Wednesday a.m. Rangers stuff
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 11, 2012 8:52 AM CST
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T.R. Sullivan's notes includes quotes from Jon Daniels saying that, while Robbie Ross and Martin Perez are coming to camp as starters, if the team's biggest need is lefthanded relief, the team would "look at" utilizing one of those guys in that sort of role.
I wouldn't read too much into that, personally. While I think either Ross or Perez could end up pitching out of the bullpen at some point in 2012, I don't think either is likely to start the season with the big club.
Jeff Wilson has a story in the S-T about the team's non-roster players getting invited to spring training, with Ross and Mike Olt highlighting the group.
Richard Durrett writes that Brad Hawpe is deciding between three teams, including the Rangers, and could make a decision in the next week.
Wilson has a story on the increase in ticket prices and the lottery system for Opening Day tickets, with quotes from Ranger COO Rick George.
Gerry Fraley has a blog post on the Rangers' night getaway games, writing that there are fewer of those than last year, which should help the team.
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Go Rangers
"When I came off the mound the hairs were standing up on my arm. I know there's not much"
/Holland.
The parking increases suck.
"...out of the shadows of unprecedented success, the sun shines down upon this team waiting to thrill anew." - ghostofErikThompson
does he of whom we do not speak still own the parking lots?
as of last season he did…
"God dammit TAG I swear to God if you keep this "It was a close play" shit up all night I will send you cookies made from my own shit" -River Fenix 8/26/2011
"this is a big reason I decided not to convert to Islam now if it was 72 skanks? Different story, my friend" Bob Loblaw 9/2/2011
by I am Neftali Feliz on Jan 11, 2012 9:49 AM CST up reply actions
If he does
I’ll take care of it. Just finished a book about his tenure as Liverpool owner, and it’s made me mad enough again that I’d be willing to pay him a visit…
"Those cocksuckers asking me if I thought we were gonna go up there and try to work his fuckin’ pitch count ‘cause he’s on three fuckin’ days rest…you know what I told those cocksuckers? He pitch ball, ball cross plate, we gonna knock the shit out of it."
- Wash
Read
It’s called “Epic Swindle” by Brian Reade. Very good book- and the Rangers are mentioned a few times in it.
"Those cocksuckers asking me if I thought we were gonna go up there and try to work his fuckin’ pitch count ‘cause he’s on three fuckin’ days rest…you know what I told those cocksuckers? He pitch ball, ball cross plate, we gonna knock the shit out of it."
- Wash
Andrew Sullivan's blog?
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
Now AJM has to find a new noon-time post.
"...out of the shadows of unprecedented success, the sun shines down upon this team waiting to thrill anew." - ghostofErikThompson
Even though Perez keeps dropping on people's lists
I don’t think there is any way the Rangers burn a full year of control by having him in the bullpen.
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
How is his situation different from Derek Holland or Neftali Feliz?
Why wouldn’t they use him in the same way, especially if Feliz’s transition shows success?
"...out of the shadows of unprecedented success, the sun shines down upon this team waiting to thrill anew." - ghostofErikThompson
well, they can use him if they call him up in June or something.
if he breaks camp in April and is super effective, they’ll use a full year. If they wait until June-ish, they’ll be fine and he won’t even be a super 2
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
Yep.
Plus, they could get him another half a year of starting experience at AAA which would be quite valuable.
"I’d love to walk in and hug everybody every day, but that’s not critical to us winning." - Jon Daniels
by GhettoBear04 on Jan 11, 2012 10:55 AM CST up reply actions
Yep
I really want to see him start some more in AAA before a ML promotion unless he is just looking amazing in ST.
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
need
back in 2009 there was a need for Feliz and Derek at the ML level. The need doesn’t exist now for Perez
Well, there is a need for another lefty in the pen.
But neither Perez nor Ross project to be dominant relievers. And there is no room in the rotation, unlike when Holland came up.
by VM on Jan 11, 2012 9:51 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
When Holland came up in 2009, he went into the bullpen
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 11, 2012 9:55 AM CST up reply actions
Shizen. Can't believe I forgot that...
I was thinking about some of those stellar starts, like the near shutout around the trade deadline…
by VM on Jan 11, 2012 12:10 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
I wish I was completely convinced this is what drove (is driving) the early promotions.
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
What is your postion on this again?
You think the scouts/coaches believe they are ready when they are not? Or, that it is TX SOP to value “finishing” in the bigs rather than spending a full year at each level (eg)? Just curious.
My position's that I don't know what's driving it.
If I had to guess (and it’d be a wild-ass guess) I’d guess that the Texas talent development team places a priority on challenging its most promising prospects as early and extremely as they deem feasible — operating under the philosophy that even if such prospects who haven’t had especially lengthy minor-league careers fail in an early promotion to the bigs, if they’re really the sorts of prospects Texas could and should depend upon, they’ll recover on a return trip back to the minors, and have a stronger development pathway knowing what they’ll eventually be facing at the major-league level.
That was a long sentence.
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
I think it is clear
that they have no hesitation to challenge minor leaguers with tougher assignments/promotions for players who the coaches/scouts think need it and can handle it. I do think that approach was not a good decision for Perez, who really hasn’t had a dominant season since LowA. However, with him, I think they skipped home over Bakersfield due to the particular team culture there at the time – lots of partying going on – rather than the dreariness of the city or the dilapidation of the facility/field/stadium (and hitter friendly league). No other prospect has received that kind of treatment in the last 5 years or so that I can remember.
As for the major leaguers, I think Holland, Hunter, Harrison were promoted/retained due to need (in part generated by budget issues, in part by poor evaluation of the ML pitching staff out of spring training) rather than being challenged per say. Having said that, I think it is probably a moot issue as Texas has become a contender with money so they can afford to sign (and have the depth to trade for) and should sign the vets they need rather than going with scrubs or minor leaguers who aren’t ready.
The last sentence is key.
I hope you’re right, and that the trend of very rapid big-league promotions (especially for pitching prospects) was driven by perceived need, and that it’s now a past trend, not a continuing one.
We could get into a longer discussion of “perceived need,” but I should get some work done…
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
yeah
I get that your inkling pivots on the “perceived need” angle and that it is not apodictic, rather, it is something that must be thought through rather than definitively demonstrated…
Daniels has basically said as much a couple of times
They like challenging their top guys for the reasons you mention.
Some see a glass half empty, some a glass half full. I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be. - George Carlin
Given his 'things to work on'
I don’t see how the bullpen makes all that much sense. This is a guy who’s been groomed for years to be a 3-pitch, left-handed stud for the rotation. And right now, it seems from those watching and talking about him that some nights he has it and some nights it’s not there at all. I’m no expert, but it seems he needs to learn consistency from repetition.
It would seem counterintuitive to take a development project like that and stick him in the bullpen to get the erratic work he’d likely get in a Wash/Maddux pen.
With the current make up of the pitching staff, it seems that Kirkman or even Ross or some journeyman junk balling lefty would make more sense than to throw off the years of work on Perez.
Now that the ML staff is a bit more stocked, I’d like to see the Rangers take a bit more of a Rays-esque approach with their minor league talent. Make them work out all their issues down there and be exceedingly patient. That way they get up here ready with a better chance to succeed immediately and … dare I say it and invoke the Big Steve rant … give them more opportunity to work out extensions like Moore’s b/c they have confidence in the ML ability from day one.
I don't disagree,
especially given the main issue that the Rangers homegrown pitchers seem to have [consistency of command], but I also think that the Rangers value the experience a player gains by spending some time in a lesser role on the big league club. I don’t know enough to agree or disagree…
"I’d love to walk in and hug everybody every day, but that’s not critical to us winning." - Jon Daniels
by GhettoBear04 on Jan 11, 2012 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
starting in the pen
I think there is some serious value to learning the ML trade in small doses rather than coming up and being asked to go 6+ every time out.
But with Perez, and this is just a hunch based on others’ observations, it seems like a full year to work on consistency from inning to inning and outing to outing would be in the player and teams’ interest.
Thinking out loud, if Ogando gets pushed to the pen this year, I think it makes sense to move him back to the roto next year, taking Colby’s spot, and then that’s the year you bring up Perez mid season to work out of the bully w/ the thought that he can take Harrison’s roto spot for 2014
My issue...
Is that the relief trade and the starting trade are two different things.
Things you can get away with in a short outing in controlled match ups won’t necessarily prepare you as well for a starting engagement.
I want someone like Perez who is groomed as a starter with three pitches that have plus potential to hone his craft going through a lineup multiple times and really understanding what it takes to be a starter.
I also want him to log innings.
Unless there’s an explicit need at the ML level for a reliever to achieve meaningful success… or the prospect is a fringe starter candidate that might end up in the pen anyway (Scheppers), I’d rather be patient and let them learn their trade in the minors than have them here in the pen.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Agree
But like any job you prepare for, there are aspects of pitching a couple of months out of a major league pen that would help prepare him for his role as a starter.
Just seeing how your fastball is handled by ML All Stars and feeling the impact of a Beltre/Andrus/Kinsler infield would be something I’d see as valuable.
But I agree with you that I’d like to see Perez log a bunch of consistently successful innings at AAA before it’s even considered.
Do we trade Harrison then?
Because Harrison isn’t a FA until after 2014
Also I dont like the idea of yo-yoing Ogando back and forth between the rotation and pen from year to year.
My opinion is Perez should stay in the minors most of the season and stay as a starter and then in September come up and get a start or two and also work out of the pen. Colby leaves after this year seeking his one chance at a big payday and you go into 2013 with Perez and Ramirez fighting for the 5th spot in the rotation and you probably sign some veteran journeyman as AAA insurance should both fall on their face early on
Sure, you could trade Harry a year out from his FA
Or if he’s the guy you really like from the left side, maybe you sign him and look to trade Holland with his extra year of control.
And on Ogando, I think a year of working on a third pitch out of the pen would be a benefit to him in his development as a starter as opposed to a negative. I don’t think a guy who is as mature as he is and who has been through the life struggles that he has will be adversely affected by ‘yo-yo-ing’
I would be more worried about the innings "shock" to his arm
Plus I dont really know if hes going to be put in positions to really work on that third pitch this year. If he comes out of the pen as a fireman type guy which we all believe he will be hes going to be blowing and going with that fastball/slider combo not experimenting with a change or something.
working on pitches
I think there’d be plenty of opps to work on a 3rd pitch, in side sessions with the pitching coaches or in game situations where it was called for.
As was discussed yesterday, he doesn’t have a great 2nd pitch to go after lefties with, so unless he’s a ROOGY, he needs to include a third pitch even out of the pen in short doses
No matter how much you work on a pitch in side sessions and with a pitching coach
It doesn’t matter until you get on the mound against live competition and throw it. You have to have the confidence to throw it to live batters. Guys who if you leave it hanging can crush it 400 feet.
If hes coming in as a fireman I dont really want him throwing a experimental pitch to a guy in a tight game situation.
Mike Olt doesn't really expect to make the team...he's just happy to be invited.
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Jan 11, 2012 9:19 AM CST reply actions
this is actually an accurate statement... not an oltism
"God dammit TAG I swear to God if you keep this "It was a close play" shit up all night I will send you cookies made from my own shit" -River Fenix 8/26/2011
"this is a big reason I decided not to convert to Islam now if it was 72 skanks? Different story, my friend" Bob Loblaw 9/2/2011
by I am Neftali Feliz on Jan 11, 2012 9:49 AM CST up reply actions
Works either way.....
"I never argue with people who say that baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn’t. And that’s what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Jan 11, 2012 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
I know a Ricky George so yeah probably
My mind just says throw ball throw hard and strike. - Marteen
by Keynes on Jan 11, 2012 9:47 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
1 yr / 8.5 mm, huh?
Cincy is gonna be pretty good.
HSO.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
Madson and the Phillies
Two losers of this offseason.
by RangersfaninROK on Jan 11, 2012 9:56 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Disappointed he's not our guy next year.
Looks like he would’ve taken the same seal we gave Nathan.
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
DAMNIT.
That’s supposed to read, “Was there a club option with that?”
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
Nice.
And, yes, I meant “seal.”
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
If Reds can pick up Kuroda or something
They’re def favorites in the Central. Even though it’s not exactly a remarkable pitching staff, running out Latos, Cueto, and Kuroda would be p. awesome.
Madson and Sean Marshall
in that pen, adding Latos to the rotation… pretty good looking team. The Reds arguably have 5 arms in the bullpen (assuming that’s where Chapman ends up) that are somewhere between good and wow. (Madson, Marshall, Bray, Massett — yeah, that guy). A decent rotation, average to above average offense and a pretty stout pen.
Some see a glass half empty, some a glass half full. I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be. - George Carlin
?Who's got a better shot at the Hall of Fame?
M.Young or Beltre? Both look to have a good shot at 3000 hits, which I guess is still automatic.
Not if you are Raffy.
@AdamLikesBeer If you are in Minneapolis I can tell you where to get a good brew.
by TargetField on Jan 11, 2012 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
Is this a bit?
One is 2 years younger, hits for more power and plays really, really, really good defense … but yeah, they both have 2K hits right now, so …
Well
I would wager that if you polled the current HOF voters, Young would get more support than Beltre right now.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 11, 2012 10:33 AM CST up reply actions
Shutters ...
Though your comment says more about the voters than the players, I’d probably take that bet
Beltre’s no MY when it comes to media love, but he’s a pretty likable personality and he’s one of those guys who’d probably be described as ‘playing the game the right way’ … and he hits HR’s from his knee too
x
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
Well played
"I’d love to walk in and hug everybody every day, but that’s not critical to us winning." - Jon Daniels
by GhettoBear04 on Jan 11, 2012 10:55 AM CST up reply actions
Hyperbole is fun.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Also... defense is important?
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
You mean like Brooks Robinson?
Compared to whom, Beltre’s offensive numbers already are at least comparable – with Adrian having more HR’s, almost as many RBIs and Doubles?
/sarcasm
If Beltre averages something like 160 hits, 20 HRs, and 80 RBIs during his contract with us
then there will be precious few 3rd basemen in the Hall with better numbers than him in those categories. By ‘precious few’ I mean something like 2 or 3.
by RangersfaninROK on Jan 11, 2012 10:49 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
There is no one player in baseball that can lead a team to a World Series championship.
Or A-Rod would have won a couple while he was here.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Herpity derpity
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
I don't know
Beltre has about twice as many HRs and more RBIs. Plus he has 3 SSs and 3 GGs to MY’s 1 GG. I see why you would say that but I’m not as sure that will be the case.
by RangersfaninROK on Jan 11, 2012 10:41 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Ban
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
.
jimcallisBA Jim Callis
Profar No. 5 on my list, Perez No. 21. Darvish would be No. 4, push them down a spot. @the_bunk: Where do you rank Profar? Perez? #Rangers
Damn.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Considering Darvish
a “prospect” is an abuse of the concept.
Well their prospect rankings are based around who is eligible for ROY, aren't they?
As ridiculous as it is to put Darvish in the same group as a guy like Bryce Harper and Jurickson Profar, if that’s your criteria then you have to stick with it.
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
"If that's you criterion, then you have to stick with it."
No you don’t.
People make reasonable exceptions to otherwise strict criteria all the time. Is there some penalty BA would pay if it put out a statement saying, “You know what? It makes zero sense to consider someone like Yu Darvish [or Ichiro Suzkui, or whomever] a prospect. In fact, it’s an abuse of the concept. You might disagree, but we’re not going to remain beholden to some abstract criterion that doesn’t really have much to do with anything to begin with.”
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
Post Profar!
Some see a glass half empty, some a glass half full. I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be. - George Carlin
Crazy that he is only 23.
Rotoworld_BB Rotoworld Baseball
Report: Astros claim F-Mart off waivers dlvr.it/14g7pH
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