Rangers offer for Garza
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2011 4:01 PM CST
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PrintPer T.R. Sullivan, the Rangers really wanted Matt Garza, and came close to getting him.
Sullivan quotes Peter Gammons as saying the Rangers' offer for Garza consisted of Derek Holland, Frankie Francisco, Engel Beltre, and Robinson Chirinos (who would apparently have been acquired from the Cubs by Texas in a separate deal, then sent to Tampa).
Tampa wanted Archer as part of the trade, though, and the Cubs finally coughed up Archer. Absent that, it sounds like Garza would have been a Ranger.
That would have been a steep package to give up for Garza, and once again, the Rangers apparently were pursuing a deal that involved giving up Derek Holland, which continues to lead me to wonder how much confident the team really is in him right now, and whether it is that much of a given that Holland will start 2011 in the Ranger rotation.
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Francisco is, strangely enough, the part I have the most trouble believing.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Agree...to an extent
I really have a hard time believing any of it because it doesnt make much sense at all from any perspective to me….
But at the same time i agree…if you want to trade Francisco, he could command a very good return from a lot of teams, and i dont see Tampa being that interested in him.
Furthermore, he has a great shot at being a type A and getting us a 1st rounder if he walks
Josey Wales is stupid
Francisco is sorta similar to Soriano
Fairly similar talents/injury histories and the Rays traded for him after Atlanta offered him arb and he accepted, similar to the position FX2 is in right now.
Eh... He is going to be an expensive bullpen piece this year.
by FormerLSBUser on Jan 8, 2011 8:56 PM CST up reply actions
he will be making in the same neighborhood as Arthur Rhodes
and less than most of the FA relievers. He’s not at all expensive compared to most similar relievers.
it's hard for me to believe that Moreland wasn't part of the package
He just seems like the type of guy that the Rays would target as the second piece that would fill an immediate need.
Yeah....that too
I wouldve been willing to be a lot of money that Moreland was involved in any trade offer
Josey Wales is stupid
DP!!!
Where have you been?
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Jan 8, 2011 4:16 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
x
Hi, my name is Josey Wales and I'm a douche. Prove me wrong.
by boomer1 on Jan 8, 2011 4:18 PM CST up reply actions 7 recs
This is what happens after you punch it.
Hi, my name is Josey Wales and I'm a douche. Prove me wrong.
Hey buddy. I've been quasi-lurking.
Just enrolled back in school after a 5-year hiatus, so free-time is fucking obsolete, but I’m glad I stuck with my resolution
How’s Aquaman, the Aquawife and the Aquaspawn?
by dolphinpuncher on Jan 8, 2011 4:20 PM CST up reply actions
All good.
Your resolution was less LSB? There are less painful ways to punish yourself.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Jan 8, 2011 4:24 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Like self-immolation or testicular torsion..
I know dirkatron has made a triumphant return, and I doubt the blogosphere could withstand both of us occupying the same space at the same time.
by dolphinpuncher on Jan 8, 2011 4:31 PM CST up reply actions
No kidding...
That would have been such a boner-killer.
by ghostofErikThompson on Jan 8, 2011 4:06 PM CST up reply actions
Well, it's all Nolan's show now...
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Considering bust rates...
how would you feel about O’Day, Davis, and Francisco for Garza.
Holland and Beltre are not sure things.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Jan 8, 2011 5:15 PM CST up reply actions
This is a flawed argument
potential, while not as comforting as stability, has its own value. Holland is no sure thing, of course, but neither is Garza, given his awful pitching profile for pitching in a park like TBiA.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
What about FF's inclusion??
Seems like he would have a decent amount of trade value as a solid set up man… Especially if we were gonna throw money their way… Think the team is higher on Holland or Kirkman?
my better is better than your better.
by rangerjake on Jan 8, 2011 4:08 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Wow, that's rough.
Also, it sounds like Holland is on somebody’s shit list.
There's one word that describes baseball - `You never know.' - Joaquin Andujar
Is anyone
surprised by this? Given Thad’s IP criteria, he doesn’t exactly profile as a big time starter. I think they view him as a lottery ticket at this point, if he succeeds, great, but I don’t think their planning is based on him being a front rotation guy.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
careful
you’re stepping on Cahill’s bit.
by elvis1isking on Jan 8, 2011 10:25 PM CST up reply actions
One thing
do we know if this deal would have been for Garza straight up, or if Tampa would have included some other players?
And why would Tampa want Frankie?
Go Rice Owls!
THe same reason they take on other talented relievers
for the cheap saves and the type A free agency
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
I was wondering that about the Type A
but seems like Frankie as a FA next year would still be a risk to accept arbitration (or not be Type A). Of course, that is probably why Tampa wanted some $$$ too…
Go Rice Owls!
At some point
this distrust of guys like HOlland is going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy – someone doesn’t like him so let’s not give him a shot at the rotation, at which point we can trade him and say that he never proved himself.
At some point, I wish we’d shut the fuck up and just roll with him. Christ
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
At the same time...
…Seattle wasn’t interested in him headlining a Lee deal, Kansas City seems to have been uninclined to value him significantly as part of a Greinke deal, and now you have this…
It seems like the Rangers aren’t the only team that aren’t exactly overwhelmed by Holland’s potential right now.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2011 4:20 PM CST up reply actions
I was just thinking about that
it seems like other teams aren’t particularly giddy about Holland either. And to be completely honest, he’s had 200 major league innings and has shown flashes of greatness hidden in a whole lot of suck. And while he has pretty awesome minor league numbers, those really only add up to about two seasons worth (~280 innings).
That said, until this deal it isn’t like the other teams have taken offers that were noticeably worse than a “valuable Holland” level. Smoak is better than mosts everyone’s most optimistic takes on Holland. The Brewers deal for Greinke was very much need-centered, and it is hard to say that a deal built around Holland (and not Perez) would have changed anything.
Go Rice Owls!
195 IP with a 4.78 FIP 4.39 xFIP is a whole lot of suck?
What about 4.42 FIP 4.51 XFIP?
Because that was Garza in ‘10. And he’s 4.26/4.45 for his career.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
well, I'm not really arguing Holland's future
which is what peripherals are good for. I think that is it pretty bright.
But his results on the field – not peripherals, actual results – haven’t exactly been lighting anything up. A great FIP is great to have, but it isn’t going to boost your value if your ERA is 5.52. If you have a player who is being valued based on his results, not on what his results should have been or probably will be going forward, you probably shouldn’t trade him.
Go Rice Owls!
If at this point, if no one likes your very talented left hander
then why not just, you know, play your very talented, but erratic left hander?
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Only if it's horse steroids
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
by FirebatM3 on Jan 8, 2011 4:31 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
You have no idea how KC viewed him or if he was even on the table.
KC wanted position players, anyway. You are assuming too much.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Jan 8, 2011 4:32 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Agreed on the KC thing.
I thought the breakdown in the Greinke came from KC wanting major-league-ready position players.
I don't have any idea how KC viewed him
I do believe he was on the table, though.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2011 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
I think KC wanted to trade Greinke to fill in the few holes that their organization needs for 2012-2014
Derek Holland would be about the 6th best young lefty in their system. They’re absolutely loaded in left handed pitching. Holland may have had little value to KC, but that isn’t necessarily a reflection on Holland, but more a reflection on him belonging to the one asset class that KC needs absolutely no more of.
Go Rice Owls!
Yes. But, in this case, this thought has to be tempered by Tampa's financial situation.
If Tampa were to take on Holland+FF salary, they probably couldn’t get a bat in the FA market.
Archer — maybe the baseball world now views him as a higher ceiling that Holland; but, the description online of his tools/stuff wouldn’t suggest that.
Godspeed Mike Olt.
Which seems to be....
….the same type of situation as last off-season when there was so much banter about us being in the driver’s seat in trade value with our catchers at the time. Especially when dealing with Boston.
This site was so giddy about getting rid of the portly “One Man-Five Tools”, because we had Salty, Teagarden and MaxRam…AND we should be able to trade one of them to Boston for Buccholz. To the point we almost shouldn’t even consider Bard and what’s his name.
I think many times, we on this site, overvalue some of our young guys due to them “being cheap and under team control”. At the same time, griping about some guys making to much money based on WAR and other stuff. The league is designed that way, unlike the NFL, where you have to demonstrate stability and some track record before you get your payday. They aren’t getting paid “when” they are defining their value…but after FA time, in which many times, they will be overpaid on the back end, as skills decline. There are only so many years in a career, but I’m guessing their career annual salary averages out.
As mentioned earlier, Boston now has 2 of those 3 catchers, and we aren’t happy with Tea. So, we went to the WS with Treanor and a Bengi who was fatter and worse than Laird? Why would anybody give up Bucchholz, Bard, Bowden or anything if they can get them for basically nothing?
You have to remember, Holland might turn out great, but one of the most recent memories of Holland for the entire world (except us) is the walkfest in the WS. No wonder his perceived value has dropped for now.
I agree with giving him a real shot this year, because nothing you get in return for him is that much better than he could end up being.
One more thing…nobody is trying to trade for Moreland. He will be nothing more than an add on in a bigger trade.
I miss 1989. I miss 1996. Please make me miss another season in 2008.
by Chaim Witz on Jan 8, 2011 7:44 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I'm too lazy to look up all the details
but I think your assumptions about whether Holland was included in those 2 packages, and what those teams thought about him (uninterested) is complete speculation. Seattle wanted Smoak and KC got 2 good young premium position players. Holland didn’t seem to figure prominently on the front end of either deal (maybe not even in deals last year either, though Evan Grant remained convinced). Like I said I could be wrong, but making assumptions about rumored packages that another team didn’t like based completely on rumors seems suspect at best. As for Holland’s current value, I think TX likely views him exactly like other team’s view him, as a risk, and likely a back roto arm with 2_3 potential. A disappointment to be sure.
On the other hand
Holland has had almost 200 IP in the majors, and counting on him being a front rotation guy with his track record probably is kind of silly. My guess is that you can find guys with his background succeeding, but at this point it is probably more the exception than the rule.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
At the end of last year
he had trouble stringing 5 innings in a start before the shit would hit the fan. It would have to be tough for a manager to have a lot of faith in him not torching the bullpen given his track record.
Hopefully if he gets a rotation spot, he starts the season with guns blazing, because I don’t think he is going to get a lot of rope this year. I suspect it will be like last year was for Chris Davis.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I think Holland is a bit different from Davis
in that while Holland seems about click away from being great. I don’t know if Holland will figure it out, but he has the type of stuff that if he improves on his mental blocks, etc, he can improve rapidly. I think you give a guy like that a bit of leeway. In addition, his peripherals suggest that his performance may actually have been better than the results showed. That should earn you a bit more rope.
Chris Davis is such a horrid comparison, because Davis showed absolutely nothing after his hot 2008. And even that hot 2008 showed a lot of warning signs. I don’t think Davis ever had a chance to succeed in this league- you simply can’t strike out 30% of the time and not walk at an above average rate and have any value.
I think the That Levine criteria aren’t a fixed rule, but rather guidelines from which you decide how long to wait on guys. When a guy shows nothing – no results, bad approach, etc – in 60% of that time frame, you probably discard him. But if he shows something – a good approach, some flashes of great results – you would probably be wise to give him an extension.
Go Rice Owls!
If only Davis were actually ever on a short leash
He’s had somewhere around 300 more at bats over the past two years than he should have had.
Go Rice Owls!
It's tough for me to say
that he is a click away from being great. I’m not even sure if he is a click away from being good.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
my phrasing wasn't really right
I think Holland is the type of player who has a pretty good shot at being great if he can overcome the obstacles that are keeping him from being good or even serviceable.
Go Rice Owls!
I think Nolan and Maddux and gang.
seem to be real big on mental makeup in pitchers. I don’t know if they believe Derek will ever have the mental toughness to be a steely eyed killer, like, say, Cliff.
I know they seemed to view Millwood as soft, and they couldn’t seem to dump him fast enough.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Do you really think
Harden would have gotten his last couple of starts if Holland had shown them something in his month or so of starts?
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
If we're really making inferences based on a month worth of starts
then we’re not a very good at evaluating pitchers.
I think we had a huge lead anyways, and Harden had that one good start and we wanted to get something for that 7.5 million dollars. And Holland was coming back from an injury.
It’s stupid to make inferences to play into your bias.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
by FirebatM3 on Jan 8, 2011 5:11 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I don't think I'm making inferences
based on my biases.
I’m pretty sure that if Holland looked like the pitcher that a lot of folks here seem to think he is, he would have gone into the playoffs as the 4th starter, and they would have made sure he continued to get starts to stay sharp, rather than give them to Harden.
However, he didn’t establish anything, and they decided to take another look at Harden to see if he was worth putting on the post season roster.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I think
the fact that they went to Harden is not an indication of anything, as you seem to think.
It was the Rangers trying to see who can help them in the playoffs. That + investment we made in Harden is why he got another shot. If we were making decisions based on 4 starts, we’re in trouble
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
So,
you don’t think the Rangers were going to judge a pitcher off 4 starts, but they were going to give another pitcher 2 starts to see what he had.
Gotcha.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Maybe that's because
Rich Harden is a one year commitment who had a horrible year and was of no value to this team if he couldn’t throw strikes, like he couldn’t do all year?
This is a stupid argument, there’s a world of difference between 24 year old Derek Holland and 28-29 year old Rich Harden with one year of team control
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
who is talking about Holland here?
and why limit Harden to the last two starts? When the tongue-gate happened, does he look like he had the correct mental makeup? They still sent him back out there afterward.
I don’t think it’s correct to lump people in the “favored” or “disliked” group just based on how we perceive how the organization perceive a player’s mental makeup – that’s no better than making things up. Eventually, if somebody has poor mental makeup, they simply won’t perform. Holland hasn’t performed very much yet, but as of now he is the best-suited candidate for the 5th starter’s spot unless they trade for/sign somebody else. If he doesn’t perform by mid-season, bring in somebody else.
I don't think you can give him a half a season
I agree with Cahill, Holland is going to be on a pretty short leash. If he doesn’t show much improvement in his first 5 starts or so, I bet he’s sent down to AAA and to the back of the line to get another crack at the ML rotation.
I don't really agree with this.
The length of his leash is going to be directly related to the health of Brandon Webb, the continued efficacy of Tommy Hunter, and how ready for a Major League rotation the following pitchers are: Michael Kirkman, Matt Harrison, and Neftali Feliz.
Scott Feldman remains an x-factor in all of this. I believe that he will definitely be given another chance to start. His success affects Holland’s leash as much as any of the other factors do.
True
Mental toughness is the strongest asset in Tommy Hunter’s ledger.
I wish we could fuse those two pitchers together. Hunter’s brain and Holland’s arm.
Go Rice Owls!
Tommy's mental toughness
was of course on display throughout the post-season, especially against the Yankees. I think if we’re making decision based on mental toughness, we should do it for veterans, not 24 year olds who have less than 200 IP
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
by FirebatM3 on Jan 8, 2011 5:21 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I fully agree
I have been hoping for a Hunter trade all offseason. I don’t think there is any real substance to Hunter, other than a good old boy look, a “toughness” reputation, and a whole lot of luck.
I’d much, much rather roll with Holland than Hunter any day.
That said, Hunter does approach the game in a way you’d like to see Holland approach it. And I think that does bias the Rangers judgment of their pitching. Wrongly so, but I think it does bias it.
Go Rice Owls!
this whole trade Holland thing
is starting to remind me of when the Rangers didn’t realize what they had with another young, left-handed starter
sometimes pitching, especially starting pitching, takes a while to come around … sometimes lefties take a bit longer
for an organization that could not get Cliff Lee to sign here after trading for him and going to the WS with him, I think it’d would be really shortsighted to give up early on any hard-throwing, young lefthanded (or righthanded, for that matter) starting pitcher prospects
I agree that Tommy Hunter is completely overrated based on his tough-guy look and good-old boy demeaner … he’s the type of young pitcher that a smart organization moves early – lower upside, results that belie poor peripherals
We know what happens
when Tommy suddenly starts putting up awesome peripherals. He gets rocked in the playoffs.
At that point
peripherals don’t matter. You should know that by now.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
You know what's funny to me is that Holland bailed out Hunter in Game 3 of the ALCS
There’s something not right about Dutch. He shuts down the Yanks in Yankee Stadium in a crucial Game 4 of the ALCS and then farts it up in San Francisco
by oc on Jan 8, 2011 6:31 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
You are exactly right.
That one example demonstrates that there is “something not right about Dutch.”
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Remember how Cliff Lee
was lights out through the ALCS and ALDS, but then stunk against San Francisco? Something’s up with that guy.
But probably has more time to figure it out than Cliff Lee
Thank you for your useless fucking comeback
by oc on Jan 8, 2011 6:43 PM CST up reply actions
When you make a valid argument,
I’ll stop responding with sarcasm. The example you pointed out is just the way baseball goes.
Madison Bumgarner only lasted 4 2/3 with 85 pitches in his sole NLCS start, allowing 3 runs. He got bailed out His next start in the World Series was an 8-inning gem to close it out. He has less major league experience than Holland. Is something not right about him?
Pseudo-psychology annoys me to no end when applied to baseball.
by AsDevilsRun on Jan 8, 2011 6:49 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Especially by lay people drawing conclusions from speculation and hearsay.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
I think you have self esteem issues because you felt the need to add
Esq. to your profile…
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
by Rodney on Jan 8, 2011 7:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Damn you, Rodney.
You read me like a book.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
I have my talents
Even though I am not really a “lay person” anymore. I kinda took part of FP’s resolution a while back.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Don't hate yourself.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
you know what's funny...
…the whole ‘Holland is not right’ thing was just another way of me saying ‘Holland is inconsistent’
it’s sad you had to get all Sgt. Semantics with a throwaway comment, really. i just wanted to point out that Holland bailed out Hunter. but hey… it’s the internet! gotta look smart right! anything that makes you and your Aquaboyfriend look like tough guys right?!
by oc on Jan 9, 2011 3:38 PM CST up reply actions
Cliff Lee got rocked by Baltimore both at home and away.
Something is wrong with that guy.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Holland is sorta similar to CJ in a lot of ways, wouldn't surprise me if he had a similar career arc
Lefties with plus but erratic stuff, TJ surgery at a young age, rapid rise thru the minors with poor results in debuts, control problems but nice K numbers, etc, etc
Unless I missed something huge...
When did Derek Holland have TJ?
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
I think he had TJ before he went to Junior College
He was drafted by the Rangers after TJ surgery and then he went to some JC and pitched well and got a nice sign-and-follow bonus from the Rangers that had drafted him in the 20-something round the year after he had the procedure.
At least I thought I remembered that, could be wrong.
I can't find any mention of it, but that doesn't mean anything.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Well it's about time to find out, trying out a young starter is not a bad use for a fifth starter role, even on a good team
Unless he is completely incompetent, give him until at least the ASB; if he hasn’t turned it around by then, send him to the back of the line.
He's had 200 IP to find out.
Trying to argue that Holland hasn’t had chances doesn’t seem right.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
200 IP broken over 2 years
is hardly a representative sample.
And in that 200 IP, his peripherals have been more than acceptable for a young starter.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
It's not a matter of chances or not
It’s that you have a pitcher who can be potentially pretty good, and is pretty much the only guy in the system that fits this description that is ready to start immediately.
Unless they decide to get another established starting pitcher before spring training starts (which I am fine with), I’d be a lot happier letting Holland have the spot instead of a open tryout where a Harrison or Mathis-wannabe gets a spot on the team.
So, every starting pitcher candidate
has to come up and completely solidify his spot in the rotation, with good success and solid peripherals, within the first year+ of being in the major leagues?
there’s going to be some fish slip through the net with this philosopy
and it’s starting to sound similar to the crowing about how John Danks just was never going to succeed at higher levels … or that Adrian Gonzalez was never going to hit for power
That's great
Considering you are the same guy who thought Julio Borbon would have been a much better player than Marlon Byrd in 2009. Clearly you should be in a front office somewhere; your talents are being wasted here.
"When you play happy, good things will happen"-Elvis Andrus
by pblack on Jan 8, 2011 8:01 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
So glad that didn't happen.
Holland and Beltre gone and Feliz banished to the bullpen for all time without a proven closer around.
So glad that didn’t happen.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Jan 8, 2011 4:15 PM CST via mobile reply actions
That was redundant.
You said the same thing twice.
by Robert L. Bishop on Jan 8, 2011 4:17 PM CST up reply actions
So did you.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Jan 8, 2011 4:21 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
On the Internet??? No way.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
by Aqua on Jan 8, 2011 4:24 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Trust in JD and Co.
We’ve got a good opportunity right now. Garza is much more of a given than Holland. He’s basically right-handed Danks.
Beltre is still a real longshot. He doesn’t walk and the power is still minimal.
This looks like a lot because it’s a lot of names. If this deal could get Danks, Would you do it?
Que sera, sera.
Wow.
Really awful baseball opinionz4u contained herein.
A 27 year old coming off a season with a 4.26 FIP/4.51 xFIP is EXACTLY THE SAME ONLY RIGHT HANDED compared to a 25 year old coming off a 3.70 FIP/4.16 xFIP.
That’s basically the same, isn’t it?
by vfn on Jan 8, 2011 4:46 PM CST up reply actions
I like how you capitalized 'exactly', since I didn't use that word.
Their IPs, ERAs, and WHIPs are very similar(note: not exact) for 3 years running.
Que sera, sera.
Garza is a right-handed Danks who is suffering from a severe case of syphilis
by Telegraph on Jan 8, 2011 4:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Not just syphilis
but neuro syphilis
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Your MLB the Show Matt Garza is not real life Matt Garza
by dolphinpuncher on Jan 8, 2011 4:51 PM CST up reply actions
I just don't get where all this confidence in Garza comes from, especially considering how his first two seasons went.
by dolphinpuncher on Jan 8, 2011 5:02 PM CST up reply actions
He's been pretty consistent for 3 years/600 innings now.
I’m confident he could be a solid rotation guy for a team just removed from an AL title. I don’t expect AS performance, but a lot more reliable than a kid who hasn’t put it together yet.
If we were more pretender than contender, I wouldn’t do the deal.
Que sera, sera.
I think
trading potential for stability is a good way to become the Angels team we’re laughing at right now. Especially since the difference between Garza and Holland won’t be too great right now and might be a huge negative in the future.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Could be. We have differing philosophies on prospects(or at least in regards to a pennant contender).
I’m not confident the difference b/w the two will be minimal this year. Like I said, if we weren’t top tier on the MLB level, I wouldn’t bother with trying this sort of acquisition.
Que sera, sera.
I think if everything points in one direction
like “Holy shit, Matt Garza is a huge FB guy who has gotten lucky with HRs the past year”, while you can’t be sure, you can be pretty damn certain.
What’s more, the difference between a teams above us (let’s say, the Red Sox) and the Rangers and the difference between the Rangers and the teams they’re competing against is not Matt Garza.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Yep
It is foolish to make any moves that sacrifice a big part of this clubs’ future unless you’re getting back a legitimate game changer – a #1 pitcher, an all-round CF, or so forth.
Garza in the rotation instead of Holland is maybe worth 1 – 2 wins all season, and maybe worth half a game in the playoffs. And I think that is being generous.
Go Rice Owls!
stability for potential
was the rationalization for McCarthy for Danks … I agree with you that these are not good trades
If you consider
a 5.52 ERA doing more. Otherwise, Danks did more by not dirtying his form.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
22-23 year old pitchers
the list of sub 24-year old starters that strike out more than 2 batters for every batter walked and hold the league to less than a hit per inning isn’t very long
And if you’re just going to focus on ERA (and not give him the credit for improving on this all important stat in his 2nd season), why not lump in the win totals and go totally old school?
Why aren't you on mobile...?
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
I don't know how to live in this world.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
that would have been a panic move by Nolan Ryan
no doubt
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
Yep.
Glad it didn’t happen. That’s too much for a pitcher like Garza. I’d give that up for Greinke, but not Garza.
"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel
this is almost as bad as
Josey’s “it’s JD’s baby all the way.”
They’re all in discussion about a move like this, and there’s a consensus to move when they do.
by elvis1isking on Jan 8, 2011 10:44 PM CST up reply actions
i'm mind-boggling when people realize the irony in the comment
but fail to realize the sarcasm.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
and to think we'd have Halladay if Holland didn't have that great one start
a couple years ago.
"what I have learned in 11 years in the sports business is that the dumbest guys in the room are always the media guys." - mark cuban
Halladay
it was pretty much confirmed that he would have rejected a deal to Texas
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
are you sure about that?
i don’t remember that part at all.
"what I have learned in 11 years in the sports business is that the dumbest guys in the room are always the media guys." - mark cuban
those were the reports
which made some people wonder why there was so much halladay talk to begin with
i just searched
looked like it was people who got sucked in by a fakeKeithlaw tweet.
"what I have learned in 11 years in the sports business is that the dumbest guys in the room are always the media guys." - mark cuban
Yep, that's what was reported.
"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel
Geez...
I’m so glad Tampa liked the Cubs deal more.
That type of package is for someone like Greinke, not Garza.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
How many years of team control does Garza have left?
Is it like 3 years of cheap for Garza vs the 2 medium-priced Greinke years? Maybe team control makes them closer in trade value than we think
my better is better than your better.
by rangerjake on Jan 8, 2011 4:42 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
When your goal is immediate performance, the medium-priced Greinke years is more important
If you just talk about cost, you might as well roll with Tommy Hunter.
well, Garza isn't "cheap"
he’s cheaper than Greinke for the next year or two, but there is a reason Tampa wanted to trade him now. He’s about to start getting expensive fast.
Go Rice Owls!
Could have been someone in the Cubs org. Could have been an agent. Could be incorrect.
I don’t think it’s clearly coming from Tampa Bay. It’s clearly not coming from the Rangers FO, based on their history. Don’t see why JD would use this non-trade to start leaking info.
Why would anyone with the Cubs have the info on the other Rangers involved in the trade besides maybe Chirinos?
Why would an agent have the info about ALL Ranger players involved (wouldn’t think an agents are given this info until the deal is close to being completed)? But it could definitely be incorrect or inaccurate.
question
Why can I not read the fuck you rangers thread? Is it being deleted? I don’t think I am the only one who is now curious about nolan’s nipples
The snozberries taste like snozberries!!
by Chrom on Jan 8, 2011 4:53 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Was that an Angels fan who posted it?
I missed the thing altogether.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Jan 8, 2011 5:18 PM CST up reply actions
I think so
Didn’t look real well but it may have been the guy who con conceded the division to us
The snozberries taste like snozberries!!
by Chrom on Jan 8, 2011 5:32 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Did yall see Kemba's three pointer in the
UCONN vs UT game?
"Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor."-Capote
Just a note here because im really pissy about it
that was clearly after the light on the shot clock had flashed and it shouldnt have counted
Josey Wales is stupid
Bitter much?
but after watching it I’m not so sure. It was really close though
"Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor."-Capote
Yep. I was there.
That was the best basketball game that I have ever seen in person. Too bad it did not end better, but it was still a damn good game either way.
Superman wears Josh Hamilton pajamas.
Seems like they are Doug Davising the hell out of Derek Holland
"I also have to say that I was pretty obviously wrong about C.J. Wilson. As recently as the All Star Break, I proclaimed the decision to move him the rotation a failure. That was epicfail of a, well, epic nature" - AJM
"My parents actually loved to pimp me too." - LSJ
Please
Doug Davis did much more with the opportunities he was given, and was essentially a league average starter with his time with the Rangers.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
This
this is what I don’t get about Cahill’s argument. If everything shows that Holland was a pretty decent pitcher last year, why does Cahill insist that he was some type of a horrible soul, sucking beast?
Because of a month worth of starts in the middle of July-August? Because of a bad game vs. the D-Rays in the ALDS? Because of his troubles in the playoffs? Because like any other young starter, he had bouts of command troubles? Because everyone else seem to hate Tommy Hunter and this is just lashing out?
I really don’t get it – is it just because you think the peripherals are lying?
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
by FirebatM3 on Jan 8, 2011 5:29 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Because
peripherals don’t tell the whole story. They don’t really say anything at all about IP/start, which some folks find to be important.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Do you honestly think
that efficiency isn’t a stat that can be improved upon?
Especially with a team that’s been upgrading their defense?
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Well let's hope
he improves.
But let’s not pretend I’m out on some island somewhere as the only one who isn’t convinced he is going to be an ace. Given most of the trade rumors, it doesn’t really seem like the Rangers are all that enthralled with his future.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
And if that is the case
we should be thankful for the Cubs, because someone in our front office either over-valued Garza or under-valued our own players
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
I no longer see "ace" either
But I’d be happy with a weak 2/strong 3, which his peripherals seem to support.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
let's hope
As it stands right now, we need a lot of the rotation to step up to a level higher than they have shown.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
And it's peripherals at age 24
to make final declarations of a player’s value, especially one as talented as Holland, because he doesn’t pitch enough innings per start at age 24 is a good way to give up too much value in a trade
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Well, Cahill has a point that peripherals can be misleading
especially if they are accompanied by a red flag, such as an ability to go late in games that leads to the team avoiding using him after, say, 2 trips through the lineup. I am very hesitant to say that Holland should be considered a #2 or #3 based on his performance to date, and to say so plays into Cahill’s grumpy hands.
That said, there is a lot about Holland to make you think that he can both improve on his peripherals and address the other weaker aspects of his game. The full package isn’t perfect, but there is still a lot of value in there. And if you can’t get that level of value back for him, you shouldn’t trade him.
Go Rice Owls!
He's not an ace but neither is Garza so don't know why that's the standard
His xFIP was better than Garza, his ERA was better than Garza, his tERA was better.
The only issue he had is that he had an injury. Otherwise, he was a bery good pitcher last year
And he did absolutely everything you could have wanted him to do in the minors.
Aside from the walking disaster in the WS, he was a pretty damn good postseason pitcher, too.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Yes,
aside from his disasters, he is pretty good.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I said aside from the one disaster.
Don’t make my statement more than it was.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Positively Jar-Jar like
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
by FirebatM3 on Jan 8, 2011 5:43 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You know
people obviously are doubting Holland but I don’t think you’ve advanced one reasonable reason for it.
I can see the Rangers doing it because of injury, mental toughness concerns but what are you basing it on?
I don't think
there is any question the root cause is concerns over mental toughness. I don’t think it has much at all to do with injury.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Ok
Well then I’m fine with the Rangers making that decision but I have no idea what you are seeing that makes you think that. And from what I’ve seen, there’s no way I’d take Garza, who seems like the prototypical headcase
I wouldn't trade that package for
Garza either, but it has as much to do with Beltre, Francisco and whoever else we would have had to trade the Cubs, as it did Holland.
Seems a lot to give up, but I do think it gives some insight into the Rangers valuation of Holland.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Would you trade Holland for Garza straight up?
I would, but like Cahill I don’t like including Fx2 (who is important for this team next year) or Beltre (who is one of only a few high level prospects in the system).
I’m interested in what everyone else would think though
Go Rice Owls!
It's very similar to the Danks/McCarthy trade
which wasn’t necessarily terrible on paper but that’s the type of trade it is.
I would probably do it because Garza is realized potential which is always better
Of course the big difference
int he Danks/McCarthy trade is that, at that time, Danks had zero major league resume. He was traded out of the minors, for a guy that could help them now.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
20 year old in AA?
I’d hate for him to be in that package, then again, I don’t entirely see the fascination with Garza. It seems almost like the pursuit of Eaton, which I also didn’t fully understand.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I so wanna be wrong about him.
I just don’t see it. He never, ever walks and hasn’t really shown much pop.
I think we overrate him because we have no other offensive prospects above A ball.
Que sera, sera.
He's seen as someone who can be a good defensive CF'er in the majors
That has value.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2011 6:17 PM CST up reply actions
Beltre has the potential to be Borbon with a good arm.
And even better offensively.
Beltre is a true five-tool talent, he just hasn’t put it together.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Yeah, I'm just hesitant on holding onto and hoping for potential to be filled.
I was as excited about acquiring him as I was some of our other young pick-ups back then.
I’m disappointed he’s shown no growth whatsoever in plate patience.
Que sera, sera.
And potential is there for so much more
He has speed, and his bat has the chance to have some pop as well
It is like people think he will suck b/c hes never going to have a .400 OBP
They also like to ignore that he is still young for his level…really young for that matter
Josey Wales is stupid
I think he is at a minimum
Borbon, but with more upside due to age.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I think his value might be at it's highest.
I’d take advantage of throwing him in a deal, if we find a GM that thinks he could become something.
Raw talent, like I said above, hope I’m wrong about him.
Que sera, sera.
At his worst, he's a potentially fantastic defensive CF'er.
At his best, he’s a high-average guy with a little pop and the ability to steal bases.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
This is interesting.
Considering Holland’s mental toughness was something that was lauded for when he was in the minors.
Curious
but did you look at DD’s career track before posting this, or are you working off memory?
Davis, at age 24, was given 13 starts and about 100 innings, and he was less than otherworldly, allowing10 hits/9 and walking as many as he struck out. At age 25, he was given 30 starts and managed a Hunter-esque nice ERA that hid some pretty awful peripheral stats.
If you’re looking at wins and ERA, I guess Davis did more. But keeping the Davis’s and Hunter’s of the world b/c the team wins when they pitch and their relievers retire all the inherited baserunners (or some other factor) is a way to end up like we did in the middle aughts … with no impact, homegrown pitching
x
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
Gracious.
Thank goodness this didn’t go through.
I’m not a big Holland fan, but this is still waaaaaay to much for Garza.
Our safeties
are getting owned. Malcolm Jenkins hurt us bad
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
And somewhere Longhorn is crying
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Yeah
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Yeah
we moved a lot as a kid
Austin-Baton Rouge-South Dakota-Minnesota
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
and I thought
it was well-established that I was a Saints fan last year
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Falcons fan?
or just general hatefulness of the Katrina fascination that develops whenever the Saints play a Nationally televised game?
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Sean Payton is the biggest cocksucker in the game
arrogant fuck.
And a bunch of johnny come lately’s acting like they know about football come together to make up one of the worst fandoms in sports
(Cowboys fan)
I think
that’s understandable if you look at a fanbase from another city. It’s the same thing with the Cowboys and how every jackass in Northern LA is inevitably a boys fan. I don;t think you can evaluate a fandom unless you live in their city
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
I actually
cancelled my consulting contract with a company, because they wanted me to travel to NO too much. NO, even on expense account, doesn’t do a whole lot for me.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Really?
I love the city as a vacation spot. I hate it as a sports fan.
It’s like a person new to sports trying to talk sports with you. It’s annoying
Maybe it's because
I’ve gone there so many times, now it just strikes me as a dirty, dirty city. I don’t drink enough anymore to like NO.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Curmudgeon
Oh wait, that’s JB.
:p
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
That defense
is beating Jon Stinchcomb like a drum, which is expected because everyone beat him like a drum this year.
Thank god they drafted Charles Brown last year
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
So, is Guyer their CF'er of the near future?
zMLE: 410 PA, .284/.327/.462 (.323 BABIP), .344 wOBA
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Sigh, and reading further on this list, there is Chirinos
zMLE: 318 PA, .271/.347/.451 (.289 BABIP), .353 wOBA
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Ugh
Julius Jones is a failure machine and should be shot
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
If the steroids are delivered by a bullet, sure
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
don't worry
Steven Jackson still might develop those durability issues.
Section 239, Row 1, Seats 1&2
It was a call that needed to be made
the game was lost if they punted anyways, the safety was getting ebat all day
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
I dunno
I think they could come back from 14 points down in the 3rd…Seattle was 7-9 in an awful division for a reason. They will not come back from 21, most likely.
If this is true....
There is no way i believe Tampa turns our deal down
Therefore, i elect to believe this is completely false, or missing really important details like Hellickson coming to Texas…..
Also, if this is true…im joining Josey in saying that JD is a fucking idiot
Josey Wales is stupid
JD is not a fucking idiot.
The new dynamic in the Ranger FO that began on that glorious February morning in 2008 has helped JD immensely.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"If the Cliff Lee Contract was really keeping me from doing other things, I had no fucking business whatsoever trying to sign him in the first place."
*head explodes*
"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel
JD is just waiting on him to be "seasoned" *
*with Oyster Sauce.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
OT: Arizona shooters youtube
a friend found this. I think it’s legit…and fucking creepy.
"There's really no way of knowing... Sometimes when I see their big eyes looking up from my lap I think, that's definitely a homeless guy in a fur coat." Betty White on SNL
Goldstein (I think) linked this earlier.
Among the assorted craziness:
I had favorite books: Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver’s Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.
I bet he just wanted to seem diverse and cultured.
He probably read a third of them, max.
Que sera, sera.
I think he's pointing out that Mein Kampf is in the list.
Along with The Communist Manifesto (probably the first time those two have been listed together, especially considering Mein Kampf spends about 90% of its time trashing Communism).
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Mind control, implied rascism/anti-Hipanic leanings, anti-government...yeah, he fits the mold perfectly
And my soul is a little blacker for watching that.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
This confirms
what has become increasingly apparent for a while now: Holland’s value is nowhere near where most of the passionate fans perceive it to be. The Rangers have tried using him as a headliner in every potential big deal this year and have turned up no positive PINGS from the other end. We may be overlooking the fact that he’s shown a lack of progress by pointing at his stuff, minor league success and great nickname — but many talent evaluators are legitimately concerned about his short and long-term growth.
"By MLB.TV, we can see J. Hamilton's homer, M. Young's clutch, and N. Feliz's explosive. All about Rangers things can be our interest"
--South Korean Rangers fan
"I don't have to watch awful movies to see hot women. " ---Robbie Griffin
The only trade that we know for sure the Rangers tried to use Holland as a "headliner" is Seattle.
Assuming, of course, that you don’t believe this report. I think it’s far from proven true.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
And, in that case, what we learned is that Montero would've been more highly regarded than Holland.
I don’t think that’s too crazy of an idea given both of their ceilings.
Godspeed Mike Olt.
Smoak, too.
But that’s hardly outrageous, either.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
I got onto the Smoak bandwagon too late to say that I was "never sold on him" or anything.
But I have a hard time believing he’s going to explode and make us feel stupid for trading him.
Like, say … Adrian Gonzalez.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Exactly
He doesnt have that super high ceiling that makes you scared at times
but ill also be surprised if he isnt at least a good MLB player
Josey Wales is stupid
Not so sure about that...
Might be wrong but I don’t remember Gonzalez ever having a higher ceiling than Smoak…yes he was the number 1 pick but it was widely regarded as a weak class.
I would argue Smoak has been touted more than Gonzalez was.
by slimshadty12 on Jan 9, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
From what I've been told
by people with connections in the organization, he was part of most of the Greinke proposals, too.
"By MLB.TV, we can see J. Hamilton's homer, M. Young's clutch, and N. Feliz's explosive. All about Rangers things can be our interest"
--South Korean Rangers fan
"I don't have to watch awful movies to see hot women. " ---Robbie Griffin
"Part" != "Headliner."
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
Fair enough
but how many pieces more valuable than Holland would you have felt comfortable with including in a deal for Greinke? Let’s assume Perez is more valuable than Holland. Those two are already a hefty package on their own. Beyond that, you start dipping to ML pieces, and I don’t believe the organization was prepared to do that.
"By MLB.TV, we can see J. Hamilton's homer, M. Young's clutch, and N. Feliz's explosive. All about Rangers things can be our interest"
--South Korean Rangers fan
"I don't have to watch awful movies to see hot women. " ---Robbie Griffin
Of course, this assumes the rumored package is correct.
Gammons has deleted it from his twitter and everyone else is citing Gammons.
Gammon said it on a MLB.com article
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Here ya' go:
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
assumptions
just b/c a guy is being dangled as part of a trade package does not mean he’s not valuable, and just b/c those trades were not consumated does not mean the whole league does not value said player … not to mention that this is mostly just assumptions from folks on the outside looking in
There’s so much anti Holland sentiment around here, I was surprised when I went back and looked at the numbers he put up this year. He kept his SO/BB ratio the same and dropped his hit rate below a hit per inning. He had his ups and downs, for sure, in the regular season as well as the playoffs.
But give me a 23-year—old pitcher with 1+ years of experience who flashes plus stuff and seems to be getting better as he gets older every day of the week … and twice on Sundays
theres far more Holland blind love than anti Holland sentiment around here
by bigsteve on Jan 9, 2011 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not so sure those tables actually haven't turned.
A year ago you’d prolly be correct, but now…
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy.
by LSJ on Jan 9, 2011 1:05 PM CST up reply actions
Well anytime anything remotely negative gets brought up about Holland it sure seems a ton of people jump to his defense
and IMO the people who say Holland will likely be better than Garza in 2011 are showing their blind love for Holland instead of looking at the reality of the situation.
Holland has plenty of MLB experience under his belt and needs to start putting these peripherals into reality pretty quick. he likely will be arb eligible next winter so he will start getting expensive and if he doesn’t start producing actual results then its possible he could be shown the door in the next couple years.
Well I haven't seen anyone say Holland will be better than Garza this year, I don't think
Just that there’s a pretty decent chance he could give us similar production to what Garza would, while also being cheaper and more controllable. Garza isn’t that good a pitcher that it would be that hard for Holland to do that.
I’d definitely agree he needs to put together a productive season or he risks seeing his career fall behind, but I also think he might’ve taken the first step toward that last year. Small sample size warnings and all, but what he did in the majors when he was healthy in 2010 was quite good both results an peripheral wise. It’s true he’s heading into the make or break phase of his career in Texas, but I don’t think the roadsigns are particularly foreboding going into it.
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy.
by LSJ on Jan 9, 2011 1:38 PM CST up reply actions
Ive seen plenty of people say its likely Holland is as good or better than Garza in 2011
I fully see that he has a chance but to say its likely blows my mind.
and Holland last year was a starting pitcher who struggled to go 5 innings a lot of the time. he gets rattled at the drop of a hat it seems and is not someone I would particularly trust right now.
Trust me I want nothing more than for Holland to break out in a huge way in 2011and I will hope for it but to expect it or to say its likely hes going to match a guy who has 592 innings of sub 4 ERA pitching the last 3 years is a pretty big leap of faith IMO
If he continues to put up the K/BB numbers he's shown he's capable of along with a managable home run rate, I feel pretty good about his chances.
I think the HR rate is the key, and he seemed to have progressed some in that area last year. I don’t think he’s ever going to be the model of consistency on the mound – he’ll have some meltdowns and people will call him a headcase, but I think if he keeps the HR rate in check the overall picture of his value will be just fine.
Hell, for a guy who “struggled to get through 5 innings” so often, he put up 0.8 WAR in 57 innings to Tommy Hunter’s 0.7 WAR in 128 innings last year. And that’s what everybody loves about Tommy Hunter is his consistency and ability to churn out 6 innings, right?
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy.
by LSJ on Jan 9, 2011 1:59 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly why I don't trust the WAR stat
There is absolutely no way you can convince me Holland was more valuable than Hunter was last year. None.
Holland needs to put all these supportive stats into fruition and start making them produce
Every week I see something like that on here about WAR,
it makes me question the validity of that stat.
Que sera, sera.
I think people have fallen in love with it, especially with Hamilton being in the MVP race this year
and it, like every other stat, has its uses but there are instances, like this, where it simply is off. I believe Fangraphs uses FIP as their basis for pitchers WAR which is flawed since FIP doesn’t tell you what actually happened in regards to run prevention. That, to me, is what makes a pitcher so valuable is preventing the other team from scoring. Whether that means inducing a inning ending double play or striking out back to back guys. In one instance FIP loves you while the other considers you lucky.
FIP is about sustainiblity.
That’s why striking out back-to-back guys is more valuable to it. You get a double play to get out of a situation, that’s fantastic. It’s dependent on the defense to some extent, but it’s fine. I would just rather have the guy that can strike out two guys to get out of it, since it’s more likely to be an out than a groundball is.
I’ll admit FIP is used incorrectly pretty often, though.
It's fWAR.
It won’t necessarily match production. It’s more useful for projections.
By rWAR, Hunter won 2.4 to 0.6.
Well,
especially for pitchers, WAR has absolutely nothing to do with results. The only thing it really tracks is BB, Ks, and HRs.
If you believe that pitchers can’t impact things like LD rates, or FB rates, or can’t pitch better situationally than other pitchers, to get Ks with runners on, for instance, than pitching WAR is for you.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
I don't really trust it with non-pitchers either.
Considering BR has Choo 2nd and Hamilton 6th last year. Choo is a fine, underrated player, but no.
Que sera, sera.
It has to do with how much the formula values a bunch of innings of mediocre pitching and better pitching over fewer innings, I guess.
Fangraphs (what I used above) basically says they’re equal. Statcorner actually has Hunter at -0.1 and Holland at 0.7. BR WAR has Hunter at 2.4 and Holland at 0.6.
I’m not sure why all three formulas seem to agree Holland was around 0.6-0.8 WAR and differ so drastically on Hunter, but the point is at least two of them would take Holland over Hunter based on Holland’s showing much superior abilities even in a smaller sample size. I think that says something, despite the fact that I would agree Hunter having double the innings should probably make him a tad more valuable.
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy.
by LSJ on Jan 9, 2011 2:28 PM CST up reply actions
BR uses runs allowed
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/6405
FG uses FIP:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/why-our-pitcher-war-uses-fip-part-two/
That seems to be it in a nutshell.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
Holland performed in line with his peripherals last year.
That’s why the agree on him.
Hunter vastly outperformed them. That’s why the two that are dependent on peripherals don’t like him.
plenty of experience
while I’d say that 200 innings is no short course on the Major Leagues, it hardly qualifies as plenty of experience, especially considering last year was a bit back and forth after his knee tweak in ST while doing pitching fielding drills
He pitched last year as a 23-year old, and in all likelihood, was probably rushed to the majors the year before b/c our pantry was so bare.
But I will agree that he has had his time and he needs to answer the bell if given a rotation spot out of ST. Given the improvements to the team D, I’d say what he really needs to do is along the lines of what CJ did last year, i.e. start trusting his stuff and throwing his fastball low in the zone to induce some ground balls.
failed trade assumptions
but there’s been a meme developing, pushed forward more so by some than all perhaps, that b/c the Rangers didn’t complete one or two trades and b/c Holland was the rumored key piece in one or both of the deals that he’s fallen out of favor with the league and is untrusted as a rotation pitcher by the Rangers
I'm wondering if the Rangers were thinking Garza would become a much better pitcher with the cutter, because...
according to fangraphs, only James Shields throws a cutter on the Rays pitching staff.
It’s a steep package, but I wonder if the Rangers thought they could take Garza to a new level.
Godspeed Mike Olt.
Hmm, this is as good of rationale as any
And we already know Nolan likes him.
"I support you, Wash; I’ve always supported you," Young said
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"Mr. Ryan, I don't throw a cutter."
“You do now, Senor Garza. You do now.”
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
yea, looks like the Rangers really like Garza
plus they would of been able to keep Moscoso, right?
"If I have to get cute, it's going to get ugly." - Nibbler
No
Not unless they deal had been made before they had DFA’d him.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2011 8:15 PM CST up reply actions
I have to think Holland's value is being hurt first most by
his injury history, second by that WS performance, and third by production so far (Good, but in spurts).
I agree with Conjunction, the organization and MLB seem to have downgraded his value a good amount.
by FormerLSBUser on Jan 8, 2011 9:06 PM CST reply actions
He's not seen
as an especially intelligent individual.
"By MLB.TV, we can see J. Hamilton's homer, M. Young's clutch, and N. Feliz's explosive. All about Rangers things can be our interest"
--South Korean Rangers fan
"I don't have to watch awful movies to see hot women. " ---Robbie Griffin
Hey, tball.
You got any good book recommendations on John Lennon?
2010 Texas Rangers: Going where no Rangers team has ever gone
I'm inclined to say fuck every decibel of it
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
Did you call the hypothetical hardware store and buy a theoretical chain saw?
I am having a bladt tonight at The Pearl in Dallas
Great Texas blues and cold beer.
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 8, 2011 10:27 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Why?
Adam/ Cahill – couldn’t the fact that holland’s name keeps getting found in rumors be that other teams are ASKING for him? I don’t buy the whole IP per start argument. He was coming off injury and the team was in a pennant race. It wasn’t offing around. His appearances vs Tampa can be distilled into this – Longoria owns him. Look at his Ks per start. Look at his stuff. Was I theory one watching game 4 of the ALCS? Let’s let the guy pitch in the rotation for, I don’t know, 8 weeks in a row before judge him. This is the same kind of short sighted impatience that led to us RARELY developing a home grown ace. Let’s check back on June 1 and see where we are.
Jack Daddy
I actually have decent grammer
Just a pesky iPad keyboard. I just get frustrated by whatbi perceive to be impatience with Holland. No biggie. How about this – I’ll guarantee that his season this year is better than the season that Garza just had.
Jack Daddy
...is my new come-on line, fwiw.
The 40 trumps all!
"WHY IS LIAM POPPINS STICKING. IT'S AN ABSURDLY BAD NICKNAME"
-LiamP(oppins)
i cannot stop laughong at this
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 9, 2011 3:30 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
So, your theory
is, the other team asks for Holland, we agree to throw him in, and the deal still doesn’t get done?
Personally I think it is significantly more likely that the Rangers and other teams don’t have the same opinion of Holland as the fanboys on this board. Most fans overrate their own prospects.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Just saying the fact
That the cubs liked archer better doesn’t mean they didn’t like holland. And do we have proof Ms didn’t want Holland? Even then, it’s well known that they were targeting an impact bat as the centerpiece and they had narrowed to 4 or so candidates. The jays had targeted Holland. My point is, I don’t think (or would bet that they aren’t) the Rangers are actively out there trying to sell “high” on Holland hoping to u load him because they’ve exuded he stinks or is merely avg. If anything, I think his playoff appearance where his velocity was back to 95-96 has them feeling just as high as they were initially. I dont know how much more of a translation from propect potential to realized results you can then what you saw in Game 4 in NYY. Right?
Jack Daddy
Didn't game 2 of the WS
follow game 4 against NYY? I wouldn’t argue that Holland can’t throw a good inning. I don’t think he has ever really shown he can consistently string 6-7 good innings together.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
And Game 1 and Game 4 of the WS followed the ALDS, right?
so you’re not willing to give a 23-year old a break, on a short sample wild streak vs 4 innings of shut down relief to replace and obviously overmatched Tommy Hunter, but Lee gets a pass on 2 less than quality starts in the WS?
And there are not a lot of 23-year-old left-handed pitchers who can reach the mid 90’s with consistency who have show much consistency in stringing together 7 inning starts.
Now the list of 24 year olds who have built upon early career experience to get more consistency in their games is probably a bit longer, but …
I'm not willing
to judge 4 innings in game 4 in isolation. His entire playoff performance was pretty mediocre. However, some folks want to isolate 4 innings and pretend like they mean something.
I’m OK with Holland being in the rotation next year. I’m also OK if they yank his ass out of the rotation in May. Some folks think he should be given a longer leash, but I doubt he gets it. He is most likely going to have to earn his innings, especially if the Rangers pick up another FA pitcher.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Young pitchers
Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. And sometimes you have to hope that they build on the good stuff and learn from the bad. That’s what development is about. And for the most part, if you this org is going to get good starting pitching, it’s likely going to be through development, so there you are…
I’m definitely not saying he should be given the keys to the mound. But with young starters, sometimes you have to bite the bullet and give the a half season worth of starts to see if they can pull it all together.
I don’t know if Holland will handle the challenge and pick his game up. But I’d rather see them try that then trade him w/o knowing for some pile of mediocrity like Adam Eaton.
And if you look inside his numbers, you can find some reason for hope that he works out. (but I guess by the same token, you can look at the numbers and decide he’s never proven to be consistent and therefore can’t be trusted.)
If we werent coming off a WS appearance and trying to take that next step to actually win the WS this year
Then giving Holland, or any young pitcher like him, 15-20 starts wouldn’t be a problem because you are building for the future.
But in 2011 I don’t think we can let Holland hang around and hope he figures it out if he is being inconsistent.
Anyone who thinks he will get
a half seasons worth of starts, regardless of outcome, is likely to be disappointed. At least half his starts better burn innings and not give up too many runs, and I doubt his walk, K, and HR rates will save him if he can’t burn innings effectively. If he can’t do burn innings, I suspect he will be introduced to Round Rock or Frisco living well before the All Star game.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Adam Eaton never pitched 200 IPs or had an ERA under 4.00.
Plus, he didn’t seem to really care. Garza is competitive and gives you innings and sub 4.00 ERAs.
Que sera, sera.
right there with you
Jack Daddy
He’ll be pitching at 24 this season and barely has a year and a half in the majors
Give him 10-15 starts to see how he looks, and then decide what to do with him
Even the pitching god CLee had his troubles early in his career – sometimes (a lot of times) it takes lefties a bit longer to get complete control of their stuff
.
The 40 trumps all!
"WHY IS LIAM POPPINS STICKING. IT'S AN ABSURDLY BAD NICKNAME"
-LiamP(oppins)
by thedirkatron on Jan 9, 2011 2:29 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Nah
I think that eventually Holland may be a productive pitcher. Of course eventually may be after 6 years of control are up, or after he is DFAed and plays in Japan, like Colby.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
Of course
eventually could also be next year. I haven’t completely written him off.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
so you agree with him
B/c that sounds a lot like the qualified statements that Wales makes about Borbon … no problem with him as long as he gets a lot better
That doesn't work since it could just as easily be
Cahill/Borbon :: Cahill/Holland
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Actually
I think Holland has a much better shot of being a plus player than Borbon.
I just disagree with the morons who think that somehow the Rangers have to guarantee that Derek Holland needs to be given 200 IP in the rotation this year to figure stuff out. That just borders on mental retardation.
"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington
stupid Chicago media
sorry if it was posted elsewhere already
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
Apparently Gary Hobson wasn't able to warn them in time to prevent the misprint
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy.
by LSJ on Jan 9, 2011 8:49 AM CST up reply actions
That's Jack Benny
/Mike E
"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel
Not that this predicts anything...
Roy Halladay after first 231 innings of career: 5.58 FIP
Derek Holland after first 195 innings of career: 4.78 FIP
….but you get my point.
Yeah why not...
Who did we do that to Dominguez?
by slimshadty12 on Jan 11, 2011 1:50 PM CST up reply actions
A good project for Robbie
I bet that you could take 15 pitches that Holland has thrown in his career and assume they were turned into outs and you would have an era that was significantly different. My point is, I don’t recall many outings where he just looked overmatched and I recall several where he was just pitch away from getting out of there unscathed (the SD start comes to mind, but even then he struck out something like 7). I do recall being 1 strike away from a 1 hitter, pitching a 3 hitter vs a 95 win team that led league in scoring, pitching the game that clinched the division, pitching 4+ innings of 1 hit ball in a huge ALCS game in Yankee stadium. In his bad start vs Tampa and his alda appearance vs them, it was more a matter of longoria doing all the damage. I’m not suggesting that he’s gotten the job done and is a cy young candidate. Because that’s not true. But I am saying he’s done more than people make it seem and to suggest he doesn’t have a great chance to be an impact pitcher or that he has been this major disappointment is just flat untrue.
Jack Daddy
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