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Verducci on Feliz as Starter

Taking the record holder for most saves by a rookie (40) out of the closer's role has been viewed by some observers as an unnecessary and risky move. It's neither.

In fact, it's an obvious move and Texas would be negligent not to try it.

Verducci is one of the more enlightened baseball writers out there.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/tom_verducci/03/01/rangers-feliz/index.html#ixzz1FMnjDT50

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This is going to happen

You can see the front office people telegraphing through their comments over the last couple of months. Unlike last year, when they wanted Wilson to really shine in camp to justify the move to the rotation, I think Feliz pretty much has to fall on his face to be kept out of it.

Nelson Cruz - 2011 MVP

by t ball on Mar 1, 2011 10:50 AM CST reply actions  

from the article
Basically, it’s twice as easy to find a guy to save 30 games as it is to find a frontline starter.

I think that is vastly understating how much more difficult it is to find someone to pitch at that level for 200 innings. Reaching the 30-save plateau just means you had a warm body in the same role for a decent team, not that you had a good closer. Closers do not increase a team’s chance at winning very much. If your closer goes down for some reason, someone else can get 3 outs. But a starter pitching 200 quality innings is much, much more difficult to find.

Nelson Cruz - 2011 MVP

by t ball on Mar 1, 2011 11:05 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't think the Rangers are giving him a spot

so much as Feliz showed up looking ready to take advantage of the opportunity.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Mar 1, 2011 11:06 AM CST up reply actions  

I agree that he seems to be on top of things

but I think they knew he would be and trusting in his character is part of the reason they are so open to moving him now.

Nelson Cruz - 2011 MVP

by t ball on Mar 1, 2011 11:16 AM CST up reply actions  

I have to believe that our decisionmakers have seen more than a handful.

The handful we’ve seen have been in game situations, but they’ve also seen his offseason work, his bullpens, and even his warmups during games.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"I am on a drug," Sheen said. "It’s called Charlie Sheen. It’s not available because if you try it you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body."

by Aqua on Mar 1, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Yep

sometimes folks as if pitches thrown in side sessions don’t count, and only gametime pitches count. I’m pretty sure that the Rangers are paying attention to workouts, as well as games.

"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington

by DJCahill on Mar 1, 2011 1:33 PM CST up reply actions  

you really think that?

Daniels has been talking about the possibility of Feliz moving to the rotation for a long time, way before anyone showed up in AZ.

Nelson Cruz - 2011 MVP

by t ball on Mar 1, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah,

if you ignore EG’s comments up until today, I think the general trend in media coverage of the issue was that the Rangers were going to give him a legit tryout.

"I’d love to walk in and hug everybody every day, but that’s not critical to us winning." - Jon Daniels

by GhettoBear04 on Mar 1, 2011 12:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Well it's the problem with "winning a job in ST"

First, I’ll say that I really want Feliz to win a rotation job.

I don’t know what the team is looking for this spring. Now, I’m hoping that the team has full confidence in Feliz’s ability to be a starter and doesn’t need to see much in spring training. But if the team is waiting to see if Feliz’s offspeed pitches have improved or that his arm motion/speed is more consistent, I don’t think we’re going to have enough of a sample size this spring to know that.

by cstorm15 on Mar 1, 2011 12:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually, I think you can see enough about secondary pitches

and arm speed in six weeks of bullpen sessions, batting practice throwing and games. Why not? How long should it take them to assess Feliz’ readiness? We are not talking about using a small sample of game results here, we’re talking about scouting someone’s present ability. I see no reason at all why they couldn’t judge his readiness by mid-March.

Nelson Cruz - 2011 MVP

by t ball on Mar 1, 2011 1:26 PM CST up reply actions  

I assume

they are looking to see if he has a 2nd pitch or maybe even a 3rd pitch he can command consistently. He wasn’t able to do that last spring.

"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington

by DJCahill on Mar 1, 2011 1:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I think you're wrong about Wilson

he didn’t necessarily shine either but it was pretty much the same situation where you just had to read between the lines to know that there was a big push to make Wilson a starter, regardless of what was going to happen

by ab03 on Mar 1, 2011 12:04 PM CST up reply actions  

You may be right about that

and their comments may have been part motivator as well.

Nelson Cruz - 2011 MVP

by t ball on Mar 1, 2011 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

But who will "save" the games????????????

I mean, when the Rangers are up 5-2 going into the top of the 9th and the 7-8-9 hitters are coming up for the Mariners who is going to ride in on a white horse and get those critical outs and “save” us from a devastating last-inning loss?

"George, why would I, a Julliard trained dermatologist, send him to another doctor?"---Cosmo Kramer

by Chad Crudup on Mar 1, 2011 11:08 AM CST reply actions  

still a legit issue

those last inning losses take years off my life.

by SteveP on Mar 1, 2011 11:54 AM CST up reply actions  

No

Younf playing the field is all.

by Silve on Mar 1, 2011 2:09 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

the fuck?

"JD is a fucking ninja," Aquaman, esq, 25 January 2011

by TagDon'tTweet on Mar 1, 2011 2:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Oooooooo, I like this, Mr. Verducci.

I love it, actually.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"I am on a drug," Sheen said. "It’s called Charlie Sheen. It’s not available because if you try it you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body."

by Aqua on Mar 1, 2011 11:10 AM CST reply actions  

Verducci is dead on.

I’m sure JD knows what is more valuable. And it is not just about 2011. Feliz may only be a 150IP number 4 SP in 2011 but a bona fide number 1 in 2012, ’13, ’14, ’15.

by RangerMad on Mar 1, 2011 11:10 AM CST reply actions  

This is a good point.

We also should temper our expectations accordingly with Feliz starting the first year. A #4 starter is all we need out of him, with occasional flashes of greatness and conditioning to develop into an ace over the next several years.

by Akalhar on Mar 1, 2011 12:25 PM CST up reply actions  

I wish I knew what this meant.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"I am on a drug," Sheen said. "It’s called Charlie Sheen. It’s not available because if you try it you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body."

by Aqua on Mar 1, 2011 11:54 AM CST up reply actions  

It measures attractiveness

Started a few years ago. It’s just a joke. I can’t see his name or his face without thinking of the scale.

by jparks77 on Mar 1, 2011 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Does he wear double-breasted suits?

"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz

"Baseball's all that's real" - JB

by Ryin A on Mar 1, 2011 12:39 PM CST up reply actions  

I've never noticed

I’m always too busy staring at his chiseled face.

by jparks77 on Mar 1, 2011 1:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah...

I saw Verducci on the MLB network trying to debate this with Reynolds and Williams the other day. Of course they think Feliz has to stay a closer.

Pretty sure I saw him roll his eyes at those two clowns.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 1, 2011 12:02 PM CST reply actions  

CLOSERS DO CLOSERINGS!

WHY DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND YOU DWEEB!?!

"I’d love to walk in and hug everybody every day, but that’s not critical to us winning." - Jon Daniels

by GhettoBear04 on Mar 1, 2011 12:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Which one?

"I’d love to walk in and hug everybody every day, but that’s not critical to us winning." - Jon Daniels

by GhettoBear04 on Mar 1, 2011 12:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Has to be the curveball

certainly flashes plus plus but not sure about consistency

by ab03 on Mar 1, 2011 12:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes.

It seemed when he first came up that the 2-seem fastball thing would vary between being more fastball like and more splitter like. I have no idea what to call that thing or what it would look like as a starter (if he uses it still), but that’s what gives me confidence that he has enough of a repertoire to start.

"I’d love to walk in and hug everybody every day, but that’s not critical to us winning." - Jon Daniels

by GhettoBear04 on Mar 1, 2011 12:30 PM CST up reply actions  

No.

Plus-plus translates to a 70 IIRC, which is something like Verlander’s curve. I think you’d really have to REALLY embellish some of the breaking balls he threw in 2009 to say he had a plus-plus secondary pitch.

by LiamP on Mar 1, 2011 1:08 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

I thought plus-plus was 75 or 80, and plus was 65 or 70.

Maybe I’m remembering it wrong.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"I am on a drug," Sheen said. "It’s called Charlie Sheen. It’s not available because if you try it you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body."

by Aqua on Mar 1, 2011 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

I thought plus-plus was 70+

80 is basically God-like.

by LiamP on Mar 1, 2011 1:31 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

right

60=plus
70=plus+
80=THEN A GOD AM I… (read in Jim Carrey’s amplified voice as the Riddler)

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by TheDutchOven on Mar 1, 2011 1:52 PM CST up reply actions  

I asked this the other day and never got a response.

Felix fastball.
Harper power
Stanton power
Trout current speed

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"I am on a drug," Sheen said. "It’s called Charlie Sheen. It’s not available because if you try it you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body."

by Aqua on Mar 1, 2011 2:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Montero power?

"I’d love to walk in and hug everybody every day, but that’s not critical to us winning." - Jon Daniels

by GhettoBear04 on Mar 1, 2011 2:15 PM CST up reply actions  

BA has it at 70.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"I am on a drug," Sheen said. "It’s called Charlie Sheen. It’s not available because if you try it you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body."

by Aqua on Mar 1, 2011 2:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Easy guess

Pujols hit tool. Hamilton’s maybe, too

>mfw

by MonkeyEpoxy on Mar 1, 2011 2:18 PM CST up reply actions  

We're talking just in the minors right now.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"I am on a drug," Sheen said. "It’s called Charlie Sheen. It’s not available because if you try it you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body."

by Aqua on Mar 1, 2011 2:19 PM CST up reply actions  

My bad. I remember this conversation earlier

i remember throwing out Iglesias’ fielding tool

>mfw

by MonkeyEpoxy on Mar 1, 2011 2:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Wut?

It goes deeper. People take out their frustrations with Josey on their real-life acquaintances, which propagates forward, and before you know it you’ve got more marriages in an easily-smashable state.-Closure GT on 12/14/2010 9:48 AM

Josh Hamilton: "I just show up, look at the lineup and play where I’m told. If they want me to catch, I’ll catch."

by RangersSD on Mar 1, 2011 3:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Good point.

Let me rephrase, we’re not talking about established ML ballplayers. Guys like Hamilton and Pujols are the ones we don’t want to know.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"I am on a drug," Sheen said. "It’s called Charlie Sheen. It’s not available because if you try it you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body."

by Aqua on Mar 1, 2011 2:22 PM CST up reply actions  

I haven't seen anyone grade him.

Maybe.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"I am on a drug," Sheen said. "It’s called Charlie Sheen. It’s not available because if you try it you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body."

by Aqua on Mar 1, 2011 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

BA has it at 70.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"I am on a drug," Sheen said. "It’s called Charlie Sheen. It’s not available because if you try it you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body."

by Aqua on Mar 1, 2011 2:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Moustakas has 75 power, too.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"I am on a drug," Sheen said. "It’s called Charlie Sheen. It’s not available because if you try it you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body."

by Aqua on Mar 1, 2011 2:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Makes sense.

I want to say Bourjos’s fielding in general, but that’s more a combination of range, instincts, arm, and glove.

by AsDevilsRun on Mar 1, 2011 2:26 PM CST up reply actions  

I didn't.

But I would have if I’d spoken on the subject.

You can flog me in their stead if the don’t show up.

by philkid3 on Mar 1, 2011 12:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure.

I didn’t think it was very likely.

"I’d love to walk in and hug everybody every day, but that’s not critical to us winning." - Jon Daniels

by GhettoBear04 on Mar 1, 2011 12:22 PM CST up reply actions  

I only insisted

that people not jump to conclusions about his long term future if he was not in the rotation this year. I figured if they re-signed Lee there was no chance Feliz would be in the rotation this year, but still might move there next year.

Nelson Cruz - 2011 MVP

by t ball on Mar 1, 2011 1:29 PM CST up reply actions  

I was probably one of them

And would love to be wrong but still think even if he is in the rotation he would be more valuable to the 2011 Rangers as their closer

by bigsteve on Mar 1, 2011 10:00 PM CST up reply actions  

I said

that the Maddux/Wash/JD/Ryan would pick whoever they were going to pick, and it wasn’t worth getting upset if Feliz stayed in the bullpen or if other pitchers started in AAA.

"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington

by DJCahill on Mar 2, 2011 5:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Good article

but Verducci throws this in trying to describe the situation from Wash’s point of view:

Washington would have to make do with Alexi Ogando or Mark Lowe (combined big league saves: four)

but then goes on the point out how overvalued counting saves can be. It feels contradictory. Besides, as it’s been pointed out numerous times on this board, Neftali had only two saves before last season, it’s not a good argument to discount Ogando or Lowe simply because they haven’t had the saves yet.

But otherwise, his point is obviously correct in that Neftali potentially has more value as a starter than closer.

by jam0152 on Mar 1, 2011 12:09 PM CST reply actions  

Not contradictory

if he’s talking about Wash’ point of view. It helps to set up his point about how overvalued saves are.

Nelson Cruz - 2011 MVP

by t ball on Mar 1, 2011 1:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes, to continue this

I dont think he was defending their point of veiw, just setting up how most managers veiw a good closer.

"I’d love to walk in and hug everybody every day, but that’s not critical to us winning." The JeDi

by blalock84 on Mar 1, 2011 1:33 PM CST up reply actions  

This year or next year it is going to happen.

You just have to love Feliz and the options he give as long as he remains healthy.
Option one: He shows enough progress with his breaking balls and change up to go with the fastball that he earns a rotation spot this year. WINNER.
Option two: He shows improvement but just no enough to earn a rotation spot he goes back to the closer role for a year and continues to work on his secondary pitches. WINNER

It is nice to have choices like that.

You can only be young once but can be immature forever!

by Bigfan16 on Mar 1, 2011 12:12 PM CST reply actions  

Exactly.

My biggest concern is that we would have to wait until 2013 to see Feliz in the rotation. That it seems more likely than not that Feliz is starting by 2012 is incredibly exciting.

"I’d love to walk in and hug everybody every day, but that’s not critical to us winning." - Jon Daniels

by GhettoBear04 on Mar 1, 2011 12:21 PM CST up reply actions  

John Daniels's quote makes me warm and fuzzy
We always viewed Neftali as someone with the ability to start. Why wait two, three years to find that out?

by blakethegr8 on Mar 1, 2011 12:39 PM CST reply actions  

I just cleaned the kitchen.

Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.

"I am on a drug," Sheen said. "It’s called Charlie Sheen. It’s not available because if you try it you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body."

by Aqua on Mar 1, 2011 12:57 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I think that's the money quote

As long as he’s not flat out awful or (knock on wood) 3 bullpen guys don’t get hurt you have to like his chances of making the roto.

"I fully expect to lose tonight" -- LSJ

by Dirk Diggler on Mar 1, 2011 1:14 PM CST up reply actions  

How much leniency will Feliz have?

Lets say that Feliz and Holland make the rotation out of spring and Bush accepts going to the minors. If Holland is performing at or above replacement level in his first 5 starts and Feliz is performing below replacement level; do you stick with Feliz’s upside or send him down or back to the bullpen in exchange for what Bush will provide? In my opinion, if you are going to make this move, you have to stick with him.

by casew on Mar 1, 2011 1:52 PM CST up reply actions  

I suspect

below replacement level (on a RA/ERA and IP basis, not FIP basis) gets you re-assigned out of the rotation before May is out.

"I wanted to go out there and punch Julio" - Ron Washington

by DJCahill on Mar 1, 2011 2:06 PM CST up reply actions  

That's what I thought

but I could’ve swore I read it with an “h” in the article. Maybe I’m doing too many drugs…or not enough.

by blakethegr8 on Mar 1, 2011 7:35 PM CST up reply actions  

I like this.

"I'll bet you an Internet he puts up a higher OPS than Beltre." | Scoop16 on Micheal Young, 2/17/2011

by Brad on Mar 1, 2011 6:52 PM CST reply actions  

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