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Why 2012 should be Josh Hamilton's last season with Texas

Josh Hamilton is among the best players to ever put on a Ranger uniform.  Acquiring him from the Cincinnati Reds, in exchange for Edinson Volquez and Danny Ray Herrera, is one of the best moves Jon Daniels has made as the Rangers' g.m.  

Hamilton's 2010 MVP season was probably the greatest season in Ranger history by a player not named Alex Rodriguez.  He was instrumental in the Rangers having a surprising level of success in 2008, and after a poor 2009 campaign, has been a huge part in the Rangers getting to the World Series in 2010 and 2011.

And he's also someone who should be wearing a different uniform after the 2012 season.

Star-divide

First things first...let's take a look at Hamilton's performance in the majors:

 

Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
1999 18 TBD-min Rk,A- 72 327 308 56 96 23 4 10 55 18 4 14 57 .312 .340 .510 .850 157 2 1 1 3 0
2000 19 TBD-min A 96 423 391 62 118 23 3 13 61 14 6 27 71 .302 .348 .476 .823 186 5 2 0 3 3
2001 20 TBD-min AA,A 27 108 100 8 20 6 0 1 6 2 0 7 25 .200 .250 .290 .540 29 1 0 0 1 2
2002 21 TBD-min A+ 56 235 211 32 64 14 1 9 44 10 1 20 46 .303 .359 .507 .866 107 4 0 1 3 3
2006 25 TBD-min A- 15 55 50 7 13 3 1 0 5 0 1 5 11 .260 .327 .360 .687 18 0 0 0 0 0
2007 26 CIN-min AAA 11 45 40 9 14 1 0 4 8 3 0 5 9 .350 .422 .675 1.097 27 0 0 0 0 0
2007 26 CIN NL 90 337 298 52 87 17 2 19 47 3 3 33 65 .292 .368 .554 .922 131 165 6 4 0 2 4
2008 27 TEX AL 156 704 624 98 190 35 5 32 130 9 1 64 126 .304 .371 .530 .901 134 331 8 7 0 9 9
2009 28 TEX-min AAA,AA 8 37 32 4 6 2 1 0 1 2 0 5 8 .188 .297 .313 .610 10 0 0 0 0 1
2009 28 TEX AL 89 365 336 43 90 19 2 10 54 8 3 24 79 .268 .315 .426 .741 90 143 5 1 0 4 2
2010 29 TEX AL 133 571 518 95 186 40 3 32 100 8 1 43 95 .359 .411 .633 1.044 170 328 11 5 1 4 5
2011 30 TEX-min AAA,AA 5 21 18 5 4 1 0 2 6 0 0 3 5 .222 .333 .611 .944 11 0 0 0 0 1
2011 30 TEX AL 121 538 487 80 145 31 5 25 94 8 1 39 93 .298 .346 .536 .882 128 261 8 2 0 10 13
5 Seasons 589 2515 2263 368 698 142 17 118 425 36 9 203 458 .308 .366 .543 .909 134 1228 38 19 1 29 33
162 Game Avg. 162 692 622 101 192 39 5 32 117 10 2 56 126 .308 .366 .543 .909 134 338 10 5 0 8 9
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 11/26/2011.

Other than his 2009 season, a terrific player, just going off the raw numbers.

What about WAR?  The table below shows Hamilton's fWAR and bWAR since 2007:

 

Season fWAR bWAR
2007 2.6 2.7
2008 4.1 5.4
2009 1.4 1.5
2010 8.5 7.0
2011 4.2 3.6

Hamilton's all over the map here.  He was first in the A.L. among position players in fWAR in 2010, third in bWAR.  He was also fourth in bWAR in 2008.  2009 was a lost year for him, so we can ignore that.

In 2011, however, Hamilton was just 25th in the A.L. in fWAR, 29th in the A.L. in bWAR.  Even in 2008, Hamilton was just 17th in the A.L. in fWAR.  

Don't like WAR?  Think the defensive numbers are too variable?  That's fine...we can use VORP instead.  Hamilton was 19th in the A.L. in VORP in 2011, 8th in 2008.  And if we use WARP (BP's version of WAR) instead of VORP, Hamilton checks in at 21st in the A.L. in 2008, 16th in 2011.

So no surprise there...Hamilton was a transcendent superstar in 2010, was terrible in 2009, and was a terrific player in 2008 and 2011, but probably not really an elite, superstar-level player in either of those two years.  FanGraphs' value calculations have Hamilton as being worth $34.2 million in 2010, $18.9 million in 2011, and $18.6 million in 2008.

I think it is reasonable to believe that Hamilton is likely looking at getting a Jayson Werth-type contract after 2012 from someone.  Hamilton will be entering his age 32 season in 2013, the first year of his new deal.  Werth was entering his age 32 season in 2012, the first year of his new deal.  

Werth got a 7 year, $126 million contract from the Nationals that's 18 million per year over the life of the deal for Werth's age 32-38 seasons.  Hamilton is considered to be better than Werth, definitively has more fan appeal and cachet than Werth, and FanGraphs said that even in his two good but not-MVP-good seasons, he was worth at least $18 million per year.  So give Hamilton $18 million for 6-7 years, lock him up long-term, let him spend much of the next decade mashing in the middle of the Rangers' lineup and retire a Ranger, and everyone is happy, right?

Sure...so long as Hamilton keeps performing like he did in 2008 and 2011.  Is that a realistic assumption, though?

Some think it is.  Some view Hamilton as someone who is incredibly talented, who has fought through adversity, who is the type of five tool player who should be expected to age well, assuming he stays healthy.

I disagree.

I asked Dan Szymborski of ESPN and BTF if he could run the ZiPS projections for Hamilton going forward, which Dan graciously agreed to do.  Dan ran Hamilton's figures as both a left fielder and a center fielder.  I'm using Hamilton's projections as a left fielder below, both because the numbers are pretty close either way, and because I think Hamilton will be playing left field if he were to stay with Texas:

 

Year BA OBP SLG Games AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K OPS+ DR WAR $/WAR Value
2012 .289 .342 .497 126 499 70 144 29 3 23 87 41 99 117 7 3.7 4.7 17.6
2013 .282 .337 .499 120 475 65 134 29 4 22 81 40 93 116 6 3.5 4.9 17.1
2014 .279 .333 .477 117 463 61 129 27 4 19 76 38 86 109 6 2.9 5.1 15.0
2015 .276 .330 .466 112 446 58 123 25 3 18 71 36 80 106 5 2.6 5.3 13.7
2016 .273 .324 .450 103 411 51 112 22 3 15 63 31 69 100 5 2.1 5.5 11.6
2017 .268 .315 .430 89 358 42 96 18 2 12 51 24 56 93 4 1.4 5.7 8.1
2018 .260 .299 .403 67 273 30 71 13 1 8 37 16 39 82 3 0.7 5.9 4.3
2019 .250 .288 .382 37 152 15 38 6 1 4 19 8 20 74 1 0.3 6.2 1.6

That give anyone else pause?  When I was thinking about this, before getting the numbers from Dan, my thinking was that I'd offer Hamilton a 3 year, $51 million extension this offseason (since he's under contract for 2012 already, that would take him through 2015).  If he took it, fine.  If not, I'd let him play 2012 and explore his options in free agency.

Dan's numbers seem to suggest that even that 3 year, $51 million extension is overly generous.

I have no doubt that the ZiPS projection is going to elicit hostile reactions from people who think this is too negative.  Only 23 homers next season?  That's absurd, right?  And not hitting .300 again in his career, when he hit .359 in 2010?  Get your nose out of the statsheet and watch the games, geek!

Except that sort of performance isn't really out of line with what he's done during his career.  Hamilton had only 25 home runs last season, and has never hit more than 32 in a season.  ZiPS sees Hamilton's home run total dropping by just two between in 2011 and 2012, in basically the same number of at bats.

Moreover, Hamilton's .359 batting average in 2010 looks like one of the more extreme outlier seasons you will ever see from a player.  Hamilton's batting averages in his other seasons in the majors have been .292, .304, .268, and .298.  The .359 average was 55 points above what he's ever done in any other season, 51 points above his .308 career average.

The driver for that .359 average, it turns out, was a .390 BABIP in 2010.  Hamilton's career BABIP is .338, and his career high BABIP other than in 2010 is the .333 BABIP in 2008.

What makes that .390 BABIP even more baffling is that Hamilton's line drive rate has been consistent throughout his career from 2007 through 2011, his line drive rate has only varied from a career high of 22% (in 2010) to a career low of 21% (in 2011).  If you use the conventional "add .120 to the line drive rate" method for determining an expected BABIP, then you'd expect a .340 BABIP from Hamilton in 2010, rather than a .390 BABIP.

The fact that the 2010 BABIP is so high above expectations doesn't make Hamilton's 2010 season less valuable, but it does drive home the point that 2010 was an extreme outlier, the exception, not something we should reasonably expect Hamilton to duplicate going forward.  

And it also makes ZiPS projected batting averages for Hamilton going forward seem very reasonable.

Dan notes that the biggest problem ZiPS has with Hamilton (and the biggest red flag that I think any front office would have vis-a-vis Hamilton)   is the amount of time he's missed because of injuries.

Look at Hamilton's games played by season, since 2007:  90, 156, 89, 133, 121.  Hamilton spent time on the d.l. in 2007 with gastroenteritis and with a sprained wrist.  He essentially missed half of 2009 with a bruised rib cage and with an abdominal strain.  Hamilton missed the end of the 2010 season with another bruised rib cage.  He missed time early in 2011 with a broken shoulder, and was hampered late in the season and in the playoffs because of a sports hernia.

Bob Sturm pointed out back in 2005, in reference to the Rangers' curious (and ultimately foolish) decision to put Greg Colbrunn on the 40 man roster and count on him as a bench bat, that the problem with counting on injury-prone players is that they tend to get injured.  Players also tend to get injured more often, not less often, as they age.  My guess is that years of substance abuse would tend to make that tendency to get injured as you age more severe, rather than less severe.  There is really no reason to expect Hamilton to give you more than 120 games per season going forward.

Injury history aside, there's other concerns about Hamilton as he ages.  One of the things that I find worrisome about counting on Hamilton going forward is that he seems to come across as a bit of a headcase, needing things to be just so for him to be able to perform.  

There's the day game problem, of course, which has been covered at length, and which has featured Hamilton blaming his inability to hit in the day time on his blue eyes.  And Hamilton has hit poorly in the day, with a career .246/.316/.415 day line, including a .220/.302/.317 line in 2011.  But his inability to hit in the day seems to be less about blue eyes and more about Hamilton, it seems.

We also have the comments about Hamilton being moved from the #4 spot in the lineup to the #3 spot, supposedly because Hamilton's uncomfortable hitting fourth, and prefers hitting third so that he knows he'll get an at bat in the first inning.  There was also Craig Gentry moving to left field so that Hamilton could play center against Tampa Bay at one point in the ALDS, supposedly because Ron Washington didn't want to mess with Hamilton's "mental state" after having told him he'd play center in the playoffs.  Little things, but taken all together, it makes me wonder if Hamilton isn't the ballplayer equivalent of a Ferrari...great when everything's right, but tempermental, and spending way too much time in the shop.

The other thing that really worries me about what Hamilton is going to do going forward is seeing how his plate discipline has deteriorated over the past several years.  Here is Hamilton's swing percentage, swing percentage on pitches outside of the zone, percentage of pitches thrown to him in the strike zone and unintentional walk rate as a major leaguer:

 

Year Swing % O-Swing % Zone % BB Rate (exc. IBB)
2007 51.2% 26.9% 48.8% 8.6%
2008 55.5% 34.7% 45.3% 7.8%
2009 57.6% 36.0% 43.6% 6.0%
2010 55.3% 37.3% 41.3% 6.6%
2011 56.9% 40.8% 39.6% 4.8%

The trend is unmistakable...Hamilton has, as his career has progressed, swung at more pitches, and swung at more pitches outside of the strike zone.  As a result, pitchers are throwing him fewer and fewer strikes, but despite seeing fewer strikes, his unintentional walk rate is dropping precipitously.

Hamilton had 39 walks last season, which makes the .298/.346 spread between his average and OBP look somewhat respectable.  But 13 of those walks were intentional...Hamilton drew a whopping 26 unintentional walks in 538 plate appearances in 2011.

Let's put the above numbers in perspective...Hamilton's 40.8% swing percentage on pitches outside of the strike zone was the 10th highest in MLB last year.  Ahead of him were Vladimir Guerrero (47.4%), Alfonso Soriano (45.6%), Miguel Olivo, Adam Jones, Alex Gonzalez, Mark Trumbo, Robinson Cano, Jeff Francoeur, and Delmon Young.  The only other qualifying major leaguer above 38% was Yuniesky Betancourt, at 40.4%.  

That's not the sort of company you want to be keeping, at least in 2011, if you are looking for elite offensive production.

Hamilton's 39.6% of pitches that he saw that were in the strike zone was 6th lowest in the majors, trailing Prince Fielder, Ryan Howard, Mike Stanton, Freddie Freeman, and Guerrero, with Mark Teixeira, Aubrey Huff, and Adrian Gonzalez also below 40%.  Now, that's a much more impressive grouping of talent.

Here's the problem with this grouping, though...other than Guerrero, none of the others on that list swing at pitches outside of the strike zone as often as Hamilton.  In fact, the only others on the list who swing at pitches outside of the strike zone even a third of the time are Freeman (36.8%) and Gonzalez (35.5%).  

Guerrero and Hamilton are also the outliers when it comes to pitches within the strike zone that they chase...Hamilton and Vlad (80.5%) are the only ones above 80%.  Freddie Freeman is at 76.4%, Ryan Howard is at 71.7%, and everyone else is at 70% or less.  

Hamilton and Guerrero are birds of a feather.  The rest of the guys on this list are, for the most part, selective.  They don't see a ton of strikes, but they don't chase many balls out of the zone, and are relatively selective on the strikes they do swing at.  Hamilton and Guerrero, though, are see-the-ball-chase-the-ball types.

And that's the thing that really scares me about Hamilton going forward.  He's survived, and thrived, because of incredible natural talent and hand-eye coordination.  He's thrived despite a terrible approach at the plate.  Its worked for him, so far.

But Hamilton looks to me to be the type of player who, once his bat slows even a fractional amount, is going to slip quickly.

The two recent players who seem most similar to Hamilton, in terms of both approach and performance through age 30, are Vladimir Guerrero and Alfonso Soriano.  All fast, athletic players who made up for a lack of plate discipline with a preternatural ability to make contact and drive the ball, wherever it might be pitched.

Here's Vlad's numbers from age 27 through age 31:

 

Year AVG OBP SLG wRC+
2002 .336 .417 .593 154
2003 .330 .426 .586 152
2004 .337 .391 .598 156
2005 .317 .394 .565 151
2006 .329 .382 .552 135

Here's Vlad's numbers from age 32 (Hamilton's first free agency year) through last season's age 36 campaign:

 

Year AVG OBP SLG wRC+
2007 .324 .403 .547 141
2008 .303 .365 .521 128
2009 .295 .334 .460 106
2010 .300 .345 .496 119
2011 .290 .317 .416 95

How about Alfonso Soriano?  From age 27 through age 31:

 

Year AVG OBP SLG wRC+
2003 .290 .338 .525 128
2004 .280 .324 .484 100
2005 .268 .309 .512 114
2006 .277 .351 .560 130
2007 .299 .337 .560 123

And then from age 32 through last season's age 35 campaign:

 

Year AVG OBP SLG wRC+
2008 .280 .344 .532 121
2009 .241 .303 .423 84
2010 .258 .322 .496 113
2011 .244 .289 .469 99

Hamilton is better than Soriano, not as good as Guerrero, but I suspect that his aging pattern will look similar.  If he stays healthy (a huge if with him anyway), Hamilton will probably be solid in 2012, 2013, maybe 2014.  But around 2014-15, I expect Hamilton to start sliding, and when the slide comes, it will be dramatic and ugly.  Between injuries and skill deterioration, I expect Hamilton to be done as a regular by 2016.

Its going to be tough for the Rangers to let Hamilton walk.  He's wildly popular, and the casual fans are already clamoring for the Rangers to go ahead and give him $20 million per year for the next half-dozen years.  Letting C.J. Wilson walk is one thing...the team will catch some flak, sure, but it will blow over quick.  Letting Josh Hamilton go, though, will be a whole different firestorm, one that will probably generate more anger among Rangers fans than anything since Pudge left a decade ago.

And maybe it won't happen.  Maybe Hamilton will agree to a reasonable, short-term deal to stick around a few more years.

I don't expect it to happen, though.  I expect some team looking to make a splash, wanting a middle of the order hitter and a big name that will galvanize the fans, to give Hamilton Jayson Werth money.

And when that happens, I sure as hell hope the Rangers have the sense to let him walk.

Comment 751 comments  |  11 recs  | 

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LOL

We’re not about sending messages. We’re about winning ballgames.-Wash, 04/03/11
Hell to the fucking no. -Wash, 10/07/11

by Rodney on Nov 28, 2011 11:38 AM CST up reply actions  

its soo fucking true, awesome

NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development

Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM

by shock00 on Nov 28, 2011 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

If you haven't read this thread yet:

I used to own Mickey Tettleton's couch.

by Pith on Nov 29, 2011 2:15 AM CST up reply actions  

i guarantee you Josey thought "tl;dr" before drafting his first post.

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

heh

NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development

Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM

by shock00 on Nov 28, 2011 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks! haha

I think we're going innnnnnn.

by TTWBG on Nov 28, 2011 1:41 PM CST up reply actions  

couldn't resist

NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development

Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM

by shock00 on Nov 28, 2011 1:43 PM CST up reply actions  

hah, I know.

That’s why I did it to myself haha

I think we're going innnnnnn.

by TTWBG on Nov 28, 2011 1:45 PM CST up reply actions  

word

NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development

Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM

by shock00 on Nov 28, 2011 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not totally against this thinking

but I wonder what we could get in a trade for Josh this off season, and then put
some money in one of the big FA bats.

Josh Hamilton: "I just show up, look at the lineup and play where I’m told. If they want me to catch, I’ll catch."

by SonnyKoufaxLSU on Nov 28, 2011 10:35 AM CST reply actions  

Creates a hole

If we can package Hamilton with prospects for Jason Heyward, or someone like that—let’s do it.

But we’re in win-now mode.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 11:02 AM CST up reply actions  

The Rangers don't need the saved money that would come from that.

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
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by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 11:07 AM CST up reply actions  

Yessir

Without Prince, letting Hamilton walk hurts a lot more.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 11:02 AM CST up reply actions  

i want prince too.

Any more and you are getting a cease and desist from chromasters balls inc. - Chromaster

by Mr. Abe Froman on Nov 28, 2011 11:04 AM CST up reply actions  

another player who might not age well

but I think you have a few years before the decline sets in.

Some see a glass half empty, some a glass half full. I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be. - George Carlin

by t ball on Nov 28, 2011 12:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep.

Szymborski’s ZIPS projection suggests that Hamilton could be worth 89 million over a 7-year free agent contract.

Fielder could be worth between 121 and 179 million over a 7-year free agent contract.

Of course, I don’t think there’s any chance Hamilton will get near Werth’s 7/129 contract.

by cstorm15 on Nov 28, 2011 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Management has to bring in Prince

before Josh goes. Is there another big FA coming out next yr that is comparable to Josh or Prince?

by hateball on Nov 28, 2011 12:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Not since Kemp re-signed

Bourne is the best option, but we (knock on wood) shouldn’t need a CF

Ethier is an option, but I don’t think his contract will be any more attractive than what Hamilton is going to get

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 12:48 PM CST up reply actions  

If we can bring up Martin

hopefully he would replace Josh’s speed and Prince would replace Josh’s bat. Kinda sucks to look at two different players replacing one.

by hateball on Nov 28, 2011 12:57 PM CST up reply actions  

look at the whole picture though

moreland + hamilton vs martin (and defense in CF) + prince

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 12:58 PM CST up reply actions  

That's why replacing specific players doesn't make sense.

You put the biggest talent you can find in the place it makes the most sense.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 1:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Prince Fielder

Big Talent or just Big

i keed i keed

Expectation is the root of all heartache. — William Shakespeare

by TheDutchOven on Nov 28, 2011 1:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Someone has to replace the production that Josh

brings. I should have left out the part of replacing one players talent w/ two. I personally think Josh is on a decline or at least headed that way. I just would hate to see him go, but I too think that is the way things are headed.

by hateball on Nov 28, 2011 1:12 PM CST up reply actions  

He doesn't have to be replaced

If the Rangers can find a 2-3 WAR player to take his spot, combined with marginal improvement by other players, we can succeed without him.

I want to get better, though :)

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 1:22 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not trying to make him out to be Jacoby Ellsbury

but he has decent speed on the base paths and good range in the OF. I know he only stole eight bases this past yr…

by hateball on Nov 28, 2011 1:19 PM CST up reply actions  

He has really good speed.

The problem is that it takes him a little while to get to full blast. But once he gets there, good God.

Also, like Adam said, He’s not a great CF’er

I think we're going innnnnnn.

by TTWBG on Nov 28, 2011 1:42 PM CST up reply actions  

I never said anything

about CF. There are plenty of ppl (that aren’t FA’s) I would take over him in CF.

by hateball on Nov 28, 2011 2:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep.

Exactly. If we’re going to let him go we better have some sort of offensive replacement.

"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel

by TXHC on Nov 28, 2011 8:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Im fine with letting Josh walk after 2012

But we would need someone else to fill those shoes both offensively and in the fan appeal angle. next years FA crop, now minus Kemp, doesn’t look all that great which is another reason to go sign Prince now. He fills both those holes that Josh will leave and the difference between keeping Josh and signing Prince will only be roughly 5-7 mil per year

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 10:37 AM CST reply actions  

Prince is the better hitter

but less of a defender and base runner (obviously)

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions  

that 5-7 mil difference

is also somewhat negated by the fact that Prince is never hurt and Josh is frequently hurt.

Life is pain - we've got to scrape the joy from it every chance we get.

by jshcmp on Nov 28, 2011 11:18 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't think Prince's contract will ever look like a genius signing

But he solves a lot of problems that we have going forward.

Mitch could even work on his LF’ing, if they believe so much in his bat, to replace Josh. His bat would play a lot better as a LF than 1b, no?

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 11:20 AM CST up reply actions  

I think if the contract is structured right it could look like one

But it would also depend on Prince making a questionable decision and some other team making a bad decision somewhere later on.

I just really think he looks like the right age of a player to take an opt out, have 4 great years destroying people in RBiA and then go get another 8 yer deal from someone else and we part ways. I know that would be the best case scenario for us, but I’m just way too excited about the idea of Kinsler, Young, Hamilton, Fielder, Beltre, Cruz, Napoli, Andrus, CF as a lineup.

What do voluntary mean?

The dude abides.....

by JKolar on Nov 28, 2011 11:23 AM CST up reply actions  

I certainly agree

Mitch has a very good arm for a COF and I get the feeling that he might play more LF/RF this year since Murphy is most likely gone. That scenario makes even more sense if Prince is signed.

Life is pain - we've got to scrape the joy from it every chance we get.

by jshcmp on Nov 28, 2011 11:26 AM CST up reply actions  

It's a downgrade in defense, but he'd be a cheap option to replace Josh

Would you rather Josh + Moreland or Moreland + Prince (+ a season of Josh + Prince)?

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Moreland + Prince (+ a season of Josh + Prince)

If you are going to start spending some insane money, that would be the best way to do it.

Life is pain - we've got to scrape the joy from it every chance we get.

by jshcmp on Nov 28, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Most likely? Not sure.

But he is a candidate to be non-tendered because of his cost and role.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah

Some team could view him as a starting OF and hes still cheap enough for them to give us something in return

Wont be much though

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 11:47 AM CST up reply actions  

gagree

it doesn’t make much sense for them to pay Murphy $5 mil+ for any role.

Life is pain - we've got to scrape the joy from it every chance we get.

by jshcmp on Nov 28, 2011 11:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Right

and even a A prospect is better than non-tendering (obviously)

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 11:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Hamilton's unique situation

is the only reason the Rangers might get him at a discount. Based on his past history, if he is comfortable here and feels he has a strong support system in place, he might stay for less money. Hell, he doesn’t even carry his own money around, so how much he makes might not matter as much to him.

"Calmer than you are dude"

by Arlington Stadium Legend on Nov 28, 2011 10:38 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

This has been my thinking all along.

"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz

"Baseball's all that's real" - JB

by Ryin A on Nov 28, 2011 10:54 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

The extension Josh signed wasn't all that "team-friendly" ... 2/29 or somesuch.

The Window to win a World Series is really snug right now…teams that lose 2 WS in a row don’t go back and we’re also about to lose CJ.

If we lose Josh, The Window closes.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:02 AM CST up reply actions  

Back your bags, folks

it’s over… good run.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

It sucks

when you try and use sarcasm to insult and spell stuff wrong…

"Calmer than you are dude"

by Arlington Stadium Legend on Nov 28, 2011 11:06 AM CST up reply actions  

You're undervaluing Josh, Adam.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:09 AM CST up reply actions  

You're overvaluing the impact of one player on a team

According to you, if Josh gets hurt in spring training and is out for the year, we should start selling off veterans and go into 100 loss rebuilding mode because the team can’t win without him.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 28, 2011 11:15 AM CST up reply actions  

Those are your words. I never, ever said that.

It’s going to be tough to win at an elite level (95+ wins) in 2012 if we bring everybody back (including CJ). If they lost Josh to injury (and CJ to free agency), they’d scuffle to win more than 85 games.

You’re acting like 2012 is going to be exactly like 2011.

This was a dream season where so many things fell into place. To believe that’s going to be a constant when the vast majority of our players are aged 30-35 and we have exactly one very good player in the system aged 23-28…is naive.

I’ve said it over and over…this off-season is going to be the biggest challenge JD has faced.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Don't know...a Do-Gooder needs to go find that bottle of research.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:37 AM CST up reply actions  

I really want you to answer if your wife knows how much you argue on the internet.

I mean… mine does. She rolls her eyes at it… I assume your wife does too. Kids might not… but when I think about the many hours you’ve spent for YEARS just bickering on the internet about Rangers baseball and your wife giving you the same eye roll my wife gives me it cracks me up.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions  

what a troll

Expectation is the root of all heartache. — William Shakespeare

by TheDutchOven on Nov 28, 2011 11:40 AM CST up reply actions  

I honestly can't remember...it doesn't really matter

because this team is another year older, The Window closed a little bit more this past October and two of the most important contributors to the last two seasons are due to get paid.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:43 AM CST up reply actions  

CJ is one

who is the other?

Expectation is the root of all heartache. — William Shakespeare

by TheDutchOven on Nov 28, 2011 11:45 AM CST up reply actions  

I find it hard to believe

that you can supposedly remember the most trivial facts from baseball seasons in the 70’s and 80’s at the drop of a hat, but can’t seem to remember what you said about the Rangers last year…

"Calmer than you are dude"

by Arlington Stadium Legend on Nov 28, 2011 11:45 AM CST up reply actions  

Go find it...I'm not sure if I said it or not. If you find a quote, lets look at the context.

It was easy to see what the Rangers needs were going into 2011.

I think this off-season is much tougher than before because the temptation is to bring everybody back (AFTER ALL, WE WENT TO THE WORLD SERIES THE LAST TWO YEARS) when that’s the last thing you should do.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:51 AM CST up reply actions  

Hmmm....

Who was the first person on the resign CJ campaign?

Expectation is the root of all heartache. — William Shakespeare

by TheDutchOven on Nov 28, 2011 11:53 AM CST up reply actions  

I want both CJ & Josh back.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions  

But... But...

You just said

temptation is to bring everybody back (AFTER ALL, WE WENT TO THE WORLD SERIES THE LAST TWO YEARS) when that’s the last thing you should do.

I’m confused, isn’t bringing them both back bringing the same team back?

And Josh is signed for 2012.

Expectation is the root of all heartache. — William Shakespeare

by TheDutchOven on Nov 28, 2011 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

JD said that you can't bring the exact same team

back either otherwise because they become stale.

What JD needs to do is get more good to very good players aged 24-28.

How he gets there is why I keep saying this off-season is his biggest challenge.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Not that you'd give him credit

and god forbid we see one sentence that whoever met with Nolan for 10 minutes.. then all credit would go to him.

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
Beware of Trolls: b.pate, K.S.B., Panorama, Robert L. Bishop, TideNTexas

by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 12:05 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I credit Nolan with properly evaluating This Thing

during 2008 and turning the entire organization around in 2009.

JD has done anywhere from a very good to great job since the 2009 season ended.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Honest question

do you have a copy and paste of this statement?

or, do you retype it?

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 12:14 PM CST up reply actions  

I love your arbitrary ages

Guys 24-28 are so easy to acquie right?

Give me some names of guys who fit into that age bracket who we should go after

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Prince Fielder

Expectation is the root of all heartache. — William Shakespeare

by TheDutchOven on Nov 28, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions  

That's hardly 'easy'

Signing Fielder right now is going to give up just as much in future value as trading for one of the elite young players in the league…just value in a different form.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe

Trading away our prospects might afford the ability to give another huge contract in the future.

But then, you’re dependent on the availability of a FA becoming available to fill your needs.

If you sign the FA that fills your needs now, and save your prospects for later…. theree’s always a much larger pool of players from which to trade than to sign

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure,

but using those future dollars might prohibit you from future moves…both trades and FA signings.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:13 PM CST up reply actions  

True - on the trade front

But if you’re looking to trade for young, controllable talent—it;s less of an issue.

Also, it’s easier to convince billionaires to throw in some extra dough to afford a big time trade target,

than it is to conjure up some prospects.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 12:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Nah, they may be maganimous owners,

but they aren’t economic idiots.

The better argument here is that you back load the contract to more effectively take advantage of the coming TV deal.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:18 PM CST up reply actions  

A lot of sports owners

are willing to act as “economic idiots” because of their egos and the competition of the thing.

A one-year $10M increase in payroll is such a small portion of their net worths, especially considering that it could lead to a return…

You can’t depend on this, but there’s always a chance.

Additionally, prospects are more valuable under this new system, imo, where you can’t guarantee an influx of talented players with big $$.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Fielder is only gonna cost you 5-7 mil more per year than Josh

And lenght will likely be similar (given Josh ialready under contract for 2012)

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 12:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes,

the best argument for Fielder is that you are choosing him over Hamilton as the long term middle of the order power bat.

I’m just not convinced that the Rangers FO (as opposed to Washington) prefers to invest that much money in a proven power bat as opposed to trying to build a deeper, more balanced lineup.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think those are mutually exclusive

Because we have a huge quantity of high-ceiling prospects, and obviously would like to hold on to our top quality prospects,

I think we can use the David Perez’s of our system to acquire a balanced lineup for cheap

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 12:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Not by definition, no,

but I don’t like projecting best case scenarios.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:27 PM CST up reply actions  

How is that projecting best case scenario?

We’re talking about which assets to use and which to save to best maximize current talent and still have future maneuverability.

’splain, because I might be misunderstanding you.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 12:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Is that true?

Can’t buy amateur talent going forward like the past, and increasing ceiling of Rangers payroll?

by octoberty on Nov 28, 2011 12:27 PM CST up reply actions  

How many of the Rangers blue chip prospects

came from (grossly) outspending others? Sure, Guzman and Mazara (and I guess Martin, though that seems a bit different) fall into that category, but Perez and Profar weren’t absurd bonuses and Olt and Ramirez weren’t exactly bonus babies, no?

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Good points

We haven’t done it until recently. I think it’s nonetheless, more difficult to count on the ability to bring in young talent.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 12:36 PM CST up reply actions  

It's always a concern,

but I have more confidence in the Rangers than I do in all but a handful of teams.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:38 PM CST up reply actions  

No, they're not easy to acquire.

That’s part of the reason I keep saying this is a very difficult off-season for JD.

If you looking for an organizational weakness, that’s ours.

Not talking about pitchers…I’m talking about every day players.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:12 PM CST up reply actions  

You realize that

the Rangers had arguably the best collection of position players in the majors last year, right? And that 3 of it’s top 5 prospects are position players?

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Only one though looks to be a "impact" bat

And that player is roughly 3 years away from the majors with a lot of hurdles and question marks along the way.

I dont think its wrong to say our positional player depth is our biggest issue. especially when you are talking about potential true impact players even remotely close to the majors

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 12:21 PM CST up reply actions  

True,

but there are less holes to fill position player wise on the MLB team.

Next year’s team will feature all of the guys that last year’s historic lineup featured, with a chance at more sustainable production from CF.

Things get a bit more hairy in 2013, but they will still likely have the best lineup in the division with Kinsler, Beltre, Napoli, Young, Cruz, etc. Also, I think the chances of JD not adding a significant bat over the next 2 years, especially given the assumed losses here, are pretty small.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Ok but who would that significant bat be?

Thats part of the problem. Any trade likely takes at least 1 if not 2 of those upper level minor league positional players out of the system.

And looking at the FA list for this and next years classes is uninspiring not to mention we will be going up against the Yankees and Red Sox next winter. And under the new CBA those teams especially will be playing with far more money than we have.

I just think this year sets up perfectly for us to make a huge splash, fill a rather significant need for 2012, and fill a huge need for 2013 and beyond

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 12:28 PM CST up reply actions  

I hate the idea of a Fielder signing much less now than I did before,

but I’m still leery of the (long term) price.

Honestly, I’m not sure right now who that big bat is. But realize that elite bats can arise from strange places. Mike Napoli is the guy who comes to mind for the Rangers, but think about guys once/now viewed as elite hitters like David Ortiz, Jayson Werth, Jose Bautista, Josh Hamilton, etc.

While there are a select few hitters like Pujols who are on top every year, most guys are more variable. Given that, there’s a good argument to be made that you’re better off investing in a bunch of guys who could, but aren’t locks to be elite hitters than investing in one guy who is almost a lock to be one.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:35 PM CST up reply actions  

That makes a lot of sense

But, it worries me that we could try for one of those guys, and he can fall short (probability says JD can’t be perfectly right in EVERY transaction he makes, right?)… and we might fall short of the playoffs.

We seemingly have the payroll to do so, and the perfect storm of circumstances that makes Prince a good move for the Rangers.

I think the contract will be bad, and will hurt at some point, if he doesn’t opt out. So it’s hard to knowingly accept the bad with the good.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 12:40 PM CST up reply actions  

"What JD needs to do is get more good to very good players aged 24-28."

Holy shit, do you think he knows? Can someone tell him? Get JD on the phone, we’ve got the answer right here!

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 12:14 PM CST up reply actions  

You see...

This meme bugs me more than window is snug JW line of thinking. If this team has young players, improving players, the experience of playing in two world series can really help make them a better team. But you are of the mind…we must get better, we must not be stagnant, when this team was one strike away from winning the World Series.

The question becomes “How do you get beter,” and “Who do you replace to get better?”

by Philar on Nov 28, 2011 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

The way you sustain a run of several years...especially

if you lose both CJ & Josh is to add more young players to the mix and not depend on those players presently aged 30-35 to become even better than they were in 2011.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

How old is CJ and Josh?

If both are in their 30s, and CJ hasn’t in particular shown the wear and tear in two starting season after bullpen years will impact on him, then the issue becomes age-related regression. I want CJ to come back, but not at $20 million per year for five years or longer.

I want Josh to come back if he is extended, or gets his batting mentality in line so he can actually be more selective at the plate. If Josh doesn’t do that, then he likely will regress. I hate talking about regression, but it does come into play at times, and it affects signing value.

by Philar on Nov 28, 2011 1:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Not only just being selective..

I would like Josh to decide whether he wants to be a contact, spray the ball hitter, or a badass, drive the ball 115 mph off the bat at every chance.

I think we're going innnnnnn.

by TTWBG on Nov 28, 2011 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

I wouldn't change a thing with Josh right now.

He’s a badass.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 2:12 PM CST up reply actions  

I hope you understand why I'm not flailing away

at potential trade targets because I don’t know who JD considers to be a part of the 2013 core.

He’s going to need to exclude one of Elvis, Kinz or Profar at one point.

He may need to make a tough decision regarding Cruz.

What if Napoli wants more than VMart?

Could he try and sell high on Matty Ice or does he need to keep him because he may also lose Cobra after 2012?

There are too many variables to simply start stabbing at the dark.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 1:56 PM CST up reply actions  

So if Josey Wales was GM, what would be the plan?

How would you answer those questions? And I strongly suspect Napoli does not expect more than V-Mart…

Anger logic's so great I kinda forget what we saw in regular logic in the first place.

by colonialbob on Nov 28, 2011 1:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Right now he shouldn't

But if he has another year like 2011 he could easily ask for VMart+ money

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 1:58 PM CST up reply actions  

He won't have a year as good as this again

For one thing, he had a .344 BABIP…

Anger logic's so great I kinda forget what we saw in regular logic in the first place.

by colonialbob on Nov 28, 2011 2:05 PM CST up reply actions  

It depends if the goal is short-term or

long-term.

I don’t think you can do both.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 2:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Best team possible for the next 2-3 years

Try to keep that window open for as long as possible.

Anger logic's so great I kinda forget what we saw in regular logic in the first place.

by colonialbob on Nov 28, 2011 2:16 PM CST up reply actions  

I re-sign both Josh & CJ. I extend Napoli.

I then look to deal Nelson Cruz and perhaps Harrison and Profar for the best package of 2 24-28 year old players that fit our roster.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

That wouldn't be enough to get

two players in their 20’s. And do you have any specific players in mind?

by hateball on Nov 28, 2011 2:31 PM CST up reply actions  

i would only trade Profar in a package for Kershaw

that is all

NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development

Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM

by shock00 on Nov 28, 2011 2:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Who? What positions?

I’m guessing first base and right field? But then you also put a hole in your roto by dealing Harrison.

Anger logic's so great I kinda forget what we saw in regular logic in the first place.

by colonialbob on Nov 28, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions  

No, I've signed CJ and Feliz is going to the roto.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh, true.

So a rotation of CJ, Holland, Colby, Feliz, Ogando? But then who do you trade for? Especially considering you’ve got a ton of money tied up long-term

Anger logic's so great I kinda forget what we saw in regular logic in the first place.

by colonialbob on Nov 28, 2011 2:49 PM CST up reply actions  

You might be able to get Gardner

and Montero from the NY Yanks.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 2:54 PM CST up reply actions  

For

Profar, Cruz and Harrison?!

by hateball on Nov 28, 2011 2:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Doubt you'd be able to get both

Certainly wouldn’t mind having Gardner but I’m not sure I’d trade any of those three for him.

Anger logic's so great I kinda forget what we saw in regular logic in the first place.

by colonialbob on Nov 28, 2011 3:03 PM CST up reply actions  

So you're bringing back the same cast

or are you trading somebody else?

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 3:04 PM CST up reply actions  

No, I don't mind trading for somebody

but trading Profar for Gardner is…. wow.

Anger logic's so great I kinda forget what we saw in regular logic in the first place.

by colonialbob on Nov 28, 2011 4:15 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd think about it

Putting Gardner in CF is a massive upgrade.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 4:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't forget about Leonys

Not that he’s better than Gardner, but he narrows the gap, I think

Anger logic's so great I kinda forget what we saw in regular logic in the first place.

by colonialbob on Nov 28, 2011 4:22 PM CST up reply actions  

You're getting Montero as well.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 4:22 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think the Yankees trade him

Anger logic's so great I kinda forget what we saw in regular logic in the first place.

by colonialbob on Nov 28, 2011 4:23 PM CST up reply actions  

So why are the Yankees trading Montero again?

Their 2012 DH?

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 4:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 3:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Huh?

Why on earth would the Yankees trade Gardner?

Some see a glass half empty, some a glass half full. I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be. - George Carlin

by t ball on Nov 28, 2011 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

hahahahahahahah

oh man

you are on a roll today.

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 3:43 PM CST up reply actions  

xx
He’s going to need to exclude one of Elvis, Kinz or Profar at one point.

at some point, yes

but who knows if that point is in 3-4-5 years?

its not next year, that is for sure.

and napoli wont get more than vmart. period.

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 3:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Well...

On the pitching side that’s fairly well covered.

Holland, Harrison, Ogando, Feliz with Perez and Ramirez likely to make ML debuts in 2012 or 2013.

Losing CJ is less of something to replace with several talented young arms and much more on the way both close and far.

Positional talent is less clear cut. But I doubt JD just sits on his hands.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think the Rangers like having to replace Josh

but the reality is they may have to do it. And someplace out there in baseballand is probably an outfielder that could play defense, provide pop, and some speed. I jsut don’t see a whole lot of it right now. It seems like the Rangers are strong on the infield for awhile. But that doesn’t mean JD couldn’t dig up someone.

by Philar on Nov 28, 2011 2:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Heh.

Regardless of if the Rangers stay the same, or “get better”, it’s really fucking hard to get to the WS. Going into next year, their goal, I’m sure, will be winning the WS. If they don’t, is the season a failure? I don’t believe so. If they make it to the playoffs, and give themselves a chance to advance, then they will have had a successful season.

I think we're going innnnnnn.

by TTWBG on Nov 28, 2011 1:47 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree that evaluating a baseball season...

is different for baseball than football. I think there are three realistic phases to a season:
1) Winning enough games to get into the playoffs
2) Winning the American League playoffs
3) Winning the World Series

The first level is great, much better than most. The second level is the top shelve of baseball.
And the third level would be amazing.

It’s pretty tough to be upset with a team that has played the best baseball in its history.

by Philar on Nov 28, 2011 1:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Exactly. It's disappointing to fall short two years in a row.

But to look back at the whole thing? How lucky are we to be able to witness a team be the class of the league for two years in a row?

I think we're going innnnnnn.

by TTWBG on Nov 28, 2011 2:06 PM CST up reply actions  

What should one do with that bottle of research?

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 2:06 PM CST up reply actions  

C'mon now...

You told the world you went to a “wonderful school and made great grades.”

It shouldn’t be too tough for you.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 2:15 PM CST up reply actions  

What should one do with that bottle of research?

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 2:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Sandusky yourself

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

That doesn't make since.

/Ron Burgandy

I think we're going innnnnnn.

by TTWBG on Nov 28, 2011 2:49 PM CST up reply actions  

God dammit.

sense.

/nothing to see here

I think we're going innnnnnn.

by TTWBG on Nov 28, 2011 2:49 PM CST up reply actions  

makes sense

/Mitch Moreland

NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development

Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM

by shock00 on Nov 28, 2011 2:52 PM CST up reply actions  

haha

I think we're going innnnnnn.

by TTWBG on Nov 28, 2011 2:54 PM CST up reply actions  

i totally do not want to do any work today.

NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development

Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM

by shock00 on Nov 28, 2011 2:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't do any

I think we're going innnnnnn.

by TTWBG on Nov 28, 2011 3:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure did.

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 2:05 PM CST up reply actions  

So you think everything is going to fall into place like it did this past year?

5 starters are going to make 157 starts?

Napoli and Kinsler are both going to have another career year?

Young will have another MVP-caliber year in 2012 as a 35 year old?

A 37 year old closer coming off TJ is going to work as a closer?

One of the other true juggernauts in the AL is going to shit their pants like Boston did in 2011?

Nobody in our own division is going to get better?

And while your throwing out old predictions why don’t you mention your original thoughts on the Danks Trade, whether or not CJ could become an effective starter or how well Chris Davis was going to hit in 2010?

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:48 AM CST up reply actions  

Or that

Boggs and Teagarden will be better players than Nelson Cruz. Oh wait, AJM didn’t say that. Who did…?

"Calmer than you are dude"

by Arlington Stadium Legend on Nov 28, 2011 11:50 AM CST up reply actions  

Didn't JD waive Cruz before the 2008 season?

He didn’t think much of Cruz either.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:52 AM CST up reply actions  

Probably philkid

he was absolutely in love with Teagarden

No matter how much sense we used he would not let it go and believe that he fn sucks. He’s always looked mediocre at best.. Finally this year he has come to terms with it.

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
Beware of Trolls: b.pate, K.S.B., Panorama, Robert L. Bishop, TideNTexas

by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Baseball Prospectus said Teagarden was Mickey Tettleton with defensive chops.

They had me at “hello.”

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions  

No, they didn't

And yet, you keep saying it, as if it is the truth.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 28, 2011 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Baseball Prospectus 2009 Re one Taylor Teagarden.

“If you really want to get dreamy and optimistic, think Mickey Tettleton with Gold Glove-level skills and you get the picture.”

Quote directly from the book.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:07 PM CST up reply actions  

That isn't saying what you think it is saying.

It is saying Teagarden’s ceiling is Mickey Tettleton with GG skills.

It isn’t saying that he was that player. Obviously he didn’t reach his ceiling.

by Heebs on Nov 28, 2011 12:12 PM CST up reply actions  

I said "Mickey Tettleton with defensive chops"

and BP said “Mickey Tettleton with Gold Glove-level skills.”

That’s the loophole you’re looking to use?

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Congratulations to Ruben Mateo on his Rookie of the Year award.

Baseball Prospectus 2000

he should be an excellent hitter—if overrated—even with a poor walk rate… If healthy in 2000, he’s the frontrunner for AL Rookie of the Year.

by 3hacks on Nov 28, 2011 12:19 PM CST up reply actions  

No...

You said BP said Teagarden was Mickey Tettleton with defensive chops.

That is not what they said. They said he could be Tettleton with defensive chops. They never said he was that player. They were talking about his celing as a player, something he obviously never reached.

by Heebs on Nov 28, 2011 12:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I know they were talking about his

ceiling as a player…that’s what BP does with minor league prospects…that’s pretty fucking obvious / implied because the players haven’t done anything in The Show.

I was excited about TT because I liked what I saw (he killed it in September 2008) and what BP had to say about him.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:43 PM CST up reply actions  

If you know that, then why did you say this?
Baseball Prospectus said Teagarden was Mickey Tettleton with defensive chops.

by Heebs on Nov 28, 2011 12:45 PM CST up reply actions  

So you would have felt better if

I had said he was Mickey Tettleton with Gold Glove-level skills…got it.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:48 PM CST up reply actions  

No.

You should have said what they said…which is Teagarden’s ceiling is Tettleton with defensive chops. Those are two very different things.

by Heebs on Nov 28, 2011 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe to you.

Just like BP, I was dreamy and thought it was okay to believe he could be Mickey Tettleton with defensive chops.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:52 PM CST up reply actions  

You should have seen me after we

acquired Josh or how I felt when I saw Kinz in Spring Training back in 2005 (a full year before he went to The Show). I wouldn’t shut up about what I saw or how good they were going to be…called Hamilton a mix of Willie Davis and Willie McCovey.

I was sold on Nelson Cruz after I saw him at Spring Training in 2009.

I wasn’t sold on Elvis in 2009 but I was wrong.

If I see a dumbass like Judy Borbon or CDavis doing the same shit over and over, I’m not going to clap like a walrus just because they play for the Texas Rangers.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:58 PM CST up reply actions  

xx
I’m not going to clap like a walrus just because they play for the Texas Rangers.

strange, you do this with michael young every single day.

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 12:59 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Also loved what I saw from Michael

Young in Spring Training 2003 but the player who stole my heart that March was Mark Teixeira.

I loved me some Hank F back in the day as well….so you see, I have plenty of optimistic things to say about our young players….as long as they actually show me something.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 1:03 PM CST up reply actions  

And while we're busy railing on JW for

not being optimistic enough with our own players, I’m the lone voice in the forest screaming that we need to keep Josh.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 1:30 PM CST up reply actions  

explain the "need"

in 3 sentences or less

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 1:31 PM CST up reply actions  

still waiting mr. wales

or should i give up on it?

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 3:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I want to keep him...

But at 5/$80

He’s not worth more than that.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 1:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Surely you're not the only one that wants to keep him.

His track record for injuries is very concerning, and that’s about the only thing I have against signing him again.

by lost in space on Nov 28, 2011 1:33 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think we "need" to keep Josh.

If you take Josh out, the Rangers still have a very, very strong offense.

I think we're going innnnnnn.

by TTWBG on Nov 28, 2011 1:39 PM CST up reply actions  

He was out for most of April and May

and our offense shit all over itself.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

That was also when Naps wasn't playing damn near every day.

He was also performing fairly poorly when he was playing.

I think we're going innnnnnn.

by TTWBG on Nov 28, 2011 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

do you understand how truly small

the sample size is for you to personally see in ST?

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 1:07 PM CST up reply actions  

of course he "killed it"

his BABIP for that month was .429!

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 12:45 PM CST up reply actions  

You know that our best players are aged 30-35 and three of

those players had career years.

You also know that our starters made 157 of 162 starts.

You should know those things aren’t going to repeat in 2012 and there’s nobody coming up from the minors who is going to make an impact.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Elvis, maybe Moreland a notch.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Holland?

Adams + Uejara?

Feliz as a starter?

Feldman?

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 12:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Harrison?

Ogando (more consistency between 1st and 2nd halves)?
Lowe?
Kinsler/Beltre/Cruz having an excellent year?
Hamilton’s meh season?
Gentry?

by Akalhar on Nov 28, 2011 12:27 PM CST up reply actions  

I think Napoli had a career year, and is the only Ranger that has less than a 1% chance of improving.

The other 3 (+Hamilton) all COULD improve on their season. Beltre is probably the least likely to improve in the bunch, simply because he had such a great year (though improvement would be staying healthy).

by Akalhar on Nov 28, 2011 12:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I think you could hope that Beltre would be healthier.

"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11

by vfn on Nov 28, 2011 12:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I love that pic.

The anger sharks don’t swim in my head when I see this pic and have to relive the disappointing WS.

by hateball on Nov 28, 2011 12:52 PM CST up reply actions  

He is a dream

I shouldn’t sell him short, I spose

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 12:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Undisciplined hitter who is another year older.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Josh Hamilton

Expectation is the root of all heartache. — William Shakespeare

by TheDutchOven on Nov 28, 2011 12:45 PM CST up reply actions  

lolwut

arg, link here

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 12:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Also Colby.

Probably not 2010 Colby, but it is certainly possible he does better than 2011 Home Run Derby Colby.

by Akalhar on Nov 28, 2011 12:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Good point

I’m certainly more confident on Colby

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 12:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Would AJM prefer a bunch of yes men / fan boys

who fawn over every thought he has about the Rangers?

I’m kicking the ball around…it’s a baseball discussion about the thread AJM posted. Sure, a few people are dropping their gloves in front of me but I’m not engaging them. Nothing is personal from my side, you’re the one who pulled out the box of Kleenex.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:23 PM CST up reply actions  

You're not kicking a ball around

You’re beating a dead horse.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 12:24 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

bigsteve...I don't know...that's our glaring organizational

weakness and why I keep saying this is JD’s most challenging off-season to date.

It’s easy to say, well we scored more than 850+ runs and gave up less than 700…why do anything?

I’ve applauded JD for saying you can’t do that or the organization becomes stale.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Give me names damnit

If you want to come on here and throw out such a vague statement like that I want specific names.

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 12:29 PM CST up reply actions  

It's pointless because I don't know who

JD is willing to trade or who is available.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Bullshit.

They’re run much better since Nolan Ryan became JD’s immediate superior.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 1:56 PM CST up reply actions  

You're saying you don't bitch about moves?

You bitched about every move made in the year I’ve been on this site except for trading for Mike Adams.

Every other signing or trade has received criticism from you as being a bad move.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 2:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Simply not true.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 10:26 PM CST up reply actions  

What moves other than Mike Adams did you not rip?

I know you did Torrealba, Beltre, Rhodes, Webb & Napoli.

Then Koji.

What other moves have their been?

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 10:54 PM CST up reply actions  

I liked the trade for Francouer.

I wasn’t sure about Vlad but gave it the greenlight after seeing him in person at Spring Training.

I liked O’Day.

I was ultimately okay with the deal for PS Koufax.

I’ve given much praise for the Endy deal.

Koji…I was okay with the move at first but cautious as well…not a big fan of plate spinners and thought it was the kind of trade that could bite you in the ass.

Now would be a good time to go ahead and admit you were wrong.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 10:58 PM CST up reply actions  

No... I wasn't here for those.

I’ve only been around for a year.

I said all the moves since I’ve been here.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 10:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Also...

Do you remember in the spring when you told me that Webb, Rhodes, Torrealba & Napoli were unlikely to give you 4 WAR?

You were almost right… Webb gave nothing, Rhodes negative value and Torrealba only a bit.

But dat Napoli… 5.6 all by himself. ;)

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:02 PM CST up reply actions  

He good.

He also gonna be expen$ive.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:06 PM CST up reply actions  

I think you're overestimating.

Though that’s usually safer than underestimating.

I don’t think his track record is long enough if we extend him this off season to warrant V-Mart money.

And if he really wants that it’s probably not a good idea to give it to him.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:10 PM CST up reply actions  

If I'm his agent, the least I'm willing to

accept is the VMart Contract.

He was making nearly $ 6 million last year and then put up a career year.

Sorry, Adam…3/25 isn’t going to cut it.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:13 PM CST up reply actions  

You didn't say you'd offer 3/25 to Napoli this off-season?

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Here we go...in reference to what you'd sign Napoli for this off-season.

I’d offer him 3 years, $25 million
Maybe a 4th year team option at $12 million with a $2 million buyout.

If that doesn’t do it, then I’d do a one year deal and re-evaluate after 2012.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 1, 2011 11:03 AM EDT

http://www.lonestarball.com/2011/11/1/2529726/tuesday-a-m-rangers-stuff

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 29, 2011 12:16 AM CST up reply actions  

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 29, 2011 7:32 AM CST up reply actions  

LOL

"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel

by TXHC on Nov 28, 2011 8:22 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd kick the tires on BJ Upton.

I really like Brett Gardner, Bourjos, McCutcheon, Choo and Markakis.

I’m intrigued with Allen Craig if Pujols comes back and he doesn’t have a position.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 2:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I think we can mark McCutcheon off due to the fact it would cost everything in the world to trade for him

Upton: FA after 2012 so unless he signs a extension it wouldn’t help the cause

Gardner: Cant really see the Yanks being willing to deal him but I would be intruiged with the thought. 3 years of team control left

Bourjous: No thanks. We have a ML ready CF so no need for him IMO.

Choo: He’ll be 30 in July. 2 years of team control left. Coming off a bad year and was injured. Could be a decent target although he wouldn’t help us in the long term

Markakis: 3 years/ 42 mil left on deal with a option for 17.5 mil in 2015. 3 straight years of non-great OPS’s. Not great power. Hasn’t OPSed over 805 since signing extension. Probably could be had if we took on his contract but I’d rather let Josh walk, extend Cruz through 2014 with a 2015 option (cheaper than Markakis would be) and sign Prince

Thanks for giving names at least athough I dont agree with most of them you listed

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 2:21 PM CST up reply actions  

you dont agree with them

mainly because 2 are fairly close to untouchable

1 isnt very good
1 is injured
and 1 cant hit.

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 3:45 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not upset with the Rangers but if you

want to believe This Thing can have sustained success beyond 2012 if they lose both CJ & Josh, we’re going to need more players aged 24-28 who are anywhere from good to great.

Expecting everybody to do what they did in 2013 what they did in 2011 and seeing greater success sans CJ & Josh than they ever accomplished previously is painfully naive.

My hope is that JD gets this and from his comments after the season ended, he may.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:36 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure he understands the goal of every professional organization ever.

I’m about 137% sure he gets it.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 12:38 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Can this post say anything less?

Expectation is the root of all heartache. — William Shakespeare

by TheDutchOven on Nov 28, 2011 12:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Nothing wrong with being critical, with good analysis

Making absolutist statements one year after another, predicting Rangers failure and bemoaning our dumb GMs moves, is biased, stupid, pointless, and baiting.

Moreover, you don’t consider anyone else’s logic. The first view you take on an issue is the last view (until the facts incontrovertibly state otherwise**)

**Exception: JD’s 2007 and 2008 performance

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 12:27 PM CST up reply actions  

"bemoaning our dumb GMs moves...."

I’ve said over and over that JD did very well after 2009.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Nope.

Thought Francisco was too valuable.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Hated it.

Why would Scioscia get rid of someone that could help him at catcher?

Scioscia knows catchers, after all.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 12:37 PM CST up reply actions  

The bullpen was in shambles.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Frankie Francisco wouldn't have made a difference

Tommy Hunter is what killed the bullpen.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 12:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Hah
Basically, all the things that led to our WS’s appearances

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I thought you disapproved or were above this back n forth?

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Signing Beltre apparently means we're not

going to be able to afford CJ or Josh.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:39 PM CST up reply actions  

more recs needed here

Some see a glass half empty, some a glass half full. I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be. - George Carlin

by t ball on Nov 28, 2011 7:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Can I be the JW

of ODB? Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease?

"Calmer than you are dude"

by Arlington Stadium Legend on Nov 28, 2011 12:43 PM CST up reply actions  

You can come over whenever you like.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 12:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Have you got more than 5 responses from an article yet?

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Is there a way I can answer this

that will cause you to stay here?

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:46 PM CST up reply actions  

xx

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 12:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Have you had more than 5 original thoughts today?

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 12:48 PM CST up reply actions  

You know better than this.

"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel

by TXHC on Nov 28, 2011 8:25 PM CST up reply actions  

based on?

zero logic.

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 12:42 PM CST up reply actions  

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I KNEW THIS WOULD BE COMING, SOONER OR LATER. FIGMENT OF YOUR MOTHERFUCKING IMAGINATION, JOSEY.

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 3:56 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not saying that either...what I keep saying is that JD

has an enormous challenge in front of him if he wants This Thing to have sustained success.

Cutting CJ & Josh loose for 4 draft picks isn’t going to help us in 2013.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:18 PM CST up reply actions  

how do you know?
Cutting CJ & Josh loose for 4 draft picks isn’t going to help us in 2013.

how could you possibly know this?

no, really. how?

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 12:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't count on it Adam

By Josey’s timeline it’ll be another 30-40 yrs. This organization is performing WAY above their heads right now…

by hateball on Nov 28, 2011 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

"Nobody coming up from the minors who is going to make an impact."

You follow our prospects about as well as you do Texas A&M recruiting, so how do you know that?

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 12:24 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Josey is known for his horrible predictions

I tune in at the start of each year to get a good laugh at what ridiculous, obviously incorrect prediction he has for us next.

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
Beware of Trolls: b.pate, K.S.B., Panorama, Robert L. Bishop, TideNTexas

by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 11:54 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

This year for example:

AL West: A’s (Wrong)
AL Central: White Sox (Wrong)
AL East: Red Sox (Wrong)
Picked the Yankees to win the WC, so he got one AL team right.

NL West: Giants (Wrong)
NL Central: Brewers (Right)
NL East: Braves (Wrong) and picked the Phillies to finish 3rd

W.S Braves vs. Red Sox, neither team made the post season.

"Calmer than you are dude"

by Arlington Stadium Legend on Nov 28, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions  

I believe had Detroit winning the WC.

I didn’t have the Giants winning the NL West.

I thought the Giants would take a step back…lightning in a bottle teams like they threw together in 2011 do that.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Who had the Dbacks?

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

No one.

Absolutely no one.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

That's not the point.

The point is you blow your trumpet, scream for everyone to gather round and listen to your predictions, and than you get 2 of 8 teams right and both your W.S. participants miss the post season entirely.

"Calmer than you are dude"

by Arlington Stadium Legend on Nov 28, 2011 12:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Tech lost

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
Beware of Trolls: b.pate, K.S.B., Panorama, Robert L. Bishop, TideNTexas

by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 11:09 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

It was expected.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:09 AM CST up reply actions  

I look forward to this coming up in another "I was on the fence" discussion like the one we had the other day.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 11:13 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

what if he blows out his knee next year

is the window still closed or open?

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 12:29 PM CST up reply actions  

I think AJM made a pretty compelling case about why he could get Werth money

I don’t think he does, bc I think most teams immediately thought the Werth contract was absurd (and maybe Nats are starting to realize that, themselves).

I think he gets 5/90-100, though.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 11:04 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure he gets 5 guaranteed years,

but it may be an easily achievable 5-6 non-guaranteed years.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:03 PM CST up reply actions  

support system gone

I jinxed the Rangers on 13 April 2011

by TagDon'tTweet on Nov 28, 2011 2:31 PM CST up reply actions  

I gotta feeling

JD agrees with you. I’d do a 3yr extension and expect what he has done the past 3 years.

by RangerMad on Nov 28, 2011 10:39 AM CST reply actions  

Cruz is also up.

Do you let him walk, too? Where have all the powers gone? Can’t many of (obviously not all) the concerns for Josh be applied to Nelly, too?

"...out of the shadows of unprecedented success, the sun shines down upon this team waiting to thrill anew." - ghostofErikThompson

by jam0152 on Nov 28, 2011 10:39 AM CST reply actions  

Cruz isn't a FA until after 2013

Hes a guy I approach with a 3 year deal right now which only buys out 1 FA year

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 10:40 AM CST up reply actions  

My bad, I kept thinking they both walked after this season.

"...out of the shadows of unprecedented success, the sun shines down upon this team waiting to thrill anew." - ghostofErikThompson

by jam0152 on Nov 28, 2011 10:41 AM CST up reply actions  

hmmmm

Wondering out loud. If JD does try to extend him and they can’t get a deal done be the end of ST, do you trade him? Trade him in July or just be happy with a draft pick?

by RangerMad on Nov 28, 2011 10:40 AM CST reply actions  

Take the pick for sure

At least I get to see the Rangers when they play the Twins now.

by TargetField on Nov 28, 2011 10:41 AM CST up reply actions  

This is supposed to be a World Series contender

Why would you trade one of your best players at the end of spring training, or in July?

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 28, 2011 10:42 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

A lot of Rangers fans don't know how to think like a WS contender.

Can’t really blame them.

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 4:01 PM CST up reply actions  

If you know for a fact that you're not going to sign Josh, you need to strongly consider trading

him when his value is at it’s highest.

Somebody who is truly realistic about This Thing and is more interested in the long-term would give it heavy consideration for the right package.

That somebody has to have the brains and the stones to acknowledge that teams that go to the World Series two years in a row and come up short usually have quite the hangover the following year.

I don’t want to trade him…I want him here for the next 7-8 years but if you know he’s gone after this year, you don’t take two motherfucking picks for him.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 4:07 PM CST up reply actions  

So the odds are we won't go to the WS next year

Likewise for every other team in the league.

Thus, we should go into sell-mode? What the what?!

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 4:12 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm the one who wants to keep Josh long-term.

If you know you’re not going to do that, you need to start thinking about who you want to be here from 2013-2015.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 4:20 PM CST up reply actions  

If our team might be slightly worse for 2013-2015....

then we should give up on 2012, despite having one of the best rosters in baseball?

What the what?!?

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 4:21 PM CST up reply actions  

You're not giving up on 2012 if you trade Josh for the right talent that is

ready to play in The Show right now…not two fucking draft picks that won’t be here until 2015, if they can even play.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 4:23 PM CST up reply actions  

If you trade Hamilton, here's what you'll get

(a) and equally talented player with only 1 year left

or

(b) a much less talented player (or conversely, a prospect) with multiple years left.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 4:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Please identify the major-league ready talen that Josh Hamilton will fetch in a trade this offseason.

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 4:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't know who's available, Tiny.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 4:31 PM CST up reply actions  

6'5" 275 lbs (I'm not buying 260) = "Tiny"

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 4:35 PM CST up reply actions  

You're also not saying any of this in my physical presence.

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 4:36 PM CST up reply actions  

No big deal, you were just blessed with "big bones."

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 4:40 PM CST up reply actions  

You're the GM. Who do you call on first?

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 4:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Nope.

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 4:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Paul Molitor used to spend a lot of time on the DL when he was younger and

also had a pretty bad coke habit in the late 70s / early 80s but somehow cobbled together an .858 OPS (with 225 hits) as a 39 year old.

Dave Parker nearly snorted up his career but cleaned up and could still contribute at age 39…same with Chili Davis.

I think the notion that Josh Hamilton is more susceptible to injury because he abused drugs when he was younger is a load of bullshit.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 10:48 AM CST reply actions  

How about the plate discipline issues?

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 10:48 AM CST up reply actions  

"Plate discipline issues"?

He has a career OBP of .366.

Try again.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 10:56 AM CST up reply actions  

Of course not.

Josey doesn’t understand the concept. He sees .366 career OBP and that is enough for him. He doesn’t care how he got there.

Josh Hamilton is similar to Young, Beltre, and Cruz in that his OBP is driven by a high batting average. Josey doesn’t understand that if these guys stop hitting at a high average, they start putting up terrible OBP’s just like Cruz did this year. It is the same problem.

by Heebs on Nov 28, 2011 11:08 AM CST up reply actions  

Haha, read the article, champ

I guess you can assume they will keep IBB’ing him.

How many IBB’s did Molitor receive late in his career?

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 11:06 AM CST up reply actions  

In 2011

Hamilton in almost the exact same number of PA had exactly one more unintentional walk than Adrian Beltre.

And Hamilton swings at everything as Adam showed in the article you didn’t read above.

Hamilton is as undisciplined as they come.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:26 AM CST up reply actions  

I expected Josh to be much more selective and hit mistakes this year

He hit a few mistakes, but at one time he was the leading swinger at first pitches, and that’s a pattern pitchers can take advantage of. It is what messed me up on his projections, thinking he would have a higher walk rate, and a little higher slugging percentage. Becoming a more selective hitter is not the easiest thing in the world for someone in their 30’s to do.

by Philar on Nov 28, 2011 2:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Also... even if you leave the drugs out of it...

He’s still very injury prone… maybe the drugs are part of that… maybe they aren’t. But regardless of WHY he is injury prone… he IS in fact injury prone.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 10:52 AM CST up reply actions  

About as bullshit as your apparent belief that Prince Fielder is definitely more susceptible to injury.

More bullshit, actually.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 11:16 AM CST up reply actions  

He believes that? Ha...

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
Beware of Trolls: b.pate, K.S.B., Panorama, Robert L. Bishop, TideNTexas

by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 11:17 AM CST up reply actions  

Josh is susceptiable to injuries because he has a track record that says so.

He misses 20+ games a season over average. Plenty of track record to show that is only going to get worse as he ages. When his hands start slowing down I think you can see Josh crater really fast.

What do voluntary mean?

The dude abides.....

by JKolar on Nov 28, 2011 11:18 AM CST up reply actions  

You have anything to back that up besides this one example?
I think the notion that Josh Hamilton is more susceptible to injury because he abused drugs when he was younger is a load of bullshit.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Molitor, Parker, Davis.

That’s three examples.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Criminally under-recd

"The fattest countries have the biggest tits" -Texas Jihad, 10-12-11

by hornedfrogs45 on Nov 29, 2011 12:34 AM CST up reply actions  

TINYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY sample size

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 12:39 PM CST up reply actions  

3 guys that did coke but also had the chance to do roids

Same with Raines.

Football can go to hell. The Rangers aren't ready for football season and neither am I.

by WyoRanger on Nov 28, 2011 3:46 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

FYI

davis (purple) vs molitor (green) vs hamilton (orange) in OPS

in bb/K:

in wOBA:

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 12:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Some people I know (friends, family, etc) are surprised at how ready I am for him to walk

You gotta do what’s best for the team.

I hate The Angels so much, it's actually cramping my style. (See RevHaloFans SBN profile page)

by Gay For Feliz on Nov 28, 2011 10:48 AM CST via mobile reply actions  

It's a tough thing to see happen

but like you said, the team is better off going forward.

by hateball on Nov 28, 2011 2:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Great article

Lays it out very nicely.

Hamilton is injury prone and undisciplined as a hitter.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 10:48 AM CST reply actions  

Even the most casual observer must be a little bit concerned by how he lusts for the first pitch.

"...out of the shadows of unprecedented success, the sun shines down upon this team waiting to thrill anew." - ghostofErikThompson

by jam0152 on Nov 28, 2011 10:52 AM CST up reply actions  

Not really.

He has a career OPS of 1182 when swinging at the first pitch.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 10:54 AM CST up reply actions  

No

He has a career OPS of 1182 when putting the first pitch in play.

That’s not the same thing as swinging at the first pitch.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 28, 2011 10:56 AM CST up reply actions  

And when he puts the first pitch in play, he has a slugging % of .768 (Barry Bonds career slug% was .607).

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:00 AM CST up reply actions  

.715

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:10 AM CST up reply actions  

How often does he swing and miss at the first pitch?

I’m not even sure that’s available anywhere… but I have a PitchFX database for 2011… I’ll be able to tell you later today.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:33 AM CST up reply actions  

B/R and Fangraphs doesn't appear to give you this

unless I’m missing something

"...out of the shadows of unprecedented success, the sun shines down upon this team waiting to thrill anew." - ghostofErikThompson

by jam0152 on Nov 28, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Anecdotally...

Bonds did not miss many pitches, and was amazingly selective in the latter half of his career. In a certain sense they Bond’s shouldn’t even be compared with Josh because they had two entirely different approaches at the plate. Bonds new what he wanted to swing at, and wouldn’t swing at it on the first pitch or in any non-two strike count if it wasn’t in his hitting zone. Josh swings at anything he sees first pitch, and a few that he apparently only thinks he sees.

by Philar on Nov 28, 2011 2:40 PM CST up reply actions  

I found the hitting stats to be very probative

Basically confirms what my eyes were telling me which is he swings at a ton of balls. He has enough strength and coordination to succeed now but if he slows a bit he’s in trouble.

This is out on a limb but Hammy, as a player, reminds me Camanitti.

Football can go to hell. The Rangers aren't ready for football season and neither am I.

by WyoRanger on Nov 28, 2011 3:52 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

All that needs to be said...

" Get your nose out of the statsheet and watch the games, geek! "

by Buddy Smokes on Nov 28, 2011 10:57 AM CST reply actions  

Not...sure...if serious.....

"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski

by GhostofSteveFoucault on Nov 28, 2011 2:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah..I remember this guy......

He’s serious…..

"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski

by GhostofSteveFoucault on Nov 28, 2011 2:31 PM CST up reply actions  

I trust stats much more than the vaunted "eye-ball test".....

"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski

by GhostofSteveFoucault on Nov 28, 2011 2:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't

But hey it takes all different types to make the world go around!

by hateball on Nov 28, 2011 2:35 PM CST up reply actions  

right types and wrong types?

Anger logic's so great I kinda forget what we saw in regular logic in the first place.

by colonialbob on Nov 28, 2011 2:42 PM CST up reply actions  

depends on whose eyes

but not ours save for maybe The Professor.

give me stats over our eyes or at least be willing to admit the biases that are inherent to the “eye-ball test” from fans like us.

by elvis1isking on Nov 28, 2011 4:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Yup. Information and facts can suck a fat one

Football can go to hell. The Rangers aren't ready for football season and neither am I.

by WyoRanger on Nov 28, 2011 4:08 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Will the team worry about alienating the fanbase though?

I know that Hamilton will probably never earn another MVP, and in the long run it’s probably best for him to go, but letting go of one of the most recognizable faces on the club may hurt a lot in the short term. I know winning heals all wounds, but this will really hurt the Rangers if they trade him or just let him walk.

The best thing for the Rangers to do would be to offer him reasonable money. I’m not that great with contract figures, but maybe the team should offer something like 4/45. If he takes it, you can get a few more years of production without too much harm. If he turns it down, you tell the fans that you tried and wish him the best elsewhere.

by Perfect Zero on Nov 28, 2011 11:02 AM CST reply actions  

I'm not sure they can get Napoli for 4/45...no way Josh signs that.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions  

Hamilton and the Rangers won't part ways if its 4/45

The problem is its more like 4/60 as a starting place I bet. For Hamilton I think you start looking at 15 a year. 3/45 is probably about the dead minimum and I think I would do that. Its just getting too much above that where you have to start saying no I don’t think its worth the risk.

What do voluntary mean?

The dude abides.....

by JKolar on Nov 28, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions  

See, I think that Simpson Money™ might allow the team to do something like that.

3/45 would be reasonable for me, and if ownership is looking to increase payroll, that could be part of it. Then again, the other problem becomes evident when Cruz, Napoli and Kinsler start going up on their contracts.

by Perfect Zero on Nov 28, 2011 11:07 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't think he would.

I think you have to start looking at 4 years, after next year, and 15 is the starting place, probably more like 17-18 as the finishing point. Just not worth it. Of course that’s what you just spent several thousand words saying.

What do voluntary mean?

The dude abides.....

by JKolar on Nov 28, 2011 11:16 AM CST up reply actions  

Alienating the fan base?

They tried their damnedest to deal Michael Young last offseason.

If the team wins, the fans will be happy.

Teams that don’t win are the ones that have to worry about keeping the fans happy by overpaying for “fan favorites.”

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 28, 2011 11:07 AM CST up reply actions  

Yep

see New England Patriots. They will cut dudes in a heartbeat, but the fans keep coming because they keep winning.

"Calmer than you are dude"

by Arlington Stadium Legend on Nov 28, 2011 11:07 AM CST up reply actions  

As a Pats fan

It’s actually a good thing to the majority of the fanbase. From what I’ve seen, and I feel the same way, the fact that the team won’t let anybody stand in between the team and winning is a boon to the franchise.

Belicheck would cut his own mother for an extra win.

"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11

by vfn on Nov 28, 2011 12:38 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure that's always true.

It’s true when they are winning. It becomes one of the complaints when they are losing.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, yeah, that's obviously a part of it.

Had the Pats nosedived last year after trading Moss, of course it would be about how Belicheck’s ego is bigger than the team and how he’s lost it.

"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11

by vfn on Nov 28, 2011 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Ryan Mallet will be inducted into the NFL HOF in 2032, obvs.

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 5:54 PM CST up reply actions  

The Pats know and embrace the tactic of getting

rid of someone one year too early rather than one year too late….Josh would fall into this category for me.

"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski

by GhostofSteveFoucault on Nov 28, 2011 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

New

York
Mets

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 11:50 AM CST up reply actions  

Hamilton's as much the face as the Face is...

and the prudent thing would be to let him walk, or trade him. I think the team’s in great shape that they could take the PR hit.

But how much money does Hamilton need? His family’s built a big house, and they like it here… If the Rangers offer something below market, does he take it?

by Ranger miker on Nov 28, 2011 11:03 AM CST reply actions  

I obviously have noooo idea what Josh is thinking

But he has to have realized at some point, how much money he’s made, and how much he should have made, at this point in his career.

I wonder if that bugs him at all, and he’ll consequently chase the big contract.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 11:08 AM CST up reply actions  

I still don't see it.

He is an addict. He doesn’t even handle his own money. If he feels his support system is strong here and the offer is reasonable, he’ll stay.

"Calmer than you are dude"

by Arlington Stadium Legend on Nov 28, 2011 11:30 AM CST up reply actions  

Houses can be sold.

He won’t take below market in his one chance to strike it rich.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 11:26 AM CST up reply actions  

He's already rich. But I get it.

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
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by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 11:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Then he'll have a nice place to live in the off-season and when he retires.

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
Beware of Trolls: b.pate, K.S.B., Panorama, Robert L. Bishop, TideNTexas

by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 11:28 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure that's true.

He’s popular with fans, but I don’t think he does as good of a job with the media as Face does.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 11:45 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, the same "media" that was torching Young in the post-season halfway thru the ALCS or Jeff Sullivan, Jeff Passan and Joe Poz?

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:53 AM CST up reply actions  

local media

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
Beware of Trolls: b.pate, K.S.B., Panorama, Robert L. Bishop, TideNTexas

by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 11:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Local media was all up his halfway thru the ALCS as well.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:59 AM CST up reply actions  

all up his ass

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:59 AM CST up reply actions  

I pretty much agree with the whole post.

Of course, I was thinking that way before hand anyway.

by Arson55 on Nov 28, 2011 11:05 AM CST reply actions  

Same here....I'm even resigned to it happening....

This team would rue the day it signed Hamilton to a deal over 4 years…..if he’s fine with signing for 3 or 4 years, fine, but he probably won’t do that.

"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski

by GhostofSteveFoucault on Nov 28, 2011 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

How would moving Hamilton to DH change the analysis?

If we assume for argument’s sake that DH’ing Hamilton would keep Hamilton healthy (and happy), would the assumed increase in games played offset the loss in defensive value (by moving to DH) and the assumed decline in bat speed and plate discipline as Hamilton ages?

by cstorm15 on Nov 28, 2011 11:06 AM CST reply actions  

Everyone is always against DH'ing

meh.

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
Beware of Trolls: b.pate, K.S.B., Panorama, Robert L. Bishop, TideNTexas

by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 11:13 AM CST up reply actions  

Hamilton has a stated distaste for DHing,

though I’m not sure how that would change as he aged. Still, the defensive penalty for switch to DH is pretty severe.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Plus he's regarded as pretty good in the field by moSt

There’s no way he moves just to save his health..they’d never be able to sell that to him. Plus his personal desire not to DH.

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
Beware of Trolls: b.pate, K.S.B., Panorama, Robert L. Bishop, TideNTexas

by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 11:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Nice work Adam

Prince anyone? That is the one way this can be a smooth transition. Can’t replace him with Kemp next year, what other options are available?

I think anything over a 3/$45 would be a huge mistake. I honestly don’t think he would even be healthy enough to make that contract worthwhile. He has spent two seasons on the dl for nearly half the season, and significant dl time in all seasons.

Expectation is the root of all heartache. — William Shakespeare

by TheDutchOven on Nov 28, 2011 11:07 AM CST reply actions  

I wonder about Prince on a 6-8 year deal with a player opt out at 4.

I think I would do that type of deal and see if you can get someone else to pay for his decline years and hope to set it up and do it again.

What do voluntary mean?

The dude abides.....

by JKolar on Nov 28, 2011 11:14 AM CST up reply actions  

The impression I get

is that JD is more concerned about pitching right now.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Certainly,

Just because we haven’t seen a lot of smoke yet doesn’t mean Yu should think JD prefers a Fielder over a pitcher.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 11:42 AM CST up reply actions  

Sneaky pet.

We’re not about sending messages. We’re about winning ballgames.-Wash, 04/03/11
Hell to the fucking no. -Wash, 10/07/11

by Rodney on Nov 28, 2011 11:45 AM CST up reply actions  

I agree

but all the pitching sucks or is RP

If he can trade for a pitcher to be excited about, then superb

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 11:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Eh,

I have more fun dreaming about getting Yu and CJ and then trading for LoMo.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 11:49 AM CST up reply actions  

So are most young hitters.

They do get traded occasionally, however…

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

I've come to grips with this

please don’t talk me back onto the Lomo bandwagon :/

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 12:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Is there any study...

On how a former drug user’s body deteriorates compared to a non-drug user at this age? I realize that would be somewhat hard to assess, especially athletically, but it would be interesting to see if any study shows a realistic time frame of Hamilton’s career span.

by CEW on Nov 28, 2011 11:18 AM CST reply actions  

Hard to do and ultimately not needed in this case.

Josh already misses games. He is in his prime years. As he ages the body will become more susceptible to injuries, thats the normal mode for every single player I’ve ever heard of.

What do voluntary mean?

The dude abides.....

by JKolar on Nov 28, 2011 11:19 AM CST up reply actions  

Nope.

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
Beware of Trolls: b.pate, K.S.B., Panorama, Robert L. Bishop, TideNTexas

by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 11:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Not that I know of.

The whole area is subject to much debate. I wouldn’t take the absence of data as proof that there is nothing to be concerned about.

I gave it a cursory look a while back and the most solid data seemed to revolve around drug abusers reduced immune system…which immediately makes me think back to Hamilton needing to be hospitalized for pneumonia or some such.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Good read AJM.

I’ll miss him, but won’t be sorry to see him leave if he decides to do so.

by lost in space on Nov 28, 2011 11:30 AM CST reply actions  

I never really rec articles.

But yes.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:32 AM CST up reply actions  

+1

Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"

Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."

by Gdawg on Nov 28, 2011 5:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Its a good article for sure

I like when Adam posts stuff like this… but this one makes me sad. Its hard to recommend an article that says we shouldn’t keep Josh.

by neon greon on Nov 28, 2011 12:01 PM CST up reply actions  

You can see that it's time for a player to move on

and still appreciate what he’s meant to the team. See: Byrd, Marlon.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

I can, yes.

The only Ranger jersey I own is CJ’s, but it is probably going to be cost prohibitive to keep him around. Great pitcher, great person. I guess I just hope Josh is one of those guys who takes a discount for the team. His injuries are worrisome, but seems to me that his are caused by himself taking risks, not a weak body. He crashes into walls and slides headfirst into home, it isn’t as if he pulls his hammy rounding first a few times a year.

by neon greon on Nov 28, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions  

But then you have to ask yourself

if he can change his style and how much his value changes from changing it.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm on mobile

I hate The Angels so much, it's actually cramping my style. (See RevHaloFans SBN profile page)

by Gay For Feliz on Nov 28, 2011 1:15 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Also...

Personally, I would offer Josh a Beltre type deal.

5/$80 with an option for a 6th year if he has enough PA.

I don’t think he’d take it, but I think you could get that level of value out of him.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:32 AM CST reply actions  

I'm not sure if this was discussed earlier, but

do you get the impression that Hamilton and his agent want him to be paid like an MVP going forward? I felt like before his MVP year, most of his talk was about how happy he was to be doing well…but after the MVP, his comments seemed to change. This may just be my interpretation.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 11:35 AM CST up reply actions  

He commented during last off season that he had to think of guys coming after him.

That the deal was for more than just him… but other players in the future and precedent it sets.

The union has talked to him and told him that he can’t take too much of a discount.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Yup

We’re not about sending messages. We’re about winning ballgames.-Wash, 04/03/11
Hell to the fucking no. -Wash, 10/07/11

by Rodney on Nov 28, 2011 11:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Fuck the Union.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 12:26 PM CST up reply actions  

/NotBlackFrancis

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 12:26 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree

His comments are backed by a certain pompousness. Ultimately, I believe he will push for a large contract because his agent is advising him to do so.

Expectation is the root of all heartache. — William Shakespeare

by TheDutchOven on Nov 28, 2011 11:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Of the situation.

"...out of the shadows of unprecedented success, the sun shines down upon this team waiting to thrill anew." - ghostofErikThompson

by jam0152 on Nov 28, 2011 11:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Yep something has changed and I think he will largely leave it uyp to his agent..

and we all know what that means. i can see him giving us a discount but not a huge one, he will want security and that means yrs not to mention this is his only time to strike it rich.

by Vicky on Nov 28, 2011 2:04 PM CST up reply actions  

I think 5 is too many

His sports hernia is more concerning than previous injuries since it is a wear and tear/body breaking down injury. Different than breaking a shoulder.

Football can go to hell. The Rangers aren't ready for football season and neither am I.

by WyoRanger on Nov 28, 2011 4:14 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

I think that's pretty much where I would top out for him

There’s a good chance you waste some money there, but its a lot better than the 100+ million that it will likely take to sign him if he doesn’t give the Rangers a discount.

Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"

Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."

by Gdawg on Nov 28, 2011 5:06 PM CST up reply actions  

So

Say the Rangers don’t get Pujols or Fielder, which seems unlikely to me, anyway.

Then say Hamilton is gone after next year.

Does that put the Rangers in a position somewhat close to “we must buy the best hitter available”? Cruz and Young will be at an age where counting on middle of the order production would be pretty foolish, and it’s not unreasonable to think Kinsler and Napoli will start to show decline from positional wear and tear, either. Plus, for the moment, the two best hitting prodpects are blocked at the major league level.

A lot can happen in a year but I feel like this could quickly become very average. Back in pre-WS days the fear I had was that though the Rangers had great positional talent in the majors and great pitching talent in the minors, by the time the latter arrived the former would be too old.

by Alan Smithee on Nov 28, 2011 11:58 AM CST via mobile reply actions  

That should read

“a very average lineup”. Phone typing.

by Alan Smithee on Nov 28, 2011 12:00 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Young will be in the middle of the order for the rest of his time here

so no use acting like that’ll change even if it is foolish.

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
Beware of Trolls: b.pate, K.S.B., Panorama, Robert L. Bishop, TideNTexas

by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Greinke should help

and we’ll be all pitching!

I like offense though.. I’m sure it’ll work out.. it always seems to on that end.

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
Beware of Trolls: b.pate, K.S.B., Panorama, Robert L. Bishop, TideNTexas

by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 12:03 PM CST up reply actions  

so adam

when are you going to stop posting without using numbers and formulas as a crutch?
/JW

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 12:28 PM CST reply actions  

Josh and first pitches in 2011
Ball		177	32.8%
Called Strike	 96	17.8%
Foul		 93	17.3%
Swinging Strike	 74	13.7%
In play, out(s)	 45	 8.3%
In play, no out	 24	 4.5%
In play, run(s)	 15	 2.8%
Intent Ball	 13	 2.4%
Pitchout	  2	 0.4%

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 12:28 PM CST reply actions  

I've got some work to do and it will take me a bit...

But later I’ll figure out his slash line when he swings at the first pitch.

Including what eventually happened when he swung and missed or fouled a ball off.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

I love Yu too

But let’s try and stay ontopic

I hate The Angels so much, it's actually cramping my style. (See RevHaloFans SBN profile page)

by Gay For Feliz on Nov 28, 2011 1:11 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

I didn't take an oath.

But I do swear a lot…

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 12:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Five years from today, AJM will make a 'toldjaso' This Day in LSB History post.

"...out of the shadows of unprecedented success, the sun shines down upon this team waiting to thrill anew." - ghostofErikThompson

by jam0152 on Nov 28, 2011 12:31 PM CST reply actions  

And we'll be wondering who the heck "________" is

I hate The Angels so much, it's actually cramping my style. (See RevHaloFans SBN profile page)

by Gay For Feliz on Nov 28, 2011 1:10 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

also

kinsler/molitor/hamilton and wOBA:

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 12:41 PM CST reply actions  

even though there is a chance he never accomplishes another historic thing ever again?

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 12:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Not trying to hate

I couldn’t have been more bummed when Juan Gon was traded

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 12:51 PM CST up reply actions  

I actually thought that was JW after a quick glance at his username

I hate The Angels so much, it's actually cramping my style. (See RevHaloFans SBN profile page)

by Gay For Feliz on Nov 28, 2011 1:08 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Did you read the post?

He had a transcendent season and probably has transcendent talent, but he is not a transcendent player.

OurDailyBears.com

by Prashanth Francis on Nov 28, 2011 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

this should be an edit at the bottom of the post.
tl;dr: Josh Hamilton had a transcendent season and probably has transcendent talent, but he is not a transcendental player.

/GB04

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 12:54 PM CST up reply actions  

He's certainly no pi or e

/math joke

Anger logic's so great I kinda forget what we saw in regular logic in the first place.

by colonialbob on Nov 28, 2011 1:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Some of them are

That one was decidedly not

Anger logic's so great I kinda forget what we saw in regular logic in the first place.

by colonialbob on Nov 28, 2011 1:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I used to have 2 awesome math shirts

and one that said, “Let’s talk about (in math signs) the derivative of e^x”

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I guess that is TBD at this point. 2010 was transcendent, the HR Derby was transcendent.

I think there will be many more moments where he will do something amazing. The ceiling is so high for how good he can be when healthy.

by James Welch on Nov 28, 2011 11:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Are you the one that put up the video of your kid crying when there was talk of Young being traded?

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
Beware of Trolls: b.pate, K.S.B., Panorama, Robert L. Bishop, TideNTexas

by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 3:53 PM CST up reply actions  

No, but my youngest would have cried for sure.

I guess that is what I get for making my sons watch every Rangers game since they were born.

by James Welch on Nov 28, 2011 11:39 PM CST up reply actions  

X

"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel

by TXHC on Nov 28, 2011 8:43 PM CST up reply actions  

AJM, this is one of your best posts ever IMHO.

Great job on the logic, stats and thoughtful point of view.

You can only be young once but can be immature forever!

by Bigfan16 on Nov 28, 2011 1:02 PM CST reply actions  

Great post...

I wish there was some good discussion about it here. Actually, I’m sure there probably is a little between all the trolling/stupidity. I’m just not sure it’s worth sifting through to find.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Nov 28, 2011 1:03 PM CST reply actions  

you're not missing anything

AJM said all that needed to be said on the subject in the post itself.

NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development

Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM

by shock00 on Nov 28, 2011 1:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, but it's a good way for him to shoehorn an insult at me.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 1:11 PM CST up reply actions  

i'm not gonna get into anything w/ you today.

NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development

Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM

by shock00 on Nov 28, 2011 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

injuries

we simply have to find more time for him at DH if we are to sign him to any sort of extension. the broken arm in’11 and the rib cage injury in ‘09 i can almost ignore. it’s the nagging wear and tear injuries and most significantly the knee pain he has each season are of more concern, imo. i don’t think he goes full rusty greer on us though. not until they start fusing vertebrae….

by SteveP on Nov 28, 2011 1:09 PM CST reply actions  

That's not that many suitors.

I’d really like to not have Prince on the Mariners.

Nationals or Cubs sounds much better to me.

Or Rangers… I’m fine with Rangers.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 1:39 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd be worried about the Cubs more

but I just don’t see Theo giving Prince a huge contract when the Cubs aren’t going to be that good for another 3 years (at least).

Anger logic's so great I kinda forget what we saw in regular logic in the first place.

by colonialbob on Nov 28, 2011 1:41 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't give a shit about the Cubs getting better though.

I don’t want to face Fielder in a Mariner uniform 18 times a year for the next 7 years.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 1:42 PM CST up reply actions  

No I get that completely

I meant I’d worry about the Cubs in terms of competing with them to sign Fielder. I don’t care about how good they are either.

Anger logic's so great I kinda forget what we saw in regular logic in the first place.

by colonialbob on Nov 28, 2011 1:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, but I don't think the Rangers are legitimately pursuing him.

I would be rather shocked if we signed him.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd be surprised, but I'm starting to come around on the reasoning, actually.

Especially since we can’t spend a ton on international signings now

Anger logic's so great I kinda forget what we saw in regular logic in the first place.

by colonialbob on Nov 28, 2011 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

You really wouldn't face him

you’d IBB him to face Justin Smoak 5 times a game.

"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11

by vfn on Nov 28, 2011 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

The more I think about the new CBA

the more I am starting to come around to the Prince talks, as long as we’re not talking about a 180-200 million dollar contract.

Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"

Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."

by Gdawg on Nov 28, 2011 5:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Fantastic gif

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 4:11 PM CST up reply actions  

It really is.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 4:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I've got to stop reading LSB in the campus computer labs.

I see stuff like this, and I burst out laughing. It’s embarrassing.

I can't stand people who are intolerant of other people's taste in music or people who like Nickelback.

by jonas m. on Nov 28, 2011 5:20 PM CST up reply actions  

I love Hamilton, and I think my view on the matter is in line with a lot of people here.

He is, when healthy, an absolutely fantastic ball player. Not many players can affect the game in as many ways as he can. Having said that, he is also one of the more maddening players at the plate that the Rangers have. He has such natural ability that he should be the hardest out on the team. The stats listed in the original post are extremely worrisome, and one of the reasons why he isn’t as dangerous as he could be.

I believe the Rangers should decide, first, whether or not the injury risk is too great to offer him a long-term contract. Secondly, does he project as a player that will age gracefully enough to be worth the type of contract he’ll probably get. (My guess is no, he won’t.) Finally, will a contract given to him jeopardize the Rangers ability to pay other players, or go after pieces to help the team in the future. If it does, then they should let him walk. I don’t believe a sense of “loyalty” should be shown to any player or organization. The Rangers should do everything they can to ensure they can put the best product on the field, while Josh should do everything he can to ensure the well-being of his family for the rest of their lives.

tl;dr

Reader’s Digest Version: I trust in JD, and I think he will do the correct thing, regardless of what the fans or papers want. I think he will be gone after 2012.

I think we're going innnnnnn.

by TTWBG on Nov 28, 2011 1:36 PM CST reply actions  

TL;DR !!!

NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development

Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM

by shock00 on Nov 28, 2011 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

heh.

I think we're going innnnnnn.

by TTWBG on Nov 28, 2011 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

I got 3 sentences into this

and felt I knew what the rest of it was going to say.

I can't stand people who are intolerant of other people's taste in music or people who like Nickelback.

by jonas m. on Nov 28, 2011 5:21 PM CST up reply actions  

per EG
Johnny Narron hired as brewers ML hitting coach

"God dammit TAG I swear to God if you keep this "It was a close play" shit up all night I will send you cookies made from my own shit" -River Fenix 8/26/2011

"this is a big reason I decided not to convert to Islam now if it was 72 skanks? Different story, my friend" Bob Loblaw 9/2/2011

by I am Neftali Feliz on Nov 28, 2011 2:12 PM CST reply actions  

this was also josh hamiltons shadow.

does that mean he was the guy that followed him everywhere for support?

"God dammit TAG I swear to God if you keep this "It was a close play" shit up all night I will send you cookies made from my own shit" -River Fenix 8/26/2011

"this is a big reason I decided not to convert to Islam now if it was 72 skanks? Different story, my friend" Bob Loblaw 9/2/2011

by I am Neftali Feliz on Nov 28, 2011 2:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Was it he or the other Narron brother

who was Hamilton’s traveling partner?

"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11

by vfn on Nov 28, 2011 2:13 PM CST up reply actions  

according to grant.. it was hamiltons heterosexual life mate

"God dammit TAG I swear to God if you keep this "It was a close play" shit up all night I will send you cookies made from my own shit" -River Fenix 8/26/2011

"this is a big reason I decided not to convert to Islam now if it was 72 skanks? Different story, my friend" Bob Loblaw 9/2/2011

by I am Neftali Feliz on Nov 28, 2011 2:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Could be an interesting development. It's sure weird that the Rangers would let Narron go given his duties as Hamilton's handler.

Greinke for Hamilton, straight up. Which team gets the better end of that deal?

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Rangers

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
Beware of Trolls: b.pate, K.S.B., Panorama, Robert L. Bishop, TideNTexas

by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 3:55 PM CST up reply actions  

This is already listed on Brewer's page.

http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/team/coaches.jsp?c_id=mil

If Narron is truly leaving without Hamilton in tow, good for him. Otherwise, I will gladly take Greinke over Hamilton going into next year.

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 2:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm down

Trade him this offseason if we sign a big bat.

by RobGordon on Nov 28, 2011 2:14 PM CST reply actions  

The takeaway:

Pudge is CF in 2013. Let Josh walk.

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Nov 28, 2011 2:17 PM CST reply actions  

Great post AJM and as much as I would miss Josh in the lineup, I trust this FO...

I would see why the Rangers would make the hard decision to let him go but as others have stated, I’m worried about our future productivity when it comes to offense.

Cruz is up in 2013, ditto Kinsler, Naps and Josh could be gone after next year. Who do we have coming up in our minors that can possible replace that or come close, and from what I hear the FA market won’t have that kind of firepower, Kemp has been locked up. I’m sure we can lock up one or two of the above but that still leaves a huge deficit.

I guess, while I’m NOT on the Fielder bandwagon I’m starting to wonder if the Ranger could be possibly thinking that way. And if they do that whether there could be some friction in the lockeroom this yr because they arent stupid, they would most likely know this would mean Josh isnt coming back.

Sigh I don’t know, winning will cure mostly everything though but you’re right there will be some backlash, face maybe the face of this franchise but Josh is far away the most popular. The Rangers have better have their PR ducks in a row when/if this happens, most of us would understand. Even my offline bb fan brother has mentioned similar things in baseball discussions.

by Vicky on Nov 28, 2011 2:20 PM CST reply actions  

Trust in the FO is required after 2 AL championships.

AJM does a great job pointed out the flaws of keeping everyone and expecting the same or better results. To plan on things to stay the same is to plan on failing.
I feel for JD and the front office as staying at the top is a different challenge than getting to the top. They are facing some very tough questions that have to be answered. I am hoping that the FO makes more positive moves (Teixiera trade, Volquez/Hamilton trade and Lewis FA signing) than negative moves (Danks trade, Eaton trade and Webb FA signing).
The front office has to make a lot of decisions and not all of them are going to have positive outcomes. I trust in the FO will continue the trend of more good than bad decisions.

You can only be young once but can be immature forever!

by Bigfan16 on Nov 28, 2011 3:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Thing is those bad moves

came in the beginning. I trust JD way more now than I ever did. I was calling for him to go a couple of yrs ago.

by hateball on Nov 28, 2011 3:08 PM CST up reply actions  

I was right there with you

screaming to get rid of JD early on, He has won me over !

You can only be young once but can be immature forever!

by Bigfan16 on Nov 28, 2011 3:13 PM CST up reply actions  

It is not a huge negative but was a gamble that did not pay off.

How you doing today?

You can only be young once but can be immature forever!

by Bigfan16 on Nov 28, 2011 3:13 PM CST up reply actions  

busy as hell

our main printer is down at work and so everyone was forwarding stuff to me to print off for them since I have a printer at my computer.

Then im dealing with trying to get companies to come out and quote me on replacing my heating/ac unit which went out last night.

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 3:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Sounds like another day in paradise...;)

I am trying to figure out who to lay-off if our sales do not pick up. Some days I just hate my job.

Good luck with the AC/Heater and printer problems.

You can only be young once but can be immature forever!

by Bigfan16 on Nov 28, 2011 3:18 PM CST up reply actions  

thanks

yeah got a guy here at my house now. cant wait to see how much this is gonna cost

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 3:27 PM CST up reply actions  

.
jcrasnick Jerry Crasnick
#Rangers checked on Broxton before signing Joe Nathan, & #Rockies discussed him as an option if they trade Huston Street.

by octoberty on Nov 28, 2011 2:42 PM CST reply actions  

Broxton is a head case.

I don’t want him.

"Either we need to re-calibrate our rectangle, or Alfonzo Marquez is not having a good night." - Josh Lewin

by utlonghorn24 on Nov 28, 2011 5:33 PM CST up reply actions  

The one utlonghorn24 just made.

You heard it hear first.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 5:34 PM CST up reply actions  

*here

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 5:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Not to mention his shoulder might be fucked.

"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel

by TXHC on Nov 28, 2011 8:50 PM CST up reply actions  

easy now

after 2008 the team wanted to sign him long term and i said there was no need. let him play out and since he had a few years left. i took a beating on that i think

Bachman/Beck 2012
I wish I were the 1%

by gossamer on Nov 28, 2011 2:55 PM CST reply actions  

lots said that back then

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
Beware of Trolls: b.pate, K.S.B., Panorama, Robert L. Bishop, TideNTexas

by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 3:57 PM CST up reply actions  

just have to take my word

i don’t even think i could find it if i looked.

Bachman/Beck 2012
I wish I were the 1%

by gossamer on Nov 28, 2011 4:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Fair enough

I’m never for extending older players early. I don’t remember feeling like I was in the minority back then.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 4:41 PM CST up reply actions  

OK. I'm claiming it. No longer a what-if, no longer a half-chuckle quasi-joke.

Rangers are going to acquire Greinke for Hamilton. They have had a long running interest in Greinke.

It’s going down.

The money makes sense for both sides. The need makes sense for both sides, if the Rangers are not sold on Hamilton long term (and I have no idea if they are or aren’t).

This might be as foolish of a post as I will put on LSB, but I just feel it, and I am excited. I know Melvin recently said he would explore an extension with Greinke. Maybe that conversation ended quickly.

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 3:04 PM CST reply actions  

Who plays LF?

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 3:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Murphy?

Sign a Francouer type platoon partner

Sign Fielder which offsets the offensive loss and then you can let greinke walk after 2012 and replace him in the rotation with NeRa/Perez

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 3:16 PM CST up reply actions  

I know you and I both want them to (and I have a sneaking suspicion that the Rangers want to, too)

But I don’t think they’re going to sign Fielder. Even if it makes sense.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 3:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Hey bigsteve...

While I douibt there is another texiera for the pick of a good farm system deal to be made. I still wonder what Hamilton could fetch in terms of prospects right now. Any ideas?

You can only be young once but can be immature forever!

by Bigfan16 on Nov 28, 2011 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

its really tough to guess at

I actually like the idea of a Greinke/Hamilton swap

MIL needs to replace Fielders production and have enough pitching (relatively speaking) to afford to lose Greinke.

The Rangers could replace Hamiltons production with Fielder, shore up the rotation, and if Greinke is ok with a extension then we are set for a long time

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 3:30 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't see the Rangers replacing Hamilton this offseason.

I see a lineup of
Kinsler
Andrus
Beltre
Young
Napoli
Cruz
Murphy/platoon
Moreland
Gentry/platoon (Borbon?)

The argument about Milwaukee having enough pitching depth would apply to Rangers’ offense.

However, I’m also not anywhere capable of thinking like a ninja, and I would assume that JD would find a better LF replacement than I can imagine through a trade of a middle-rotation starter from the “excess” created by Greinke, Holland, Harrison, Colby, Ogando, Feliz.

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 3:35 PM CST up reply actions  

If we signed Fielder, I would be ok with that trade.

Though I don’t want to move Feliz back to the bullpen after having just told him he would start.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 3:36 PM CST up reply actions  

I am hating work right now.

It keeps me from posting here and I prefer to be posting.

You can only be young once but can be immature forever!

by Bigfan16 on Nov 28, 2011 4:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Murphy, DeJusus platoon would work. Some type of platoon arrangement most likely.

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 3:31 PM CST up reply actions  

sad penis

"...out of the shadows of unprecedented success, the sun shines down upon this team waiting to thrill anew." - ghostofErikThompson

by jam0152 on Nov 28, 2011 3:33 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm sure JD would come up with a better solution.

That’s all I could think of without spending a good chunk of time digging and digging around for obscure trade possibilities.

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 3:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Beltran is available.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 3:41 PM CST up reply actions  

I wouldn't give him 3 years

which is what he’s probably going to be looking for. Unless the money’s right, the max I would go would be a 2 year deal with a team option for the 3rd year, but there’s probably no way he’d take that

Dallas Stars Examiner
used to be under name hinduplaya

by MayurP on Nov 28, 2011 8:58 PM CST up reply actions  

gentry!

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 3:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Who plays in center?

I love Gentry in center. Not so much in LF, especially as an every-day LF’er.

by Akalhar on Nov 28, 2011 4:14 PM CST up reply actions  

If you're going to play Gentry somewhere, play him in CF.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 4:15 PM CST up reply actions  

yep

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 4:17 PM CST up reply actions  

/fap

"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel

by TXHC on Nov 28, 2011 8:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Ogando

I can't stand people who are intolerant of other people's taste in music or people who like Nickelback.

by jonas m. on Nov 28, 2011 5:23 PM CST up reply actions  

I like the boldness of your comment.

You can only be young once but can be immature forever!

by Bigfan16 on Nov 28, 2011 3:16 PM CST up reply actions  

nah they would let him walk then to trade him, now that would be a PR nightmare..

But forget that who replaces him, this team is still a WR contender, we’re going for it next year.

But its interesting though.

by Vicky on Nov 28, 2011 3:16 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think this would be all that much of a PR nightmare, especially with Greinke coming back.

But, it ain’t happenin’ even though I’m saying it is.

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 3:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Dammit!
Evan_P_Grant Evan Grant
Rangers and Hamilton have already talked about possibility of Narron leaving; will meet again to discuss support system for 2012.

Unless… They mean his new support system in Milwaukee.

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 3:39 PM CST up reply actions  

If Hamilton has to leave

It might as well be to an NL team.

by Travis93 on Nov 28, 2011 3:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Greinke is sort of a cocksucker, no?

I mean, I’d love to have him, but I think he’d quickly become my least favorite Ranger.

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 4:15 PM CST up reply actions  

He's asocial.

I’ve never heard about just being a jerk, though.

by AsDevilsRun on Nov 28, 2011 4:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Besides. It wouldn't really make that much sense for the Brewers who need to get back

players with controllable years, it would seem.

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 3:57 PM CST up reply actions  

I wouldn't mind that trade

couple with, say, a Beltran signing

I just think it’s too rare for teams to trade superstar-for-superstar. Just doesn’t happen.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 4:13 PM CST up reply actions  

One last gasp before Marcum and Hamilton leave in FA?

With the new rule about no draft pick compensation unless a guy is on your roster all year they figure to be one of the teams affected most by it given that greinke and Marcum are FAs at the end of the year and would be very attractive trade targets at midseason under the old rules

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 4:19 PM CST up reply actions  

I was thinking maybe Hamilton would be easier to extend (cheaper that is) than either

Greinke or Fielder.

I still think the smart way to trade Greinke (who, as you point out, should be traded before the season so the new team gets all of the benefits) is to get multiple controllable players, just at least one higher upside player, which would be one more than the Royals got.

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 4:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Narron... Kicking the dead horse that is my dream...
“I think Josh has a good support system in place there now. I think he will be fine. Josh knows he can call me if ever he feels the need to and I’ll be there for him. It’s time for him to go on his own path and for me to go on my own path.”

Link to article

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 4:25 PM CST up reply actions  

It's a coy play. Melvin and JD have an agreement in place the second JD finds a replacement.

The dream lives!

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 4:39 PM CST up reply actions  

In the days to come

Evan Grant tweets Melvin and Hamilton had lunch together

TR discusses a rumor that Greinke bought a Dallas house last week.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 4:42 PM CST up reply actions  

But when do we get to track the planes?

"There's no money in triples!" -- C.J. Wilson, 2010

by Oddibee on Nov 28, 2011 5:10 PM CST up reply actions  

That was so fun. I look forward to doing it again.

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 5:33 PM CST up reply actions  

bigsteve is already on it.

"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel

by TXHC on Nov 28, 2011 8:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks dude. That perked up my day.

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 5:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Well I already did so

still Idk if we’ll see Hamilton traded even though it makes sense to do so.

"Look if you want a journalist hire a UT grad. If you want a doctor you pick a Baylor grad. If you need a vet you see an Aggie grad. And if you need a pizza you call a Tech grad." -BUBacker
Beware of Trolls: b.pate, K.S.B., Panorama, Robert L. Bishop, TideNTexas

by Mike E on Nov 28, 2011 3:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Fielder

Correct me if I’m wrong (especially those of you who have been around LSB much longer than I), but is Fielder the first potential FA acquisition for which there seems to be an overwhelming consensus in favor on this board?

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 3:31 PM CST reply actions  

And before the "depends on the price" chorus begins anew...

The consensus seems to be built around the assumption that it’ll take somewhere in between 7/180 and 8/200 to get the deal done.

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 3:32 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not in favor of Fielder, but there is a vocal group around here that is.

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 3:36 PM CST up reply actions  

I like the idea of having the DH position filled with flexibility.

Fielder is a wreck in the field already.

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 3:41 PM CST up reply actions  

He'd be the DH in 2014...the year after Young is done.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 4:21 PM CST up reply actions  

No

He’ll be able to play 1B until hes at least 32 or 33

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 4:30 PM CST up reply actions  

He's a terrible 1B right now.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 4:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Who cares

Its probably the least important defensive position

We let Michael Young play there for christs sake

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 4:32 PM CST up reply actions  

hmmm

since 09 he has a 2.9 UZR/150
he has 97 OOZ plays (so its not like he is a statue) -
FYI young had 4 this year
hes a -15 in DRS (young was -5 this year)

is he good? no

is he the worst 1b in baseball? no

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 28, 2011 5:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, at least two, while FACE is here.

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 4:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I wouldn't say there is an overwhelming consensus at that price.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 3:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Someone should do a fucking poll for fuck's sake. Fuck.

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 3:40 PM CST up reply actions  

You need to read Rakoff's mem. op. denying the SEC/Citi consent judgment.

Wow.

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 3:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Did that just come down?

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 3:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep.

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/SECCITI11282011.pdf

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 3:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Can someone explain this in English?

"The fattest countries have the biggest tits" -Texas Jihad, 10-12-11

by hornedfrogs45 on Nov 28, 2011 4:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Judge Rakoff

Doesn’t like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs

by JDT217 on Nov 28, 2011 4:05 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't want him at 7/180.

I suspect he weighs more than the 275 he’s listed at and he has never, ever been able to keep weight off when he needed to when he was young…it doesn’t get easier after you turn 30.

His knees are going to be shot from carrying that much lard by his early 30s and he can’t play defense. No, no, no.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 3:41 PM CST up reply actions  

but you get like 5 yrs before he starts to break down

NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development

Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM

by shock00 on Nov 28, 2011 3:46 PM CST up reply actions  

What would you sign him for?

I don’t want him at 7/180 either.

I’d go 7/144 as a max and and player out clause after 3 years that I pray he takes.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 3:49 PM CST up reply actions  

but he probably won't opt out

at that amount.

There’s a better chance he does at Match’s amount – especially if he has 3 really, really good years (which he probaby will in our ballpark).

by elvis1isking on Nov 28, 2011 4:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure, I just don't think that gets him signed

If JD gets him for 7/144 with a 3 yr opt out, I will cry of happiness.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 4:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Me too.

I think that’s VERY unlikely.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 4:45 PM CST up reply actions  

me either

but I hate the 7 or 8 year contract.

by elvis1isking on Nov 28, 2011 4:46 PM CST up reply actions  

7 for 140ish seems reasonable

Football can go to hell. The Rangers aren't ready for football season and neither am I.

by WyoRanger on Nov 28, 2011 4:29 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

isn't he a semi-vegetarian now?

that could help with the weight, mayhaps.

I can't stand people who are intolerant of other people's taste in music or people who like Nickelback.

by jonas m. on Nov 28, 2011 5:25 PM CST up reply actions  

He went to this several years ago.

It hasn’t helped his weight. He is who he is.

by Akalhar on Nov 28, 2011 7:25 PM CST up reply actions  

sweet potato pie is vegetarian

Some see a glass half empty, some a glass half full. I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be. - George Carlin

by t ball on Nov 28, 2011 7:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Hmm I dont think everybody is in favor..

I’m starting to come around to it, but the price scares me and he’s not a defensive wiz at 1st either to make me overlook it.

by Vicky on Nov 28, 2011 3:36 PM CST up reply actions  

No consensus now

I really want him even at 7 for 180. He’s young, never injured and would kill in that park. The very very vocal minority bitches about his weight which has never caused him problems in the past.

Football can go to hell. The Rangers aren't ready for football season and neither am I.

by WyoRanger on Nov 28, 2011 4:27 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

BTW, I agree with AJM that the Rangers should trade Hamilton this offseason.

As if that wasn’t obvious enough from my dream of seeing a Greinke-Hamilton swap dashed to pieces moments after I had revived the thought of Greinke as a Ranger.

I don’t really know how it could be possible to trade him, though, considering the support system the new team would need to put in place and the time it would take for that to get developed well.

Damn, the Brewers really need Hamilton.

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 4:28 PM CST reply actions  

My impression is that AJM wants to keep Hamiliton this year and let him go for draft picks.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 4:36 PM CST up reply actions  

heh. Well, I guess I should've read the whole thing.

tl;dr

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 4:39 PM CST up reply actions  

That's what I would do.

I think the Major League production you get from Hamilton in 2012 is unlikely to be replaced through any trade unless it’s a Hamilton for Greinke (which I’m all for).

The team is going to contend (again) in 2012 and I want that 2012 production from Josh. Whatever prospects we got are not likely to give us value in 2012 and while they would be more ML ready than two first rounders… I’d rather have the two first rounders.

Because if we do let Josh walk… that’s $17m of salary we can use to get someone else. It’s not like that money is going back in the owners pockets.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 4:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Who do you sign in 2013 to replace Josh?

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 4:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Not sure who's available.

Maybe you trade for someone who has a high salary.

Everyone things in motion.

All goes in the Roster Construction Blender.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 4:44 PM CST up reply actions  

What speed do you set that bad boy to?

Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"

Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."

by Gdawg on Nov 28, 2011 4:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Plus

players randomly/unexpectedly become available for trade.

Did anybody at the start of the year expect Ubaldo to be made available (and then traded?)

i tell the truth; i lie a lot

by jonthefon on Nov 28, 2011 4:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Joey Votto will be one year away from FA after 2012.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 4:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Like the stop gap Adrian Gonzalez was for Boston?

Oh wait… they insisted on being able to extend before the did the trade (or at least be satisfied it would happen)

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 4:50 PM CST up reply actions  

OK

So you can pay big money to Votto instead of Prince?

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 4:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Prince will be 2 years younger

won’t require prospects

And we’d get him this year, to combine with Hamilton, et al

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 4:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Votto will be 30

Don’t want to give him an 8/9 year deal that he’d command.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 4:54 PM CST up reply actions  

He kinda sucked this year

And cost a assload in trade to get

Not a great example of how to work this situation

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 4:48 PM CST up reply actions  

point was anyone can come up on the trade block

CLE paid a shitload in terms of prospects for a mediocre player who sucked even more after being traded for

Are you saying that should be what we bet on happening down the road with the rangers?

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 4:54 PM CST up reply actions  

He's saying players unexpectedly become available

Use Dan Haren as an example, if it makes you feel better

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 4:55 PM CST up reply actions  

You'd rather trade Josh for prospects...

And hope they actually turn into good ML talent?

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 4:59 PM CST up reply actions  

No not at all

I think my stance on this whole deal is well known

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 5:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure it is...

My point is that I’d rather have Josh’s production in 2012 and then use the freed up money else where in 2013. I don’t know where… but I’m sure they’ll figure out a way to get talent, either a FA or trade.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 5:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Than trade Josh for prospects.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 5:09 PM CST up reply actions  

No, I want to sign him to an extension.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 5:16 PM CST up reply actions  

What's your max offer on Prince Fielder.

Surely there’s some number you’d sign him for… it can be unrealistic.

For example… if he was willing to accept 1 year for $5m you’d do that right?

So what would your max offer be on a hitter like him with “big bones”?

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 5:18 PM CST up reply actions  

I look at Prince as an elite DH...5/55 or so.

He’s going to get $ 100 million more than that so I wouldn’t sign him.

Look at his dad…and Prince has much bigger bones than his dad had when he was 27. His dad blew up in his early 30s.

Now if you wanna talk about Pujols, that’s a game-changer.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 5:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Really?

I think Ortiz ends up around 2/32 or 3/45 at most.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 5:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, I suppose I went overboard

with “probably” but I think it’s quite possible – at least I personally see a bidding war which pushes him around that range.

As for what I think he “should” get? Yeah, probably around what you set…which would still make 5/55 bizarre going on the assumption that he’s just an “elite DH”.

i tell the truth; i lie a lot

by jonthefon on Nov 28, 2011 5:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Well... on the point to Cecil

He was good through 32… and Prince is better and I think he could go till 34 like Mo Vaughn did. 35 was when Vaughn lost it and 33 was when Cecil did.

What’s your max offer on Pujols?

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 5:33 PM CST up reply actions  

How much do you think Pujols weighs?

Also, how often was Cecil injured compared to Prince at this point in his career?

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 5:41 PM CST up reply actions  

elite DH?

using your shitty logic, i think pujols is going to start sucking. his dad didnt even make the pros! that is the only way we can know how well he will do!

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Nov 29, 2011 7:34 AM CST up reply actions  

I would rather sign Prince Fielder right now

Use last years playoff revenue to pay Josh’s 2012 salary, then let Josh walk and get whatever the new rules dictate

if someone comes up for trade in 2013 then we have the luxury of not being desperate to make a deal because Prince has essentially replaced Hamilton

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 5:05 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't understand why you are insistent

that the playoff revenue be earmarked for Hamilton’s salary? It’s all in the same bucket, right? Why does it matter

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 5:07 PM CST up reply actions  

You cant expect playoff revenue

At least the Rangers cant

Whatever they made last year is extra money for this year so what better way to allocate it than on a one year deal which Hamilton essentially is

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 5:31 PM CST up reply actions  

What's the difference between that

and the Rangers putting the $$ into a bank account, and then stating that they are spending $X on payroll next year?

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 5:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Nothing

just that you cant rely on that money from year to year

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 5:50 PM CST up reply actions  

... what?

Anger logic's so great I kinda forget what we saw in regular logic in the first place.

by colonialbob on Nov 28, 2011 7:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I want to sign Prince too.

But I don’t think it’s going to happen.

If we don’t sign Prince does that change what we should do with Josh?

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 5:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Nope

But our team’s better :)

It’s likely to not happen, because JD is shrewd, and not one to outbid at all costs on a player.

I think there’s a chance, though, because I don’t think he’ll have to do this for Prince. The market seems timid for him.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 5:13 PM CST up reply actions  

No

if you dont sign Prince you dont panic and commit to Josh longer than you were comfortable with before

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 5:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Not saying

to hope for the unexpected.

But that should temper the idea that everything absolutely needs to be put in place beforehand

i tell the truth; i lie a lot

by jonthefon on Nov 28, 2011 5:00 PM CST up reply actions  

He's irreplaceable. You reshape the team when you move Hamilton.

Still. I think it’s been a while since FACE was asked to change positions.

He could play LF, don’t you think?

Ah, that’s the ticket. Trade Hamilton, Move FACE to LF, Sign Fielder to DH. Under those circumstances — keeping both Fielder and FACE out of the infield — I like the Fielder idea.

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 4:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Asking Face to move = Career year from Face

Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"

Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."

by Gdawg on Nov 28, 2011 4:46 PM CST up reply actions  

See. It makes sense all around.

Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.

by rooster on Nov 28, 2011 4:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Olt.

"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz

by AceJC on Nov 28, 2011 10:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes--this is the obvious move, imo

Play your hearts out for a championship in 2012.

Avoid giving out a potentially crippling contract.

Play your hearts out for a championship in 2013 and beyond.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 4:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Josh's situation is unique

He’s the only stud bat that PROBABLY NOBODY would sign to a long term contract for big $ because in his issues injuries and addiction problems, plus his issues limit the teams he’d probably sign with do to lifestyle issues.

I’m big on Fielder simply because I don’t have any faith that Josh and Nelly will sign here when they become FAs. THeir health is just too much in question. That frees up a lot of $ in later years to be able toafford FIelder.

Baseball's hard, guys. I mean, it really is. You can love it but, believe me, it don't always love you back. It's kind of like dating a German chick, you know?

by Buttermaker on Nov 28, 2011 5:12 PM CST reply actions  

Somebody will give him the years and money he wants

All it takes is 1

Next year when the Yankees and Red Sox will be FA bidders he will get a big long deal

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 5:33 PM CST up reply actions  

I think it will be from some team that nobody expects.

"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel

by TXHC on Nov 28, 2011 8:56 PM CST up reply actions  

This might be your best peice in a long time, AJM. Well done.

I got a broken brain
The doctor’s saying that I’m overpaid

by LSJ on Nov 28, 2011 7:14 PM CST reply actions  

.
Rotoworld_BB Rotoworld Baseball
Astros get permission to interview Friedman dlvr.it/y6fLS

by octoberty on Nov 28, 2011 7:42 PM CST reply actions  

interesting

Some see a glass half empty, some a glass half full. I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be. - George Carlin

by t ball on Nov 28, 2011 7:55 PM CST up reply actions  

If I were a GM

Houston would be a pretty fun place to go. Decent budget, big market, new owner.

Also, no big contracts—like a fresh start.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 8:10 PM CST up reply actions  

The hugest brick ever.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 28, 2011 8:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Im starting to think I could see Fielder sign only a 4 or 5 year deal or at least have a opt out after 4 or 5 years

Mark Teixeiras contract is up after 2016 so the Yanks will be back on the market for a 1B in 4 or 5 years.

if I were the rangers I would offer him a 8 year deal worth 180 million (same as Mark Teixeira) but structure it like this:

2012-2015: 25 mil each
opt out clause after 2015
2016: 23 mil
opt out clause after 2016
2017:20 mil
2018:19 mil
2019:18 mil

Gives him the big first 4 years which are the prime of his career and then he can opt out if he chooses at which time the Rangers could say “bye” and likely have gotten full value out of the deal. If something happens in 2015 and he got hurt and missed the year he could have a bounceback 2016 and then opt out if he wanted. With the decreasing salaries the last three years it lessens whatever decline he will have and by that time he may only need to be a 2.5-3 WAR player to be worth his deal.

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 8:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Other than front loading it and the total dollars I'm interested.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 8:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Well they kinda work together though

I dont think you’ll be able to sign him to a short term deal for 20 mil per. When you get into the shorter length deals more teams will become interested and the money will go up.

You offer the long term deal at the same level Teixeira got and he probably takes it. Front load it which will help spur him to opt out. If after 4 years he is 32 and has just had 4 really good years he will look at his deal and see he has 4 years and 80 million left. He will likely think he can get better than that in FA and opt out.

If you backload a deal, which i understand with the tv money coming in a few years, he could see his deal and depending on the FA landscape could feel content with it and you are stuck with the entire deal.

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 8:41 PM CST up reply actions  

I like that.

"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel

by TXHC on Nov 28, 2011 8:58 PM CST up reply actions  

won't want* him

do you disagree?

I see the logic, but few of us have real concerns about Prince over the next 3-4 years. If you put the opt-out early enough in the contract, I think it’s advantageous.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 10:53 PM CST up reply actions  

No

It is never advantageous for the team.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 28, 2011 10:57 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't buy that

If the Rangers are confident in his first 4 years, but are terrified about the last 4 years of the contract….

Wouldn’t they prefer Prince to opt out? Doesn’t it work to their advantage if they prefer to not carry that contract into the future?

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 10:59 PM CST up reply actions  

No

There are two scenarios.

Either Fielder is able to get more than what remains on his contract on the open market and opts out, or he can’t get that much and doesn’t opt out.

Obviously, #2 is a big loss for the team.

#1, however, is also a loss for the team. If he can get more on the open market than he’s due on his contract, then the contract has surplus value for the team, and thus the team loses value when he opts out.

Either way, the team is worse off.

Rather than doing an opt-out clause, deal Fielder after year 4. If he could really get more money as a free agent than he has due on his contract, not only will he be easy to move, but he’d bring a significant return as well.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 28, 2011 11:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Shit, you're right.

I will say this isn’t a transparent market, so there’s a chance Prince overvalues himself (he and his agent don’t have long after the season to decide whether to opt out).

If I’m really stretching for an argument, I’d say there’s a scenario where Prince is not worth his salary per year, but knows he can get a longer contract and more guaranteed on the market. For instance, Prince has 4/80left on his contract, but the league only deems him a 18M per year player going forward. He still could get a 6/108 contract at age 32.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 11:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Also,

say his opt out corresponds with the Yankees wanting to sign him, and Prince and his agent know this.

If they are the only team willing to trade for that, you won’t get any return. He opts out if he’s confident there is a single team out there willing to sign him for more.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 11:20 PM CST up reply actions  

But if you have the same deal and trade him instead...

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:20 PM CST up reply actions  

BTW... I would support an opt out clause

If it meant we paid him less money than his current market value in the first four years.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Under bigsteve's scenario you're paying him $25 million/year

That’s not below market value.

Conceptually, though, sure…the right to opt out of a deal has value to a player, and thus a player should be willing to take less money prior to the opt-out clause in exchange for getting the opt-out clause as part of the deal.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 28, 2011 11:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah that's what I didn't like about bigsteve's deal.

It paid him full market value of $180m guaranteed and front loaded it make it more expensive from a time/money/value standpoint.

If he was willing to back load it and take like $150m or less… then I’d be more interested.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:24 PM CST up reply actions  

If he's only owed less than his market value that the Yankees might sign him for

Then you could trade him to the Yankees and get value in return rather than letting him opt out and getting nothing.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Whom are the Yankees bidding against in this scenario?

It’s not really his “market value”—just what the rich MFY are willing to shell out.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 11:24 PM CST up reply actions  

If they aren't bidding against anyone...

Why are they willing to pay him more money as a FA than the lesser value of his current contract?

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Completely different when you're talking about keeping existing talent.

Who are the biggest names in the sport.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:27 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think it's completely different

If they wanted Prince and needed a 1st baseman, I don’t think they’d not outbid what everyone perceives his value to be just because he isn’t “existing talent”

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 11:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Eh.

They’re not complete idiots though. They don’t want to just spend money blindly… if they have an opportunity to get a guy for less they will.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:30 PM CST up reply actions  

I buy that this makes sense incentive-wise

But it’s ridiculous time value of money-wise.

it lessens whatever decline he will have and by that time

This might make you feel better, but it’s a poor way to spend money. The Rangers would be better off in multiple ways by back loading the contract.

They have TV revenue in the future. Additionally, if they can afford the $25M this year, they are better off investing it, and paying it later. Moreover, inflation likely makes future $25M worth less.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 10:22 PM CST up reply actions  

If he gets a 8 year deal its going to be for Teixeira type money

I just think front loading a deal like this with the opt out clauses is the best way to get the player and reap the benefits of the prime of his career while increasing the likelihood of him opting out and not being on the hook for the last part of the deal which will likely be when he is “overpaid”

by bigsteve on Nov 28, 2011 10:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure

I agree with the idea that he’s more likely to opt out if you front load.

I disagree that it’s preferred to owe him less later in the contract, if he doesn’t opt out.

The best of both worlds would be to front-load with deferrals to later years.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 10:36 PM CST up reply actions  

I am getting a bit more optimistic on signing him.

It’s still like 10%… but it’s higher than zero.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 8:25 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm really pulling for a deflated off-season of FA spending

NY and Bos don’t appear to be on any big prospects, and there’s a lot of guys that are expecting to get paid, without a lot of teams desperate to spend money.

Dodgers, Mets, Cubs all appear to be in sell-mode (or at least not willing to go big). I wouldn’t be shocked to see the Dodgers break from this.

Angels and Brewers are limited by their announced budget.

Marlins appear to be bluffing a bit, and still have Loria at the helm.

Rangers, Braves, Cardinals, Blue Jays appear to be the best options, but who knows. Blue Jays have recently been burned on seemingly every large contract, and Braves don’t need a 1b.

by Jobu. on Nov 28, 2011 10:29 PM CST up reply actions  

I should have known.

"The Angels are like the villain in the movie that isn't dead until he's been stabbed 150 times in the bath tub, yet he still might come back up one more time." - Eric Nadel

by TXHC on Nov 28, 2011 8:26 PM CST reply actions  

Great Read

"It's incredibly hard." - Ronald Washington

by 3Bagger on Nov 28, 2011 10:09 PM CST reply actions  

So I guess nobody found where I said the 2010 off-season was going to be JD's biggest challenge yet?

I don’t think I said it….JD had a lot more money to spend than he had previously with very defined needs and weaknesses.

This off-season is his biggest challenge to date.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 10:28 PM CST reply actions  

If I say I'm heavily skeptical about a pitcher like....oh, say Cobra Lewis for example...that

doesn’t mean I definitively think he’s going to suck like I thought Judy Borbon was going to suck.

It means I’m heavily skeptical.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Heh.
I will be shocked if Lewis can
give the Rangers 150 IPs with an ERA below 5.
It’s been a very active off-season and JD has definitely "looked busy."

I don’t think we’ve moved backwards but I’m having a hard time figuring out where we’ve improved. Our glaring team weaknesses of 2009 are still just as glaring.

Colby Lewis seems like somebody who should be considered AAA depth and nobody that you’d be giving $ 6 million and the ball every 5 days.

If he was really good, more teams would have been after him and he would have been a helluva lot more expensive. That is, unless the Rangers Pacific Rim Job knows more than everybody else.

I’m not a fan of Brandon McCarthy at all but he’s a better pitcher than Lewis. I’d rather see Harrison, Holland or CJ being given a chance to start than watching a 31 year old Cobra Lewis throw down a 6.00 ERA while killing our bully every 5 days.

What do you say when you’re beyond heavily skeptical?

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:17 PM CST up reply actions  

You also missed the quote that said "I'm heavily skeptical."

Everything I wrote drips with heavy skepticism about Cobra Lewis.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:21 PM CST up reply actions  

What I wrote is crafted pretty well...

I said he “seems like somebody …” . Seems is a pussy ride the fence word and not definitive.

I also said “unless the Pacific Rim Job…” . Unless is an out and not definitive.

When I think somebody is going to suck, I’ll say it. If I’m riding the fence you’ll see what I wrote about Cobra.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:25 PM CST up reply actions  

You were very specific about the 6.00 ERA and BMac being better.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:26 PM CST up reply actions  

I mean.. if you think a guy is going to have a 6.00 ERA and be worse than a guy you hate in BMac

How is that not saying “He sucks”?

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 28, 2011 11:29 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't look at what I wrote about Cobra as a prediction...It was strictly hyperbole. I didn't know what

the fuck he was going to do and I was much more bullish on other pitchers.

When I’m bullish on somebody or if I think they’re going to suck, I’ll say it in very clear terms for just these occasions.

I know my opinions carry a lot sway in here and if I’m wrong, I’m going to hear about it…which I have no problems with…I have the stones to get up on the stage and speak loudly.

Sometimes I’m on the fence with issues because I really don’t know or feel like the player/pitcher could go either way.

I didn’t know what to think about Cobra Lewis coming to the Rangers in 2010. A lot of things didn’t add up and that made me heavily skeptical.

If I’m actually wrong on something ….see Elvis Andrus…I have no problem admitting it.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 28, 2011 11:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Here's the thing...

If Colby had gone out there and sucked… put up a 6.00+ ERA and pitched 80 innings…

You’d have thumped your chest and said you called that… and pointed out all the times that you said he’d suck and that he was too cheap and JD made a bad move, blah blah blah.

You know you would.

Riding the fence is your way of crafting a little escape hatch. Because there’s no way you’re not grinding everyone’s face in it Colby being shitty if he was.

"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver

by Brad on Nov 29, 2011 8:30 AM CST up reply actions  

Bullshit.

Can you think of a previous example where I rode the fence on somebody with heavy skepticism and then thumped my chest and said I called that?

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."

"You want false modesty? F that."

by Josey Wales on Nov 29, 2011 9:06 AM CST up reply actions  

Why do you use pussy words?

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 29, 2011 1:44 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm sorry I missed this.

Easiest possible claim to disprove, that one.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.

by Aqua on Nov 29, 2011 1:44 AM CST up reply actions  

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