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Around SBN: The End Of Sabanball: Details, Barbarians, And Precision

Geoff Baker of the Seattle Times has a lengthy rant, ripping Jack Zduriencik for letting Don Wakamatsu and the coaching staff take the fall for a poorly constructed roster not performing

over 1 year ago Th_buckykatt_tiny Adam J. Morris 166 comments 0 recs  | 

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Never understood all the preseason love the M's got.

"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz

"Baseball's all that's real" - JB

by Cecilio's Guante on Jul 27, 2010 3:37 PM CDT reply actions  

WARGM

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Waltham Abbey Royal Gunpowder Mills ?

"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz

"Baseball's all that's real" - JB

by Cecilio's Guante on Jul 27, 2010 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

I was thinking Wins Above Replacement GM, but I like yours better

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

I understood it because they made bright moves that sacrificed little of their future.

And it gave them a higher ceiling of potential success than a team in that position will usually have. They got a lot of potential upside and the risk was mostly only finishing even worse in a season where they probably weren’t going to contend, anyway.

I just didn’t think they were likely to finish better than about .500, and one too many people decided “they made moves and are doing something we think is kind of original, they must be instantly great!”

by philkid3 on Jul 27, 2010 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Part of what I think is going on, perception-wise

is that the Seattle front office didn’t believe they had as much of a chance at winning the division as the bloggers and fans did. And maybe the coaching staff. The front office made some moves that, if they had all paid off big time, would have put the team in contention, but they knew that in the larger sense they were really beginning a longer term process.

Fans, players, and coaches are disappointed, naturally. The front office is going to take a lot of heat, just like the Rangers front office did in 2007-2008.

Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!

by t ball on Jul 27, 2010 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

The M's played above their heads in 2009 and added Cliff Lee.

People forgot that to win games, you have to score more than your opponent.

by Inkara1 on Jul 27, 2010 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Did Geoff Baker not get the memo that Jack Z was infallible?

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 3:39 PM CDT reply actions  

It's obvious that the Mariners should just start over from scratch.

The clear answer for them would be to go ahead and unload King Felix. I am fairly certain a Harden/Arias/Teagarden/Kiker package could probably net us Felix and then maybe they could throw in a no-name prospect like Dustin Ackley to sweeten the deal for us a little.

by michael bluth on Jul 27, 2010 3:43 PM CDT reply actions  

Dumb trade for us

Benjie Freakin' Molina hit for the cycle.

by GayForFeliz on Jul 27, 2010 5:10 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

It truly, truly is...

Though I liked the part where he basically says Dr. Jack Z played Lookout Landing.

by ghostofErikThompson on Jul 27, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, can you imagine the LSB meltdown if it was suggested that our GM basically patronized us to get us on his side?

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Almost as big a mess as the Seattle organization.

But man, that made my head hurt. What’s with the horribly confused passage that goes from Figgins to Beltre to Figgins to Branyan to Bradley to Kotchman to Byrnes to Garko to Hudson to Lopez to Figgins again, and then on to Sweeney (in spring training) and Griffey, Jr….?

Baker’s a professional writer, right?

by Josh Garoon on Jul 27, 2010 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

heh

Yes. I could envision the steam pouring out of Jeff/Graham’s ears as they read that piece.

Not mediocre. Right about average

by trza on Jul 27, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think they much...

care what Geoff Baker writes. I just thought it was funny that he would stoop to that.

by ghostofErikThompson on Jul 27, 2010 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

My favorite sentence
Milton Bradley was taken on, having not produced a strong season since 2008.

Since 2008. Uh, so one year removed?

Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!

by t ball on Jul 27, 2010 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I BET THEY DO CYBERMETRICS SITTING IN THEIR PARENTS' BASEMENTS IN THEIR UNDERWEAR, LOLZERS

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

OT: Anyone relatively seasoned at cooking in a wok?

Trying it for the first tine tonight, and would be interested to hear any tips/tricks/advice.

"Don’t want to spend my night waiting in line unless it’s for more beer."
--EssBee, on LoneStarBall, Jan. 21, 2010

by ghtd36 on Jul 27, 2010 3:52 PM CDT reply actions  

Throw it around the room...

and whatever sound it makes, that’s what you name your next (or first) child.

by cmkelly29 on Jul 27, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

What are you making?

For stir-fry use high heat, lots of stirring. A little soy sauce, sesame oil, and stock/water. Can’t go too wrong.

Not mediocre. Right about average

by trza on Jul 27, 2010 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Would love to try to make some lo mein.

"Don’t want to spend my night waiting in line unless it’s for more beer."
--EssBee, on LoneStarBall, Jan. 21, 2010

by ghtd36 on Jul 27, 2010 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

the fuck, guys? i spent a lot of time on this.

FUCK I SHOULD HAVE USED HIS PICTURE 13 TIMES AND TITLED IT “BAKER’S DOZEN” FUCK FUCK.

by cmkelly29 on Jul 27, 2010 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Instead, you did it 24 times and gave us two non-Baker dozens

Good job.

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

And Z's roster sucked, and now coaches dont know where their next paycheck is coming from because of that

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't really understand the indignation now, because it seemed fairly obvious to me in the spring that the roster had lots of holes

There was no evidence that they were going to be able to score runs. It’s not like they have an offense where some guys are underperforming and it couldn’t be predicted. It’s just flat not any good.

WHEN JOSE LOPEZ IS THE CLEANUP HITTER, IT SHOULD BE CLEAR THE LINEUP HAS A PROBLEM.

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

That is true.

I agree that this criticism should have come previously, but it was a very poorly constructed offense.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

What I intended to say and then partly left out was to compare that roster to the 2009 Rangers

That Rangers offense had some bad players in it, but then you had All-Star sluggers like Kinsler and Hamilton who were terrible for a good portion of the season.

Looking at the Mariners offense, there are some underperformers but that offense shouldn’t have been expected to be good anyway. Figgins has been terrible and Ichiro is having a down season, but I’ve always thought Figgins was overrated and both of them are speedy slap hitters. There’s no one else on that offense who should have been legitimately expected to drive in a lot of runs.

The Rangers can’t really be blamed for expecting Hamilton and Kinsler to drive in runs in 2009 and then both of them not doing so. But when you’re depending on Casey Kotchmann, Jose Lopez, Ken Griffey Jr., and the Milton Bradley Soap Opera to drive in your runs, and you expect to contend, well, you need to have your head examined.

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

But, again, the question is who expected the Mariners to contend, and why?

I agree with Robbie. Seattle made moves this offseason that, if they had paid off, would have resulted in a surprisingly decent offense at minimal cost. Now that they haven’t paid off, they haven’t crippled Seattle’s future.

by Josh Garoon on Jul 27, 2010 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

They seemed to be the sexy pick as a "surprise" contender in a lot of camps

And you had the whole #6org saga, where Jack Z was being hailed as the next legendary GM before he accomplished a darned thing.

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, I think they should have been a sexy darkhorse.

To me, a darkhorse is a team unlikely to contend but with a real shot of doing so. That was the Mariners, to me.

But the MSM that was picking them so often was pretty damn stupid, yes.

by philkid3 on Jul 27, 2010 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

TWO ACES!!!

If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.

by GhettoBear04 on Jul 27, 2010 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

God.

This is the most hilarious part of this conversation to me. The overly-simplistic arguments in favor of the Mariners in spring training made my head hurt really, really hard. I ended up finally just acting higher on them than I should have been because I was tired of taking crap.

But it all just boiled down to “they were almost good and made moves” and “they have two aces” and “defense wins championships.” A bunch of really stupid truisms that don’t bother with the nuance of added value.

by philkid3 on Jul 27, 2010 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think people were looking for an Angels replacement

Because they saw how much talent the Angels had lost. You have the Rangers without and ace and high variance players on offense that you were unsure about because of injury…or a team with 2 guaranteed aces and a widely regarded great defensive team. I see why it happened, but I’m disappointed because they didn’t do as good a job in addressing their concerns as the Rangers did in my opinion.

If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.

by GhettoBear04 on Jul 27, 2010 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I thought the Rangers were way, way underrated.

But this is one more example that, while projection systems (which loved the Rangers), will probably never be even close to perfect, they’re going to be a lot more reliable for you than people who glance at off-season moves and search their gut for predictions.

by philkid3 on Jul 27, 2010 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

The 2009 Rangers were my darkhorse, by the way.

I got a bunch of crap at Baseball Fever for that, but a bunch of kudos at the end of the year.

by philkid3 on Jul 27, 2010 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

No, the offense was never what was supposed to carry them.

But it’s been even worse than anyone should have expected.

I definitely disagree about Figgins being overrated. If anything, he’s been underrated, but I think he’s been treated about right. And it’s not about “he’s an RBI guy,” it’s simply about how good the offense should have been, and I reject anyone having good evidence for expecting this many players to have this many really down seasons unless they can show it to me.

But, again, it wasn’t about the offense. The RLYW composite projections had them just over .500 with about 4.5 RPG. Well below the 2009 AL average. The offense wasn’t supposed to be good, dude.

The thing was the defense. They built around having incredible fielders. And as you well know, six months of defense is like two months of offense. In other words, there’s a chance you’ll get much better than you’d expect and a chance you’ll get much worse than you’d expect. The Mariners’ fielders have been worse than anyone should have expected (their UZR/150 is just over mediocre). It was likely to be better, and had the chance to be much better. That’s where the bright people were coming from in praising the Mariners’ moves: potential upside for little loss. Cameron himself was adamant that the Mariners had a very wide degree of possibilities, ranging from really bad to really good. They got really bad. It sucks, but you evaluate the process, not the results. (And Cameron himself picked the Rangers to win the division, btw.)

There was also the pitching. The projections that had the Mariners as mediocre to a little below weren’t banking on having Bedard, but the possibility of having Bedard gave them great upside potential. And if the offense and defense didn’t absolutely collapse, they may well have had Cliff Lee for the full season.

I do think the people who just went out and called the Mariners the team to beat were really, really stupid. But I think so are the people now piling on their off-season just because it hasn’t exactly worked out.

by philkid3 on Jul 27, 2010 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

So it's not their fault

That they get a poor sampling of defense over this short sample size of just one season…but what about overrating the performance/UZR data from last year?

Also, I understand that they were planning on sacrificing a fair amount of offense to put an exceptional defense on the field, but don’t you think they needed to do better at the positions where defense isn’t as important in ordered to really have a shot at the ceilings that a lot of these guys were talking about?

If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.

by GhettoBear04 on Jul 27, 2010 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

It is their fault.

They constructed their team in a certain way, hoping to get certain results. If they didn’t realize the high variance involved (which I guess is possible), then that was a moronic perspective. I seriously doubt the Seattle front office considered itself a front-runner going into the season.

And, again, so many of the moves they made were low-risk, low-to-decent return in the short term, and made little difference in terms of the longer run, which makes sense to me, given where they were heading into 2010.

by Josh Garoon on Jul 27, 2010 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, here's the thing.

Were they banking on potentially misleading defensive data repeating itself, or were they merely working around the possibility? If it’s the former, then, yeah, that’s pretty silly, I think. If it’s the latter, then I think it’s smart if you’re not going to contend without doing something and it doesn’t set you back much. I assumed it was the latter, but I guess I don’t really no.

And, yes, I do think they should have done better at, say, first base. That was among the biggest reasons I didn’t think they were likely to contend and something being overlooked when people were picking them to win tons of games. But there are two things. The first is how much opportunity to improve there did they have? The second is simply that I don’t think they had a great off-season period, I just think they had a very good off-season given the situations.

by philkid3 on Jul 27, 2010 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think they propped up somewhat realistic expectations

And this is what they get for doing that. It’s one thing to sell the idea of a young team that could break out; plenty of teams do that and nobody gets terribly upset when it doesn’t work out as planned.

I’m with you, this year struck me as a rebuilding project for them as they developed the sort of high caliber players that they use to go from a team with a couple of stars to one that is an actual contender. But they are suffering from raised expectations and I don’t think they’re totally innocent in that regard.

If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.

by GhettoBear04 on Jul 27, 2010 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good points

I think the bigger issue in my mind is not that Jack Z expected them to seriously contend (who knows what his honest assessment of the teams chances was), but that so many people overlooked the obvious flaws to pronounce them a contender.

I’m not necessarily criticizing Jack Z so much as I am the people who fell in love with the team simply because it was Jack Z. It’s like when Billy Beane puts together a mediocre roster and people pick the A’s to win the West because they just instantly assume Beane has some sort of secret formula to success that we’re just not capable of discerning in advance.

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

x

I’ll agree that the offense wasn’t expected to carry them, but it was expected to score runs. They weren’t, I don’t think, projecting themselves to have a terrible offense. It seemed to be the belief that they would have a decent, if not good, offense. But decent, in my mind, was still being far too optimistic about that lineup.

As for expecting this many players to have down seasons, who (outside of Figgins and Ichiro), should have been expected to be good. Lopez is having the worst season of his career, but 08/09 is really the only success he’s ever had. Prior to that he was not good. Kotchmann has flashed glimpses of decentness, but he’s been mostly mediocre his whole career. Jack Wilson is as about as bad as he’s always been. F-Gut has been only okay with the bat his whole career, so while he’s down, it’s not huge. And expectations are totally out the window when Milton Bradley ’s numbers are involved.

I’ll grant you that a whole bunch of players are having really down seasons all at once, but looking at the players who are doing it, should it really be all that much of a surprise? It isn’t to me.

As for the defense, that raises a question in my mind. Due to the difficulties of evaluating defense and the much-discussed sample size and year-to-year vagaries associated therewith, isn’t it almost a game of Russian roulette to build a team that banks very very heavily on defense?

I like the idea of building around defense, but at this point is it really a wise decision? Of course, teams may have proprietary systems that better measure defense than any of us can imagine, but I just wonder whether it’s a safe bet at this point. If I were a GM I’d be really, really hesitant to depend on defense as my path to success.

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

And yet building on defense and pitching

seems to be the league-wide shift, doesn’t it?

Again, if Seattle really had a high degree certainty that it’d built an average-to-above-average offense heading into 2010, then that was dumb. But I haven’t seen evidence of that.

by Josh Garoon on Jul 27, 2010 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agree totally

Surely Jack Z himself didn’t think the team had that kind of offense. Like I said above in another reply, I think my bigger criticism is with the people who fell in love with the roster, not with Jack Z’s assessment of the roster, because we don’t know what he really thought.

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

As far as the first point, I don't think that's true.

I don’t think the expectations were to have a good offense. Merely to have an offense that would score enough runs to get the defense and pitching by if all went well.

Also, you just mentioned a bunch of players who are down. Yeah, many of them were never that good. But a bad player being worse still makes the offense even worse. Chris Davis wouldn’t even have to get to average to make the Rangers offense a bunch better. And, yes, a bunch of players having career bad years should be a surprise.

And, yes, I do think it’s a game of Russian Roulette to build around defense. But it’s cheap and easy in the current market. It was something the Mariners could do with their means. I’m sure they’d rather build on more reliable aspects of winning games, but when you’ve been run in to the ground by Bill Bavasi, you probably don’t have the resources to do so.

by philkid3 on Jul 27, 2010 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

So what are your thoughts going forward

on the Figgins contract?

If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.

by GhettoBear04 on Jul 27, 2010 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, I'm not really sure.

They’re paying him pretty much to be an average player, if that. But while he’s been unlucky this season, he also has shown some evidence of a total lack of hitting the ball as hard and as far as he once could. And he’s only going to get older.

I just don’t really have a firm grasp on what’s wrong with him, and I’m not so sure even being mediocre is in his future. That could end up being a rough contract, but at least he doesn’t have to be great to justify it.

by philkid3 on Jul 27, 2010 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not to hijack your subthread, because I'd like to hear his answer, but rather I'll add a question to it

You say that Figgins is perhaps underrated. Well, sell me on why that’s the case. Figgins has always had limited value in my mind. He’s got good on-base skills and speed, but he’s got no power. His value is going to come from getting on base and allowing the guys behind him to drive him in. When you hit him in front of a set of “sluggers” like Seattle’s middle of the order, he’s not to going to “produce” in the sense that he’s going to score a lot of runs. He’s going to use his skills to get on base, steal second, and then be stranded.

He obviously doesn’t control who hits behind him, so I’m not assigning his value based on how many runs he’s scored. I’m just saying I think he’s less valuable on an otherwise bad offensive team than he is on a team with a good offense.

You don’t want to build an offense around him, and in that case he’s not worth much, but he’d be nice to add to a lineup with some mashers.

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

His positional value and defensive skills have made him an above average and occassionally quite good player.

And last year he put up 6.1 fWAR. And he gives you a good does of positional flexibility, which I think makes him even more valuable than WAR suggests.

I honestly don’t necessarily know how well he’s been rated, but I don’t think it’s better than that.

by philkid3 on Jul 27, 2010 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

The positional flexibility is something I hadn't factored in for this discussion

But yeah, when a guy can play that many positions, that definitely makes him worth more than a similar offensive player with less flexibility.

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure

How much value has he given to the M’s by letting Lopez move over?

If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.

by GhettoBear04 on Jul 27, 2010 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

They'd probably have been better just shooting Lopez

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

And leaving Figgins at 3rd*

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Perhaps his value is different

because the stats assume a linearity to their projection of value based on the basic measurables? In other words, the theories and models hold form until you reach the depths of one of the worst (era-adjusted) slugging offenses in the history of baseball?

That’s certainly an interesting idea…

If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.

by GhettoBear04 on Jul 27, 2010 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think there's definitely something to be explored

in terms of run environment and customized linear weights. It’s been raised before, but there have been doubts about how much of a difference it makes. Maybe this is a situation where it does…

by Josh Garoon on Jul 27, 2010 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

You do raise a good point about it not being a terrible way to build a team given the franchise's circumstances, while you're reloading below the surface for the future

"LSJ is jealous that the M’s fans have a sucky team that they can whine and snark about. We’re stuck with a good team in first place." -- Adam Von Marriagesmasher

"I’m gonna go on record here and say a great many things excuse throwing a chair at someone." – D.A. Tron

by WestTxAg06 on Jul 27, 2010 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah,

I never could figure out why folks thought the Mariners were in it. The only team I was much worried about were the Angels because of their annoying habit of hanging around.

"Look, we're basically on earth to shit and fuck. So unless your job's to help people shit or fuck, it's not that important, so relax."-https://twitter.com/shitmydadsays

by DJCahill on Jul 27, 2010 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

I thought there was a chance the M defense + Lee/Hernandez may carry the day

But it clearly would have needed some optimistic offensive projections (to say the least)

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Baker is a very unlikable person

LL tends to ignore his words

…they should send down Huntington & Nutting, because they aren’t ready, either. - royshowell

by Marinerfanjake on Jul 27, 2010 3:59 PM CDT reply actions  

...

Regardless of if LL likes him, do you disagree with the content, albeit rantlike, that Z put Wak in a poor position to complete with a poorly constructed lineup and is basically leaving the coaching staff out to dry?

by jf55510 on Jul 27, 2010 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly

Seattle’s offense was so predictably terrible.

Griffey, Sweeney, Garko, and Kotchman are a horrible quartet of players that were pseudo-depended on to be a large part of the slugging element of the team.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well

Well firing the hitting coach for a poor hitting lineup hitting poorly. Not taking Figgins to the woodshed after his shenanigans. Not giving Wak a lineup that was worth a damn. Other than Smoak, Ichiro and Gutierrez, which of those hitters are worth anything? Sure Wilson gives them some great D but he bat is terrible. That is a AAA lineup that Z threw out there.

by jf55510 on Jul 27, 2010 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

So in terms of leaving the coaching staff out to dry,

you’re just repeating Baker’s two points: firing the hitting coach and not making Figgins apologize.

In terms of the former: Cockrell was fired way back on May 9, right? And Wakamatsu basically expressed his understanding of why Zduriencik fired him, no?

And so that really leaves us with Zduriencik not forcing Figgins to apologize, which seems like a silly critique to hang the whole article on. Since when is the GM wholly responsible for disciplining players? Isn’t that at least partially Wakamatsu’s job?

As for assembling the offensive personnel: of course that’s on Zduriencik. But the point of the article is not just that the Seattle offense has been terrible, but that Zduriencik has pinned the blame on the coaches’ tails.

by Josh Garoon on Jul 27, 2010 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

I assume that Baker is commenting

On the rumored rift growing between the FO and coaching staff. That Z should stick up more for his coaching staff and show support for it publicly instead of just being quiet.

I think it’s largely irrelevant unless Wak gets fired in the offseason, which would be surprising. But hey, it’s also the fodder that columnists live on.

If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.

by GhettoBear04 on Jul 27, 2010 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's exactly what he's commenting on.

And it’s a silly critique. What’s Zduriencik supposed to do, suspend Figgins? Demand an apology from him? Why can’t Wakamatsu do that? What has Wakamatsu said about it himself? Do we have evidence that Zduriencik is the (or even a) reason why something hasn’t been done? Is it possible they decided to handle it this way, and that the situation’s been resolved to everyone’s satisfaction ~ except, obviously, Geoff Baker’s?

I don’t know. But to use that as the basis for a claim that Zduriencik has hung the coaching staff out to dry for the roster he constructed seems like a huge stretch, and the bad writing didn’t help make the case at all.

by Josh Garoon on Jul 27, 2010 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

I meant something more along the lines of the dreaded

Vote of Confidence.

Or some such. Realistically, it wouldn’t be hard for the M’s FO to put this sort of thing to rest instead of letting in fester, or at least relegating it to the realm of columnists looking for a bit instead of columnists who are on the leading edge of a story. It’s the same thing that JD does when Wash comes under fire.

If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.

by GhettoBear04 on Jul 27, 2010 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Even Baker admits that Zduriencik keeps repeating, "Wak is the manager."

So I’d take that as the dreaded Vote of Confidence…

I think Baker needed something fun to write about. Look at all the comments he’s getting about his piece on a Rangers blog!

GREAT SUCCESS!

by Josh Garoon on Jul 27, 2010 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ugh

I feel dirty.

If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.

by GhettoBear04 on Jul 27, 2010 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Kevin Blackistone just talked about how Tim Lincecum throws in the mid 90s with no problems.

It doesn’t offend me when these idiots don’t know something like the fact that Lincecum doesn’t throw that hard. It offends me that they state things like that when they don’t actually know. If you don’t know what you’re talking about, talk about the things you do.

by philkid3 on Jul 27, 2010 4:06 PM CDT reply actions  

But there's a decent chance...

that Kevin Blackistone doesn’t know anything and therefore shouldn’t talk about anything.

by ghostofErikThompson on Jul 27, 2010 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

oh man

a mute Kevin Blackistone? What a wonderful world that would be.

by JimCrankshaft on Jul 27, 2010 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

In his defense

Didn’t Timmy used to average around 94-95 mph when he came up?

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes.

But he doesn’t now. So saying he does is being misinformed. And he shouldn’t be talking about things he’s not informed on. It hurts his ethos.

by philkid3 on Jul 27, 2010 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree

I’m just saying, I understand the mistake.

These guys don’t spend all day reading about sports—they’re only TV Superstars/Sports Journalists (and not the other way around).

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

And I find that offensive.

But, again, it’s not that he doesn’t know Lincecum’s velocity. It’s that he doesn’t know it but acts like he does.

by philkid3 on Jul 27, 2010 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Poorly researched, yes

But if you told me a 22-yr old averaged 95 on their fastball as a rookie, and said 22-yr old won 2 cy youngs… I don’t think I’d google his velocity before declaring him a present fireballer only 2 years later.

I’d imagine it’s a pretty rare instance where this happens.

Clearly he doesn’t read enough bloggings, which have become a fantastic source of information on baseball players. But, I don’t expect the local sports journalists to be reading pitchFX or fangraphs (especially re: SF pitchers).

I think it’s an innocent mistake.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

"I don’t expect the local sports journalists to be reading pitchFX or fangraphs."

Why not?

It’s at least in part the low expectations of readers that allow local sports journalists to do what they do.

by Josh Garoon on Jul 27, 2010 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, if you want to direct this conversation towards the industry

Then I agree that the sports journalism industry should catch up with the times.

However, I’d imagine there aren’t many sports journalists for major newspapers who read these sites (could be wrong, just my opinion).

I just think it’s a little harsh to call out Blackistone for a minor factual mistake and to claim that sports journalists on sports talk shows should not talk about subjects without 100% certainty… especially on unscripted shows.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

But it's not a minor mistake.

It’s been a central element of the Lincecum story. I didn’t hear the broadcast, but frankly, reporters who go on air and make basic mistakes should be upbraided for them. Their job is to get the facts right. Yeah, it’s “just sports.” It’s also “just a job.” If they can’t do their job, they should be replaced by someone who can.

by Josh Garoon on Jul 27, 2010 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'm not saying it would have been tough

But he assumed he knew Timmy’s velo because he certainly read about it a year or two ago, which I don’t fault him for.

Are you going to read up on Brian Wilson’s velocity before you cite him as a flamethrower? You might to be careful, but I don’t fault a guy for working under the assumption that a pitcher notorious for his high velocity, small body type, to spout something under the assumption that he hasn’t lost it.

Again, innocent mistake.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

So, you're going to be on a 30-minute show 5x a week

And you are going to cover players/stories from all over the country every single day.

In addition to that, you write daily articles for a newspaper (this, being the aspect of your job that receives the most criticism/critique/praise).

You’re going to spend the time carefully researching every tidbit of information you’re about to discuss in the tv show without any reliance on past knowledge? I think you might be lacking in time to achieve those aspirations.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Daily articles?

Since when does Blackistone write daily articles?

And do you not think he has a staff that helps him? Do you think he’s doing all of the work by himself?

And if he knows he’s going on a show to talk about baseball, and is acting as a journalist?

I think you’re giving him way too much leeway.

by Josh Garoon on Jul 27, 2010 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe I am

I just think you and phil are improperly and unfairly projecting your ambitions as budding (fantastic) sports writers onto someone with a completely different perspective.

Both of you would kill for his job, therefore, you’d spend as much time researching to assure perfection before attempting his job, I’m sure.

And, I’d be surprised if a staff helps him with the TV show.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

What?

I harbor exactly zero ambition to become a professional sports journalist. I certainly wouldn’t kill for Blackistone’s job.

And I’d be very surprised if ESPN doesn’t provide assistance for the people appearing on Around the Horn ~ but even if not, you don’t think FanHouse and AOL provide him with help?

by Josh Garoon on Jul 27, 2010 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe I'm wrong, I'm speaking from ignorance there

I’d be surprised if they helped him produce for another company, but maybe it’s worth the PR.

Sorry to guess at your ambitions, I (wrongly) assumed everyone who writes sports articles would love to get paid well to do so (which, is probably looking at it too simplistically).

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

I mean help in his columns, not on AtH.

Whichever way it goes, he’s not doing all of the work by his lonesome. And I don’t think he appears on AtH five days a week, does he?

(He also teaches journalism at UMd, by the way.)

by Josh Garoon on Jul 27, 2010 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ah, thanks

I’m not an expert on KB’s doings.

I just assume being correct on every tidbit of information he throws out on AtH is pretty low on his totem pole of priorities.

I’m also playing devil’s advocate, here. I’m not that passionate one way or another. I just think people tend to hate on others a little too easily.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well. . .

I think a lot of this is ESPN having people talk too often about things that they just don’t know about. But I also think it’s entirely possible to not express things as facts when you don’t know one way or the other.

If he didn’t have time to look up a little bit about Tim Lincecum before going on the show, fine. Then he shouldn’t state anything specific about Tim LIncecum.

And, certainly, you understand the issue isn’t just this one instance, but a huge trend of problems with media people, and this is just one representation.

by philkid3 on Jul 27, 2010 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Style over substance?

At ESPN?

Surely, you jest.

If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.

by GhettoBear04 on Jul 27, 2010 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Brett Michaels...

lead singer of WAM… gay?! Surely, you jest.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with the fact that ESPN does a poor job of caring about the details

Also, I don’t think KB should say “I haven’t researched that properly” when asked about Tim Lincecum on the show. It’d be a terrible career move.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

It was a lot better

before you attributed my critique of Blackistone to my envy of him and/or his job.

by Josh Garoon on Jul 27, 2010 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fair enough

I apologize for that. I don’t know much about the industry and improperly assumed that ESPN was the ideal end game for aspiring journalists.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

No worries.

I honestly don’t know whether ESPN is an ideal endgame for aspiring sports journalists, either. Could well be.

But, assuming we’re talking about BBTiA: I love writing for it. I love Matches, Parks, and David. I’d completely support them if/when/as they pursued careers in or related to baseball. But for me, it’s avocational.

by Josh Garoon on Jul 27, 2010 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right on

And I don’t blame you; that’s a pretty fantastic bunch you guys have over there. We’re all lucky to have them writing about the Rangers.

I wish I found a way to make money and love my job :)… alas I’m a soon-to-be attorney.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

It is for most in the industry

but that’s more a product of a boosted ego and inflated bank account than an actual desire to work there.

http://oursaviorchuck.ytmnd.com/

by Conjunction on Jul 27, 2010 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

I do expect them to, though, if they're going to talk about it.

That’s what I’m saying. I don’t expect Kevin Blackistone to know much about Tim Lincecum. But I don’t expect him to talk about him, either. ANd if he does, he makes himself look like an idiot without doing at least a little research first.

And, in the interest of full disclosure, I’m coming at this from the perspective of a journalism student who’s very angry by the people who don’t do thorough or intelligent jobs but probably make more money in the field than I ever will.

by philkid3 on Jul 27, 2010 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're young and aspiring

KB is old, experienced, likely job safe, and has a family (I’m assuming)… you two likely have very different allocations of time and priority, imo.

I’m not arguing at you. Clearly your perfectionist nature is not a bane, by any means. I think it’s great and a needed attribute from someone who is trying to work their way into the field.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

So being old, experienced, job-secure, and in a family way

means that a journalist no longer has an obligation to report basic facts correctly?

It’s not like Lincecum’s velocity drop was below the radar, or that Lincecum himself is a minor figure in baseball.

by Josh Garoon on Jul 27, 2010 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

It means he's more likely to take shortcuts and base his assertions on prior knowledge

Like assuming the velocity of a 25 year old is at or above what the same pitcher’s velocity was 3 years earlier (when he’s dominated each year of pitching).

Also, I read a fair amount of sports information per day, and I had not come across the Tim Lincecum velocity thing until fangraphs wrote about it recently.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Arrrrgh... Not it's not

It’s his job to spout opinions and be interesting, nothing more. Sure, he needs to have some solid grounding of knowledge, but they talk about every sport on that show, and no one can be spot-on with their facts for everything, can they?

If being factually correct becomes the bar for being on ESPN talk shows, they will need to go back to showing ping-pong highlights and cancel all the talking head shows.

The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano

by bking on Jul 27, 2010 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's the nature of show-biz

People are always going to argue about what’s more important: generating revenue or quality of the product.

The American people have spoken and clearly do not give a rat’s ass about how wrong ESPN is all the time.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think my sticking point would be with the use of "content"

I seriously doubt he’s OK with “just being an entertainer” and blowing a point like that, but the reality is that the motivation to exhaustively stay on top of everything probably isn’t there.

The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano

by bking on Jul 27, 2010 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's Tim Lincecum.

This wasn’t a minor story about some middling pitcher. And it’s not late-breaking news.

Would you be fine with it if he’d gone on and claimed Kobe Bryant shot the lights out in Game 7 of the NBA Finals this year?

by Josh Garoon on Jul 27, 2010 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Your way off base here.

For one, Lincecum’s loss of velocity isn’t obscure or recent news. For another, being a little bit informed on him isn’t exhaustive research. For another, the way to avoid being wrong is to just not state things as facts when you don’t actually know anything.

by philkid3 on Jul 27, 2010 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ok,

I understand that it’s unrealistic to expect general sport columnists to keep up with minor details on the sports stars from each sport. They spend a lot of time generating content, so there’s going to be some generalizations that they throw out that they just haven’t checked on in a while that more hardcore fans are going to catch. They can always strive to be better, and if they’re good, we’ll normally give them a pass.

But that’s not what’s going on here. First of all, Blackistone is routinely poorly informed. Then you put him in a position where he’s having to give lots of opinions, which is like having me make a 12 course dinner for the President. The most egregious part of this specific story, though, is that Lincecum’s velocity drop isn’t just the domain of the SABR-friendly folk. Here’s a Yahoo! story about it. There’s an ESPN Insider article about it from this spring. I even feel like they talked to Lincecum about it and he’s more than aware of it, changing his pitching approach to match it.

I don’t think it’s unrealistic to expect somebody who is supposed to be knowledgeable about sports in general to know about a Cy Young winner’s drop in velocity that has been reported on from more than one source.

If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.

by GhettoBear04 on Jul 27, 2010 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

OT: The Mexacutioner is awesome
The Yankees are one of six teams on the no-trade list of Royals closer Joakim Soria, reports ESPN’s Andrew Marchand.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 4:13 PM CDT reply actions   2 recs

Hahahahaha I love him now.

I might see if I can find a shirt of his just for that.

"I’ve been a Rangers fan all my life and I can tell you there’s been plenty of fucking crying in baseball…" - WhipSmart, 6.3.08

by Lisa W on Jul 27, 2010 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

The best nickname in baseball just got that much better.

"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz

"Baseball's all that's real" - JB

by Cecilio's Guante on Jul 27, 2010 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, he is a closer

and Mariano Rivera isn’t moving anytime soon.

by Perfect Zero on Jul 27, 2010 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

SILENCE!!!

The Mexicutioner HATES the Yanks, this is the only explanation!!!

"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz

"Baseball's all that's real" - JB

by Cecilio's Guante on Jul 27, 2010 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks

You used better words than I would have.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good call

I’m waiting for it to get to the dollars for my 2nd go at it.

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nolan loves him some haunting memories of dead women.

I’d probably make jokes about it if his movies weren’t so damn good regardless.

by Closure GT on Jul 27, 2010 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Heh

Sounds a little like Mel Gibson with his “every character I play has to have a scene where he gets tortured” thing…

by RCCook on Jul 27, 2010 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

david beuhler

is talkin on the field w/corby right now, pretty damn funny

by studcrackers on Jul 27, 2010 5:15 PM CDT reply actions  

w000

Buckel signed via Newberg

by BuckyB on Jul 27, 2010 5:47 PM CDT reply actions  

Is Figgins the new GMJ?

That contract looks absolutely terrible right now…

by jcir454 on Jul 27, 2010 6:48 PM CDT reply actions  

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