Friday a.m. Rangers stuff
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 9, 2011 9:00 AM CST
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C.J. Wilson is an Angel, signing a 5 year, $77.5 million deal. And it is pretty clear, given that the Rangers 1) never made C.J. a formal offer, and 2) apparently provided C.J.'s agent with "parameters" on a deal that wasn't in the same ballpark as what Anaheim and Miami were offering, that the Rangers were never serious about bringing him back.
Based on what has been said by the local media, it is pretty clear that the Rangers didn't view C.J. Wilson as part of their "core," part of the group they wanted to build around and keep together going forward. Yeah, if the market for Wilson didn't develop, or if he were willing to take a deep discount to stay in Texas, sure, they'd have brought him back. But Wilson wasn't a priority for this team, and the front office has seemingly been prepared for over a year to move forward in 2012 without him.
5 years, $77.5 million seems like a reasonable amount to pay Wilson to stay in Texas. The Rangers felt, at that price, they'd rather see him join their chief divisional rival. I think that's a mistake. We'll see in time who was right.
Gerry Fraley has a story at the DMN behind the paywall that is headlined, "C.J. Wilson will never fit the profile of a top-ranked starter." What's interesting is the use of the word "profile," rather than performance. C.J. Wilson didn't act like most baseball players act, didn't act like a #1 starter acts, and that seemed to rub many, particularly in the media, the wrong way.
Joey Matches doesn't like how all the C.J. Wilson stuff played out.
Anthony Andro says that there are no bad guys in the Wilson saga...the Rangers stuck to what they feel is the best plan for this organization, and Wilson took less money to go be close to friends and family.
Jeff Wilson writes that the Rangers aren't changing their offseason plans based on the Angels grabbing C.J. Wilson and Albert Pujols, with Jon Daniels saying that "our focus is on our own guys."
T.R. Sullivan writes that the Rangers focus will continue to be on player development rather than signing big name free agents.
Behind the paywall, Evan Grant writes that the big contracts the Angels handed out yesterday could end up helping the Rangers in the long run, if the contracts do end up becoming as onerous as Texas thinks they will.
Mac Engel writes that the Angels are following the Tom Hicks game plan.
Sullivan says that the Rangers are interested in adding a starting pitcher, but aren't interested in parting with top prospects to acquire a pitcher who would represent only an incremental improvement over the five starters currently in place.
The S-T's notes include quotes from former Ranger front office guy Scott Servais, who is now with the Angels, on the Angels' acquisitions, stuff on Yu Darvish being posted, and info on Greg Miclat, the minor league infielder who is the player to be named later in the Taylor Teagarden deal.
ESPN Dallas explains how the posting system for Japanese League players works.
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C.J. posted this on his facebook early today
(I also posted it in yesterday’s second thread on him, but I’m cross-posting it here).
I just want to say thank you to all the ranger fans who have supported me, and my efforts in the community the last six years in Texas. Surely it’s both hard for some to understand that I left for a different team let alone a division rival- it was bittersweet for me as well. At the end of the day the rangers didn’t make a push to keep me on the team. The angels an marlins wanted me on their teams and proved it. everything written about an asking price etc was media speculation and never had an ounce of truth. The rangers are a great organization with talented front office and players and will be a difficult team to beat and it’s very sad to leave such awesome teammates and fans. The last few years in ranger stadium were special- going from a losing team to bankrupt to american league champs was a complete transformation and obviously everyone should be proud of it. The charity will continue even stronger now and we will continue to support North Texas kids as well as SoCal kids. Please keep that spirit of philanthropy alive for your local causes like cooks children’s hospital, Scottish rite, dallas children’s and the boys and girls club.
by The Best Micah on Dec 9, 2011 9:03 AM CST reply actions 6 recs
See...
I don’t understand why people view Wilson as a ‘douche’. It’s just stupid.
The guy has other interests besides baseball, heaven forbid. He’s not uptight and only willing to give the pc answer when interviewed. Personally see see that as a breath of fresh air. The CJ hate has been and always will be unwarranted imho.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I think it's the so-called California Cool
Let’s face it, there are quite a few Texans who were probably turned off by CJ’s lifestyle, mannerisms, and/or candor.
I loved CJ, I will still like him as a person, but I wish him nothing but failure in the future. He’s already been paid now, he’s had a chance to win a ring. If he’s wearing Angel red, I want nothing but an early retirement for him now. It’s that simple.
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 9:25 AM CST up reply actions
If that's the case...
then Texans just need to get over it. There’s plenty of great things about Southern California. It really is a nice place. The whole arguing about Texas v. California and who is better is just lame.
I don’t see anything about BGL’s lifestyle or mannerisms that should make anyone dislike him. I will certainly have that sports hate for him now since he’s a Halo, but I can’t hate the guy. He was a huge part of the two most successful teams in Rangers history. I will always be thankful to him for that.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I didn't like
the interview he gave right after the game 6 loss in the locker room where he was talking about his racing team, his pitch selection computer program etc. while everyone else sat around pissed that they lost.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 9:31 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not wild about some Southern California cultural aspects
I like CJ Wilson just fine though, and much of my family is from So Cal. I suspect CJ’s frankness with the media is looked upon poorly by some, but I enjoyed it. I would rather CJ be CJ, and in fact most people be who they are, than have them try to fit some stereotype to make people happy.
Yeah. I'm sad.
I’m sad to see CJ go. I’m sad that the Angles are, indeed, a big market team. I’m sad I have to root against CJ.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
Such a class act, CJ. Good luck in Cali.
Evan Grant needs to shut the fuck up when it comes to CJ Wilson.
From today’s DMN..“Wilson is a very good major league pitcher but he’s not going to get any better than he was the last two years and the likelihood is that he will be in decline during a significant portion of the five years Los Angeles committed to him.”
I guess EG missed the part about those 100 IPs CJ used to pitch in Texas now being pitched in the very pitcher-friendly confines of Anaheim (CJ lifetime ERA of 2.79 in a very SSS 38 IPs).
I guess EG missed the part about CJ putting up a 2.50ish ERA on the road the last two seasons…in 210 IPs.
Evan, CJ stuck it all up your ass the last couple of years and just cashed in yesterday ….5 years / $ 75 million…his post-season performance didn’t cost him millions like both you and Fraley giggled about happening on The Ticket last October. He could have gone to Miami for 6/96 but chose to go to Cali.
Your column today is bullshit.
He kicked your ass -tip your cap and move forward.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
by Josey Wales on Dec 9, 2011 9:37 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
He's just dogmatically sticking to the same talking points in order to advance some asinine agenda
Should ring a bell, Mr. Wales.
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 9:41 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
i'll agree with you on this JW......the media needs to STFU regarding CJ
he was a good team guy that did very well for us and never wronged the Rangers in any way.
NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development
Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM
Huh
"Wilson is a very good major league pitcher but he’s not going to get any better than he was the last two years and the likelihood is that he will be in decline during a significant portion of the five years Los Angeles committed to him."
I don’t see how this should be considered a controversial statement.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 9, 2011 9:44 AM CST up reply actions
I disagree with the absoluteness of his statement.
Since C.J.
couldget better… but that is probably correct.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Doh.
Meant to hit italics instead of block quote.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Let's get this out of the way...I know you consider EG a friend or colleague of some sort and I don't really have a problem
with either but he’s had two major blind spots thru the years…sitting there with his thumbs up his ass when Tom Hicks was doing his thing (called him the best owner the Rangers ever had) and his dealings with CJ.
It’s not a controversial statement…it’s a dumbass statement.
CJ is going to do really well in LAAAA. Those 15-17 starts he used to make in Texas will now be made in Anaheim. That alone, is going to make him a better pitcher and expect an ERA somewhere between 2.50-3.00 next year.
CJ doesn’t have a ton of miles on his arm and is a physical fanatic freak. There is no reason to believe he’s going to breakdown in the next few years.
This column was written because EG has a bone up his ass about CJ and always has. From that first Spring Training where there was a big spread in the DMN saying “this is becoming all about CJ” …to the bullshit he wrote after CJ’s first start (7 IPs – 1 run or somesuch) “the Rangers are tinkering with tomfoolery”….to both him and Fraley giggling like school girls on The Ticket about him “losing 25 maybe 30 million dollars” .
EG needs to realize that CJ kicked his ass and leave it at that.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
by Josey Wales on Dec 9, 2011 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Grant said two things
1) CJ isn’t going to get better than he was the last two years. That’s probably true.
2) The likelihood is that he will be in decline during a significant portion of the five years Los Angeles committed to him. That is true.
What’s the big deal?
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 9, 2011 10:00 AM CST up reply actions
What are you considering "better" and what are you considering "significant" ?
Those are the key words that are giving you shelter. You may shake the Alphabet Tree and find some obscure stat that says “See, he’s not any better than he was in Texas.”
I think CJ is going to have a better ERA and is a dark horse for the Cy Young the next three years.
I suspect he may have one year that’s not as good as the others and somebody like you may call that “significant” because it’s 20% of the contract.
And do you acknowledge that EGrant hasn’t been fair with how he has dealt with CJ the last 2+ years?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
He's not a talent evaluator
The issue is that he’s a beat writer, and he’s not paid to know things like this
If he’s going to go out on a limb with something like this, it needs to say, ‘according to ….’
He’s proven time and time again that he takes his personal feelings into account while writing about players (witness, seeing MY as the AL MVP), so I don’t want to hear his opinion on a player, unless it’s info he’s gotten from someone in an organization.
I don’t really read him anyway, so it’s not like it impacts me at all. But I agree with Josey that is ALL his agenda and it’s BS and a shame that he has a soap box on which to spout this jibberish
he might look better because of his park
but he won’t BE better.
and he’s not young He’s 31. at the end of the contract he’ll be 36. In the post-steroid era players don’t get better into their mid 30’s.
so STFU
Why don't you have a nice big cup of shut the fuck up? - Lisa W 3/4/2011
Moving to a team with a worse defense also.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
Angels were very good defensively last year.
Outfield defense and infield defense.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Yeah, there's that little detail.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
And Pujols is a better defender than Trumbo
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
And they are talking about Trumbo playing 3B.
So there is that little detail.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
If they do that... that's a big step down.
Callaspo played very good defense for them last year.
That’s part of why I wanted them to get Aramis Ramirez… the marginal offensive gain would probably be negated by the defensive loss.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
I think they make Trumbo a DH.
I also think they have more trades to make (David Wright?)
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
I've heard that one too
and it still sounds stupid.
the Mets don’t want Trumbo. They have Ike Davis. They want pitching. and prospects.
The Angels want to unload Trumbo they should call the Cubs. Or maybe the Cardinals.
Why don't you have a nice big cup of shut the fuck up? - Lisa W 3/4/2011
Bourjos for Wright
that’s the deal we as Ranger fans should hope does not happen
It means Trout goes straight out to CF, right away
And it means they get another legit bat for their lineup, while selling pretty high on Bourjos
DiPoto mentioned
3B or the OF as the options for Trumbo.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:18 AM CST up reply actions
I think another team is the likely option for Trumbo.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
I could.
Teams do weird shit all the time.
Could you see giving Vernon Wells and Jeff Mathis like 750 PA combined?
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
I still don't believe the Vernon Wells trade happened
I remember thinking for about a week after the trade happened that LAA had surely gotten him on less than half the contract
When it turned out they took on the whole deal, I don’t think my baseball brain could comprehend it.
So all that stuff about the V Wells Contract hamstringing
what the Angels could do in the future was proved wrong not only yesterday but last July when the Angels signed their ace pitcher to a long-term deal a full year before he hit free agency?
You cool with that, Stick?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Yes, and it's still hamstringing them
IF they decided that they are at their payroll ceiling, and they hadn’t made that trade, they could acquire Madson, and make their bullpen actually good.
However, if they are now out of money, then his contract is hamstringing them.
See, I feel pretty misled about that whole thing
All I heard from the media, from the internet, etc after the VW signing was “oh man, this will hamstring the Angels financially for years!”
Translation: they’ll soon be locking up Jered Weaver and adding the two top FA’s (including a monster deal for Albert fucking Pujols) next season.
Wish we could buy Nelson Cruz some of those hamstrings.
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
When you take your already top five payroll...
And decide to add another $40m a year to it… nothing is really going to hamstring you.
Based on everything prior to this winter it seemed like they had a ceiling. They did not do anything at the trade deadline when they were in a pennant race and couldn’t afford to add salary.
They didn’t sign Beltre for roughly the same guaranteed money the committed to Wells because they were worried about the length of the deal.
New TV contract changed everything.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
So the Wells Contract didn't hamstring them
going forward, correct?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
well
did you really think that they could go to $180M payroll?
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
They're a big market team with an
aggressive owner who understands marketing with a track record of knowing what it takes to win.
What we learned yesterday is something we should have known …Never, ever, underestimate Arte Moreno.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Price of bidness,
so the idiot understands…
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
Josey,
Do you think if their payroll were $25M lower right now, that they would stop spending at CJ and Pujols, or add more players?
Impossible to know...I think they
do what it takes to win as long as they can stay under the luxury tax.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Would you concede
That if they didn’t have Vernon on their books right now, that they could fairly easily go sign Ryan Madson + Edwin Jackson and still be under their projected payroll for this year?
We obviously don’t know who they’d target, but I’m extremely happy as a Rangers fan that they have that contract.
Josey sucked on that dick of research and got nothing but blanks.
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
Not avoiding anything...on the phone.
I guess they could but as is, they went and got the best hitter of this generation and our best starting pitcher.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Better than the Rangers?
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
By some metrics.
But defensive metrics are sketchy for one year.
But Trout and Borjous are both very good… if Torii Hunter is your shitty OF you’re in good shape there.
Callaspo, Aybar and Kendrick are all above average defenders.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
They are talking about moving Trumbo to 3B
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:13 AM CST up reply actions
CJ is awesome
I’ve always loved the guy, and I am sad that we didn’t sign him for that deal. I didn’t want him for as much as we all thought he would get, but this was a great deal for the Angels.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
So one of the best lefties in the AL
Doesn’t fit in the team’s plans? Makes sense.
I’ll go get in my UFO now and pick up some chinese food for lunch in Beijing.
Son, if you really want something in this life, you have to work for it. Now quiet! They're about to announce the lottery numbers. - Homer Simpson
by SarasotaRanger on Dec 9, 2011 9:06 AM CST via mobile reply actions 2 recs
if thats the FO explanation......its very shitty.
NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development
Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM
They're going cheap
after saying they weren’t afraid to spend money.
"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11
by vfn on Dec 9, 2011 9:12 AM CST up reply actions
It wont be simply due to arbitration raises
But it will fall well short of a lot of peoples expectations based on comments made directly by the ownership
It'll probably be about $15m higher.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
All of those dreamy discussions of $120M payroll.
Flush.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
Yup.
I was one of the people that thought. From what we know of how MLB teams actually derive their budget… it seems like they should be able to support that.
I have a gut feeling that there was a combination of significant short term debt that had to be resolved as part of the acquisition of a bankrupt club and all the far past due stadium renovations that ate into a big chunk of the revenue increases that two deep playoff runs and an attendance spike brings.
Basically… if we hadn’t gone to the World Series and brought in so much extra money, we’d be looking at something closer to an $80m budget and having to dump salary as our young guys hit arb.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
I hope the Rangers can outbid the market on Soler.
It might be the last time the outbid the market on anybody.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
In a top 5 media market.
Coming off the highest seasonal attendance in club history… I really don’t fucking get it.
"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11
by vfn on Dec 9, 2011 9:42 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed
Attendance increased last year with our first WS appearance.
Don’t you think 3 million is in the bag now that we have back-to-back (if we added a big time FA that draws people to the Temple, I don’t know, god)
I wonder how the heat will keep us from having serious attendance numbers forever.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Hard to see us selling 45K a game
Even if we’re winning.
Those weekday Royals games in 110 degrees are never going to be appealing for sellout level numbers… whether we’re winning or not.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Damn man thats over 3.5 million
Im talking averaging 40K a game which would still be over 3 million and I think very doable
Well we almost did that last year.
We averaged almost 37K a game. 40K might be in reach.
But I’m talking about Phillies and Yankees level numbers… I don’t see us reaching them.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
I think the fact
that we set a record for attendance during the hottest summer in 30+ years says that next year we’re gonna shatter that record (assuming the ballpark doesn’t just melt).
Why don't you have a nice big cup of shut the fuck up? - Lisa W 3/4/2011
Why do you assume there is a massive jump available?
Last year may have been very close to the peak.
We were in first place all year and coming off a World Series appearance.
If nothing changes personnel wise… I think there’s a chance we have lower attendance in 2012.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
did you not see
what I wrote about the heat?
Hottest summer since 1980 at least. so, assuming its not quite so hot this coming summer, you might find some people who weren’t interested in heat stroke but are fans of a team with back to back World Series appearances who might boost our attendance figures a bit.
that being said, I think our current personnel could win the AL West. but I’d sure rather see Prince Fielder playing first and hitting 5th for us next year.
Why don't you have a nice big cup of shut the fuck up? - Lisa W 3/4/2011
Honestly right now
I think the fanbase has been kicked in the nuts.
The Rangers really had a chance, still might have a chance, to really take this market and make it a market that lives and fucking dies baseball.
Game 6, Game 7, and yesterday has really killed the team from a PR standpoint… but hey, there’s a NEW LOUNGE IN FUCKING CENTER FIELD WHOOPEE
"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11
by vfn on Dec 9, 2011 9:49 AM CST up reply actions
NEW OVERPRICED LOUNGE !!! WOOT !!!
NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development
Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM
Sort of. They're spreading the wealth. But in spreading it, they also won't be setting the market any time soon.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
Yeah...
they’re putting trust in the young staff that they’ve assembled over the years. Then they plan on using the money available to lock up the position guys that they have in place. I think that’s pretty clearly the plan right now.
This :
with Jon Daniels saying that “our focus is on our own guys.”
Would seem to suggest that the Rangers won’t be diving into the big time FA’s this winter. I’m sure JD and company are going to be actively looking to improve the team with a trade or two or even smaller FA signings like Nathan. But I think the activity this winter is going to be on the extension front with the guys already here.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
if that's the case
then we’re a second place team.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
I still think the Rangers are better than the Halos.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I think it's close
but the Rangers could make some noise and make it easier to say that.
"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11
by vfn on Dec 9, 2011 9:26 AM CST up reply actions
Oh it's certainly close...
close enough that anything could happen in 2012 between the two teams, no matter who the Rangers or Angels sign/trade for from this point on.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I think, as we are currently constructed,
we are a clear tier below the Angels.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
I'm with you, obviously.
As constructed, I see the Rangers as 88-91 win team and Angels as 90-93 win team.
But, that’s only because I’m optimistic about Holland/Harrison right now. I could be convinced the Rangers window is a little lower than that on a day I’m not feeling so optimistic about Holland/Harrison.
I have no expectations for Feliz beyond a solid #5 year.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
We are not a clear tier below the Angels.
Go do actual math instead of just being sad.
The Angels might have more talent now (and they might not)…
But what they did was close a sizable talent gap. If the Angels are better it’s not significantly so.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
I shouldn't have said "a clear tier"
but I do think they are the better team right now, if only by a couple of wins.
I am also extremely worried about our starters’ ability to repeat last year’s performance. Are we confident enough in their mechanics that we believe Holland, Harrison and Ogando will all avoid the “Verducci Effect”?
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
They are all high variance starters.
Such is life with a $7m starting rotation.
It could turn out great… it could turn out shitty… it could turn out anywhere in between.
Every one of our starters will be worth what we pay them… the question is if it will be enough.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Currently constructed, I think the Angels are a 95 win team.
And I think they’re still going to make some moves.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Yeah, I don't think they're done
Moreno’s mad about finishing behind the Rangers the last two years.
by The Best Micah on Dec 9, 2011 9:42 AM CST up reply actions
I'm waiting to see what we do but losing your number one
starting pitcher who was a war horse the last two years is not a step forward.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
I think not
They’re pen is still shitty, Ervin Santana isn’t as good as he was in the second half of last year. they can’t play both Bourjos and Trout (who probably isn’t ready yet), Hunter is what, 50 now? And they still have Wells and no third baseman.
I think the biggest offseason acquisition for the Angels right now is probably Chris Iannetta, if he gets to play. (Iannetta was a 3.3 WAR player last year, Mathis a -1.0 WAR player) even over Pujols (Pujols was a 5.1 WAR vs Trumbo’s 2.3)
Why don't you have a nice big cup of shut the fuck up? - Lisa W 3/4/2011
I think the Rangers' pen is the key
They’ve loaded up on relievers for the last half year and I think the idea is to rely on that to take some pressure off the rotation especially Feliz.
Football can go to hell. The Rangers aren't ready for football season and neither am I.
by WyoRanger on Dec 9, 2011 10:31 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
The Rangers are spending $7M on their rotation
And the Angels will spend … $50+ M … it’s definitely stating to feel a bit more like the AL East where we’re Tampa Bay and the Angels are the Yanks
It’s really hard to compete against a team that can outspend you in these proportions
Let's come off the pity train.
We’re not exactly destitute. We’ve just prioritized different things.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.
I don't see it as a pity train
Though there has been a ton of that going around here lately, obviously, with the $300M our primary competitors just threw at their lineup.
It’s just a rather stark comparison in what each team can and has allocated to a portion of their club
The Rays biggest competitor
Has a payroll 500% theirs, and their 2nd biggest competitor has a payroll 400% theirs.
The Rangers biggest competitor has a payroll 70% higher than theirs.
The situations are not comparable—just saying.
just saying
our biggest competitor is spending 7-8X on their starting rotation than we will — kind of comparable?
Right, but how spoiled are we that we don't want to have to fight to make the playoffs?
I’m extremely bummed, too. But the reason we’re bummed is we assumed we were in the playoffs next year, and now it’s a toss-up.
I put the teams about equal as they stand, right now. And ideally, the Rangers add someone else—even if it isn’t a big contract, our team can still get stronger.
Basically we're facing the same problem that the Red Sox, Yankees and Rays do every year.
We actually have competition.
Right now I’d put the Rangers around 90-91 wins and the Angels about 92-93.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
This sounds about right to me
The more I think about it, the more I think LAAAAAA has pulled even with us, rather than surpassed us.
But I very much worry about Harrison, Holland, and Ogando being able to repeat last season. Offensively, Beltre, Cruz, and Hamilton may all outperform last season’s numbers, which should make up for a potential cooldown from Kins, Naps, and Face.
But pitching? I’d say most of our guys pitched to their top caliber. What if we run into multiple regressions?
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 9:45 AM CST up reply actions
I disagree.
Colby certainly didn’t.
Holland hasn’t hit his ceiling.
Harrison might have… but his consistency was very encouraging.
There’s no telling what Feliz will do… tremendous arm… inexperience.
Ogando is similar.
Our rotation could be better in 2012… it probably won’t be… but it also might not be significantly worse. It’s super high variance… big risk… big reward too.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Right, but I didn't say I was worried about Colby Lewis
I’m worried about the young guys. Our roto currently looks like this:
Lewis, Holland, Harrison, Ogando, Feliz, with Jebediah Feldman lurking around in the spot starter role.
Even assuming all those guys manage to stay healthy, are you confident in that kind of rotation?
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 9:51 AM CST up reply actions
Actually yes... I am pretty confident in it.
But see my sig.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
And then there's the trade deadline....
How many pitchers will be available for the Rangers to pounce on? I’m not that worried about the rotation….
Colby replaces CJ – Colby should have a better season…he was hurt most of last season
Holland moves up to Colby’s spot…I’m confident Holland builds on last season
Harrison moves up…I share your concern about Harry
Ogando has a season of starting under his belt and builds on it
Feliz is the real wildcard here….if he’s as effective as Ogando, the rotation will be fine.
And then there’s Feldman who can jump into the rotation.
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 9, 2011 9:53 AM CST up reply actions
I dunno, fellas
I mean, I like Colby Lewis. I like him alot. There are times when he takes the mound I get the feeling “hey, I might just be witnessing a no-hitter here.”
And Derek Holland does indeed have ace-caliber ceiling.
But Colby’s not getting any younger. Harrison has historically been all over the place. Ogando? Who the heck knows? Feliz? Even more of, as you said, a wildcard.
I’m nervous as hell about it, and Joe fuckin’ Nathan holding down the back end doesn’t give me any more confidence.
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 9:57 AM CST up reply actions
Who is getting younger?
I want to meet that person.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 9:58 AM CST up reply actions
*rolls eyes
My point still stands. One injury to Colby and our rotation looks very sketchy.
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 10:00 AM CST up reply actions
One injury to Pujols
and the Angels lineup sure looks like last year.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
With CJ Wilson instead of Tyler Chatwood
And Chris Ianetta instead of Jeff muthafuckin’ Mathis.
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 10:03 AM CST up reply actions
You know what you need to do.
Take one for the team.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
If I could afford airfare to So Cal
I would consider it.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:05 AM CST up reply actions
You also have too consider they still have
one of the best bullpens in the majors.
Courage, my friend!!!
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 9, 2011 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
Ogando is the wild card
No one really should be counting on Feliz to be a #4. Either he’s really good, a decent #4 or sucks and you bring in Scooter. No biggie. Ogando has two pitches and was damn lucky last year. I can see a serious regression from him.
Football can go to hell. The Rangers aren't ready for football season and neither am I.
by WyoRanger on Dec 9, 2011 10:36 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
He was not damn lucky last year
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
no kidding
he pitched right along with his peripherals. I don’t see why everyone thinks he was lucky. he was good. there is no denying that. Pitchers with the type of fastball that Ogando and Feliz have don’t always need 3 or 4 pitches
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Specifically starters.
Relievers can do it.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Of course he isn't going to average that in his career
But I wouldn’t be surprise if he evens out at about .285, and his peripherals backed up his performance last year.
Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty good.
3,65 FIP, 3.94 xFIP
He was helped by his defense, like he’ll be helped by his defense in 2012. That doesn’t mean that he wasn’t still very good. And this is with his late season fatigue that saw him getting killed.
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
I guess I should have been more careful
He was both very good and lucky last year.
I’ve always been a leave-Ogando-in-the-Roto guy. I’m excited about his future there.
I don't consider Feliz a #4....now....
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 9, 2011 10:43 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not sure I approve of this definition of "exciting"
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
The Verducci effect isn't actually real, so yeah
Both Holland and Harrison have had seasons where they threw a lot of innings, so last year’s jump in inning isn’t that drastic. Alexi Ogando is a bigger concern, but he also falls in the same category that CJ did where he is an older player who is already past the physical development stage. I’d expect Ogando to be just fine this year.
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
Yeah, no
At the end of the season, there’s a chance it looks that way if things don’t go right.
But we have tremendous talent on our team, and I think you’re forgetting that.
Our defense is incredible. We had 5 different 4-war players in our lineup, with Young at 3.8, and Cruz at 1.6 (we can all agree he’s better than that).
We also have 4 SP’s returning that were 2.5 – 4 WAR players, in addition to a phenom joining the rotation in Feliz.
LAA out-performed themselves most of last year, and we still finished 10 games up.
His ceiling is three times that.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
2 of his 3 full ML season have been similar
2009 and 2011
But yet people seem to believe 2010 should eb the norm for him. At his age I dont understand that.
yes he has all the talent in the world and hits majestic HRs but he is a very streaky hitter with not great OBP skills who is very injury prone. His ceiling is probably borderline HOFer but he has only come close to hitting that once in his career.
I don't think 2010 should be the norm.
But I don’t think he’s a 1.5 WAR player either.
He’s a legit 3 WAR player.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
And his ceiling is very clearly higher
2009: 3.3 WAR in 128 games with a .279 BABIP
2010: 5.1 WAR in 101 games with a .348 BABIP
This is one of those times I dont go straight to WAR
Mainly due to the defensive metrics involved
I think its very likely we see him with a line close to .265/ .330/ .520 as a norm going forward.
I think that's reasonable
And with average to plus COF defense, that probably puts him at around 4-5 WAR over a healthy season.
If you just consider his playoffs as a part of last season
I think he’s already a 3+ war player in a down year last year, in less than a full season.
We're mere moments away from bigsteve math.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
I get the numbers
but I feel like a few guys had career years last year and I don’t like counting on them to repeat that. Do we really think Napoli is going to be worth six wins again? Will all of our young starters avoid injuries after big innings jumps? I’m not sure. And I think there’s got to be some psychological collateral damage from the way last year ended. I have no idea if it will effect their play, but it’s got to be there.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
Who knows but it works both ways.....
Who knows if Weaver, Haren or even CJ will make it through the season without injury? Torii Hunter is another year older and so it Vernon Wells…..
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 9, 2011 9:42 AM CST up reply actions
Isn't the worst part of yesterday the realization that
the Angels are going to be in the $170-180 million range for years to come. I don’t think they are going to go back down to $130 mil when Hunter, Abreu and others come off the books like some have suggested
I think Weaver and Napoli are the main players on each club that will regress
The injuries thing is a definite concern, but the Angels had tremendous luck with health last year, too (Kendrys aside, but I don’t think he’s coming back)
I disagree
They’ve added a big bat and a big SP, but the Rangers are not a clear tier below the Angels because of that. The Angels needed that to get to the Rangers level.
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
If the Rangers went to war with their current crew, I'm guessing
they’d be anywhere from 86-90 wins…maybe more depending on The Feliz Experiment and whether or not Nathan has anything left.
I think the FO is going to do what it takes or will at least attempt to make moves that get us closer to 95-100 wins.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
I have no confidence in that.
There is obviously not a willingness to spend out of pocket, even with the guaranteed future TV revenue coming in 2014. Add the obvious risk aversion to that, and I don’t see anything happening this offseason.
Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty good.
The willingness to spend
As much as I hate it because I hate losing CJ, the Rangers were set up to let CJ go and to not suffer much as a result. With CJ, you have two of Ogando, Feliz, and Feldman not making the rotation and you also are taking away one potential spot from guys like Neil Ramirez and Martin Perez in the near future and plenty of other potential arms 2+ years from now.
I understand exactly why the Rangers didn’t want to sign CJ to a long-term contract when they had so many good options now and for the future. If CJ was a better bet to be a 5.9 fWAR pitcher for a couple more years, they probably make that exception. But if CJ is going to be something more like a 4.5 WAR in his best years of the contract, then the difference between CJ and the other guys likely isn’t worth the huge salary difference.
So I think the willingness to spend will come when there are situations like with Beltre last year. There was an obvious hole at 3B and the Rangers had no real 3B option outside of watching Young butcher the position. In that case, they went out and signed a big FA in Beltre. In the future, I’d expect them to approach FA in the same way. When there’s a major hole to fill in the offseason and a FA that fills the hole, they’ll go out and get a deal done.
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
There is an obvious hole at 1B.
There is an obvious upgrade at 1B.
Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty good.
There is not that obvious a hole at 1B
If Moreland struggles again this season, Young and Napoli can handle 1B. I wouldn’t expect them to match Prince Fielder’s 2012 season he would have, but I wouldn’t expect that difference to be worth the likely contract.
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
I would like to see other people's opinion on this.
Naps is our catcher going forward, MY is MY, and Moreland looks likely to top out at “serviceable.” Fielder is an obvious upgrade at an obvious weak spot.
Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty good.
I would rather have Fielder and let Hamilton go...
Let Napoli catch/DH and let MY DH when Napoli catches. When Napoli and MY are gone, you have Fielder as the DH.
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 9, 2011 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
Yorvit is around to catch too
and outside of a near hitless May, he was hitting good enough to be a starter himself.
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
I'll say this
I don’t think the Rangers team as currently constructed is the one we’ll finish the 2012 season with. I don’t know that the Rangers will be making any other major moves this offseason though. These past couple of playoff runs though have shown that the Rangers can identify their needs during the season and make the necessary moves to shore up those weaknesses.
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
mid season trades
how willing to let Greinke go will the Brewers be, assuming their not in contention, if they lose their draft pick compensation by letting him go and the team trading for him doesn’t want to pay that price in talent b/c they don’t get the draft picks back to make up the loss?
(you can insert any of the 2012 FA’s for Greinke)
Could be a lot less mid season trading, it seems.
I'd say he's adhering to the truism that "standing still means going backwards"
We have put together a great team over the past two seasons, but we can’t expect to run the exact same guys out there (or in this case, minus one of our best pitchers) and expect the same results.
Anaheim has gotten a LOT better over the offseason. So far the Rangers have not. They really haven’t done much of anything other than signing a (once) effective closer who is pushing 40 and coming off of major surgery.
Unless they have ironclad confidence that Neftali can replace CJ’s production in the rotation (which I sure as hell don’t), they need to make another move, or the AL West crown will be headed back to Anaheim in 2012.
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 9:31 AM CST up reply actions
Why can we not expect Holland, Harrison, and Ogando to improve?
The possibility is there for them to get worse, but you need to acknowledge the possibility that those guys are going to continue taking steps forward with their pitching.
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
This!!
Especially with the Maddii working with them….why is regression assumed by so many people?
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 9, 2011 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not a complete pessimist
I like to think of myself as a realist.
Realistically, you could see some improvement from Colby, Holland, and even Harrison, Ogando, Feliz. All of them could improve. Conversely, CJ could pull a Kazmir or Lackey and completely flop in Anaheim (but flopping as a #3 or #4 doesn’t have the same impact as flopping as a #1).
But I’m in the camp that feels Harrison’s 2011 was about as good as it’s going to get. Holland had a B+ year (to use a stupid and arbitrary rating system). I feel like Alexi was in a little over his head by the end of the season.
We need all of these guys to improve on 2011. We haven’t left ourselves any room for regression and/or injury with this current rotation.
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 11:29 AM CST up reply actions
Given their ages, and (especially in Ogando's case) where they are on the learning curve,
we are a good deal more likely to see improvement than decline in everybody but Colby.
Plus, Maddux Mafia, baby.
The off season is just starting. A lot of angrydomers are really overreacting here.
Northern Virginia's all time world champion Rangers fan of all time and all of Northern Virginia, and the rest of Virginia too. Mayor of Greatestfanville, Virginia.
Adam J Morris, halfassedly pretending to be interested in my thoughts, goals, and overall self esteem since late 2005.
I don't think you can "expect" it.
But you can acknowledge that it could happen.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Definitely
But with the options we have for the rotation, I like the Rangers chances of keeping the SP as strong as it was last year’s.
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
Angels got about 8-9 games better
No one expects Neftali to replace CJ’s 5.9 war but he should be good for 1.5(?). So yeah, the Rangers are in a hole there.
Football can go to hell. The Rangers aren't ready for football season and neither am I.
by WyoRanger on Dec 9, 2011 10:47 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
If thats the plan I am upset
because its going to lead to at least one if not multiple extensions that will hurt us worse than the Pujols deal may hurt the Angels in 6 or 7 years
"38"
"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11
by vfn on Dec 9, 2011 9:29 AM CST up reply actions
Our deals would likely be for pretty good chunks of money to guys with pretty extensive injury histories
And we dont have anyone in the upper minors ready to fill in for them for the next few years
The Angels have 5-6 years to find their next 1B before having to decide whether to move Pujols off 1B.
Meh, with HGH testing
I can’t see Pujols tearing it up into his late 30’s and early 40’s.
I think he’ll be decent—Thome-esque, but I think he won’t be a feared hitter anymore.
He’s a huge guy, and he’ll have some of the injury effects that people fear Prince is going to have.
So how long before you think his true decline start?
Not just minimal dropoff in terms of performance but drastic?
Do you think itll happen within the next 2-3 years or more than likely 5-6 years?
I think he's already a bit in decline because of how great he was before
But I’d say in 4-6 years, he becomes more of a 120-125 wRC+ hitter (which is still so good, but he’ll have the effect of like a Michael Young on their club, which is a lot less scary).
Ok well in 5 years he's the only person on the payroll as of now
They have plenty of time and plenty of advance warning to plan around that. if their new tv deal kicks in it probably wont affect them very much at all.
A big contract really only affects teams when the player starts the decline earlier than anticipated and they havent planned for such.
I don't think there's any way a contract for one player can hamstring a team
with a $200M + payroll.
It will have some effect, but if they become an AL West dweller, it won’t be Pujols’s contract that does it.
Nope just like I dont think a Prince Fielder contract would hamstring us
If in fact we have a tv deal coming and once that gets here we bump our payroll closer to 150 million like ownership has stated.
We have no one on the books after 2015 at this time so if in fact payroll will bump by that point a Prince contract shouldn’t hinder us much at all
He's had some drastic dropoffs already
He was a 9 win player in 2009. A 7 win player in 2010. A 5 win player last year.
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
Then you're going to be upset...
and the only possible extension that scares me is Hamilton.
But I have to trust JD and the front office, they’ve given me very little reason to doubt them. Even if I disagree with the way they handled the Wilson situation.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I hope that "our focus is on our own guys" doesn't mean just resigning our own FAs.
If the team thinks that signing Wilson to a long-term deal isn’t a wise move because we already have Perez/Ramirez at AAA and we have our sights on other FA starters over the next couple of years, then that’s fine.
But guys like Hamilton and Napoli aren’t safer bets long-term than Wilson, and losing Wilson just so we can resign Hamilton seems like a misallocation of resources.
It might be interesting to see what the Rangers do if Greinke hits the market next offseason.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
from all reports it was Greenberg spear heading the 6 year deal on Cliff and Nolan was reluctant to go over 5
And that was at a pretty steep price. If he was ok going 5 with Lee last year then it really pisses me off they wouldn’t go 5 at such a reasonable price on CJ, even if he did turn it down
I think Napoli is a good bet
and as a good hitting catcher, his spot is hard to replace.
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
Yep
Dont go out and buy those Holland or Harrison jerseys just yet because it appears the Rangers aren’t willing to go past 4 years on a pitcher so most likely those guys are gone when their time comes as well
I think Holland could get a 5 year deal after this year.
I could see them buying out 3 arb years (2013, 2014, 2015) to get 2 FA years (2016, 2017).
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
we aren't the Rays
we only buy out the Feldman’s of the world.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
heh
You forgot to include FACE in this comment.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
Prospects
http://www.lonestarball.com/2011/12/9/2623318/lsb-offseason-community-prospect-ranking-11
"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11
The Angels aren't following the Hicks plan. They actually have revenue rather borrowing it.
I think this is a well structured deal that will have much less of an impact on payroll in the second half of the contract than people are guessing. And, it has potential to bring in incredible amounts of revenue on the front end making it easier to maintain revenue later even if the Angels have a couple of rough years.
This is nothing like the first ARod contract. It’s much more like the second ARod contract. The Yankees aren’t going to fall apart because ARod doesn’t produce commiserate with his contract. The same can be said of the Angels/Pujols deal.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
Yes, but...
The leverage of betting $250 million guaranteed dollars on one man is very significant. And risky.
"It's incredibly hard." - Ronald Washington
Especially when you don't give yourself and "out" of the contract....
No opt-outs, no team options, a full no trade clause?
Way too risky….
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 9, 2011 9:31 AM CST up reply actions
I can't even believe it
That is a quarter of a BILLION dollars in the liability column for a 6 WAR player who has probably peaked? Maybe one gigantic year out of 10 ahead?
"It's incredibly hard." - Ronald Washington
Did you see what their reported new tv deal is?
That greatly reduces the actual risk knowing they have that revenue coming in
Almost twice what our new TV deal is...
So that big budget deficit between the two teams isn’t going away in the next 20 years.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
and with the shitty CBA....we can't go heavy in LA anymore
NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development
Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM
And honestly
If all the TV deals are going into the huge numbers like this, I don’t see how contracts aren’t about to inflate like crazy. Pujols may look like a whatever contract in 7 years, when people are signing for $350M
Yep
I think you are going to start seeing big market teams use these tv deals to really up their payrolls, also the new CBA plays a part in that, and the mid-small market teams are going to be even further behind.
But apparently our owners are waiting on the money to be in their hands first before spending it which normally I would be ok with but given the circumstances of this offseasno it pisses me off
True...I remember when people were going crazy over Rickey Henderson's
contract at $3 mil/year………10 years from now, the Pujols contract may look relatively small….
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 9, 2011 9:45 AM CST up reply actions
I don't know about small...
but it wouldn’t surprise me if it doesn’t look as bad as people think of it now.
It has been 10 years since the A-Rod contract
and it still doesnt look even close to small.
At least I get to see the Rangers when they play the Twins now.
Well...that's because it's for essentially the same amount....
Jobu was talking about when players start signing for $350 mil and $400 mil….the Henderson contract for $3.3 mil/year was in 1989…less than 15 years later, ARod is walking around for $25 mil/year….
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 9, 2011 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah but the jumps in TV revenue are astronomical compared to ever before
Also, AROD was a 24-yr old FA and a top-10 player EVER. That won’t happen too many times ever again.
I do wonder
if FOX is going to be lamenting these deals a few years from now. They seem to be betting heavy on MLB local team enthusiasm. I was under the impression that MLB has been down vis a vis TV ratings over the last couple decades.
Don’t get me wrong, I love watching the Rangers on TV; but why is FOX going in so big on what in the accounts I’ve seen is a declining market?
They get his record chase
Records always draw viewers. With Fox having national rights also you can almost guarantee that the Angels will be on the Saturday games very frequently especially as he draws closer to those records
I don't know the numbers
But it shocks me that these TV deals are worth it to them.
I hope you’re right, because if they start to go down, the Rangers will be sitting pretty.
Stay Tuned
Entertainment companies are reaching for ideas to generate revenue. It is not inconceivable that they can’t live up to their end of these TV deals. See the balance sheets of Disney, Fox, etc. These corporations are not exactly loaded with cash and their revenue streams are getting dicey (DVD sales, et al).
I’m just saying, there was a time when the idea that real estate could crash or Merrill Lynch or B of A could be bankrupted seemed ridiculous. Which is why owing one man $250 million (because someone promises to pay you in the future?) is riskier than signing short term deals. It could be become a house of cards. And obviously, I could be wrong and misguided too.
"It's incredibly hard." - Ronald Washington
No, there's certainly a chance
Especially with the growth of Hulu, onDemand, HBO, Roku, Netflix, MLB.com, Pirating (justintv), etc., TV has more competitors than ever.
At the same time, more people can afford televisions + cable more than ever, so we’ll see.
The risk
is the lack of diversification. That makes it risky. When you bet on one human being with a one-sided $250 million promissory note attached, you have no opportunity to fix potential pitfalls. The contract is a poor motivational tool and the $250 million is real money (like: 50 Latin prospect signings at $5 million each?).
"It's incredibly hard." - Ronald Washington
I'm with the Angels in betting he is not yet in decline.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
I still say this is a better deal (even with all of those risks) for the Angels
than Florida….can you imagine Pujols at “42” having to play 1B?
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 9, 2011 9:38 AM CST up reply actions
I thought Engel made an interesting point,
saying the Rangers seem to be following the Braves philosophy of letting guys on the wrong side of 30 walk. I wonder if there is any truth to that.
As for internal guys, I would put Kinsler and Napoli on the list of guys we need to extend in that order. If Napoli really has gotten better defensively as a catcher, he’ll definitely hit enough to be worth the money. Kinsler is one of the best players in the game. As for the other guys, it will depend on the cost.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 9:15 AM CST reply actions
They were having success
long after those guys had moved on. That’s a lazy statement to make.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 9:25 AM CST up reply actions
The Braves gave Maddux a 5 year deal and didn't start to lose anybody until they were
close to the finish line.
After losing two World Series in a row, they added a HOF pitcher (with a 5 year deal), traded for a border line HOF in the Crime Dawg and then brought up a HOF player in ’95.
We’re not the 90s Braves.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
We're not the 82 Brewers either,
but that doesn’t stop you…
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 9:30 AM CST up reply actions
HAH!
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 9:38 AM CST up reply actions
How many 'ships did the '82 Brewers win after going to the World Series?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
That wasn't the original point of your sig.
Don’t move the goalposts because you were wrong.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 9:51 AM CST up reply actions
You didn't answer the question, Woodcock.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
You never do.
Frustrating, isn’t it?
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
No reason to lie, Woodcock.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
I could create a poll if you want
and we can see if the majority agrees with you saying I’m lying.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:09 AM CST up reply actions
Go ahead...you said I never answer questions...that's absolutely false.
Do I answer every question? No
Do I see ever question thrown my way? No.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Cliches are boring.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
So are bad teachers.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Another reference to my personal life.
Sad, and again, scary…
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:20 AM CST up reply actions
What do you offer Napoli that makes him wanna sign this off-season?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
4/48
NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development
Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM
Round it up to 50...
and just give him what VMart got, I think he’d be willing to do that deal.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
yea for sure
NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development
Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM
V-Mart averaged over 4 WAR in the six seasons leading up to that deal
Napoli had never been over 3 before this past season. I’m a little worried we’re overeager to sign a guy coming off a career year, here.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
Well if you are paying him for his 2011 slash line you are offering him 150 mil heh.
Fangraphs WAR to $ conversion would have his previous 4 years as worth a total of 62 million including an off year and lesser playing time to counteract his career year.
There are some career years that seem to be nearly entirely driven by BABIP, and while Napoli had a good one (.344), he legitimately improved his walk, strikeout, line drive rates and such that should be generally sustainable.
His HR/FB% was 25.4 to his 19.5 career line.. but I’m not sure if thats luck, or just a combination of playing in Arlington and some legitimate improvement.
I think the Rangers should be able to support 4/50 for Napoli.. could be a steal, shouldn’t be more than a modest overpay. And since they arn’t going after a 1b there’s less of a concern for maximizing his at bats.
Too much
Northern Virginia's all time world champion Rangers fan of all time and all of Northern Virginia, and the rest of Virginia too. Mayor of Greatestfanville, Virginia.
Adam J Morris, halfassedly pretending to be interested in my thoughts, goals, and overall self esteem since late 2005.
by Brian Thomas on Dec 9, 2011 10:29 AM CST up reply actions
He shouldn't sign that...he's better than VMart
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
No
He had one better season than VMart
VMart had a track record and played a hell of a lot more than Napoli has ever played
Well, let him hit free agency...I think the Dodgers, with new ownership would
love to bring Napoli (who was very popular in So Cal) back to Los Angeles…..they’re going to be in a dog-fight with the Angels.
You’re not going to get a team-friendly deal with Napoli….especially if you’re going to lose Hamilton as well.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Ok fine
If he wants to be unreasonable then fine.
Like CJ last winter if he wants to bet on himself to go out and have another monster year and cash in then do it. But im not going to pay out the ass based on one year of performance and then be fucked when he comes back down to earth.
Im fine paying top dollar for guys with track records but one year wonders would not get top dollar from me.
I think a deal similar to VMarts with concessions for his final arb year and security of signing pre-FA would be more than sufficient. If he feels he can go out in 2012 and duplicate his 2011 then let him and if that means his price gets too rich next winter so be it
And then he walks.
You have to give him an offer he’s enticed to sign.
The players that give the team-friendly deals are those who haven’t seen any real big money…Kinsler and Young both did that.
Somebody like Napoli has one big contract in front of him…he’s probably banked what…$ 13-15 million so far….his next contract is going to be the one where he gets paid and I can’t see him giving a team-friendly deal nor should he.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
4/50 is not that team friendly.
Bautista signed 5/65 after a 54 HR year and people mocked the BlueJays for doing it.
Looks great right now, but it happened.
Joey Bats isn't a good defensive catcher either.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
There's tape on everybody right now...that was his rep
before coming to Texas but that’s not what we’ve seen.
Napoli was Piazza with defensive chops last year.
That’s worth more than VMart.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
If hes not enticed to sign a 4/45-50 right now then hes not signing for anything worth paying right now
4/45 for a guy with his track record is not “team friendly”
It could turn out to be but thats the risk both the team and the player take. if he comes back in 2012 and has a year like his career before 2011 suggests (something like a 800 OPS) hes not going to get anywhere close to a VMart deal
And then he walks and you get more draft picks.
Dynasty, my ass.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Yeah it would suck
But like with CJ I would be fine not committing too early on too big a deal.
If our players have enough confidence in themselves to go out and put up monster years looking for big contracts thats a good problem to have.
With a good 2012
I don’t think his free agent upside is so much higher than that that he would turn down the security of doing it now for a contending team he likes in a great ballpark to hit in.
I believe in his improvement (well, not the .320 average part)… his K/BB was a great sign… but a regression back to his career line would probably get him a 2 or 3 year offer as a 31 year old catcher/1b/dh.
I think Hamilton/Napoli are the two hardest cases to figure out, since they no longer have arb years left.
With a couple of arb years left, you can offer a bit over the arb years to get savings on the FA years. That’s no longer the case for Hamilton/Napoli.
Might wait a bit to see what other premium hitters are getting this offseason before determining what Napoli should get.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
Neither does Kinsler
Northern Virginia's all time world champion Rangers fan of all time and all of Northern Virginia, and the rest of Virginia too. Mayor of Greatestfanville, Virginia.
Adam J Morris, halfassedly pretending to be interested in my thoughts, goals, and overall self esteem since late 2005.
by Brian Thomas on Dec 9, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
Not sure.
I’ll let you know in January.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 9:25 AM CST up reply actions
Obvious exceptions have to be made.
A catcher that can hit that well is one of them.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 9:26 AM CST up reply actions
Good defensive catchers
usually age fine. I don’t expect him to hit that well every year.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 9:32 AM CST up reply actions
after an incredible run where we avoided consecutive losses
it now feels like we’ve had quite a few in a row.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
I don't think we lost two straight games in all of September and October....
Other than the last two. :(
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Scouting and Player Development
JD: “We need to stay at the forefront of scouting and player development, that is our best strategy.” Agree. Stay the course. Say No To: Barry Zito, Part Duh!
"It's incredibly hard." - Ronald Washington
I'm going to see how the offseason plays out before I do any cliff jumping
but if we end up “spending” prospects instead of dollars after two years of incredible success and a huge new TV deal, then our ownership can GFT.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
Bring back Rodney!!!!
I hate The Angels so much, it's actually cramping my style. (See RevHaloFans SBN profile page)
by Gay For Feliz on Dec 9, 2011 9:35 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Huh?
We’re not about sending messages. We’re about winning ballgames.-Wash, 04/03/11
Hell to the fucking no. -Wash, 10/07/11
heh....
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 9, 2011 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
Fare thee well, CJ Wilson
Except when you pitch…
I hate The Angels so much, it's actually cramping my style. (See RevHaloFans SBN profile page)
by Gay For Feliz on Dec 9, 2011 9:34 AM CST via mobile reply actions
I am having a sad over this (lack of) move on our part
The Angels now have arguably one of the best rotations in the league. Our rotation hopefully improves and maybe the Maddux brothers can help make our young guns more consistent.
CJ definitely was torn between staying and going – he had adopted our Texas culture. I honestly think he would have stayed had the Rangers offered a similar contract. Ultimately they forced him to leave. I’m not sure he was ever that serious about Miami. It was Angels vs Rangers.
Now that he has left, I have to say I am very proud of what he was able to achieve here in Texas. He was a hopeful starting prospect who was relegated to the bullpen and had some success which was limited by his elbow injury. The media painted him as a sour, whiny slacker over his elbow but the truth was he was given specious advice by the staff there to continue pitching with bone chips loose in his elbow – to do so probably would have ended his career.
I am an orthopedic surgeon in Houston. My group handles all the professional teams in Houston. I have served as his consultant since about 2008. Over those years I have seen him change from a mohawk-wearing recluse into a obsessively dedicated top athlete and strategic philosopher. The only thing I wonder now is if my changed perception of him was solely due to my preconceived prejudices about professional athletes. I realize now he hasn’t changed at all. He has always been a philanthropist, an adrenaline-junky, an intellectual, someone who rises to every challenge.
I know many folks here buy into the notion that he is flaky, cocky, arrogant etc. People who are motivated and driven typically are perceived that way by others who don’t really know them. He is very self confident but genuine and one of the best young men I know. I am sad to see him leave the Rangers but happy for him to get a new opportunity to succeed back in his hometown.
we're from Texas
CJ says "Relax"
by eclou on Dec 9, 2011 9:41 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
Well said. CJ is a class act and our team and area is poorer for losing him.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Thanks for your insight
As I wrote in my blog yesterday, I didn’t always like C.J., but he won me over. I’m going to miss cheering for him.
by The Best Micah on Dec 9, 2011 9:45 AM CST up reply actions
If you think this, it means the Rangers didn't want to give CJ the option of accepting a 5-yr contract.
I’m still torn whether it is the 5-yr part or 77.5M part that the Rangers didn’t want to do.
I’m still not sure I believe CJ when he says he was torn. We’ll never know. The Rangers didn’t want to find out. Either they thought it was a waste of time to put a contract in front of someone who was just going to say no or they didn’t want to give him the option to say yes. I tend to lean toward the former, no offense at your insider information, but it just isn’t enough to convince me.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
I think it is absolutely the latter...
But it feels better to think it is the former.
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 9:47 AM CST up reply actions
I also wonder if the Marlins hadn't jumped in whether the Angels would've gone to 5 years.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
Well...
unlike the Rangers, the Angels were doing what it took to get him. But, I’d assume so, yeah. This thing would still be going on until he at least got an offer for five years, I’d imagine.
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 9:50 AM CST up reply actions
I know. It's a moot point. The Marlins did what they did. We don't live in the alternate reality in which they didn't.
The Rangers had their best offer on the table a year ago, if they were unwilling to go 5 on CJ to keep him from the Angels.
I don’t know why CJ would expect the Rangers to go 5 years if that’s what he wanted to get out of the market.
This is one of those deals where I get both sides of the situation. The Rangers let him know a long time ago he wasn’t getting 5 years. CJ was confident that he was better than a 4-yr offer. In that sense, he wasn’t acting like a player that wanted to stay here, because we all know it’s a very rare player the Rangers will set the market for.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
I am tired of the "they forced him to leave" crap.
No one forced him. No one twisted his arm and made him sign with Anaheim. He chose the money. It isn’t wrong, and I’m not judging him, but he wasn’t forced at all.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:03 AM CST up reply actions
I don't think turning down 20 million guaranteed dollars to pitch in your home town...
Qualifies as “he chose the money”.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Sure he did.
He chose the money and the ability to pitch in his hometown and a lot of other things. I should have clarified that. However, the choice was still his. No one “forced” him to do anything.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:07 AM CST up reply actions
Well...
the Rangers didn’t offer him a contract. So…
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 10:04 AM CST up reply actions
They didn't offer him a contract
because they knew their offer wasn’t going to get it done. I want to drive a BMW, but since I don’t want to make the monthly payment, I don’t go to the dealer and make an offer. What’s the point?
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
Well
I think we’re really in the realm of what was a “reasonable” offer. Given the market for CJ, I don’t believe that our parameters can really be considered reasonable.
by Whiskey in my Whiskey on Dec 9, 2011 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
Well...
if you have no intention of keeping a player that seems genuinely interested in staying, and don’t even offer him a contract to stay, he’s going to be forced to look for another team to play for. Unless, we’re assuming C.J. would be the first player ever to say, “Sure, I’ll play for free! Love the heat!”
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
It wasn't for free.
Don’t be dramatic.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
Okay...
"Sure, I’ll play for way below market! Love the heat!"
That would also be the first time. Those things don’t happen. If the point is he wasn’t forced out because he didn’t accept the imaginary offer the Rangers didn’t make that would have been pointless because they didn’t want him, it’s easy to see why he had to start looking elsewhere.
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 10:14 AM CST up reply actions
Weaver just took well below market value.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:16 AM CST up reply actions
SoCal is an attractive place.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
And he wasn't on the free market...
and was told he could accept a very generous offer or be traded.
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 10:17 AM CST up reply actions
He would have been turning down about $40 million dollars to play here.
Instead he gets $20 million more to pitch in his home town for a team that is marginally as good and competitive (and clearly willing to improve their team and do what it takes).
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Anyone blaming CJ for cashing in on his last chance for a big payday is insane or blinded by fandom
It’s not like he bolted to a non-contending team just for a huge haul, anyway. He signed for a (relatively) modest contract for a contender. That contender just happens to be our main division rival, but does anyone think professional players really have that much attachment to their region/local fanbase, especially when the guy is returning to his home state?
I have nothing negative to say about CJ’s decision. I am, however, disappointed with our FO’s assessment of his importance to this team. I don’t agree that “CJ isn’t one of our core guys,” and I think we could’ve/should’ve matched Anaheim’s offer.
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 10:18 AM CST up reply actions
I didn't blame him.
And I’m not judging him. I simply said, no one forced him to do anything. Who chose the team? Who signed the contract? Both C.J. We all make decisions in life. He made his. He felt it was the right one for him, so I support it. Again though, he was not “forced” to do anything.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
It's nothing really
other than CJ and his camp putting out the they forced me to leave is annoying. Trading someone is forcing them to leave. His choosing another team is not being forced to leave, no matter the circumstances behind his choice.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:27 AM CST up reply actions
The Rangers didn't make an offer, Woodcock.
CJ had no other choice…he was forced to leave.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
The grown ups are talking.
Back to the kiddie table and no dessert.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:29 AM CST up reply actions
He's not altogether wrong though...
if the team you’re on doesn’t offer you a contract and doesn’t think of you as a core member, what are you supposed to do?
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
He had his chance to stay, but it was on the team's terms.
He could’ve taken the offer last spring, but chose instead to gamble on his ability to get something better.
He might’ve misread their ability to be competitive in the marketplace.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
I'm not wrong at all.
No offer was made so CJ had no other choice beyond Florida and LAAAAA.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
My point has been made,
you are fudging some of the facts and you know it. No need to go round and round.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:38 AM CST up reply actions
The no offer thing
isn’t 100% true and you know it. If you are going to stick to that gun, than there is no point in continuing. Rooster’s post above is correct. They made him an offer last year and told him what they were comfortable with this year. It wasn’t enough. He wasn’t forced.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
The no offer thing was mentioned by JD himself...
We also know now that the Rangers didn’t really consider him a part of the core. I’m not even debating the merits of that. If the Rangers feel that way, they feel that way and we’ll just see where they go from here. But it’s pretty clear that C.J. Wilson wasn’t in the Rangers plans. Other than not accepting a clearly low offer one year before free agency, I don’t know of any player that’s every been that altruistic. And once he hit the market, the Rangers didn’t really do anything to keep him. Which, again, probably was because he wasn’t in their plans.
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
It's nice to have JD explain these things.
CJ was a “guy” to the Rangers, not a “star”.
I could see why CJ would feel slighted, but I don’t feel bad for CJ considering what the alternate prize was.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
I feel bad for C.J...
He has to be an Angel now.
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
I hope he shits his pants in fear
of Napoli crushing him.
"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11
Hah
This brightens my day.
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 11:33 AM CST up reply actions
I completely agree.
This is part of an assignment of blame. And it is unnecessary. There is a place where bad things can happen and it not be anyone’s fault.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.
Grip that Umbrella.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Grip Nolan's shaft.
And don’t forget to Cup those Balls of Hindsight.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.
by Aqua on Dec 9, 2011 11:35 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Who says it's about assignment of blame, though?
We know the Rangers made a decision that C.J. wasn’t going to be a part of the team based on the market and C.J. looked for and found another option. It just kind of is what it is.
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
The other thing is that this is a risk-based process. CJ could have a great 3-4 years.
That doesn’t mean the Rangers messed up.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
I suppose that's where the faith and trust comes in...
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 11:38 AM CST up reply actions
yep.
It will be a long time before the Rangers are overexposed to risk.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
JD said this morning that if he feels like the Rangers
should go get a player, he has to make a presentation for the baseball side and the business side.
Apparently he didn’t feel like the Rangers should go after CJ.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
And he might be right...
But, I’d have offered the 5/$77.5. I guess we’ll see how it plays out. What else can we do?
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
Definitely have to see how the rest of the off-season plays
out but I hope we’re not taking a wrecking ball to our minor league system for Gio or Danks.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
The Rangers aren't.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
Thought I read somewhere today that they're
kicking the tires on Gio.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
it would be shocking if Marteen were part of that discussion.
If the Rangers really, really believed they could fix Gio’s BB/9, then I could stomach Marteen in that.
I would be shocked if that were the case.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
they are kicking the tires but they're not going to deal top prospects
just seein whats avail.
NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development
Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM
Greinke + Extension
is about the only major deal for SP that I’m interested in (of players we’ve heard are available at least).
Hamels + Extension would work
I can’t see Phillies doing that.
They should push for WS… they still have the staff to do it.
The ownership group and president is well aware of what CJ can do
The fact that he had to make a presentation to keep C.J. means they weren’t sold on him either.
by rangersfan32 on Dec 9, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
I think it means it would've pushed them over their payroll.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
The point you make is right, as is your interpretation.
I’m talking to the people that need a side to choose as if this was a battle to be won or lost between CJ and our FO. Their interests diverged. We can talk about whether those interests were right, and I’m sure we will, but that divergence led to a separation between the player and the team.
It’s annoying to me that people need someone to blame about this, whether it be CJ or the Rangers. Both sides did what they thought was right. Neither was malicious or attempted to screw the other.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.
Saying you were forced to leave
is assignment of blame. What else would it be?
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
Truth of the situation?
And if it is assigning blame, who am I assigning it to?
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 12:41 PM CST up reply actions
Honestly,
I don’t care who you assign blame to. My problem is with the CJ camp assigning blame. I said as much above.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 12:43 PM CST up reply actions
And I don't think he was doing that, but okay...
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 12:55 PM CST up reply actions
Than what was he doing?
If he wasn’t trying to assign blame, why bring it up? Why not just say, I enjoyed my time here and decided to move on to a better situation. Thanks to the Rangers for drafting me and allowing me to become a starter.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
He's saying the Rangers didn't offer him a contract so he signed with another team that did...
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 1:05 PM CST up reply actions
eclou said,
he was forced to leave. Matter of semantics I supposed.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 1:14 PM CST up reply actions
I don't understand the deal about CJ not being considered part of the core.
He set quite the example to the other starters these past couple of seasons.
Yes, you can thrive and survive in Texas but you have to be physically prepared and mentally tough.
How the fuck do you not match what the Angels gave him?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Call me paranoid (please, persuade me here), but I'm worried the "not one of our core guys" argument
is just a smokescreen for “we don’t have the money.”
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
I guess we'll see with who gets locked up/Darvish bid...
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 10:29 AM CST up reply actions
I'm assuming that Darvish, soup to nuts, is going to cost close
to $ 100 million….do you really see the Rangers taking that risk?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
That's why I was wondering if folks think Darvish is better than C.J., and my assumption is that the Rangers do feel like he is...
do the Rangers think Darvish is $100m vs. $77.5m better than C.J. is. Or would the posting be considered a one time expenditure that is just eaten and not factored into salaries going forward. That seems unlikely though. Cost is cost.
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 10:34 AM CST up reply actions
That's the question I asked a couple of weeks ago...
Judging from what JD just said, he will go to ownership and give an explanation for a decision based on a baseball and business side….I think JD goes in there and makes an argument that Darvish is younger with more upside and that they could get him for 4-5 years and $50 mil and that the posting fee should be considered separate from the actual contract
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 9, 2011 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah. I've wondered if the one-time-ness of the posting fee
makes it more palatable compared to spreading the risk of $77.5M over five years.
We’ll see, but it also appears the Yankees are going to bid.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
and you add in the some value
you gain from the japanese market, at least I’d assume that would be factored in
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Yankees have been way too quiet this off season.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
They're trying to trade AJ. I think that's the biggest signal.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
I can't see that saving them too much money
I’m not sure any team in the league wants that salary dumb.
Not saving money. Just freeing a spot.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
They don't really need to free a spot.
They had a bunch of guys off the garbage pile in their rotation last year (who mostly worked out annoyingly)
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
That might be what they have to resort to.
I don’t think they want to do that, as I don’t think they have much confidence in him at all.
Plus, AJ will not be happy. This is a way to avoid dealing with that fallout, which will be a nuisance.
It’s just cleaner to get a couple of prospects (which may have more value than AJ in the pen anyway) and open a spot than it is to move him to the bullpen.
That’s my best guess of Cashman’s thinking.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
Way high
35.
Northern Virginia's all time world champion Rangers fan of all time and all of Northern Virginia, and the rest of Virginia too. Mayor of Greatestfanville, Virginia.
Adam J Morris, halfassedly pretending to be interested in my thoughts, goals, and overall self esteem since late 2005.
by Brian Thomas on Dec 9, 2011 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
There's always one team that does something insane though, right?
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
That's usually how it works out
But I don’t see the numbers adding up for anybody at that total.
I think some people forget that other than Dice K, nobody else has even gotten half that number in a bid, and even Dice K only got one bid over 38.
Northern Virginia's all time world champion Rangers fan of all time and all of Northern Virginia, and the rest of Virginia too. Mayor of Greatestfanville, Virginia.
Adam J Morris, halfassedly pretending to be interested in my thoughts, goals, and overall self esteem since late 2005.
by Brian Thomas on Dec 9, 2011 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
Man...
Boston’s bid was so weird.
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
I think 30-35 is what every rational team will offer
If there’s one team that absolutely wants Yu, though, I think it goes higher.
That’s the problem with the blind posting. One team insists on getting him, and the paranoia makes their bid ridiculous.
We’ll see—maybe no one’s scouts have really come back raving, and the mania has just been media-driven.
In that case, I could see you being right.
I think $45ish.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.
Even worse is that
the 77.5 for CJ is 5 years and if Darvish is $50 posting/$50 contract its probably 4 years.
Pretty big difference in net annual cost.
But, my understand would be
That Yu would be under team control for 2 years after that, subject to arbitration.
Still expensive, but at least it’s something.
Didn't know about that thanks
I was wondering if thats why Daisuke was still in Boston, and I see his contract was actually 6 years for 52 million.
I guess if hes under control for the standard 6 years anyway Yu may sign for 6 as well.. but who knows what the actual total commitment will be.
Should be interesting anyway…
If Yu comes to the Rangers... the length of the contract does not determine his Free Agency.
He would be still subject to years of arbitration for any years not in the contract.
Unless he negotiates early Free Agency.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Right, but that being said
If we spend $100M for only 4 years, that’s still $25M per year, and he’ll get a hefty arbitration for the final two years, so your point is still there.
We just have a bit longer control.
They will probably make it a 3-4 yr deal with team options for yrs 4, 5 and 6
Northern Virginia's all time world champion Rangers fan of all time and all of Northern Virginia, and the rest of Virginia too. Mayor of Greatestfanville, Virginia.
Adam J Morris, halfassedly pretending to be interested in my thoughts, goals, and overall self esteem since late 2005.
by Brian Thomas on Dec 9, 2011 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
My biggest fear is the Mariners getting him
and then signing Prince.
They have the Asian market probably dwindling with Ichiro’s career coming to a close, and this would be the perfect way to rope them back in.
The SP in the AL West would just become laughable at that point.
M’s Roto of Felix, Pineda, Yu, Beaven?
Plus, Yu’s stuff would play well in that ballpark, since his main concern appears to be HR rates.
I forgot about the Mariners
Damn, that would make a lot of sense for them.
Northern Virginia's all time world champion Rangers fan of all time and all of Northern Virginia, and the rest of Virginia too. Mayor of Greatestfanville, Virginia.
Adam J Morris, halfassedly pretending to be interested in my thoughts, goals, and overall self esteem since late 2005.
by Brian Thomas on Dec 9, 2011 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
Hopefully the Angels frenzy
has made them more pessimistic of the immediate future and had a cooling effect on their bid.
Who knows.
That's the goofy part - no contract offered
I’m kinda getting sick of this negotiating strategy. “Tell us what you want and we’ll think about it.” Ain’t gonna work.
Football can go to hell. The Rangers aren't ready for football season and neither am I.
by WyoRanger on Dec 9, 2011 11:10 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, there's that little detail.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
That doesn't mean they forced him to accept another one.
CJ makes his own decisions, just like the Rangers. There is no bad guy where both sides decide to do something different. Where neither forced the other to do anything at all.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.
How do you feel about CJ saying the Rangers never offered him 4/48 and the only offer he received was last spring for 3 years?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
I seriously could not give less of a fuck.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.
You had quite a bounce to your step when it looked like my assertion
that the only thing we had heard was a three year offer in March had been proven wrong.
You just couldn’t wait to come in here and point out (“How did you feel!??!?!”)when it appeared (key word appeared) that Josey was wrong.
Yeah, I’ll beat my chest on this one…scoreboard, bitch.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
by Josey Wales on Dec 9, 2011 11:35 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
*facepalm
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
That was before CJ was officially gone.
And what CJ says now about what happened then is far from Gospel fact.
If you want to keep running this down day after day so you can spout your bullshit agenda, have at it. Nothing anybody here says is going to stop you.
And if you want to try to keep score on points that cannot possibly be proven, have at that, too. But you can take that scoreboard and shove it up your ass, worthless prick.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHHAHAHAHAA
Oh…..he mad.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
That'll show 'em!!!!!!!!!
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
STOP IT.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
Well...
you were the only one who replied now an hour later.
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 12:42 PM CST up reply actions
Good point.
I bet he’ll never do it again now.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 12:44 PM CST up reply actions
I guess next time I just won't say anything...
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 12:56 PM CST up reply actions
It has the same long term effect.
I do appreciate his stopping in the short term, though it’s kind of like building a levee after the hurricane.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
Nobody forced CJ to do anything.
He decided to leave based on what the teams offered. CJ has owned his decision and explained his reasoning. It makes sense, and I am not mad at him in the slightest.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.
You can't be mad at him...JD never offered CJ a contract after the season ended.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Good thing I said I'm not, then, isn't it?
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.
You're bitter about me be proven right about the 3 year deal in March
being the only offer CJ received.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Your concept of proof has no basis in reality.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.
Me neither,
and this was exactly my point. I’m fine with his decision, just stop playing the I was forced victim card.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 11:50 AM CST up reply actions
He didn't have an offer from the Rangers so he was forced out because
he had to choose between LAAAAAA and Florida.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Yeah
I have no problem with CJ saying he was forced out if we in fact didn’t tender him a offer.
Now if we had in fact made him a offer, even if it wasn’t close to being enough, then it would be different. If we offered 4/60 and CJ is saying he was forced out i’d be upset but since we apparently never offered a deal this winter CJ is right in saying he was forced out
CJ said this morning that he received a 3 year offer in the spring and nothing after that.
He was forced out by the Rangers.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Dude, he had an offer.
The Rangers FO told CJ agent that they would start around 4/60 but agent said we arent considering anything less than 5 years. So no, there was never an official offer but the Rangers knew they werent going past 4 years. CJs camp knew the Rangers would offer 4/60 and they decided that wasnt close. But he said that he had an offer and that “The Rangers were almost half what Miami offered” CJs exact words which indicates there was some form of an offer. So shut the hell up about there not being one. There was, and CJ said so.
Elvis has "shook up" Arlington!!
CJ said this morning he didn't have an offer from the Rangers.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Then he is lying or "forgetting" somewhere
I actually do some research to support my statements
“I was under the impression they were going to make a more serious run at me,” Wilson said of the Rangers. “The length of contract wasn’t there. The money wasn’t there.”
He said that the Rangers’ offer “was almost half.”
So the “length” of what contract if they didnt offer one? The “money” for what wasnt there? What was “almost half” Doesnt that imply that SOMETHING was discussed or offered? Granted, it may not have been a “formal offer” signed on an offers sheet, but CLEARLY from the statement of the one and only Christopher John Wilson, there was. No STFU.
Elvis has "shook up" Arlington!!
by thad728 on Dec 9, 2011 2:10 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Its been pretty well accepted that the Rangers didn't offer a deal
They may have talked parameters but from all accounts it seems like the Rangers talked parameters and then told CJ to come back to them when he has a offer and they’ll decide if they want to pursue further.
They talked parameters...I buy that but no offer was made.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
JW point is that CJ HAD or was FORCED to leave
And like i said, maybe there was no official offer but CJ CLEARLY knew what the Rangers would have done and that they did want him, if it fit their price, THAT HE WAS AWARE OF. CJ said very clearly, that whatever it would have taken for him to stay here, was half of what MIA offered. And he wasnt willing to stay for half. Fine. Good for him. Dont fault him one bit. But he wasnt forced. He made a decision, the correct one in my opinion for him, but was definitely not forced to do anything.
Elvis has "shook up" Arlington!!
What if what CJ was referring to when he said "half of Miamis" was the 4/48 that was reportedly offered last spring?
If the Rangers didn’t offer or their offer wasn’t serious (by that I means not in line with what other teams were offering) then I dont think its unfair to say he was forced out.
If we had made a competitive offer and he chose to go elsewhere thats one thing but if we dont offer at all and all we do is talk parameters and say “let us know” then we did kinda force him out
CJ said 3 years this morning..the parameters that may have
been discussed without giving him an official offer might have been 4/48, just guessing.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Its possible
The fact is none of us on this message board are privy to the details so all we have to go on is speculation and whats reported.
None of us can definitively say whether or not CJ was actually offered a deal or if only parameters were discussed.
CJ confirmed what Norm talked about last spring...a 3 year offer.
This off-season, the only thing mentioned were parameters.
CJ met the 4/48 head on – said he read about that offer being made and said that was simply untrue.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Some of the buoys that Rangers fans attach themselves to (like
CJ wasn’t forced to leave") crack me up.
He’s gone…the Rangers didn’t want him or they would have made him an offer this off-season…he had no other choice and was forced to go somewhere else.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
So how was he forced when there was an offer
Or parameters of a deal around 4/48?? If CJ WANTED SO BADLY to stay here, he could have taken 4/48 or 4/60 or whatever those parameters were. He didnt want to take the low of a deal, so he chose elsewhere.
Elvis has "shook up" Arlington!!
If you believe 4/48 was a fair offer in this market then fine theres no point discussing this with you
Now if we did in fact offer 4/60 thats a different story although I think its still on the “we tried” side of things not the serious offer side.
But talking parameters is not officially offering anything in my eyes so that has little to do with things. You can talk parameters all day but if nothing is narrowed down and finalized thats all it is…parameters
Again, matter of semantics.
Let’s say I go to the car dealership to buy a Mercedes. I walk in and tell the dealer I only want to pay this much a month max. He says, in order to buy the car, best I can do is this much a month. If I decide that is too much, I leave. The dealer didn’t force me to leave. I chose to leave.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 2:30 PM CST up reply actions
If you go in and say
The most I can pay per month is this and he comes back with the lowest I can go is this then yeah you were pretty much forced to leave.
You weren’t physically forced but you could wait around all day/night and nothing about the situation would change.
With CJ he may not have been forced to sign elsewhere but if the Rangers were not going to make a fair offer or any offer at all then he was forced to go elsewhere
No,
I could choose to accept the numbers he gave me and buy the car. I’m not mad at him for choosing Anaheim, I’m just tired of the victim card being played.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 2:35 PM CST up reply actions
If you could not afford the numbers he presented you then you would be forced to leave
And I think thats what this comes down to. When all this started we were under the premise that we could afford CJ regardless of where he signed it would come down to us deciding if we wanted to sign him.
Now though, after all thats been reported and said, it appears we simply couldn’t afford him in which case he was forced to go somewhere else
Distinction without a difference.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.
He's just following me around with his shovel.
Pay him no mind.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 2:13 PM CST up reply actions
this is exactly right
him saying there was ‘no offer’ is disingenuous
maybe it wasn’t the offer he wanted, and maybe there wasn’t a formal contract written up, but they obviously discussed parameters enough for him to know that the Rangers were half of something???
And just to clarify
I’m not happy that our FO couldn’t/wouldn’t pay CJ his market value to keep him here
But he wanted market value and that’s why he’s gone. He was only forced in the sense that the Rangers FO decided not to allocate market value $’s to a front of the rotation homegrown starter.
Any guess as to what the Rangers will bid on Yu?
I have a feeling they’re planning to make a big push to get him.
Would he fit in here with his giant ego?
I wanna touch Yu.
It's not going to happen.
GOTTA WORRY ABOUT OUR OWN PLAYERS.
"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11
by vfn on Dec 9, 2011 9:45 AM CST up reply actions
Now there was no reason you had to go
and punch me in the mouth and take my marbles.
I’m going home.
As long as they arn't specifically writing him off like Prince I've got hope they will take a reasonable shot
But even if they are in, its still so random with blind bidding.
Yeah, there's no doubt that we placed a bid
But who knows if it was something pathetic like $10M or whether they are really going for it and posted something around $40M.
What I don't get is
If I’m the Angels, I’d lock up Fielder before Pujols. He’ll be cheaper and better IMO from here on out. I think we’ve seen Pujol’s best, and he’ll also be playing well over half his games on West Cost sea level parks with that cool marine layer at night, so expect a power dip beyond the usual age-related decline.
Baseball's hard, guys. I mean, it really is. You can love it but, believe me, it don't always love you back. It's kind of like dating a German chick, you know?
The more I think about it the more I believe Pujols played into their new TV deal
Fox will now be getting to show Pujols as he chases all the records he looks to break over the next few years. Fielder may have been the better bet for prolonged top performance due to age but Pujols brings so much more to the table
Yep. Revenue is why you go with Pujols rather than Fielder, especially in that huge Latin market.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
If you're going big like that, go with Pujols
he’ll bring in the fans, and you can add legacy to your team with his HR chase.
Also, short-term, he’s a lot better than Prince.
So I wanted the Rangers to re-sign Wilson
but I never could get away from the feeling that Wilson’s upside is really what we saw last year – he’s not going to become Cliff Lee at this age – and his downside is pretty bad. I’m not saying that this will become a Chan Ho Park or AJ Burnett contract, but there is at least a fat tail on that side of the distribution. I would have matched that offer, but I can fully buy an argument about why the Rangers did not.
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
I agree with this....
Who’s to say the FO felt they got CJ’s best years and it was time to move on and start using what they’ve been building….a strong to very strong group of prospects in the minors.
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 9, 2011 9:57 AM CST up reply actions
I agree with this.
I feel like both sides can have valid arguments. Almost like there is no wrong side to this story.
by kchorton on Dec 9, 2011 10:12 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
My only problem is "now"
I want them to be good now. But I can understand the logic. If Hholland takes a predictable step forward and Feliz is decent it won’t even out but it won’t hurt too much. I’m thinking this is a Beane strategy. Take a third of the season to determine needs.
Football can go to hell. The Rangers aren't ready for football season and neither am I.
by WyoRanger on Dec 9, 2011 12:38 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Just about to post that.
The Rays have authored another precedent-setting contract, locking up 22-year-old phenom Matt Moore for at least five years, according to ESPN’s Jerry Crasnick. Moore has just 17 days of big league service time (plus ten innings in the postseason), but the Rays committed $14MM for Moore’s next five seasons. The contract is reminiscent of the Rays’ April 2008 commitment to Evan Longoria, but is the first of its kind for a pitcher. Moore’s guarantee is easily a record for a pitcher with less than a year’s service time, and it also tops any pitcher who signed with less than two years service. The Rays have club options covering Moore’s third arbitration year and first two free agent years. If those are exercised, the deal could be worth $37.5MM over eight years, and it could exceed $40MM with escaltors. Moore is represented by Matt Sosnick along with Jon Pridie and Adam Karon of Sosnick Cobbe Sports.
My take: the contract makes sense for both sides. Moore is widely regarded as a future ace, with three plus pitches and a strikeout-heavy resume. But as a player who signed for $115K after being drafted in the eighth round in 2007, the guaranteed money would have been difficult to turn down. Though Longoria’s contract is considered the most team-friendly in baseball, it wasn’t without risk at the time it was signed. That risk is heightened for the Rays since Moore is a pitcher.
The Rays are unlikely to lose money on Moore’s contract. The worst case scenario is Moore missing significant time due to injury. For example, Brett Anderson signed a deal with the Athletics for a $12.5MM guarantee with just one year of service. With Anderson battling injuries since that deal was signed, the A’s might overpay by a few million for his first two arbitration years. They retain club options on his third arbitration year and first free agent season and could still come out ahead, but Anderson probably does not regret the contract. Even as a small agency, Sosnick Cobbe Sports has its own examples of "sure thing" starters whose careers were derailed, including Jesse Foppert and Dontrelle Willis.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
From MLBTR
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
"The Rays have club options covering Moore’s third arbitration year and first two free agent years."
Good god, Rays.
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 10:07 AM CST up reply actions
They are very good at what they do.
Andrew Friedman can be my GM any time.
I’m happy with JD… but I wouldn’t kick Friedman out of bed for eating crackers if we were single.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
I would...
Get back out there and lock up some players, Friedman. Why are you in my bed?
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 10:09 AM CST up reply actions
How in the hell does he do this?
How do those years become a club option?
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
Why cant our GM do this?
If our plan is to in fact lock up our own what is taking so damn long?
Why cant we get deals done as quickly as other clubs seem to?
Who do we have that is as much a sure thing as Matt Moore and Evan Longoria?
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Im not talking about just with our young guys
Im talking about anyone. it seems we like to wait until close to spring training to start offering extensions and by then guys are focusing on the year ahead and not really in negotiating mode.
I’d like to see or hear about some stuff going on with Elvis, Kins, Holland, Harrison, Napoli right now
Holland might be to that point. He's not as early in the arb process as either of those two.
Think the Rangers can buy out 3 arb years to get club options for two free agency years on Holland?
That’s a 4-yr contract (2012 plus arb years in 2013, 2014, 2015) with two club option years for 2016, 2017. They certainly wouldn’t do it straight up as a six-year contract, given their recent offers to Lee/CJ. But, maybe they would do it with club option years for years 5 and 6.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
IT would cost a lot
The reason it’s beneficial to Moore is because he has 3 years of $500k contracts (in which he has a very large injury risk) before he can be set for life.
Now, he’s set for life no matter what happens.
If I were making an offer to Holland now...
I’d probably offer something like that.
Around $30m or so.
Something like $14m for his pre-arb years and another $16m for the two option years.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Only 8 mil per for his first 2 FA years?
Or 16 mil each?
I dont think theres any way he gives up his FA years for only 8 mil per
With 4 years till then?
And a guaranteed $14m?
Maybe not… but he’s still in slave labor mode and Holland could still flame out. Holland isn’t Matt Moore.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Holland is at the point where his performance dictates his salary
Hes 3 years away from the biggest payday of his life
I highly doubt he would sign away not one but 2 of those FA years for only 8 mil per and push his big payday back another 2 years.
Maybe if you had offered that back a couple years ago
What would you offer Holland?
Because that’s as much as I feel comfortable giving him.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Well hes a league minimum guy this year
So:
2012: 500K
2013: 3 mil
2014: 5 mil
2015: 7.5 mil
2016 &2017 (club options): 12 mil each
Thats a possible 6/40 offer if both club options get exercised.
I came up with similar numbers...
And give the Rangers a discount because of the guarantee.
I don’t see any reason to guarantee all three arb years for what they probably will be (unless he just goes off like Tim Lincecum) without the Rangers getting a better discount than that.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
$12m a year is still a lot for a FA pitcher.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Not really
Not for a 30 year old left handed FA pitcher
7.5 mil is what CJ made after one year as a starter in his last arb season. If Holland keeps pitching and developing like we expect 7.5 mil will be a pretty big discount. He likely will be looking at 10-12 mil that last arb if we keep going year to year
Well... I don't hate your deal.
It’s more than I’d like though… We can meet in the middle and gurantee $15m now and another $20m in options.
Someone call Holland’s agent and let him know bigsteve and I worked it out.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Especially in 5 years....
Who knows what the market will be for a pitcher like Holland in 5 years.
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 9, 2011 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
Well the Rangers did get pretty good extensions on Face and Kins way back when.
Wouldn’t Kinsler be a free agent right now without his deal? At least after 2012.
Kinsler was pre-JD right?
And are you talking about Youngs 5/80 or his previous deal which was pre-JD?
Previous.
But yeah you are right, not really relevant to the current regime. Just came to mind.
I think the lack of JD extensions has more to do with the roster though. The position players that have come in under his watch have not been as obviously extension candidates at all… many of us don’t want to extend Cruz and Hamilton right now for reasons that have always existed. CJ only became a guy you’d want to extend when he was close enough to free agency that he may not have been particularly open to it.
How many obvious extension candidates have there really been under JD’s watch? Andrus perhaps?
Right now there are some, and its all the FO is talking about so we’ll see.
Yeah mainly Elvis, Neffy, Holland
Seems like we are now too far along to get real value out of any extensions. they may give up some money for security but its not going to be nearly as team friendly as it could have been if we locked them up a couple of seasons ago.
Of course ownership played a big part in that as well.
Maybe once MPer and NeRa and then Profar come up we can see our FO do some of these type deals.
Imagine if we had Elvis, Neffy, and Holland locked up for the next 5 years at reasonable rates how we could easily see if Prince would fit into our payroll
Cuz he becomes a free agent right about the time
the MF Yankees will be putting Jeter out to pasture.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Don't get me wrong--I could definitely see this
But, he’ll have to improve his bat to attract the Yankees interest, imo.
We’ll see, but the skills he’s depending on right now aren’t going to keep up in his mid-30’s. I can’t see him getting some enormous contract until he can find a way to get his SLG into the 400’s.
Well
They may be pre-JD as GM, but as AGM JD was the guy who negotiated those contracts.
Northern Virginia's all time world champion Rangers fan of all time and all of Northern Virginia, and the rest of Virginia too. Mayor of Greatestfanville, Virginia.
Adam J Morris, halfassedly pretending to be interested in my thoughts, goals, and overall self esteem since late 2005.
by Brian Thomas on Dec 9, 2011 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
What are the Rays players getting on the side? There's got to be some sort of NCAA football-like
side activity going on to get these guys to agree to a club option during their FA years.
So, I’ll have to do the math as an earnest assessment. They aren’t getting things on the side, most likely, they’re just getting much more up front and still have the possibility of a big contract later on.
He’s found the sweet spot. Holland/Harrison are in the sweet spot. Is Andrus past it?
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
Its financial security to a young guy who has very little exposure to the major leagues
They havent had much time to figure out the system or anything and you offer them a guaranteed amount of money its hard to pass up.
Its harder to do as they get closer to arb and FA because they know the game now and know that their performance dictates their future salary
They have agents who know the system.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
Nah. Their payroll can stretch a little, especially since they'll be capped in the draft next year.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
Yeah the new rules may keep him there this year
But I think he gets too expensive for them and the uncertainty is the real kicker
You've already been hoping for that for weeks.
With zero reason other than speculation.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.
Did you read the DRaysBay post about it
They seem to believe Price will be moved either this year or next due to the cost uncertainty factor with him as well
Im not the only one who feels like the Rays value that tremendously and may look to move Price due to that fact
DPrice is on my list of targets.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
As he should be
Its going to cost a shit load but hes under control for four more years and that would be worth it in my mind.
trade for Price and sign Prince and this club vaults back to division favorites for not only 2012 but 2013 and beyond IMO
What do you give up for Price?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
I dont know yet
It would obviously involve Perez
If they felt Olt could transition to 1B easily and his bat would play he may be a piece to include.
If they viewed Ogando as a late inning reliever he may be a piece
And then you get to the lower level upside guys that may really hurt in a few years but may also never blossom and it would probably take 2-3 of those as well.
I think you can do it without giving up Profar because TB has several up the middle guys already and thats not really a area of dire need and Profar would actually be excess. I know it should never come to that but a team like TB I could see going with other guys who fill other holes if they are highly enough regarded
If you're signing Prince, you give them Moreland (they wanted Moreland last year
as part of a Garza deal), Perez, Profar and probably Olt.
They get a player that can help them at the major league level in Moreland and then Perez, Profar and Olt all come up in 2-3 years.
I don’t like the long-term prospects of the morbidly obese Prince or what he will cost plus I know he will be a DH by 2014 but if you add both DPrice and Prince, that helps cover the weakness of not having enough players / pitchers 23-28 years old.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
I dont know if they would want Moreland still this year
If they did I would certainly include him.
But I think you can get by without losing Profar like I said given TBs farm makeup by adding a couple high ceiling lotto type guys. Maybe a Alfaro and LuJack or something like that
Oh and please stop shoehorning something about Prince’s size into every single conversation regardless of the topic. We all know your feeling on the subject theres no need to re-spew the same shit in every post unwarranted
What need do you have for Moreland if Prince is here?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
None really
He could possibly be a backup 4th OF if you needed
But I dont know how TB feels about him now as opposed to a year ago. He had a bad year in 2011 and is coming off a injury that its unknown how it will affect his swing/power.
If TB wanted Olt it would be as a 1B given Longoria is their 3B so they may not need/want Moreland. If they did it would be very easy to include him
Perez and Profar plus
is my guess. Friedman does not get cheated.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 1:47 PM CST up reply actions
If you're not extending Josh, you need to go all-in for 2012
and if that means giving up Profar as part of the package for Price, you do it.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Yeah, if you can but you don't let it become the wall you can't get thru.
If we don’t extend Josh, we have to go all-in for 2012.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Yeah I wouldn't NOT trade for Price bc of Profar
That’s just the one guy in our system I’d break my back to avoid including.
just tuned in
something about being burned by long term pitching contracts…didn’t want to go there with anyone.
No one wants to go there
doesn’t mean they won’t. See Beltre, Adrian.
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
Fuck you then JD, and Nolan
Stop being pussies about a extra year at a very reasonable price
Or at least be honest with us and tell us we dont have money to spend
JD does sound really down.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
This "misplay" might very well be Nolan's baby.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
True ninjas don't blame Nolan.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
None taken!
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
NOLAN'S BABY !!!
NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development
Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM
JD said that.
Is this a rift emerging between JD and Nolan?
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
But, who is "they".
If JD is really sounding sad, I’m wondering if he wanted to match but Nolan didn’t.
The slip up by Ron also leaves me wondering about this.
Pure speculation, but the thought is in my mind after JD admitting they could’ve had him. I’m still wondering if it is the “5-yr” or “77.5M” that they didn’t want to do.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
Then they dont have the money?
If they are running this club strictly off revenue thats fine and a great business model but it also limits their ability in stuff like FA.
Which is fine if they would just be honest and up front but instead we have heard a lot about this new tv deal in the works and we’ve had ownership come out and speak about spiking payroll 40-50% in the next few years.
I get miffed when I think about Bob Simpson...
Saying they would dip into the owners pockets to keep our talent level high and asking the fans to help support them too!
Not seeing the two way street this off season. I did see an invoice asking me for money though.
That’s all cliche’d and I don’t REALLY feel that way… but emotionally I’m a little disappointed.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Are you talking about that interview he gave?
That’s what I’ve been thinking about during all of this….currently, it concerns me. It also puts the thought in the back of my mind that this ain’t over yet.
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 9, 2011 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
Yes... that's what I'm talking about.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
That's the other possibility. The Rangers really just didn't have enough money.
It would suggest 5-yr is OK, but it would be a pretty shoddy 5-yr offer, given the best rumored deal for CJ from the Rangers was 4/60. The 5-yr deal would’ve looked something like 5/60 or 5/65.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
JD is pretty stoic
Are you sure he sounds sad and not just like his usual all-business self?
Serious question.
by The Best Micah on Dec 9, 2011 10:26 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed on the stoicism but he sounded a little down to me.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Yeah, it would surprise me if JD were letting his emotions show
on a Friday morning radio interview.
IMO, he sounded no different than he usually does.....
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Dec 9, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
I thought he sounded like he always does
The cool, calculating Ninja who doesn’t get emotional about business decisions.
And I don’t see why everyone is assuming that Nolan was somehow the one who didn’t want CJ. If anything I believe JD is the one who knows the numbers don’t support giving older pitchers longer-term contracts.
These make good pies.
And Jerry Layne sucks goats.
by Thought_Experiment on Dec 9, 2011 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
"We still believe in Mitch Moreland."
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Makes one of us
It could happen—I’m not counting him out. But when they say “believe,” I have to think they just mean they believe he can be a 2 WAR player
I like him and think he can be a 20-25 HR / .800 OPS player...he's not a game-changer but he's
a very nice player to have hitting 7-9 in your line-up.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
A wrist injury seems to me to lessen the likelihood he can develop into that type of player or
even have a single season like taht.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
Isn't that what Derek Lee went through?
He was never the same, but it’s tough to say because he was old.
Pujols broke his wrist last season
and he turned out ok
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
I think Derek Lee's decline had a lot to do with age
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Granted he was worse prior to the injury
But he was never quite prime pujols during the regular season.
No, he wasn't as good as he has been in previous years
and that goes for all of last season
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
But we all know Albert has super-Wolverine healing powers
*cough cough
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
I think it's so weird that he's exempt from steroid/HGH speculation
My personal feeling is so confident he’s used, that it’s over 90% to me.
I'm kind of happy that there hasn't been
Enough players get accused as it is. I want the suspicions to go down and to not hear about the all-time greats getting screwed out of the HOF because of steroids.
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
I agree and have said something similar for awhile
He’s a big bodied guy anyway, but he’s also a guy who before his first year in the majors was always a long shot to make it. He wasn’t recruited hard, wasn’t drafted high, was never thought of as someone who would develop the elite talents he has. Those are often the guys that get lured to anything that will give them an edge. Slippery slope.
I'm not really implying he's using PEDs
quite frankly because I’m bored with that whole discussion.
I’m more pointing out the breathless “wow, Albert is such an incredible athlete! He even heals faster than most human beings!” talk that was pouring from ESPN after Pujols’ supposedly season ending wrist injury kept him out for less than a few series.
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
Because it's ridiculous to act like he has some kind of super-human healing ability
It’s much more logical to assume the damage to his wrist was exaggerated (the ole’ “eye test” method of “oh DAMN, that looked like it hurt! He’s writhing on the ground, he must be done for the season”). Maybe even misdiagnosed by the Cardinals medical staff.
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
by WildcatPhoenix on Dec 9, 2011 11:40 AM CST up reply actions
JD being asked about finances and just repeated the question a la Sandusky to Ben & Skin.
“We look at everything on an individual basis.”
“Could we do what Angels did yesterday? No.”
Said they could go to ownership and explain themselves from the business side and the baseball side.
I get the feeling we don’t have near as much payroll as we thought we might.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
What's his thoughts on the Center Field lounge?
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
Not a dime.
Reading from the press conference of this thing, the cf lounge is costing the team any money, there was another source for that, the concessions people or something
by rhino baseball on Dec 9, 2011 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
No, its not.
When a concession company renews a contract with a team, they typically give that team a signing bonus that is used and can only be used for concession upgrades. That is what this is.
by rhino baseball on Dec 9, 2011 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
Listening to JD talk
tells you exactly zero about what he’s planning to do. There’s a reason he’s called the Ninja.
Why don't you have a nice big cup of shut the fuck up? - Lisa W 3/4/2011
I'm starting to think we won't be doing anything this offseason.
I don’t have a good feeling about 2012 all of a sudden.
I hope I’m wrong.
Honey Badger don't give a shit!
I compared him to Sandusky based on how he answered the question.
I’m fine with JD right now…he’s done well the last couple of years but everything about the CJ Negotiations are a huge fuck-up….now he needs to fix it.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
I'm just saying
There’s a ton of question-dodgers to choose from—like anyone in the national debates.
But you went straight to serial-rapist. I’m not mad, I was impressed with the subtle propaganda.
by Jobu. on Dec 9, 2011 10:29 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Its in just about every post of his
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
OT: Greg Maddux
I can’t remember if Maddux EVER hit 90 MPH on the radar gun? Is there a site that shows that sort of data?
"It's incredibly hard." - Ronald Washington
I remember him hitting it.
He worked low 90’s. 91-92.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
He did plenty in his first go-round Chicago days...
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
He chose not to
This is not the ball you are trying to hit…..
"A lot of people may not know this, but I happen to be quite famous." - Sam "MayDay" Malone
i don't know about that
i remember an interview with him later in his career where he said he’s still throwing as hard as ever, it’s just not going as fast.
Why did Nolan let CJ walk?
I still don’t understand why he didn’t just step in and take care of that situation. Maybe he should go back selling headache pills.
"A lot of people may not know this, but I happen to be quite famous." - Sam "MayDay" Malone
Pathetic
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Provide an example.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
I don't feel like searching through your comments
But how many times have you entered a thread, where the first thing you post is something deriding JD with instigation in mind?
If I'm critical with JD, it's always with cause.
When you say “this is exactly what you do a lot of the time…” you should probably have some examples.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
I'm here almost every day, and I see you do it
That’s enough for me.
I think you have just as much cause as SoRed making up a narrative to blame Nolan, here. He’s talking out of his ass, but it’s feasible that JD wanted to go 5 and Nolan nixed it.
So you have nothing.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
come the fuck on....you do it everyday.
NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development
Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM
If I was CJ
I would just say… “dont get mad at me… rangers didnt make an offer”
/drop the mic and walk out
"God dammit TAG I swear to God if you keep this "It was a close play" shit up all night I will send you cookies made from my own shit" -River Fenix 8/26/2011
"this is a big reason I decided not to convert to Islam now if it was 72 skanks? Different story, my friend" Bob Loblaw 9/2/2011
by I am Neftali Feliz on Dec 9, 2011 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
That's what he said yesterday on their show.
And then again this morning on facebook.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
But he totally could have stayed for 3 years at $15 dollars an hour!
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 11:13 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
A 3-yr deal last spring would not have been a bad signing by CJ.
He would’ve had some security, and he would’ve hit the market at age 32, just a few months older than Buerhle hit the market this offseason.
Still, he did the right thing to bet on himself and hit the market, it turns out.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
I wonder
Will C.J. be able to find a radio show out in LA that kisses his ass as much as B&S do?
"A lot of people may not know this, but I happen to be quite famous." - Sam "MayDay" Malone
Probably one of the best parts about waking up and being C.J. Wilson today...
was knowing how loved he’s going to be in the OC.
by ghostofErikThompson on Dec 9, 2011 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
Well...
CJ just said he never saw a 4/48 offer from the Rangers. They offered 3 years last spring and that’s it.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
It's pretty cool how much information we're getting from CJ and JD.
Also, I thought Bob Nightengale’s article on Pujols had a lot of cool information in it about who offered what and why Pujols continued looking.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
Yep
And he said it wasn’t 100% lock to resign even if Rangers matched (I think that was the PC answer, so to not piss off the new teammates)
Dear lord no
Buster_ESPN Buster Olney
Rangers are among teams talking Gio Gonzalez; two teams would seem to match up, with someone like lefty prospect Martin Perez.
I wonder if the Rangers think they have some tangible clue on how to lower his BB/9?
Still, this rumor comes after the Garza rumor. I’m not all that excited about losing Marteen for this guy.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
I expected to see a disparity between home and away stats
with him pitching in that black hole in Oakland but his home and away splits are pretty even.
The 4.4 BB/9 would be a killer though.
And losing a top prospect + for him would be idiotic imo.
Should have just paid CJ.
by Pocket Ninja on Dec 9, 2011 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
I doubt JD moves Marteen for Gio, even with all the arb years he has left.
They would have to really feel like they could fix that BB/9 if they moved Marteen, because, then, Gio basically becomes what we all hope Marteen will be.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
That would be so infuriating
To give up Marteen +, just to avoid spending money, when CJ has the higher ceiling, anyway.
Didn't they ask for Perez Garcia and Olt in return for Bailey
I can’t imagine what they’ll ask for Gio.
by RangersfaninROK on Dec 9, 2011 12:16 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Why is the Greinke market so quiet?
"...out of the shadows of unprecedented success, the sun shines down upon this team waiting to thrill anew." - ghostofErikThompson
The Brewer's want to win next year.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
The Rangers aren't in on that market either.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
I wish SF can't extend Cain
Then he’ll hit FA market after next season. I seriously dig that guy.
by RangersfaninROK on Dec 9, 2011 12:14 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I'd rather Hamels :)
or just rather our SP’s all continue growth with Marteen stepping in for Colby without a hitch.
Yeah that'd be nice too
Neffy hitting his ceiling and Marteen settling in the rotation.
by RangersfaninROK on Dec 9, 2011 12:18 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I'm afraid I'm way too optimistic on Feliz
He might be my favorite Ranger, and I really think he can put it together in the rotation.
We all have fears that he’ll be a 5-6 IP starter next year, but if the Maddux brothers can find a way to convince him to trust his stuff (especially after having a bad inning or two), there’s no doubt that he has the stuff.
I may be in the same boat.
But I really believe the Rangers wanted him in the rotation last year but felt they had no choice. That they thought he could be successful then and wanted it to happen.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011, in response to me saying I would rather face the Thunder than the Grizzlies in the WCF.
It'll be fun to watch at the very least.
I wonder if given his mentality (reports that he couldn’t go back out there in Game 6), if becoming a starter would be great for him.
He can finally afford to give up a 2-run double, or a HR.
Also, he looked like he was finally learning how to pitch after the Molina talk last year.
Which Rangers fan isn't optimistic on him?
We all hunger for that top-of-the-league dominant ace that we never had. Neffy’s been acknowledged by many to possess the potential to become just that.
by RangersfaninROK on Dec 9, 2011 12:33 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Cain would probably get lit up in RBiA
"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11
Yes... fuck a bunch of Cain.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
I think he'll prove to be better than Lincecum in the long run
And that he’ll be just fine in our park. But each to his own opimion I guess.
by RangersfaninROK on Dec 9, 2011 12:35 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I wonder if yesterday was just the karmic bitchslapping we deserved for all the schadenfreude sandwiches we ate last year
I don’t know about you guys, but personally I bookmarked HH on my phone just so I could partake in daily laughter at the suffering of Halo fans. Never actually posted (don’t wanna contract internet syphilis), but still….
…nah, fuck it. Division’s still ours. Optimism, engage!
"Winning the World Series is like getting the star in Mario Brothers. You run around flashing and invincible and nobody can fucking touch you."- matchst1ck
So, JD always has Plan A, Plan B, Plan C... Sometimes he has Plan A and Plan A (Adam&Uejera).
CJ was not Plan A. He apparently wasn’t Plan B or C or D. He was Plan “we got crazy lucky that he didn’t want to go to market”.
What is JD’s Plan A?
It seems odd that Plan A would be to move Feliz to the rotation.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
He's probably comfortable with
1. Colby
2. Holland
3. Harrison
4. Ogando
5. Feliz
Don’t know if I would be, but hey. We’ve also got Perez and Ramirez pushing for next year as well. Might view this as a transition year, who knows with the ninja.
by rangersfan32 on Dec 9, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't expect Perez to push for a ML roto job next year.
"...out of the shadows of unprecedented success, the sun shines down upon this team waiting to thrill anew." - ghostofErikThompson
What if he puts up a 8.0 / 3.0 / 0.7 slash line in AAA next year?
Don’t you think he gets a chance in ST 2013?
Well, yeah
I guess I should clarify… he’ll push I just don’t think it prudent to expect him as a viable option for 2012.
"...out of the shadows of unprecedented success, the sun shines down upon this team waiting to thrill anew." - ghostofErikThompson
Looking at that rotation written out
I suddenly miss CJ more.
by RangersfaninROK on Dec 9, 2011 12:12 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I have a hard time believing they're comfortable with this rotation.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
It's a fine looking rotation if you can couple it with a dominant bullpen, great defense, and great offense.
Go get Thornton and/or Marshall. Surely we can afford a $6M player, in Thornton, and he shouldn’t cost very much in prospects.
Agree. I think that's why we keep asking for Bailey
He’s not going to be worth what the A’s will demand from us, mind.
by RangersfaninROK on Dec 9, 2011 12:28 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I'm not particularly sad that CJ walks away..
Feliz is one of the best pitchers of the Rangers, and he will be able to contribute to the starting rotation. That said, I’m a bit disturbed that the Front Office never really attempted to retain CJ.
And the rotation has a lot of question marks now. Will Colby bounce back from a subpar season? Was Ogando’s lackluster second half performance really because of exhaustion, or because teams caught up to him? Will we get the good Holland or the bad Holland? Will Feliz actually have a good season? When you compare that to a rotation of Weaver, Haren, and CJ, ours looks like it’s ready to crumble in any minute.
I don’t doubt the Rangers will have a good opportunity to reach the playoffs, even more with the extra playoff spot. And the mammoth contract for Pujols in all probability will end up being more of a burden for the Angels down the road. But.. It’s just that.. In the last two years the Rangers really owned the AL West. We had that thing on a chokehold. Next year? I don’t see it so clear anymore.
Just sayin...
•Logan Morrison is “drawing more trade interest” than any other Miami player, reports Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (via Twitter). Still, it is “highly, highly unlikely” Morrison is sent elsewhere.
"Calmer than you are dude"
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Dec 9, 2011 2:33 PM CST reply actions
Thats like saying Derek Holland is drawing more trade interest than any Ranger player
But its highly unlikely hes dealt .
No shit. Really good young players are drawing interest from other teams in trade. Amazing reporting there Rosey
Why do so many people think we wont have to give up our top pitching prospect for a top young MLer with 4 years of team control left?
Whether or not we are in on those discussions is another topic but if it happens thats what its going to cost at least
Is Gio really a "top young MLer"?
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
If you have a really lose interpretation of "top"
If you sort by FIP, and look at pre-arb pitchers:
Kershaw
Bumgarner
Fister
Zimmerman
Latos
Garcia
Hudson
Price
Pineda
Harrison
Gio
Ogando
….
Holland
Is this just 2011?
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Well, Jarrod Parker for Trevor Cahill is not all that different from Gio for Perez.
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
If the ante is a top 25 prospect for the A's young pitchers, would you prefer Cahill or Gio?
Emily Jones: Adrian Beltre's pretty good?
Mike Napoli: Wow. How about that guy.
The truth about MLers from a MLer, Todd Coffey:
"In my heart of hearts, if it's the right contract, I would look to definitely come back to the Nationals."
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