Jeremy Bonderman not expecting to return to Detroit
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 26, 2010 12:32 PM CDT
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PrintJeremy Bonderman said after yesterday's game that he doesn't expect to be back with the Tigers in 2011.
Bonderman is a free agent at the end of the season. He was initially acquired by the Tigers in that big three-way deal where basically every player involved ended up disappointing the acquiring team -- Jeff Weaver with the Yankees, Bonderman, Carlos Pena and Franklyn German with the Tigers, and Ted Lilly, John-Ford Griffin, and Jason Arnold with the A's.
Normally this isn't something that would be front-page-worthy, but I think it is worth pointing out because Bonderman is someone the Rangers have had interest in in the past. He's a guy who was a first rounder in the 2001 draft, and is a lot like Adam Eaton was when the Rangers traded for Eaton, in that he is someone seen as having a lot of talent, but who has had a lot of issues with injuries, and who has failed to convert the talent and stuff into results.
The Rangers are probably going to be in the market for veteran starting pitching depth after this season, and I wouldn't be surprised if Bonderman is someone they ended up making a push for. I have no idea what the market is going to be like for Bonderman -- I imagine he'll at least get a major league deal, as compared to an NRI -- but I expect we'll be hearing in November and December that he's someone the Rangers are going to be looking at pursuing.
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So do you give him a one year deal, MLB team
Or a minor league deal? He could get a mlb deal from somebody I think, so you will probably have to go there…
Wilson
Lewis
Hunter
Holland
Feldman
Where does he fit into that?
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by FormerLSBUser on Sep 26, 2010 12:34 PM CDT reply actions
I would imagine
that the Rangers signing Bonderman means that they’ve gotten someone to take on Feldman and his contract.
I suspect the Rangers don’t want to waste time with Feldman anymore, and figure some low-tier team will give them something marginal for him and the right to pay him $5/year.
Go Rice Owls!
x
I suspect the Rangers don’t want to waste time with Feldman anymore,
So in a few months, they went from giving him a 3 year deal and making him their Opening Day starter to not wanting to waste time with him?
Come on. Feldman will be in the rotation next year, most likely.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 26, 2010 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah,
I agree with this. I know JB thinks they can trade Feldman, but I just don’t see it. I’m pretty confident in Feldman/Hunter/Lewis/Wilson being in the rotation next year.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
JB just wants Feldman gone...
…because he wants a rotation spot to be open for Harrison.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 26, 2010 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions
nah
Harry needs to earn himself a rotation spot. I think he’s been good this year in the bullpen (better than I would have thought), but he doesn’t deserve a spot. I’m happy with him as a bullpen guy who can go long and fill in if/when an injury happens to a rotation piece. Basically a lefty Dustin Nippert with talent and a good ceiling.
I just think Feldman is the type of guy who is great if they’re cheap and a real waste of money if they are expensive. I don’t mind giving Hunter a rotation spot since he costs 500K, I very much mind giving Feldman a rotation spot for $4 million. Someone else can pay that money if they want to.
Go Rice Owls!
Except
I really doubt JD can find someone who wants to.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
It's funny
because it seems like while I say they should trade Feldman; you seem convinced that no one would want him, whereas Adam seems to think that Feldman is a valuable asset who the Rangers would be silly to try to give away if someone did want him.
I look like the extreme point of view, but you and Adam are actually the ones who disagree the most about Feldman.
Go Rice Owls!
If
Adam thinks the Rangers can really get anything in return for him, he is a little wacky.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I'm not advocating getting anything in return for him
just getting a Hamburger for him and the other team pays his contract.
If Scott Feldman hadn’t been signed to that contract, he’d be a huge non-tender candidate this offseason.
Go Rice Owls!
I think my point is that...
…just giving him away, or flat releasing him, as some have suggested, is silly, given that the Rangers can use him in their rotation.
If he were currently on a one year deal, would you be advocating non-tendering him this offseason, or giving him away for nothing?
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 26, 2010 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Feldman would be a classic non-tender candidate
if he weren’t under contract. $4 million for a guy who may / may not make the rotation?
Go Rice Owls!
I don't know what there is to bet
But I’m willing to wager that Scott Feldman is not a Ranger on April 1, 2011
Go Rice Owls!
Well....
He wouldn’t be non-tendered because there’s no way he would get a raise to $4.4 million next season in arbitration.
by Darrell McKown on Sep 26, 2010 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions
If someone would pick up his contract
and give us nothing in return, it would be a win, imo. That’s just a bad contract, and we could probably replace him with minor leaguers and use the money elsewhere.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
So in a few months, they went from giving him a 3 year deal and making him their Opening Day starter to not wanting to waste time with him?
Well, in a few months, they have gone from giving him a 3 year deal and making him their Opening Day starter to most likely not even including him on the post-season roster.
by Darrell McKown on Sep 26, 2010 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Holland would start the season in AAA
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 26, 2010 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Why? Innings management?
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by FormerLSBUser on Sep 26, 2010 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
?
You dont think he would be one of the top 5 best starters out of this larger group, that he should start the year with the team? Even if its just in the bullpen as a lefty arm? You would take Bonderman over Holland?
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by FormerLSBUser on Sep 26, 2010 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think he signs
a minor league deal, so since you can put Holland in the minors, and he really hasn’t forced his way into the rotation, if you pick up an MLB FA, Holland looks to me to be the odd man out.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I think he might be the 4th or 5th best starter
However, if everyone else can’t be sent to the minors, then he’ll end up going to the minors.
I don’t see the point of putting Holland in the bullpen to start the season.
And I am not saying that I’d take Bonderman over Holland. However, I could see the team signing Bonderman or someone similar, and having them be the 5th starter to start the season, with Holland starting in AAA.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 26, 2010 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions
I think folks
undervalue the luxury of 6th and 7th starters. As common as pitching injuries are, they are nice to have.
We had, what, 3 of our opening day starters spit the bit and run themselves out of the rotation this year?
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
6th and 7th starters are great luxuries
if they’re cheap.
This team isn’t going to have ALL that much money to spend, and there are clearly several giant holes that mean a heck of a lot more to the club’s success than who will fill in if Hunter gets injured. Spending however many million Bonderman is going to want just so Holland can be your nice 6th rotation piece sounds good until you realize it means going into 2011 with Teagarden as your main catcher or Davis/Moreland as the 1b/DH combo.
The club is awash in decent #6/#7 guys. Harrison and Kirkman immediately could fill the role, Scheppers possibly isn’t too far off.
Go Rice Owls!
I don't think you are being realistic about the Rangers' budget
Signing Bonderman for a one year deal at $2 million or so isn’t going to mean the Rangers can’t add a catcher or a DH.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 26, 2010 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions
I think he gets a one year deal
And I’m guessing it will be for around $2-3 million.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 26, 2010 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess
But would you want to commit that money to Bonderman, to just be a 5th starter/spot starter?
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by FormerLSBUser on Sep 26, 2010 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Problem is...
that if Lee leaves the Rangers don’t need a guy like Bonderman. They have enough guys that can be 4/5 starter. You can’t give Bonderman that kind of money, and you wouldn’t have to.
They will need another TORP to get back to the playoffs next year and make some noise if/once they get there.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Eh
Im not sure they need a TORP, more than they need another solid 2-3 that makes their top 5 or 6 starters above average. That with a productive offense and strong defense, they can make the playoffs going forward.
And, CJ could be a TORP next year. So he could qualify in that role.
I would rather go with these guys than give Bonderman a couple mill to ride the pine pony.
Wilson
Lewis
Hunter
Holland
Feliz
Harrison
McCarthy
Moscoso
Perez
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by FormerLSBUser on Sep 26, 2010 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions
I would love to see...
a rotation next year of Wilson, Lewis, Hunter, Holland, and Feliz if Lee leaves.
But I very seriously doubt the Rangers will do that. Feldman will be in there somewhere and I’ll bet Wash and Maddux fight to keep Feliz in the ’pen.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Where's Kirkman?
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
He wouldnt be in that group if he goes back to being a starter
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by FormerLSBUser on Sep 26, 2010 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Im glad you got that joke
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by FormerLSBUser on Sep 26, 2010 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Of that group
Feliz and Harrison are going to be in the bullpen.
McCarthy won’t be here.
That means you’ve got Moscoso and Perez as your primary backup options if someone in the rotation goes down.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 26, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Right
And they dont cost 7 figures to do so
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by FormerLSBUser on Sep 26, 2010 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions
That's a viable plan if you are in rebuilding mode
If you’re the defending A.L. West champs, though, and expecting to repeat and do something in the playoffs in 2011, you don’t go into the 2011 season with Guillermo Moscoso and Martin Perez and Omar Beltre as your backup options in the rotation.
That’s just not realistic.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 26, 2010 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Forgot Beltre
Add him on there
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by FormerLSBUser on Sep 26, 2010 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Pffft
they make the playoffs this year even if they never made the Lee deal.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Exactly
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by FormerLSBUser on Sep 26, 2010 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Sure...
but relying on the division to be this bad year after year is not a good idea. The A’s are going to look for some offense this offseason and their pitching is only going to get better. While we know the Halos are going to be willing to spend big to fill any holes they have.
And even though the Rangers would have made the playoffs this year without Lee, they probably wouldn’t have much of a chance in the playoffs without him at the front of their rotation.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
And you can't bank on the #6 organization to just roll over
actually you can – that team is finishing last for many years…
You’re absolutely right that this team needs to address the TOP of the rotation. CJ and Colby look great as your 2/3. They’re even solid 1/2 if there is a very good #3 to go along with them. But they’re troublesome when the best of the rest is Tommy Hunter.
This team HAS to address catcher, 1b, top to middle of the rotation, and DH this offseason. Obviously a little depth in CF and the MY at 3rd situation would be a nice bonus.
Go Rice Owls!
Yeah...
BGL and Colbyashi are a great 2/3. I don;t think the Ranger have to have an ace like Lee, but they at leat need another guy on the same level as Wilson and Lewis.
I don’t think someone liek Bonderman is that guy.
Obviously 1B and catcher are issues too. I actually think Vlad will be back next year at DH. Although if he’s not I like the idea of rotating guys like Hamilton, Cruz, MY, and Kinsler at DH.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Well
You probably need to go out and find a catcher and a DH or 1B type.
I don’t think you have to go add a DH and a 1B — you probably just need to address one or the other, particularly given that you likely are going to want to use the DH spot to spell Hamilton more often in 2011 than you have this year.
As for as SP goes, if you can’t go get a legit #1/#2 type — and I don’t think you can, unless you want to give up a Teixeira-type package for Greinke — I think you are best served adding a cheap back-end guy for depth purposes on a one year deal and moving on.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 26, 2010 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess I don't see the value of a "back-end guy"
I think the team is better off taking a couple of Harden or Lewis type risks and hoping one pans out; as opposed to going into the year with a player who, at best, is going to be mediocre.
What would you say the 80th, 50th, and 20th case scenarios are for Bonderman? His best-case, median, and worst-case scenarios?
Go Rice Owls!
A Harden type is fine
I wouldn’t put Lewis in that category, though, because I think the feeling was that Lewis would probably be a back-end guy…he’s exceeded expectations.
That said, I don’t know that there are that many Harden-type injury risks on the market this offseason. Chris Young, maybe, if the Padres decline his option? Brandon Webb?
If you can find a high-risk, high-reward type this offseason, I’d pursue that. I just don’t see any obvious options for that sort.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 26, 2010 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Webb isn't a bad idea if you can get him.
He probably has more value right now than Harden did.
I've been trying to convince my family of the magic of cumin. They won't listen to me. It makes almost everything better.- PhilKid3, 8/16/2010.
No way
Webb hasn’t pitched in the majors this year, and had 4 innings in 2009.
A guy coming off of two missed years has a lot less value than someone like Harden, who had pitched very well the previous couple of years, and who had pitched the bulk of each season.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 26, 2010 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Webb
With our middle infield defense, he would be a good guy to target on a low base, high incentive deal.
He won’t cost as much as Harden did, but I suspect he will get a major league contract.
by Darrell McKown on Sep 26, 2010 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions
I think Lewis exceeded expectations
but I think there was a feeling among the Rangers that Lewis could be what he became. There was quite a bit of optimistic talk.
Bonderman has almost no ceiling to hope for. He’s going to be a 5.00 +/- 0.50 ERA pitcher, depending on the ballpark. Yeah, he’ll eat innings. But so can lots of guys. It seems insane that you’d go with Bonderman over Holland- yeah, Holland may give you a similar or worse performance, but he could also be much, much better.
Go Rice Owls!
I don't know that it is really any different...
…than the way the BoSox handled Clay Buchholz the previous couple of seasons.
What do you think the chances are that the Rangers will make it to June 1, 2011, with the planned rotation intact?
Someone will get hurt in spring training, or the first month or two of the season, or pitch terribly, or whatever.
The Rangers used 10 different SPs this year. We were crowing this spring about how great the team’s SP depth was, and we still ended up with Omar Beltre and Dustin Nippert making starts.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 26, 2010 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I understand the depth position
I’m all for depth.
But save the low-ceiling guys you acquire for depth for when the depth is needed, not at the expense of players who actually may amount to something greater than a replacement level pitcher. At least when the Red Sox were keeping Buccholz in the minors they were doing so because they had some hope that Brad Penny and Dice-K would be good. I don’t think the Rangers would have similar such hopes about Jeremy Bonderman.
But if you can get him for $2 million, like you say, then you may as well, at least he’d only be the 2nd most overpaid mediocre back of the rotation pitcher on the club.
Go Rice Owls!
What do you do with the low-ceiling depth guys, though?
If it is someone who isn’t good enough to get a major league deal, and thus you can stash in the minors, then it is someone who you probably aren’t going to want to use for more than an emergency start or two.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 26, 2010 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions
The problem I see
I don’t have any problem with Holland starting the season in AAA. In fact, I would be fine with Holland, Harrison, Scheppers and Kirkman all beginning the season in the AAA rotation, with at least Holland and Harrison likely being ready to step in when needed.
If that’s the case, and you acquiesce to Feldman being in the rotation, then the only way to really have room for another guy like Bonderman in the rotation is if Lee is gone. But then you are looking at a rotation of Wilson, Lewis, Hunter, Feldman and Bonderman, and I don’t think that’s good enough.
by Darrell McKown on Sep 26, 2010 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions
No one said it was easy
I guess it is just a decision you have to make. Is the difference between Bonderman and Omar Beltre so much that you accept sacrificing at least some of the potential associated with a guy like Holland?
It’ll be an indicator of what type of mindset the Rangers go into the offseason with. What you are advocating really amounts to just filling the back of the rotation with guys that aren’t going to win a championship themselves, but it won’t keep you out of it either.
But if you’re going to ride the arms of the rotation to victory in 2011, the team is going to have to hope that one of their back end guys steps up, the way that Lewis and Wilson both did this year. And frankly, it is silly to hope for a jump to #2 from a Hunter, Feldman, or Bonderman.
Go Rice Owls!
So....
You are saying that Holland can’t step up in 2011 just because he pitches four to six weeks in AAA at the start of the season?
by Darrell McKown on Sep 26, 2010 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't see any added value in players like Bonderman
There is no reason to clog up your 25 and 40 man rosters and your payroll with guys whose ceiling is probably about 1 WAR and expected value is just over 0 WAR. Either you go out and sign/trade for someone who has potential to make a meaningful contribution, or you roll with your actual replacement level players who at least have some potential to give you a solid 2 or 2.5 WAR season.
So you think Holland needs time in AAA? Sure, then give it to him. Use Kirkman, or Harrison, or Beltre, or even Nippert (who we’re going to probably non-tender) if you must. Yeah, they may be awful. They may be worse than Bonderman. But if they are, you DFA them or you demote them and move on.
We’ve been down the road of having a crappy player getting chance after chance to rebound since they get paid a non-trivial amount way too many times.
Go Rice Owls!
Well....
We’ve been down the road of having a crappy player getting chance after chance to rebound since they get paid a non-trivial amount way too many times.
Like Colby Lewis this year?
by Darrell McKown on Sep 26, 2010 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions
huh?
Colby Lewis hasn’t been bad at all this season – he started out great and kept it up.
Go Rice Owls!
Yeah
But he signed to provide depth in the starting rotation. If the Rangers had applied your line of thinking last offseason, they wouldn’t have signed Lewis, but rather would have gone along the path of using “Kirkman, or Harrison, or Beltre, or even Nippert.”
by Darrell McKown on Sep 27, 2010 7:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Nah, I don't see this being a possibility
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
I was hoping with new ownership that we wouldn't need to shop
as frequently at Misfit Island for our starting pitchers.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
Once you get past Cliff Lee...
…pretty much every SP on the market this offseason comes from the Misfit Island.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 26, 2010 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Which is why I'd jump on that proposal you threw out last week for Grienke.
'Waiting for a girl and she gets me into fights
Waiting for a girl we get drunk on Friday night'
Greinke has a 4.23 ERA this year
If he were here right now, he’d have the 5th best ERA among the rotation members.
by Adam J. Morris on Sep 26, 2010 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't you expect a bounce back from him?
He’s a legit ace that we’re gonna be missing. Otherwise, it’s just another Lee-type trade waiting to happen. Might as well try to get a guy for the full year if were gonna give up top prospects.
'Waiting for a girl and she gets me into fights
Waiting for a girl we get drunk on Friday night'
Do you think he would be the 5th best pitcher
in this rotation?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
Proposal mighta been the wrong word. It was more 'what it would take'
Perez
Profar
Harrison
Hunter
'Waiting for a girl and she gets me into fights
Waiting for a girl we get drunk on Friday night'
Then I stay off of Misfit Island this off-season as it pertains to starting pitchers.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"The Influence continues." Josey Wales (1/18/10)
Doubtful...
I think the main need in the rotation next year is not a pitcher like Bonderman, but at least a reliable #2-3 guy who can give you slightly lower, if not similar level of performance as Lewis/Wilson and a good amount of innings- the rest of the rotation simply isn’t good / reliable enough otherwise for a contending team defending champ.
Another possibility is if they see him as something of a lottery ticket, but these signing are usually like Seattle’s Bedard signing or Oakland’s Duschererererer signing this year, where you have a reasonable expectation for decent performance if the pitcher is healthy, and if they are healthy, you give a rotation spot to them. Bonderman was reasonably healthy this year – the first since his good 2007 season, but he was pretty terrible this season, and is not someone I think they would promise a rotation spot to. Someone like Webb would be a much more likely fit for this spot if they decide to go this route.
Last would be to have him as a SP depth, which would be fine, but probably won’t happen unless he takes a NRI.
And, just thought of this
Aren’t we discussing moving Neftali to the rotation? Where would he slot in?
IDK, I just think we would offer him too much money for him to sit in AAA and maybe start 5 games for the Rangers.
"Hey Sanka, you can pee now... uuummm, too late...."
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by FormerLSBUser on Sep 26, 2010 1:04 PM CDT reply actions
The last thing we need is another Eaton
Let him go to the Angels and get hurt and suck up millions on their payroll
by De Peche Ranger on Sep 26, 2010 1:05 PM CDT reply actions
Jeremy Bonderdouch is the last person I want to see in this rotation, give me Fedman any day...
by De Peche Ranger on Sep 26, 2010 1:07 PM CDT reply actions
If Lee signs elsewhere...
which I expect him to, I suspect the Rangers will look to fill his spot at the top of the rotation via trade rather than through free agency.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Already did. :)
'Waiting for a girl and she gets me into fights
Waiting for a girl we get drunk on Friday night'
I was thinking...
more along the lines of Garza.
I know he’s not an ace. But with the depth of young pitching that the Rays have, and their financial restraints, I would guess he’ll be available. He’d be worth kicking the tires on to see who Tampa would want in return imo.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Whoa
Hello 4 years, 70 million
"Hey Sanka, you can pee now... uuummm, too late...."
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by FormerLSBUser on Sep 26, 2010 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
minimum
"Hey Sanka, you can pee now... uuummm, too late...."
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by FormerLSBUser on Sep 26, 2010 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Is that what he is still owed?
I thought he only had 2 years left on his current contract?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
He is a FA after this year I think
Or he is coming up on third year arb.
"Hey Sanka, you can pee now... uuummm, too late...."
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by FormerLSBUser on Sep 26, 2010 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
A Garza type player
is a much more reasonable target.
No need to go after a guy who already has a Cy Young who every other team in the league would be salivating at the thought of acquiring. Just go for a solid #2 type guy on a team with whom a mutually beneficial deal can be worked out. A Greinke-type is going to cost too much, for the simple reason that every other team in baseball would love to have him.
Go Rice Owls!
how about one of Oakland's young pitchers?
anyone think we could lift one of those guys in a trade, and would it be worth it?
Like for who for example?
Who’d be willing to deal one of their top-of-the-rotation guys? I guess the circumstances that would make a team amenable to doing so would be that pitcher is getting too expensive and/or is not living up to his contract, and that team has prospects able to take his spot in the rotation.
I can only think of a few guys with top-end potential in that situation: Zambrano, Dice-K, and A.J. Burnett. I think both CHI, BOS, and NYY respectively would be willing to pay a lot of their salaries just to get them off their hands.
CIN might decline Bronson Arroyo’s option given their pitching depth.
Troy McClure: "Don’t kid yourself, Jimmy! If a cow ever got the chance, he’d eat you and everyone you care about!"
by stupidsexyflanders on Sep 26, 2010 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Rangers consider three-man rotation for ALDS
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Roy. Williams.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
I think Jeff Francis might be an interesting depth option
and shouldn’t cost too much if the Rockies don’t keep him around.
When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream.
He would be an interesting name to throw in there with Webb I think.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
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