Grade the Lee trade
by coolaid on Jul 15, 2010 12:36 PM CDT
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Wish AJM would have put up this poll for the Lee trade like the one we had for the Molina trade. Going to use the same scale as AJM did for the Molina trade with "0 being "Travis Hafner for Einar Diaz," and 10 being the Teixeira trade".
The M's sent Lee and reliever Mark Lowe to Texas for first baseman Justin Smoak and minor leaguers Blake Beavan, Josh Lueke and Matthew Lawson.
From reading some of the comments, I like it much more than most people here. I know rooster has a poll up but there was no in option in between approve and disapprove.
via d.yimg.com
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I don't like it.
I’ll call it a 3.
It definitely gives us a better shot this year, but it gives our division foe 6+ years of a very useful 1b, plus we’re gonna regret throwing in my homeboy C-Wun.
Fuck I hate that we traded him to the fucking M’s of all teams.
Fuck, fuck, fuck.
FUCK.
The 40 trumps all!
"WHY IS LIAM POPPINS STICKING. IT'S AN ABSURDLY BAD NICKNAME"
-LiamP(oppins)
I gave it an 8....
Without Lee, I don’t see the Rangers winning a series in the playoffs this year.
With Lee, I think we match up well with anyone out there.
We gave a really good first baseman (easier to replace than other positions, I would think) and C-Wun (why, JD, why?) for Lee and Smoak basically. We get comp picks when Lee leaves (give me the owner with the most money, MLB). This trade doesn’t harm our chances of competing in the long run while increasing our chances of winning in the playoffs this year.
Note on Smoak/Davis: we knew one of them was probably going to get traded and I think the Rangers did a good job of not selling low on Davis.
"No nuts, no glory"
I think exactly the same thing as you do
But I gave it a 2; because I don’t think Cliff Lee was really needed this year. The playoffs are a crapshoot anyway, and Smoak on the Rangers makes it more likely we’ll be back multiple times in the next 5 years. Since returning to the playoffs over and over again is the only really good plan for winning a world series… it is a fail.
Go Rice Owls!
You don't think the Rangers are
a better playoff team with Lee or that he gives them a much better chance to win in the playoffs? I’m sorry but I don’t think Smoak that big of a difference maker over the next 5-6 years.
"The 2010 Rangers...winning despite Ron Washington"
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
In his defense, you are a retarded cuntbag by LiamP on Mar 4, 2010
sure they're better
but better means they have a 60% chance of winning instead of a 50% chance.
Go Rice Owls!
Smoak cam be replaced with a FA
I feel much better about this team now than before the trade. How far into the playoffs do they have to go for you to give it a better # than a 2? Not trying to call you out but a 2 is just stupid. I could have seen it if you had said a 5 or 6 but a 2 please….
"The 2010 Rangers...winning despite Ron Washington"
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
In his defense, you are a retarded cuntbag by LiamP on Mar 4, 2010
I like Smoak quite a bit
and I really don’t like Chris Davis. I think they traded about 5% chance of making the playoffs each of the next five years for only a marginal improvement on advancing to the next round this year.
Go Rice Owls!
The playoffs may be a crapshoot
But a legit ace can shut down an opposing team and give you a much better chance of winning 2 possibly 3 games in a series than you would have had otherwise
hit post too soon
A 1B does not have that same effect. He may be great in his plate appearances but if the other 8 guys in the lineup are crap its going to be tough to win. Look at Juan Gonzalez back in the day. He was a monster against the Yankees but we couldn’t win still.
I think Lee was needed
not to make the playoffs, but because the entire rotation was a bunch of question marks and high variance guys.
Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!
I gave it a 4
Considering Lee is probably gonna run, not walk, away from Texas at the end of the year, and we gave up plenty of controllable years to get him, we need to advance in the playoffs to make this pay off.
"Look, we're basically on earth to shit and fuck. So unless your job's to help people shit or fuck, it's not that important, so relax."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
3...
slightly better than the Molina deal (2).
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
5
A lot better than the Molina deal (1) (come on slc, that’s ridiculous)
Good: We got the best pitcher available without giving up any of our top 5 pitching prospects
Bad: Ugh, Smoak + Beave for 2 months of a player?!
You can argue (and I would) that giving up Smoak...
was worse than giving up one of the top 5 pitching prospects because of the depth the organization has there.
Now I wouldn’t have given up Perez or Scheppers for Lee, but I wouldn’t have done Smoak for him either. I hardly think that’s a ridiculous position to take.
6 years Smoak >>>>>> 2 1/2 months Lee.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Is it?
What if the Rangers win the WS this year and go get a good FA 1b? Would it be a good trade then?
"The 2010 Rangers...winning despite Ron Washington"
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
In his defense, you are a retarded cuntbag by LiamP on Mar 4, 2010
I want...
a Rangers WS victory more than almost anything on earth.
If that happens I’ll be fine with the loss of Smoak. In the meantime, the idea of not having Smoak in this teams future for the next 6+ years hurts me a lot.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I think trading Smoak for Lee hurts our chances of winning the World Series.
The best way to win the World Series is to build a team capable of getting to the playoffs as often as possible, and I think that while this trade gives us a better and more dangerous team this year, giving up Smoak in the deal hurts our overall odds of winning a WS cause now we’re in a worse position long term in terms of being likely to make the playoffs.
The 40 trumps all!
"WHY IS LIAM POPPINS STICKING. IT'S AN ABSURDLY BAD NICKNAME"
-LiamP(oppins)
by thedirkatron on Jul 15, 2010 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I support the trade, but reject the notion
that we should decide it was a good trade based on playoff results. You either agree with the premises the trade was made under or you don’t. Playoff wins would just be hindsight.
Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!
by t ball on Jul 15, 2010 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
How I feel is that it was marginally a bad process.
I’ll be okay with it if it works out for the best results, though. That doesn’t make it a better trade per se, it just makes it a gamble that pays off.
Like putting money in a slot machine and getting a huge payoff. It doesn’t make going to the slot machine smart, but, hey, it worked out, so no reason to be upset that you lost your quarter anymore.
Right, but for many people that sort of logic
would lead them to decide that it is a good idea to keep putting money into slot machines. That would be using results to change your process, which is dangerous. The Rangers took a gamble, decided the cost was worth it. On a one time basis I’m sort of ok with it. But if it makes them decide that this sort of gamble is always a good idea, making their process lean that way more in the future, that’s bad.
Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!
Scary.
Also, there are potential things that could change my mind on this trade being good. For instance, if Davis finds his groove and/or Smoak bombs, I’ll definitely have to at least entertain the notion that the club knew something.
I mean, obviously the Rangers know more than I do about baseball and their roster. There’s a possibility there’s something going on in this situation I don’t know about right now.
What we don't know
the teams definitely know more than we do, (though one wonders how in the hell everyone at the Mariners wasn’t aware of Leuke’s legal troubles) and I do remember Sullivan at one point reporting that there was something of a rift in the front office between Smoak and Davis supporters (less filling – tastes great!).
Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!
I think that's a very rational decision
I think giving it a 2 (1 better than the Molina trade) is ridiculous.
In Molina we got a below replacement player for one of our more decent pitching prospects.
In Lee we got a legit ace. Our team got substantially better for right now.
7 on the trade itself
but it’s guaranteed to go up/down depending on the the individual and team performances.
"Drinks are on me if Lewis posts >168IP and an era lower than 3.86." by RangerMad on Jan 20, 2010 12:36 PM PST
"HE GETS THE GODDAM CLEAT" by philkid3
I gave it a 7
I LOVE that we got Lee so don’t get me wrong.
I just hate how management has no money and we had to part with a better prospect in order for them to swallow most of Lee’s salary.
So in essence, we could’ve had Lee for less.
I gave it a 5
because it’s a trade — like all deadline trades — in which its success is predicated on how well the team does in the post-season. I think it’s fair to say that if the Rangers don’t advance in the playoffs, it should be viewed as unsuccessful. That being said, my baseball weenie is throbbing right now.
That's why they call them business sox
Ummm. Incomplete???
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
Eleventy Seven
Toki: Clowns are, statistically, the most hated of all creatures.
Skwisgaar: Statisticallies or not, but, uh, just don'ts likes this guy.
yeah, probably should have done it 0-11, just in case someone wanted to do the
‘this one goes to 11’ bit. Which I kinda already just did.
"Drinks are on me if Lewis posts >168IP and an era lower than 3.86." by RangerMad on Jan 20, 2010 12:36 PM PST
"HE GETS THE GODDAM CLEAT" by philkid3
9
I don’t give 10’s and Smoak’s future does scare me a bit. Lee makes this team a real competitor this year and winning is the point of the game.
You can only be young once but can be immature forever!
by Bigfan16 on Jul 15, 2010 2:44 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I gave it a 9
They traded for the best pitcher in the history of the franchise and did so without giving away anyone important to the 2010 roster. If it had taken place last year at the deadline, it would be a 10 (yes, I know the Rangers would have had to give up more for Lee at that point).
I see some of the very low grades and, while I can respect a difference in opinion, I am puzzled. I sometimes think that if JD traded the 35th best prospect in the Ranger system to DET for Miguel Cabrera and DET agreed to pay the rest of Cabrera’s contract, there would still be hand-wringing by some. Because that 35th best prospect might turn out to be something some day!!!
The allure of the unknown and the promise of tomorrow is very powerful, it seems.
"Don't confuse the outcome that a decision produces with the intelligence that went into making that decision."--Tony LaRussa
I was born in 1975 so am not as educated on Fergie as I should probably be.
Just by looking at his numbers in Texas, it looks like Jenkins was excellent in 1974, average in 1975, pretty great in 1978, and average in 1979 and 1980.
Lee was awesome in 2008, excellent in 2009, and is somewhere between excellent and awesome in 2010. The version of Cliff Lee that arrived here last friday is tough to improve upon.
Add in the fact that he was Sandy Koufax in the postseason last year, and I might have to respectfully stick to my statement.
"Don't confuse the outcome that a decision produces with the intelligence that went into making that decision."--Tony LaRussa
well
you can’t judge Fergie based only on his Rangers season and then judge Lee off his last two years alone.
Jenkins probably had the best numbers as a Ranger of any pitcher. Jenkins probably had the best career of anyone who pitched significant seasons during his prime as a Ranger. Lets give Lee more than one mediocre start before anointing him anything
Go Rice Owls!
Jenkins
vs Perry and Ryan.
Jenkins gave us 6 years, 5 of which were good (one of those was outstanding),
Perry gave us only 3 (two plus 2 halfs) and they were all good (but none great).
Nolan gave us 5 years at the end, but the first two were still pretty special. In 1991, Ryan allowed only 5.3 hits per 9 innings. it was the third best in history, behind Luis Tiant, and a 19 year younger version of himself.
Oh my god! What can it be? We're all doomed! Who's flying this thing?
-Wash
Ryan was awesome in Arlington
people dismiss him, but he is in the discussion.
Kenny Rogers was pretty special while here too, particularly considering the era in which he pitched.
But I still go with Fergie.
The point is, Cliff Lee is NOT the answer. Would he become our best playoff starter ever? Absolutely. Best Ranger pitcher of all time? No way
Go Rice Owls!
But Lee is most definitely in the discussion as best ever
and easily the best starter they’ve had on the team in a very long time.
Jenkins’ 25-win season only featured a 125 ERA+, the best mark he reached as a Ranger, and his best ever mark was only 142. Lee was sporting a 175 ERA+ at the time of the trade, and his career mark is very close to Fergie’s (112 to 115). Jenkins gets the edge because of the sheer number of innings he pitched, but then again, Lee is averaging over 8 innings per start this year, just as Jenkins did then.
I don’t see why we should view Jenkins’ years as a Ranger far above what Lee is doing this year. We’ll see, of course, but it’s hardly ridiculous to put Lee in that discussion.
Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!
I guess we're differing on what we're ranking here
I don’t think it is fair to say Lee is the best Ranger anything until he actually pitches well here – the team has had HOF pitchers pitch here at the prime of their careers and it has had exceptional seasons by pitchers. Lee may well, and hopefully, add to both of those lists; but he isn’t there quite yet.
But undoubtedly he is one of the best pitchers at the time he put on a Ranger uniform, if that makes sense. I’m not disagreeing with you; I’m just saying he isn’t the best pitcher in the history of the franchise just because he was awesome/incredible/stellar when the team traded for him. Though I certainly acknowledge he could well turn out to be.
Go Rice Owls!
I don't think Fergie was necessarily the best in terms of "best Rangers career."
But I do think he’s currently the obvious answer for best Rangers season, and being the best at his best of any Rangers pitcher ever. Sort of like the A-Rod of pitchers.
Thing is, though, Lee’s last couple seasons are right there with Fergie as a Ranger, and this season so far has probably been even better. Lee has a very legitimate shot, at worst, of having the best three months of a Rangers pitcher ever.
true
I’ll acknowledge that Lee has a legitimate shot at having the best Rangers pitching season (or half season) ever. After all, he is a legit Cy Young candidate, and we’ve never had one of those…
But right now, saying that he’s the best ever is just ridiculous.
I like how you say Fergie is the ARod of pitchers. People don’t give that season of his nearly enough credit.
Go Rice Owls!
I wonder what season most rangers fans would pick as the best season by a pitcher in Rangers history.
It seems like it’s Fergie in ’74 by a mile to me.
Also, I think at Baseball Reference, No. 2 is Ken Hill in ’96.
CLIFF LEE!
Seriously, I gave it a 10, but I have more confidence in Chris Davis than 99% of the people on here.
this is part of my reasoning
plus the more Im starting to think that Smoak is going to be a good not great player, maybe an 850 OPS guy for the peak of his controllable years. The replacement value of Lee over 5th starter this year + Present Value is always greater than Future Value, especially in this case with were this franchise is in terms of marketing, versus the replacement level of Smoak over Davis and/or Moreland or whoever, to me, favors the Lee side of it.
Feliz says his greatest thrill was striking out Boston Red Sox DH David Ortiz, one of his heroes. Yet, when he called to tell his parents, his mother had a request: Strike out New York Yankees third baseman Alex Rodriguez, too.
"So when I did that," Feliz says, "I told my mom, 'There you go. There's your present. Don't ask me to strike anyone else out, OK?'
Who are we grading?
If this is grading the front office, you have to give it a 10.
Best player available.
Bankruptcy.
You have to give something to get something… and if Smoak was what they wanted, you had to give him up.
They made the right decision. Didn’t give up too much of the farm to go with it. That’s as good as it gets.
"there's no money in triples" - CJ, 3.23.10
My grade is an Incomplete but it will break down as follows
10- Rangers win the world series
9- Rangers make the world series and win a few games
8- Rangers make the world series and win A game
7- Rangers win the ALCS
6-Rangers win a few ALCS games
5- Rangers advance past divisional round
4-Rangers make the playoffs and lose first round
3- Rangers make the playoffs and Smoak becomes a really good 1st baseman
2- Rangers miss the playoffs
1- Rangers miss the playoffs, Lee gets injured, and Smoak becomes a perennial all-star
No
No hindsight grades, you either think it’s a good gamble or you don’t.
Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!
8
Flags fly forever, and this was a trade in that vein.
if Smoak becomes the next Eddie Murray, and Lee leaves after the end of the year, and we manage to make it to the ALCS, then its still a win.
We didn’t fleece the Mariners (despite what the Mariners say) but we didn’t get hosed either. We kept Scheppers, we kept Martin, we kept Ross and Font, so our minor league pitching depth is pretty much unchanged.
Sad to think how far Main and Beavan have fallen since that 07 draft. Beavan and Main were essentially sold for $5 million dollars.
Of those 5 first rounders, only one is still in our minor league system, (Neil Ramirez), two just got traded away, one starts tonight in centerfield, and the last on the mound. not bad overall…..
Now, for 20 points, name the 3 Rangers first round draft picks who will be pitching tonight in the major leagues.
Oh my god! What can it be? We're all doomed! Who's flying this thing?
-Wash
Hunter, Danks, Dickey?
I know Hunter and Danks are pitching tonight. Not sure who the Mets have on the hill.
"Don't confuse the outcome that a decision produces with the intelligence that went into making that decision."--Tony LaRussa
Got it in 1
RA Dickey goes for the mets tonight. The one Ranger first round draftee who is still in the majors but not pitching tonight pitches tomorrow. Thats Mr Lewis.
Oh my god! What can it be? We're all doomed! Who's flying this thing?
-Wash
3 if the Rangers get owners who want to change everything. 7 if the current team in allowed to stay intact.
If new ownership wants to bring in their own guys, then this trade has bought the Rangers one shot and the possibility that the new management might try to fill the two holes left by Lee/Smoak by trading the farm.
If the management team in intact for next season, then they will hopefully use some of the increase in operating budget resulting from ownership change to refill the talent they just traded away (and I think they can, given the recent success of the talent evaluators of this organization).
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
if this trade
is the catalyst of events that lead to JD keeping his job when he otherwise wouldn’t have, I’ll reassess it.
Go Rice Owls!
I give it a 4
We’re gonna regret it later. It just hasn’t really hit me yet, because I love Cliff Lee so much. I don’t want it to just yet, either.
But we’re gonna regret this.
I wouldn’t trade Michael Main straight up for Bengie Molina, even if my alternate catcher was a pointed stick. - KLaw
With the Lee trade in the books
Hopefully they are on the lookout for a RH bat who can play 1B/OF.
"Look, we're basically on earth to shit and fuck. So unless your job's to help people shit or fuck, it's not that important, so relax."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
This
I know you’re talking about this year (which, I agree). But, the trade will become infinitely better if we can sign Adam Dunn in the off-season (or if Davis surprises me).
I more care about this year
if you are going to try to win, it’s silly not picking up a big RH bat.
"Look, we're basically on earth to shit and fuck. So unless your job's to help people shit or fuck, it's not that important, so relax."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
I imagine they will
But Smoak was a loss of a RH bat only on paper. His production against lefties should be capable of being matched by anyone
Well
the reason I’d pick up a bat has little to do with the loss of Smoak. It has more to do with gaining Lee, and the trade only making sense if you are trying for postseason success.
I’d like to see someone to platoon with Davis, and maybe play 1B full time if Davis STBF.
"Look, we're basically on earth to shit and fuck. So unless your job's to help people shit or fuck, it's not that important, so relax."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays
Who's out there that's worth a damn?
It’s Slim fucking Pickins out there.
The 40 trumps all!
"WHY IS LIAM POPPINS STICKING. IT'S AN ABSURDLY BAD NICKNAME"
-LiamP(oppins)
by thedirkatron on Jul 20, 2010 7:58 AM CDT up reply actions
4
But I still feel weird about going with a 4, because it feels too close to the Molina trade. But I’m setting 5 as a trade I have neutral feelings on, and that would make a 4 a trade I’m very slightly against.
I based it on a passing-grade scale, thus a 7 or a "C"
"Drinks are on me if Lewis posts >168IP and an era lower than 3.86." by RangerMad on Jan 20, 2010 12:36 PM PST
"HE GETS THE GODDAM CLEAT" by philkid3
8
If rangers advance in the playoffs it will because Cliff Lee does something special. Even though the Boston Red Sox have been trying to find a decent shortstop for awhile, they still don’t regret trading Hanley Ramirez because Josh Beckett was crucial to winning the series.
I know a ton of Red Sox fans that regret that trade.
Hanley was good enough in ‘07 it is absolutely no guarantee the Red Sox wouldn’t have won, anyway, and they’d probably have been better since.
Not that I think it was necessarily a bad trade, even with the benefit of hindsight, but, yes, there are a lot of smart Red Sox fans that regret it.
I'm glad Seattle has Smoak instead of Montero
I really think the Jesus is going to be a Miquel Cabrera type impact player, while Smoak is going to be something much, much less than that. Plus we got the ace we needed for this playoff run.
I gave it a 7.
Hey Tom - It's over now, so do you know how - to pick up the pieces and go home?
7
I’m not convinced on the inevitable greatness of Smoak , plus it gives the Ranger a legit shot at advancing in the postseason (where Pre-Lee they didn’t have such a great shot). I was going to give it a 6, but I bumped it up 1 because I’m happy JD is taking chances instead of f-ing off (the risk/reward is high with this deal). An aggressive move that, if it works, will be remembered for a LONG long time.
"Does this effectively hide my thunder?"
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