn't hit and doesn't walk with continue to not hit and not walk.
And that his defensive upgrade will be offset by the offensive downgrade.
"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty."- General George S. Patton
by Aquaman, Esq. on Jul 1, 2010 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
ZIPS projects...
…Max and Molina to be roughly equal, offense-wise, the rest of the season.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions
The club thinks Molina is an upgrade over Treanor as well
Then they are probably expecting him to beat the ZIP projection
Or they think that...
…Molina’s defense is better than Treanor and Max.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Not sure
what kind of trade all of you wanted considering the god-awful financial circumstances the club is dealing with. I know many of you are irked by Main being the PTBNL, but if he was that great, do we all really think that JD would pull the trigger on this?
Bengie will either be a lateral move or a slight improvement over Max Ram (who Texas can still deal). Treanor is still here which I think makes most happy. Rich Harden aside, JD and company have gained my trust this season. I am going to keep an open mind.
by Sean Bass on Jul 1, 2010 6:52 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
x
what kind of trade all of you wanted considering the god-awful financial circumstances the club is dealing with.
Certainly not this one.
"Fuck Tom Hicks. There is no aspect of my baseball universe that man hasn't shit on."
"A win is a win. Kinda like banging a hogger on Spring Break. You’re glad hardly anybody saw you do it but at the end of the day you got laid."-- Josey Wales
by TooLegitToQuit on Jul 1, 2010 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dumb question.
This is not a zero-sum game. It’s not Molina or nothing.
And the trade didn’t have to be done at this exact moment, no matter what you think about the current situation. We’ve gotten through 70+ games with what we’ve got, what makes us need Molina RIGHT F’ING NOW!
"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty."- General George S. Patton
by Aquaman, Esq. on Jul 1, 2010 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
so what if this deal was done to do something bigger in a few weeks?
sometimes moves are made to make another one in baseball. I just don’t get all of the venom toward a veteran with a solid track record. Is he what he was 6 years ago? Of course not. Is he a better option that Max right now?? Probably.
What are we all really pissed off about? Losing Ray or Main? If so why exactly?
We're pissed off about trading Main, an asset, in a situation where the benefit is by no means identifiable or certain.
"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty."- General George S. Patton
by Aquaman, Esq. on Jul 1, 2010 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
to go back to the original posters point....
You build a deep system to make moves like this. If this was 5 or 6 years ago and we cut loose a guy like Main, then yeah I would be just as upset as some of you guys. We have about six or seven guys I am higher on that Main at this point.
Just because you have an asset like starting pitching depth
Doesn’t mean that you should just cash in on a pretty much a lateral move though. Especially since pretty much every team in baseball craves SP prospects.
I wouldn’t be a bit disappointed if we cashed Main in for a real upgrade at catcher but I just don’t see this as the case. Basically I just wish the Rangers would’ve searched around a bit more first.
The Rangers have a very strong farm system at the moment.
It’s not guaranteed to stay that way, and trading a prospect in their top 20 for a below-value return is a good way to accelerate a decline.
by Josh Garoon on Jul 1, 2010 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm starting to wonder if people here might be misestimating
what the farm system is, can do, and should/needs to be for a club like Texas.
"for a club like Texas"
I’m holding out hope that new ownership will redefine what “a club like Texas” is. Though we continue to get distressing news on that front.
Yeah, that's my concern.
I’m not sure any new ownership changes the financial landscape that drastically ~ at least, not right away. I obviously could be wrong.
x
trading a prospect in their top 20 for a below-value return is a good way to accelerate a decline.
Read this after my post below, but I so very much agree with this.
I agree, but
it’s pretty obvious that the Rangers front office and manager value Molina a lot more than we do. If they view him as a starting catcher who can handle the pitching staff much better than Treanor/Max, than they will feel the price was fair. None of us see Molina quite that way so we’re not going to be happy.
Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!
I get that the FO and manager feel that way.
But right now, I’m leaning more to the Keith Law side of things.
by Josh Garoon on Jul 1, 2010 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, so do I
I would have rather just kept rolling with Treanor-Ramirez for a while longer to see if Molina’s price came down or looked elsewhere.
Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!
Do something bigger in a few weeks?
How is getting rid of 2 tradeable pieces going to help the Rangers do that?
by LoneStarBallUser on Jul 1, 2010 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Not to mention sending out a blaring signal that we will overpay significantly to save money.
"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty."- General George S. Patton
by Aquaman, Esq. on Jul 1, 2010 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I really don't understand that stance
at most, it’s a lateral move because didn’t hurt the Rangers from a financial standpoint. But I really don’t see how dealing for Molina sets them up for anything, especially when it cost a tradable asset (regardless of his value) to get him.
x
Is he a better option that Max right now?? Probably.
Basically, Max is the backup catcher. Do we really need to trade a high upside guy for a slightly better (if any) backup?
"Fuck Tom Hicks. There is no aspect of my baseball universe that man hasn't shit on."
"A win is a win. Kinda like banging a hogger on Spring Break. You’re glad hardly anybody saw you do it but at the end of the day you got laid."-- Josey Wales
by TooLegitToQuit on Jul 1, 2010 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes.
"Fuck Tom Hicks. There is no aspect of my baseball universe that man hasn't shit on."
"A win is a win. Kinda like banging a hogger on Spring Break. You’re glad hardly anybody saw you do it but at the end of the day you got laid."-- Josey Wales
by TooLegitToQuit on Jul 1, 2010 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Even if you're really down on Main - which I was
He’s definitely high upside.
Sure he has a very, very high risk of never amounting to anything but if he clicks he would definitely be high upside.
"It's not Molina or nothing."
That’s the scary thing, though. It was and is. That’s how far Salty and TT’s stars have fallen. Sigh.
Ok, who in the organization told you that's what it was?
"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty."- General George S. Patton
by Aquaman, Esq. on Jul 1, 2010 7:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Do you believe Molina is an upgrade?
"Fuck Tom Hicks. There is no aspect of my baseball universe that man hasn't shit on."
"A win is a win. Kinda like banging a hogger on Spring Break. You’re glad hardly anybody saw you do it but at the end of the day you got laid."-- Josey Wales
by TooLegitToQuit on Jul 1, 2010 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Over Max. I think he and Treanor are on equal footing at this point.
Don’t feel great about the trade, but I am not ripping down the walls over it either.
So....
You traded something of value for a guy that is the same as the current “glaring weakness”? Well done!!!!
by LoneStarBallUser on Jul 1, 2010 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wasn't fine with it
But this doesn’t fix it. That’s the problem. Molina is not that much of an upgrade (if any) in my opinion. Of course, I am sure Wash is happy to have the veteran presence now.
by LoneStarBallUser on Jul 1, 2010 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions
"I know many of you are irked by Main being the PTBNL, but if he was that great, do we all really think that JD would pull the trigger on this?"
If we’re to believe that they were freaked out about the catching situation, who knows if he had a choice. I don’t think JD made this trade thinking there’s no way Main doesn’t become a quality big league pitcher. I think he made it thinking, “I’ve got to do something because Treanor might not last much longer and then we’re screwed?”
We might value Main higher than the Rangers do, but it still doesn’t make it a good trade.
by ghostofErikThompson on Jul 1, 2010 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions
"If he was that great, do we all really think that JD would pull the trigger on this?"
I think Daniels has historically made some mistakes in terms of trading prospects for major-league talent in high-pressure situations, so the thought had crossed my mind, yes.
by Josh Garoon on Jul 1, 2010 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
We're going to make a really, really bad trade, aren't we?
A Dan Haren package for Cliff Lee?
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
I'm worried about this, yeah.
Thing is, if Adam’s right about the front-office rationale for this trade ~ and I think there’s a good chance he is ~ then it seems to me they have to try to pull off a big trade next. Because if they don’t, what’s the point of pulling the trigger on this one?
I just hope that if they do make a big move next, they get it right.
You're exactly right.
I, for one, am hoping we can put together a Dan Haren package for Dan Haren on, say, July 25.
"but if he was that great, do we all really think that JD would pull the trigger on this?"
Gonzo and Danks say hi.
Adrian Gonzalez
says hi wrt to:
but if he was that great, do we all really think that JD would pull the trigger on this?
Also,
Bengie will either be a lateral move or a slight improvement over Max Ram
is one of the points up for debate. And the data, that we have from this season, doesn’t support the statement you made at all.
IMO, it’s really up to the Molina defenders to show why Bengie will “be a lateral move or slight improvement.”
Offensive numbers
typically go up for players when they get to Texas. So, no, I can’t imagine that.
"Hey Sanka, you can pee now... uuummm, too late...."
This used to be links to my websites... But the man got in the way, shut them all down... Damn the man... ~ Rangers Game Streams ~ Password: LSB123
by FormerLSBUser on Jul 1, 2010 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions
You can't imagine something that, in your words, only "typically" happens
Not happening?
"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty."- General George S. Patton
by Aquaman, Esq. on Jul 1, 2010 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions
300 lb catchers in their mid thirties with no power
I don’t think that is a profile of a player that will improve by playing in 100+ degree heat everyday in Texas
Hey Tom - It's over now, so do you know how - to pick up the pieces and go home?
Oh I wasn't aware it was above 100 everyday in Texas
I wasn’t aware we had all home games and I wasn’t aware catcher caught everyday.
I'm just goofin' new boot goofin'
JD put it nicer than Nolan did
You stock a system for a reason, so you can use those guys to trade for problems with your big league club… Otherwise, whats the point?
But you guys understand this, obviously. So maybe where we need to look it is value, and as I mentioned before, I think this move very clearly states that in MLB, the value for Main is vastly different than we perceive, and the Rangers judged that his maximum usefulness would be in this situation. We may disagree, but I disagree with the thought that JD just put him for fuck sake.
And ya, Main is a blip. He is outside of the top 20 of our prospects, and is at least 1.5-2 years away from being able to contribute as a SP for a ML team. And on Molina, you don’t look for offense from your catcher, you want solid defense (At replacement level) and a guy who can manage a staff down the stretch. He is at least even with Treanor offensively, and arguably will be better in the previously two mentioned capacities as a catcher. You didn’t hit a home run with this, but you addressed the problem of catcher as best as you could have hoped to. Who were you going to add that was that much better than what we have? Ganna go out and get Mauer are we? No, no way. Molina is just about as good as we could do given our situation, and I am happy with it.
"Hey Sanka, you can pee now... uuummm, too late...."
This used to be links to my websites... But the man got in the way, shut them all down... Damn the man... ~ Rangers Game Streams ~ Password: LSB123
by FormerLSBUser on Jul 1, 2010 6:53 PM CDT reply actions
Good for you.
I’m glad there’s somebody that sees a silver lining here. I hope Molina proves you right. I have little confidence that he will, but I still hope he does.
"Ok, post your favorite moment of the Tom Hicks era
Mine is today when he sold the team." - t ball
It's the "manage a staff" part that I think is over-rated here.
What exactly does that mean? And, really, what is the expected run prevention from that?
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
Manage a staff
It depends on the staff…
If your staff sucks they you can’t manage it. If it’s good then you can. Just ask Pudge.
by LoneStarBallUser on Jul 1, 2010 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Here's the thing
Even if the rest of the MLB doesn’t properly rate him, then don’t make the trade. Properly valuing prospects are what separates teams like Tampa and Minnesota from the rest of the teams that flail away at this model/payroll.
I’m not against trading Main, I was probably more down on him that most of the prospect gurus here. But this is another point in the argument that JD doesn’t properly value his own prospects in trading for veterans. Ugh.
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
how do we know the value of Main to other GMs
this is speculation just like the draft
by death of the cool on Jul 1, 2010 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Because there's external rating sources
Like BA, BP and Keith Law.
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
Yeah
Main isn’t a blip on the radar screen. Not with those peripherals, that upside, that age, that pedigree
Peripherals?
I looked at the terrible L/R splits and 1.4 HR/9. Not that impressed. Don’t like the trade that much, haven’t completely given up on Main, but I definitely think he’s been overrated here for a while.
Look at the dimensions of Sam Lynn Ballpark
you might feel a little better. Homers were a problem, no doubt, but the setting played a role too.
gave up more HRs than any other pitcher in the league
that’s bad no matter what the ballpark looked like.
Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!
The Blame Game - Salty
Who’s to blame? The GM? The budget? Perhaps. What about Salty? He has let us down in 2010. Salty was playing better baseball in 2008, 2009. So, why Molina? Because we are desperate in some respects.
Because of Main’s pedigree, he has value. How much longer does that last if he gets hurt in 2010?
"Do you understand probability theory? Yes, I do. The Rangers will probably lose."
Rangers fans have to readjust their mindset.
We’re so used to having a weak farm system, especially pitching, that it’s painful to see a legitimate prospect traded for a short-term declining talent like Molina.
This is more painful because Main is the first strong prospect out of the Rangers rebuild-from-within era to get traded. Prepare for more, bankruptcy budget limitations or not.
All that being said, I think Main will not pan out long term, but his value in a trade should have been higher than the return. His name stuck out in Newberg’s list of mid-tier prospects SF would be selecting from. I swear I thought Main was highlighted and blinking when I read his post.
The problem is...
If they continue this “rounding game” for mediocre or much worse than mediocre players then the biggest strength of the team which is the depth of the minor league system is pretty much gone and all we’re left with is the Benji Molina’s of the world to show for it.
So just saying you have a lot of room for error doesn’t mean that making errors like this is good practice.
There is no cash in this deal.
"Fuck Tom Hicks. There is no aspect of my baseball universe that man hasn't shit on."
"A win is a win. Kinda like banging a hogger on Spring Break. You’re glad hardly anybody saw you do it but at the end of the day you got laid."-- Josey Wales
by TooLegitToQuit on Jul 1, 2010 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions
How is the weather suppose to be tomorrow?
Dude is in town for 2 weeks from Saudi, was going to give him my ticket voucher.. not sure if it’s suppose to a big chance of rain tomorrow or not though?
What do you do?
Ok you don’t; make the Molina trade and you don’t have any confidence in your minor league catching options. Tonight one of your current major league catchers ends up on the 60 day DL. Now what do you do? What do you think the asking price would be for a major league catcher from other teams when they know you absolutely have to have one?
Throw strikes but don't givr them anything good to hit
That's logical, and a decent reason to grab an above replacement level catcher today
But, if the end game is a replacement level catcher, save Main and go get him if and when he’s needed.
And Bengie Molina is pretty much replacement level.
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
Did you call the hypothetical hardware store and buy a theoretical chain saw?
I want to win THIS year
Like it has been said all along, 2010! 2010! 2010! I think an experienced, historically way above average defensive catcher that can call a game better than anything we got, can be the glue to hold this staff together through the playoffs. When was Main gonna become a factor on the ML team? By the time he will, we will have new ownership and hopefully a rock solid foundation to the organization. The team can then deal with any pitching issues at that point. Maybe the money is there to go after somebody better than main ever was. At some point, you have to stop thinking about the future so much and focus on now! Thats why I like the comp to the Yanks. They’re big boys, they know what they’re doing.
Why do some people think aquariums are cruel? The fish love it there! They told me. They said, "Truthfully Rich, it's fuckin awesome. There's no predators. No nets, no pollution. It's like the ocean without all the bullshit." -Richard Jeni
Who the fuck are these people.
And where are they coming from.
by LiamP on Jul 1, 2010 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hey man...
All I can do is call it like I see it, and try to look at in a positive light. Max is pretty useless if he can’t hit. Our lineup is stacked and I have no problem with a catcher that can’t hit that good, but knows how to block a ball. If they want to use Max at first, at least he’s not let balls get buy behind the plate, or throwing down to Borbon.
Why do some people think aquariums are cruel? The fish love it there! They told me. They said, "Truthfully Rich, it's fuckin awesome. There's no predators. No nets, no pollution. It's like the ocean without all the bullshit." -Richard Jeni
One other thing to consider
Let’s assume the front office determined that Molina will likely be a Type B free agent this offseason, meaning they’d get a compensatory pick in the 2011 draft.
If we evaluate this as Molina + the #40 pick in the draft for Ray + Main, does that make the trade more palatable?
Of course.
Now, that requires Molina to be bad enough through the rest of the season that he doesn’t become a Type A, right?
I am assuming that...
…his performance thusfar this season would have dragged him down to Type B status.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions
That was the impression I was under as well.
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
Do the calculations hold across leagues?
According to MLBTR, Molina’s a Type A in the NL, with a 74.436 score; that would also be a Type A in the AL, assuming it’s convertible.
It should continue decreasing, though
I’ll be so appalled with Elias if he actually maintains Type A status
The last mock Elias a couple of weeks ago has Molina as type A
so one has to hope that he not only stay as a type A, but performs well enough to become a strong type A. That way, I think he will be good/marketable enough for us to offer arbitration
The question is, does another top-whatever team sign him if he's a Type A?
Would you give up your first-round pick to sign Bengie Molina?
Assuming you mean "bottom" as the Rangers get the signing team's 1st-round pick,
I’m not so sanguine. But I hope you’re right.
Couple of things there.
1. If he’s godawful to the point where he drops down to a Type B, god help us all.
2. You’d still have to offer him arbitration and there’s still a chance (good one at that) that he’d take it.
With guys who won't cost the signing team a pick...
…there’s been a recent trend to reach an agreement to offer arb and have it declined.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2010 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions
It would make sense if Molina could sign for about he would make in arb.
However, if Molina performs poorly enough to be a type B, I’d find it hard to believe that anyone would offer him that kind of deal. Especially considering his age and declining health.
How Much is Molina's contract
and what are his current stats. He better be doing good. Chris Ray is a good player
IF you see a opportunity you take the opportunity
found it
hitting .257 with three home runs and 17 RBIs.
Not that bad
IF you see a opportunity you take the opportunity
He's rockin' the 71 OPS+.
That’s awful. Worse than awful.
"Ok, post your favorite moment of the Tom Hicks era
Mine is today when he sold the team." - t ball
This is a great series of posts
so dumb twice in a row. Good for you.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 1, 2010 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Chris Ray...
is the relief pitcher of Bengie Molina catchers.
by ghostofErikThompson on Jul 1, 2010 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, dear. They're everywhere, now.
Where have they been hiding?
by Josh Garoon on Jul 1, 2010 7:48 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
My eyes are bleeding from reading 80% of this stuff.
by LiamP on Jul 1, 2010 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's awful.
Where did they all come from?
by Josh Garoon on Jul 1, 2010 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
DMN, ESPN, Satan's asshole, Newberg Forums...
Who knows?
by LiamP on Jul 1, 2010 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
We just need to insult...
Michael Young somewhere to bring the rest out.
by ghostofErikThompson on Jul 1, 2010 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions
He's hit like .110 since April
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
Washington nationals are too grumpy too trade them
They need him only reason besides that new pitcher there earning money
IF you see a opportunity you take the opportunity
isn't Sanchez good or have i only herd of him because he plays in boston
Alyson Footer of MLB.com reports (via Twitter) that the Astros have sent catcher Kevin Cash to Boston in exchange for minor league infielder Angel Sanchez.
I pity the fact michael main
was our first round pick at 2007. In 2008 I thought they said we had the best prospects in the world. What was his stats in minor’s leagues
IF you see a opportunity you take the opportunity
I pity the fact that you have chosen to subject the rest of us to your stupidity.
"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty."- General George S. Patton
by Aquaman, Esq. on Jul 1, 2010 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
There are days when someone like you will wander into this forum and get a few indulgent pats on the head.
This is not one of those days.
by JDT217 on Jul 1, 2010 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I've been in the rooms before it's just has been a while
IF you see a opportunity you take the opportunity
AJM, thanks for reeling us in.
There has been so much said, and speculated, that it’s good to get a well-reasoned assessment. Not to say that Joey Matches’ response wasn’t well thought out, or EG, but thanks. Just thanks.
It's "Ode to Joy," from the Ninth Symphony. - Josh Garoon
Anyone following along today able to answer the questions below?
Was Max Ramirez sent down?
Did we get a replacement for Ray in the bully?
Is Molina going to be with the club tonight?
All that happens tomorrow
With Strop the replacement
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
Just finished the drive from Houston to Dallas
I haven’t ventured into the long thread yet, but know that I would have vociferously sided with those against the idea of trading Michael Main, a top 20 prospect, for Bengie FUCKING Molina.
Now, to the ramming of heads into walls. Repeatedly.
FUCK
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
Sickels had Main at #6
before the season started and graded him a B. Main did nothing really to lose that spot in ranking order this season, and had a decent run at High A (HR were an issue, but Bakersfield, dog).
If you put any stock into Victor Wang’s prospect valuation methods, then the Rangers paid approximately $7mil in prospect value for $1.7mil of Molina salary. Even assuming wins are worth $5mil a year (which I don’t think we’re to that point in the season just yet), Molina will have to be worth 1.12 WAR for just a Main for Molina + salary trade to even out.
Over 77 games so far, Molina has been worth 0.3 WAR, so that’s asking a lot of Molina over the next 80ish games (however many are left when he gets on the 25); and, that doesn’t even take into account whatever value Ray had (which probably isn’t much, but something).
I don’t believe losing your #6 prospect (ranked from a well regarded source) who had a 3.43 SO/BB rate and a 1.182 WHIP (per B-R) in the CAL league is a “blip on the prospect screen,” and I don’t believe Molina really shores up much of anything given his current play thus far this season.
The farm system may be able to absorb a bad trade such as this, and maybe even be able to absorb overpaying for Cliff Lee, but making trades like that is a very, very quick way to find yourself with a farm system that is no longer able to absorb such deals.
Bad trades are bad trades, and this one is a stinker.
by elvis1isking on Jul 1, 2010 8:14 PM CDT reply actions 9 recs
This post
is why we need to be able to rec posts more than once. Or super rec or something.
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
meh
I think Sickels’ ranking is about as optimistic one could take on Main. He’s probably the riskiest of the Rangers’ 2nd tier. Maybe he has the highest ceiling of that tier, but he’s the one most likely to have season after season lost due to some mystery illness or injury.
Don’t get me wrong- I hate to lose Main for Molina. But this probably isn’t Hafner for Einar Diaz
Go Rice Owls!
you nailed it Hoss, this reminds me too much of the old Rangers and that's not a compliment
Welp stock up on twinkies clubhouse manager, I hear Benjie loves them like Gerry loves ice cream
A punch and JUDY hitter is by definition a hitter who hits well placed but weakly hit balls for singles. Walter Alston once said of Willie McCovey "When he hits a home run he hits it with such authority it seems like an act of god. He's not a punch and Judy belter."
I have a couple of questions in mind:
Does Molina keep the running game in check? Does the fact that he speaks Spanish help Ogando and Feliz when they’re out on the bump? Did Main lose any velocity after the mystery illness from last year? I know, I know, I’m just looking for ways to justify the trade…
"Evolution happened, now get over it." Michael Shermer
x
But the Rangers parted with a guy whose departure is basically a blip on their prospect screen, to get someone to help shore up a glaring weakness.
I can’t disagree with this more strongly. As I’m sure folks have already pointed out today, Main is a high upside guy, rated in the middle of the top 10 by quite a few folks for the last couple years.
Giving him up for a player who actually provides no significant improvement to the team is, in my estimation, inexcusable.
"Take all that clubhouse [stuff] and all that, throw it out the window. Every writer in the country has been writing about that [nonsense] for years. Chemistry don't mean [anything]." - Jim Leyland
by LSJ on Jul 1, 2010 9:17 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
keithlaw I wouldn’t trade Michael Main straight up for Bengie Molina, even if my alternate catcher was a pointed stick.
Yup.
"No nuts, no glory"
by coolaid on Jul 1, 2010 9:39 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
I hate the trade...
but it will be a while before thing bear out as far as how Molina does the rest of the season and Main’s development. I was becoming a big fan of Main’s due to all he had to overcome since he was drafted. Molina doesn’t sound like much of an upgrade to what we have, but I agree that Treanor probably can’t handle a starter’s load. Salty deserves to stay in AAA the rest of the year. And as much as I love Max, he hasn’t really done anything to take the reigns away from Treanor.
For all of you that know much more than me about the rest of the league: was there another catcher that we maybe could have traded for that doesn’t sound like he’s got one foot in the grave?
Good hell...
all I needed was yet another reason to hate this deal. Thanks.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Nope...
it was still a stupid trade.
The more I think about it, the more I don’t like it.
I don’t care how good your farm system, is or how many good players there are in the organization under the age of 25. That doesn’t justify giving up a good 21 year old prospect who was on his way to AA for Bengi fucking Molina. Period.
Spin it however you want. Including Main in this deal was idiotic.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Jul 1, 2010 11:42 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Don't stop now
You’re on a roll.
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
by GhettoBear04 on Jul 1, 2010 11:50 PM CDT up reply actions
I just read a ton of posts from McCovey Chronicles re: the trade..
There are some great posters over there. The overwhelming tenor is that Molina sucks at pretty much everything and a lot of them can’t believe the Rangers would want him. They are in celebratory mode, tons of comments regarding how slow and fat he his and “thanks for the mammaries Benji”. I mean they REALLY hated him,
Yeah, that’s it. His magical ability to handle pitchers. Yeah. No need to analyze it any further, Rangers fan. Have fun, hide the Krispy Kremes.
by younghutch on Jul 1, 2010 1:56 PM PDT
So happy
I AM FREAKING OUT!!!
by sakbaum
Twinkle twinkle little bat
How I wonder where you’re at
Up above the world you fly
BENGIE ISN’T A GIANT ANYMORE WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto
I guess we’ll have to see how things play out. Maybe he is a superb game caller. He’ll have to be since the rest of his game from what I’ve read appears to be lackluster at best.
A punch and JUDY hitter is by definition a hitter who hits well placed but weakly hit balls for singles. Walter Alston once said of Willie McCovey "When he hits a home run he hits it with such authority it seems like an act of god. He's not a punch and Judy belter."
Those are examples of the great posters you mentioned?
Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!
We actually really liked him! There are all sort of crazy gifs celebrating ’Big Money" that are locked up in storage.
He was a good player through a series of bad years . That frustration is mainly born out of what he has collapsed into since mid-last year, coupled with having a ready replacement that the organization was slow to use.
His defense just isn’t there any more, and it was nothing special even when he first arrived to SF.
Mark DeRosa just got the damn surgery.
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