Saturday morning Rangers things
by Adam J. Morris on Feb 19, 2011 10:25 AM CST
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Jeff Wilson takes a look at the candidates for the Rangers' starting rotation, and their chances of being in the rotation on Opening Day.
Wilson and Anthony Andro have some notes from spring training, including stuff on Josh Hamilton and the news that Michael Young is expected to report to spring training today.
Richard Durrett also has some notes from camp.
T.R. Sullivan has a piece on Arthur Rhodes and Darren Oliver, the two veteran lefties in the Ranger bullpen.
Sullivan also writes about Adrian Beltre and Josh Hamilton joining other early arrivers yesterday.
Gil Lebreton thinks Derek Holland could be this year's breakout pitcher for Texas.
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The weekend OT thread, for your OT chattiness
http://www.lonestarball.com/2011/2/19/2002688/weekend-ot-thread
http://www.lonestarball.com/2011/2/19/2002688/weekend-ot-thread
http://www.lonestarball.com/2011/2/19/2002688/weekend-ot-thread
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy.
Morning everyone.
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.-Closure GT on 12/14/2010 9:48 AM
Josh Hamilton: "I just show up, look at the lineup and play where I’m told. If they want me to catch, I’ll catch."
Mornin'....
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Feb 19, 2011 10:44 AM CST up reply actions
Heh...you forgot the exclamation point....
Top of the Muffin To You!
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Feb 19, 2011 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
The Wilson/Andro link seems to be broken, BTW AJM
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy.
Oh, man...I hope Lebreton's right about Holland....
I still cringe when I think about that WS appearance…good to see Holland has put it behind him.
Of all the pitchers, I’m focusing on him the most…it’s time for him to step up.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Feb 19, 2011 10:44 AM CST reply actions
I really liked the point Gil made.
09 Feldman stepped up, last season it was CJ, 11 is going to be who? Holland is as good a bet as anyone at this point in time.
Given the changes JD made several years ago about loading up the system with pitchers via draft and trade. It is nice to see a string of guys with the potential to step up coming and or here.
You can only be young once but can be immature forever!
I like that comparison....
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Feb 19, 2011 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
goodness
i hope our local media’s balls have dropped, and they ask Mike some tough questions. Maybe there is some NY media there…
"what I have learned in 11 years in the sports business is that the dumbest guys in the room are always the media guys." - mark cuban
I think Young was very clear two weeks ago and I doubt anything has changed.
I fully expect to be a total pro…he might address it upfront…and then say he’s not going to discuss it any further.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
by Josey Wales on Feb 19, 2011 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
i would be shocked if he did anything else
can’t imagine he wants to talk about this at all…will try to to say just enough where he doesn’t have to say anything else about it after that
questions like
great players have done the same thing you’re doing and they didn’t complain…why are you?
"what I have learned in 11 years in the sports business is that the dumbest guys in the room are always the media guys." - mark cuban
or, why don't you tell us your side of the story?
i just want these asked…i know they won’t be answered.
"what I have learned in 11 years in the sports business is that the dumbest guys in the room are always the media guys." - mark cuban
Why not ask JD as well?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
by Josey Wales on Feb 19, 2011 11:19 AM CST up reply actions
JD keeps information on a need-to-know basis.
You don’t need to know.
It is a great thing to know the season for speech and the season for silence.
--Seneca
by bioaggie on Feb 19, 2011 11:32 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
uhm, he did tell us
"what I have learned in 11 years in the sports business is that the dumbest guys in the room are always the media guys." - mark cuban
We're now tied in the GP department, and sprite only has a couple less
It’s win however you can from here on out.
pretty nice comeback
i think i was down like 20 at one point
"what I have learned in 11 years in the sports business is that the dumbest guys in the room are always the media guys." - mark cuban
Agreed....
the story has run its course. MY wanted to be traded…the Rangers tried to trade him and couldn’t. Now…let’s play ball!!
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Feb 19, 2011 11:30 AM CST up reply actions
I don't think the story is dead right now but it's certainly stagnant.
It’s quite possible somebody gets hurt or a team decides they could really use Young or the Rangers could pull out all the stops to trade him before May.
There’s much more that’s going to happen but we’re stuck on the same page we were after the shit hit the fan.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
by Josey Wales on Feb 19, 2011 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
I wasn't clear enough....I think from the Rangers' standpoint (and hopefully, MY's)
it has run its course…what more can the Rangers do? What can MY do? It’s going to be up to the organization and MY to bring this to an end and I think that happens pretty soon….nothing good can come of this story lingering over the head of ST.
As for him getting traded…I’ve been saying that all along. They cannot trade him now…if MY sincerely wants a trade, he has to get out there and play hard in the hopes that another team needs a 2b or 3b before the trade deadline.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Feb 19, 2011 11:46 AM CST up reply actions
It seems like they can't trade him now for anything that
will make the team better.
Are they waiting how things shake out (does anybody decide they need Young?) until May? I think that’s what’s happening right now.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
by Josey Wales on Feb 19, 2011 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
Dumping his salary and giving the DH spot to Murphy & Napoli would make the team better
But no one wants Young’s salary.
And once again, May doesn’t matter. Nothing changes in May. Stop bringing up May.
When Josh / Cruz get hurt and Judy STBF offensively, Murphy has to
be available to play one of the OF positions (still can’t believe This Thing did not pick up an OF that can play CF, especially with Gentry’s wrist still FUBAR).
When one of the above happens, Napoli can’t play every day and has to be spoonfed at bats to remain effective.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
by Josey Wales on Feb 19, 2011 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
So then you agree that Young should be benched until someone gets hurt?
I mean, based on your argument, Young’s only value is as an injury replacement.
Nope.
I think he should play as much as possible in a variety of roles in the first 6-7 weeks of the season.
We can determine how much we need him, what they can get for him on the market and whether or not a deal makes the team better.
The first 6-7 weeks of the season makes for a fascinating chess game.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
by Josey Wales on Feb 19, 2011 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
That doesn't make sense.
Nobody is going to trade for the guy in early May because we have been forcing him to play shortstop every 5th game or something. Michael Young is not a mystery to other teams – it’s not like we can showcase him in the field and all of the sudden other teams will start lining up to get him.
by FuturePants on Feb 19, 2011 12:56 PM CST up reply actions
That makes no sense
You’re obviously not concerned about winning because Murphy is the better DH against righties and Napoli is the better DH against lefties. Blanco is the better backup for Kinsler, Andrus, and Beltre. I suppose you can bench Moreland some against lefties, but playing Young everyday weakens the team. Wins and losses in April and May matter, yet you’re more concerned with making sure Young has playing time even though you’ve yet to show how Young has any value beyond being an injury replacement.
Yeah...
up the middle position players that are good offensively grow on trees. I can’t believe they didn’t just pick up a CF when they were getting milk and cereal at Brookshires.
"Blalock in the cleanup spot makes gives me agita." - Dustin
Is there even a Brookshires in Arlington?
Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. - J.R.R. Tolkien
by Mike the Grate on Feb 19, 2011 12:30 PM CST up reply actions
Brookshires is where I shop.
Lots of old people there, that’s why I used that, I figure Josey shops there and would know what I was talking about.
"Blalock in the cleanup spot makes gives me agita." - Dustin
Heard his name was Neftali Perez.
The new half sleeve jackets are sick, of course I have last years.
It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.-Closure GT on 12/14/2010 9:48 AM
Josh Hamilton: "I just show up, look at the lineup and play where I’m told. If they want me to catch, I’ll catch."
The morning thread is up when I log on for the first time. Thank goodness.
I’m not an animal. I shouldn’t be posting in the night thread in the am.
MY trade idea ...
According to the San Jose Mercury News, Giants close Brian Wilson arrives every day at their Scottsdale complex in fully equipped police cruiser, announcing on the car’s loudspeaker “I’m heeeeere”
We trade MY + $ [lots and lots] for Brian Wilson so Nefti can start. Hilarity ensues.
Heh
MY wouldn’t hit a home homerun all year.
by Judy'sLewinsky on Feb 19, 2011 11:41 AM CST up reply actions
He's really trying too hard now.
He’s fallen in love w/ his alter ego. It’s working out, getting ads and whatnot, but people grew tired of Dee Brown pumping up his Reeboks.
Que sera, sera.
Predictions for the opening series against Boston?
They don’t have to be about the actual game outcome, either…
Didn't they do that right after the ALCS?
by Judy'sLewinsky on Feb 19, 2011 11:46 AM CST up reply actions
That was just a temporary one, no?
I mean, certainly the one that will go up for good won’t be vynl made at FastSigns?
by FuturePants on Feb 19, 2011 12:03 PM CST up reply actions
There will be more Rangers fans in the stands than Red Sox fans.
It is a great thing to know the season for speech and the season for silence.
--Seneca
Bla
@jonmorosi: Brett Tomko agrees to minor league deal with #Rangers, source says. #Texas #MLB
"We are no longer a ride at Six Flags, we are in contention to do some things that will make our lives complete. I have been waiting for this for a long time." - Chuck Morgan
Isn't he one of those guys
that the Rangers were always rumored to be interested in
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I'd assume Tomko is replacement level at this point
but it does help the very back end of our depth at AAA, especially now that Beltre went down.
I’d assume the RR rotation would then have Bush, Harrison, Hurley, Tomko, (Does Perez get the promotion?)
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
by NothinG on Feb 19, 2011 1:46 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I bet Perez spends the bulk of the season at Frisco.
If he bounces back and is just dominating, then they might promote him more aggressively.
Jeff Passan on XM 175 asked what he thought would happen to Michael Young...
“Hell if I know.”
Thinks the 8 team trade list could expand and is more of a primer than an absolute.
Also said he expects Young to be a complete pro about all of this.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
As does pretty much everyone else
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Gina Miller Tweet
Michael Young addressing media…he gave Wash a big hug when he walked into clubhouse #fb http://yfrog.com/h69s4xj
"We are no longer a ride at Six Flags, we are in contention to do some things that will make our lives complete. I have been waiting for this for a long time." - Chuck Morgan
I decided this morning...
That if I were Jon Daniels…. I would fall on my sword regarding Michael Young.
Come out and take full responsibility, apologize to him and his teammates for not handling the situation appropriately and not giving Young the respect he’s earned. I wouldn’t apologize for any actual roster moves or discussions… just how Young was treated.
That’s not to say that I think JD did anything wrong. But I think it’s the best PR move. Completely disarms Young and opens the door for him to be happy to be here.
I think it’s the best strategy at this point.
"Yorvit, Webb, Napoli and Rhodes are going to cost $ 16 million this year and aren’t likely to combine for a 5.0 WAR this year." | Josey Wales, 2/11/2011
"I'll bet you an Internet he puts up a higher OPS than Beltre." | Scoop16 on Micheal Young, 2/17/2011
by Brad on Feb 19, 2011 1:29 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Also reinforcing
How important he is the Rangers and how much they’d like for him to be here. But leave no doubt that JD was the one who deserves the blame. Blah blah blah.
I think it would be difficult for Young to continue to demand a trade in the eyes of the common fan if JD goes out of his way to be the bad guy. The common fan would prefer to forgive and keep Young.
"Yorvit, Webb, Napoli and Rhodes are going to cost $ 16 million this year and aren’t likely to combine for a 5.0 WAR this year." | Josey Wales, 2/11/2011
"I'll bet you an Internet he puts up a higher OPS than Beltre." | Scoop16 on Micheal Young, 2/17/2011
No.
"The world would truly be a better place if you didn’t exsist. You should just lean over the plate and take one for the team, run into oncoming traffic or something." -S l c Ranger HE MAD! The internet is serious business.
by TooLegitToQuit on Feb 19, 2011 1:33 PM CST up reply actions
Care to expound?
I’m not saying JD is wrong… I’m saying that disarms Mike Young. What’s the downside?
"Yorvit, Webb, Napoli and Rhodes are going to cost $ 16 million this year and aren’t likely to combine for a 5.0 WAR this year." | Josey Wales, 2/11/2011
"I'll bet you an Internet he puts up a higher OPS than Beltre." | Scoop16 on Micheal Young, 2/17/2011
No.
"The world would truly be a better place if you didn’t exsist. You should just lean over the plate and take one for the team, run into oncoming traffic or something." -S l c Ranger HE MAD! The internet is serious business.
by TooLegitToQuit on Feb 19, 2011 1:35 PM CST up reply actions
Okay then.
I’ll file your opinion in the appropriate place then.
"Yorvit, Webb, Napoli and Rhodes are going to cost $ 16 million this year and aren’t likely to combine for a 5.0 WAR this year." | Josey Wales, 2/11/2011
"I'll bet you an Internet he puts up a higher OPS than Beltre." | Scoop16 on Micheal Young, 2/17/2011
Cool.
"The world would truly be a better place if you didn’t exsist. You should just lean over the plate and take one for the team, run into oncoming traffic or something." -S l c Ranger HE MAD! The internet is serious business.
by TooLegitToQuit on Feb 19, 2011 1:37 PM CST up reply actions
Doing something like that is not a bad idea even if JD really isn't sorry about what happened.
Per your sig and those players combining for a 5 WAR…it all comes down to Webb.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Without Webb
I wouldn’t feel confident that just the three could do it. It’s not impossible, but it’s below 50% likelihood.
But… with Webb… I’d put it more like 80%.
"Yorvit, Webb, Napoli and Rhodes are going to cost $ 16 million this year and aren’t likely to combine for a 5.0 WAR this year." | Josey Wales, 2/11/2011
"I'll bet you an Internet he puts up a higher OPS than Beltre." | Scoop16 on Micheal Young, 2/17/2011
I don't know what Webb is...if anything I lean towards him not being healthy
enough to be effective (going on what I saw on MLB Network).
Rhodes is good for 0.5 but Yorvit had a career 6 WAR in 8 seasons (.75 per) before 2010.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Since it's obvious...
that the Rangers can’t deal him, and MY is going to continue to act like a child, I wouldn’t have a problem with JD stepping up and doing this.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Latest on Young....
BNightengale Bob Nightengale
by KennyBybee
#mlb Young still wants out of Texas. No plans to talk to GM Daniels
jonmorosi Jon Morosi
by KennyBybee
Young wouldn’t say whether or not he will rescind the trade request. Says he has no plans to talk with JD. #Rangers
aandro Anthony Andro
by KennyBybee
Rangers Michael Young: “There are situations about this offseason that pissed me off.”
aandro Anthony Andro
by KennyBybee
Young said he loves Ron Washington and that Nolan Ryan knows his true feelings.
aandro Anthony Andro
by KennyBybee
Rangers Michael Young said he won’t talk about trade talks anymore. He won’t let it be a distraction to the team.
"We are no longer a ride at Six Flags, we are in contention to do some things that will make our lives complete. I have been waiting for this for a long time." - Chuck Morgan
That's exactly what he did the last time he talked to the media
“I don’t want to start getting into this publically”
followed by
“JD’s a liar”
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
.
BNightengale #mlb Young still wants out of Texas. No plans to talk to GM Daniels
aandro Young said he loves Ron Washington and that Nolan Ryan knows his true feelings.
aandro Rangers Michael Young: “There are situations about this offseason that pissed me off.”
Yep, he's a mental midget
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
by NothinG on Feb 19, 2011 1:49 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Not really.
A lot of fans love him.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
A lot of fans are pretty fucking stupid, too.
"You're failing Seymour; what is it with you and failure?"
I love Michael Young.
I just don’t want him playing in the field and I’m sick of him acting like a petulant bitch.
I love MY too.
But not more than I love the Rangers. A lot of fans are basically admitting they love him more than making the team better.
"You're failing Seymour; what is it with you and failure?"
Brett Tomko signed by Rangers
Bet he doesn’t make the team
Lone Star Ball - 2010 -- It's time
I'm a believer
Careful out on that limb there.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
matchstick is right...
JD should come out an apologize right away.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
matchstick made a compelling case
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Not really
I just don’t see the point. He didn’t handle anything improperly and there is no reason for a GM and player to get along. So what real benefit is there? Young has already said he wants to focus on the season and doesn’t want to cause a distraction.
I think you're wrong about that
I don’t really agree that JD did anything wrong in putting Michael Young feelers out there. He does deserve some blame, however, for letting it blow up this way. These situations are best handled internally and that isn’t what ended up happening.
Even if this is the media’s creation, the front office deserves blame regardless of whether or not Michael Young is acting like a brat.
Until we actually find out what, if anything, got MY all butthurt
We have no proof that he did anything wrong. And that last line is a joke. If it’s the media’s creation, how did he do anything wrong?
Quit acting so nieve
This whole situation getting to this point is partially the fault of the front office. The media, Michael Young, and probably other parties are responsible as well.
The front office has a responsibility to keep their players happy and in a position to succeed as a group. They share this with the owners and PR department as well. Regardless of whether or not the decision to trade Michael Young is a good idea for the team, letting it blow up into this mess and become so public is not a good thing. Damage control is their job, not Michael Young’s and certainly not the media.
JD is partially responsible for that and as much as Josey will never admit it, so is Nolan Ryan. I have no idea why people are so quick to blame JD but won’t blame Nolan Ryan. He’s the president and part owner of the team. This is as much his responsibility as it is anyone’s.
The trade rumors were all over the place from the get go.
Michael Young, and only Michael Young, is responsible for crying to the media every time they ask him a question about it.
Nolan Ryan didn't piss off Young...that was on JD.
Ryan is guilty for participation and not realizing the conference call had no upside or positive outcomes.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Regardless of blame... it's the best move to deal with the situation.
Do none of you have subordinates? Haven’t any of you ever had to take one for the team?
I’ve taken responsibility for failures on my team that were not my direct fault because that’s what was needed.
It’s part of being the boss. JD did what he needed to do to help this team, I’m all for him making the decisions he needs to to improve the club.
And if they could trade him… great. But they can’t… and in light of that… be the bigger man and fall on your sword.
"Yorvit, Webb, Napoli and Rhodes are going to cost $ 16 million this year and aren’t likely to combine for a 5.0 WAR this year." | Josey Wales, 2/11/2011
"I'll bet you an Internet he puts up a higher OPS than Beltre." | Scoop16 on Micheal Young, 2/17/2011
That's not a great analogy
Taking blame on the part of a subordinate usually involves the subordinate harming a third party in some form or fashion. There is no third party here.
The fans.
"Yorvit, Webb, Napoli and Rhodes are going to cost $ 16 million this year and aren’t likely to combine for a 5.0 WAR this year." | Josey Wales, 2/11/2011
"I'll bet you an Internet he puts up a higher OPS than Beltre." | Scoop16 on Micheal Young, 2/17/2011
Several people have referred to it as seeing their parents fight.
And it upsets little kids and such. ;)
It doesn’t take a ton of analytical skill to see that JD did what he needed to do. I do not think JD is at fault at all.
But I think there is benefit to trying to resolve the situation if a trade cannot be worked. I do not think we will be able to trade him… and if that’s the case… rather than just let it sit there. Take the blame, which will not harm JD in anyway, and open the door for Young to either forgive or be the bad guy.
Seriously… no chess players here?
It’s all about controlling what your opponent can do and forcing them to make the moves you want them to make.
If JD apologizes and Mike Young continues to hold a grudge he’ll look like even a bigger dick than he already does.
"Yorvit, Webb, Napoli and Rhodes are going to cost $ 16 million this year and aren’t likely to combine for a 5.0 WAR this year." | Josey Wales, 2/11/2011
"I'll bet you an Internet he puts up a higher OPS than Beltre." | Scoop16 on Micheal Young, 2/17/2011
Why does it matter?
It makes absolutely no difference if the GM and the players get along.
The only issue is that Face simply won’t shut up about it(of course he says this right before or after he says he won’t talk about it).
There's validity to that.
JD isn’t in the clubhouse… and a little animosity isn’t a bad thing. Builds resilience.
But… my whole point was it’s what I would do if I were in his shoes to disarm him and diffuse the situation.
But I agree it’s not a necessity.
"Yorvit, Webb, Napoli and Rhodes are going to cost $ 16 million this year and aren’t likely to combine for a 5.0 WAR this year." | Josey Wales, 2/11/2011
"I'll bet you an Internet he puts up a higher OPS than Beltre." | Scoop16 on Micheal Young, 2/17/2011
I agree he should apologize for the way they handled it internally
He shouldn’t apologize for putting Michael Young out there.
BEW
and Gil Lebreton are thinking along the same lines
Still missing are David Murphy, whose wife is close to giving birth to a third child, and Julio Borbon.
so why is David Murphy’s wife giving birth to Julio Borbon?
Borbon's there.
He got there a few hours ago.
"Yorvit, Webb, Napoli and Rhodes are going to cost $ 16 million this year and aren’t likely to combine for a 5.0 WAR this year." | Josey Wales, 2/11/2011
"I'll bet you an Internet he puts up a higher OPS than Beltre." | Scoop16 on Micheal Young, 2/17/2011
They're trying to incubate a version that can take a fucking walk
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy.
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