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Around SBN: NFL Safety Ryan Clark's Motivational Workout

Spoiler alert -- there are a lot of disappointments.

4 months ago Th_buckykatt_tiny Adam J. Morris 25 comments 0 recs  | 

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Hint to 2002 prospects.

If your name isn’t a hyperlink, you failed.

by 3hacks on Jan 30, 2012 11:00 AM CST reply actions  

And even if it is

You still may have failed.

"A lot of people may not know this, but I happen to be quite famous." - Sam "MayDay" Malone

by SoWasRed on Jan 30, 2012 11:03 AM CST up reply actions  

RicRod

my elbow suddenly hurts.

by DShep on Jan 30, 2012 11:15 AM CST reply actions  

Does anybody think it's a little strange the way they frame this

They were highly touted because BA told you they were. A lot of these people (Blalock) had consensus support but a lot of people are a product of BA. And then when these people failed, it is that they were disappointments, not that the disappointment lies with BA.

by ab03 on Jan 30, 2012 11:30 AM CST reply actions  

It's like weathermen.

If they were right, they are geniuses, if they are wrong, well prospects are unpredictable. What can you do? It is funny that all failures were assumed to be due to lack of development on the player’s part. The orgs and the mag have no culpability.

"Calmer than you are dude"
We tell our guys, control the controllables. Trust the process and don't sweat results. Be the casino.

by Arlington Stadium Legend on Jan 30, 2012 11:40 AM CST up reply actions  

At least the weathermen who know what their doing will give you some sense of the unpredictability of the situation.

That’s really what they should report. Not a number. More like a range within which the forecast is 95% likely.

Everybody needs somebody to love... I need Yu, Yu, Yu! I need Yu, Yu, Yu!

I hope I haven't offended the Blues Brothers with this.

by rooster on Jan 30, 2012 12:58 PM CST up reply actions  

I like when I hear someone say something along the lines of:

“They said there was a 40% chance of rain and then it didn’t. YOu can never trust the weather!

SB Nation Dallas-Ft. Worth - Christopher Fittz is better than porn!

by philkid3 on Jan 30, 2012 3:45 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Agreed.

SB Nation Dallas-Ft. Worth - Christopher Fittz is better than porn!

by philkid3 on Jan 30, 2012 11:47 AM CST up reply actions  

I wonder about this all the time.

"I’d love to walk in and hug everybody every day, but that’s not critical to us winning." - Jon Daniels

by GhettoBear04 on Jan 30, 2012 11:52 AM CST up reply actions  

How would their reliability be judged, since this is so subjective.

Would it be relative to other industry lists? Basically, just determining which list hits on the prospects most often?

I can’t think of a way to determine whether they have reliably evaluated a player’s talent profile. It’s not like there is a reference, standardized prospect everyone’s system could be judged against.

Everybody needs somebody to love... I need Yu, Yu, Yu! I need Yu, Yu, Yu!

I hope I haven't offended the Blues Brothers with this.

by rooster on Jan 30, 2012 1:00 PM CST up reply actions  

This.

Wouldn’t necessarily be finding the best way to forecast prospects, but could at least tell us what lists are best.

SB Nation Dallas-Ft. Worth - Christopher Fittz is better than porn!

by philkid3 on Jan 30, 2012 4:35 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

It's not really implied anywhere

Maybe I am inferring it where it isn’t implied. But I at least think Adam is implying it with his characterization of it. And I guess I am critiquing myself for having the initial gut reaction of thinking the players were the disappointments.

by ab03 on Jan 30, 2012 1:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes

It’s a big reason I left BA. Who’s the third-best left fielder in the Blue Jays organization? Frankly, I don’t give a shit. I remember a cover story they did way before I got there about Bam Bam Meulens. Anyone remember that guy? (I’ve been reading BA since 1988.) Subhead on the cover said – “The Next Mickey Mantle?”

Even though the lists might seem arbitrary. BA isn’t pulling stuff out of its ass. Every year, staffers get assigned teams, they call a bunch of people in the front office, they talk to scouts and say – who’s the number 1 guy? Who’s the number 2 guy? If there’s a discrepancy, you have no choice but to finagle the list. But they do a lot of work figuring out who should go on the prospect lists. That work continues year-round in various degrees – the whole point of that magazine is prospects, and no one does more comprehensive legwork in trying to figure out who the top guys are for every team in MLB. No one. The best thing about working at BA is that you can get to know an organization (not always, but sometimes), first-hand from the owner to rookie ball – players, scouts, front offices, etc. Just about everyone in MLB grants BA people more access, even over larger publications. So there is no excuse for not being able to collect information. Anyone in the minor leagues is available to talk to over the phone to anyone on staff. The major league people are left to MLB correspondents, columnists, or whoever deals with MLB on a regular basis.

At the end of the day, though, it’s a crap shoot. You draft a guy and it may take him 5,6,7,10 years to reach MLB. Who the hell can forecast something like that? It’s impossible. Then what kind of career is he gonna have after 5,6,7,10 years in MLB? That’s an additional level of impossibility to know. Even the can’t-miss guys are a crap shoot. Look at the 2002 list – Mark Prior, best college pitcher ever (they said). Cubs are set for the next decade with him, right? Ah, no. I remember one day talking to Jim Callis about Brad Hawpe. Callis said he’d never make it, his minor league numbers were inflated because he was older than most other guys there, etc. I didn’t tell him at the time, but I thought – how the hell do you know this? You don’t, so why are you pretending you do? Brad Hawpe ended up making a nice little career for himself. Nothing stellar, but I’d sure as hell like to make $20 million for 8 years of work. The one thing I didn’t like at BA was how sure of themselves they were of all these unknown quantities. I thought there was too much looking at trees instead of forest. On the other hand, the problem with working with nothing but prospects, like I said, it’s impossible to see the forest. You have no idea who’s gonna be good years down the road. You can guess, but that’s all you can do. So you always have to keep this in mind when reading these lists. No one knows what the fuck is gonna happen. But if you put THAT message in every story, everyone would stop reading.

by Colonel Travis on Jan 30, 2012 1:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Interesting

The only thing I’d say is that Mark Prior ended up being what we all thought he would be. Maybe injury forecasting is something that BA should take into account but I don’t fault them for not getting that right.

by ab03 on Jan 30, 2012 1:08 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah, injuries is part of it

Prior most likely would have been a great MLB pitcher without them. I wasn’t trying to imply otherwise.

by Colonel Travis on Jan 30, 2012 1:11 PM CST up reply actions  

But the larger point

are you saying that BA tries to get the industry consensus on someone rather than trying to do the scouting on its own to come up with its own unique perspective? Like if every scout in the league was honest and decided that Hank Blalock in 2002 was not a good player, would BA have ranked him that high, or would it still have relied on its own scouting?

by ab03 on Jan 30, 2012 1:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd say instead of industry consensus, it's club consensus.

BA doesn’t do its own scouting, per se. They are writers/editors who just tell everyone what they’ve found out. For example, the Reds may know who the top guys are with the Indians. But neither club is gonna know the other as well as their own. Bryce Harper is a no-brainer for everyone in MLB. But you wouldn’t talk to, say, the Mets about Blake Kelso. You’d just stick to the Nationals. And you talk to everyone you know with the Nationals so you can get as good a picture of Blake Kelso as possible.

You get to watch a ton of games (any MLB or minor league park,any time – it was awesome.) But like I said, the people who work at BA are writers/editors, not scouts. You can pick up stuff from talking to scouts. If you don’t, you’re a moron because they are a gold mine. But even then it doesn’t stick with certain people. I remember going to a showcase one time with another BA staffer and we were talking to a scout about someone, can’t remember who, and the scout said something technical about the player. And the BA guy said – how do you see that? And the scout said – all you have to do is look at the guy. The way he said it was funny, because the only thing missing was “you dumb ass” at the end of the sentence. But he was correct. I didn’t notice whatever he was doing until it was pointed out because I wasn’t looking, but it’s not rocket science.

I think it helps if you’ve ever played baseball for a length of time and there are a lot of people who cover baseball who’ve never played much, so that hurts them in not just the evaluation dept., but understanding the game. You can’t believe the stupid shitty questions in clubhouses across this country. Actually, I be you and others here could believe it just fine – but geez. I don’t know how half these people got jobs.

by Colonel Travis on Jan 30, 2012 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Let me refine this

You probably would talk to the Mets about Blake Kelso if, say, you knew the Mets had scouted him heavily and drafted him out of HS, and they thought Blake Kelso was their dream guy all along, but he got away, etc. Or maybe you’ve talked to 10 scouts from 10 teams about him in the past. Something like that. I don’t mean to say you always ignore other clubs when evaluating guys. It depends who the player is, and who you know in baseball, because people switch organizations all the time, and scouts from multiple clubs are always scouting the same guys. But you give a lot more weight to the team that actually signed the guy, since they’re watching him all the time.

by Colonel Travis on Jan 30, 2012 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Then fair enough

maybe it is less about BA if they are merely collecting opinions as opposed to really forming their own.

by ab03 on Jan 30, 2012 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

it's a mixture

When comes to something like the Top 100 in the game, though, it’s more BA than the clubs at that point. Same with the top prospects in a league, or AAA, or something big picture like that. Ranking the top college and HS teams is also based highly on BA opinion.

by Colonel Travis on Jan 30, 2012 1:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Lot of ex Rangers on the list

Even a ex Cowboy…and the son of a former Ranger great.

Rodriguez was flipped for Padilla right?

Former/Current Ranger greats: Ricardo Rodriguez, Hank Blalock, Carlos Pena, Josh Hamilton, Marlon Byrd, and Mark Prior (kinda)

If I had a gun to my head and had to pick one pitcher to pitch a game to save my life.... I'd pick 1999 Rick Helling.

Dear Rangers, Make me forget about 2010.......

My Sports Stuff on Ebay

by matthewbschultz83 on Jan 30, 2012 11:49 AM CST reply actions  

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