Sunday a.m. Rangers stuff
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2012 10:55 AM CST
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PrintQuiet morning as far as Rangers news goes.
Gerry Fraley writes that the Howie Kendrick extension -- 4 years, $33.5 million -- is going to raise the price for an Ian Kinsler extension. I don't think so, personally...Fraley points out that Kinsler is making $7 million in 2012, and Kendrick (who is a lesser player) will be making $8.375 million per year in his new deal, but I don't think anyone thought that Kinsler was going to sign an extension for $7 million per year, or even $8.375 million per year, going forward.
Behind the paywall, Evan Grant talks about the possibility of a match between Prince Fielder and the Rangers.
And there's a report out of Japan saying that the Rangers are expressing interest in Hiroki Kuroda. How that makes sense, given the fact that (assuming Yu Darvish signs) the Rangers have six pitchers for five rotation spots, along with Scott Feldman in the bullpen, isn't clear to me, so I'm not sure there should be a lot of credence given to this report, but its out there.
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Kuroda can be Yu's accountability partner
"the PGT isn’t about alerting drunk guys on their mobile as to what the score was." --goET 7-24-11
by Atticus F on Jan 8, 2012 11:00 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
THE RANGERS NEED PITCHING!!!
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
by JBImaknee on Jan 8, 2012 11:04 AM CST via Android app reply actions
isn't Kuroda asking for a metric shit ton?
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Ryin A on Jan 8, 2012 11:05 AM CST via Android app reply actions
about 12mil per reports
We’re not about sending messages. We’re about winning ballgames.-Wash, 04/03/11
Hell to the fucking no. -Wash, 10/07/11
by Rodney on Jan 8, 2012 11:37 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
thought it was more
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
"Baseball's all that's real" - JB
by Ryin A on Jan 8, 2012 11:46 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
Nah, he just wanted to stay in the West Coast.
I shortened my sig so I wouldn't be frowned upon at Lookout Landing
EG makes some good points
Fielder has played most games since 2006. Signing Prince would be about replacing Hamilton. Only options for LH power hitter are Hamilton and Fielder. If Hamilton is wanting 6yrs/$100M then it may be wiser to sign Fielder.
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 11:09 AM CST via Android app reply actions
I agree
My issue is if the Rangers dont sign Fielder and let Hamilton walk in free agency who replaces him? Next years crop of free agent hitters is pretty poor. There is upton, victorino, and ethier. None of those guys really pique my interest much.
"JD gets complete blame or credit for what happens in 2010 and I think Nolan wants it that way. JD is paid to be a real GM and needs to start performing like one." - Josey Wales
by Michael Cave on Jan 8, 2012 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
Votto might be available after 2013
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 11:23 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
Sure
but does that mean the Rangers are going to go a full season with a little less potent lineup?
I have a feeling that Votto wont ever hit free agency. I think the Reds will either re-sign or trade him next off season to a team that will sign him. Never know that team could be the Rangers….
"JD gets complete blame or credit for what happens in 2010 and I think Nolan wants it that way. JD is paid to be a real GM and needs to start performing like one." - Josey Wales
by Michael Cave on Jan 8, 2012 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
And will likely cost close to what Prince will cost
Its not like signing him would be some sort of savings over Prince
And you have to wait and hope he actually does hit FA. Which like we saw with Kemp this winter isn’t a lock. Got to strike when the opportunity presents itself because it may not come up again for quite some time
Votto will cost
more im sure. I bet his agent is watching Fielder’s situation very closely of course. Personally, I think that Votto is the superior player as well as profiling as someone who is more likely to perform at a high level for longer.
"JD gets complete blame or credit for what happens in 2010 and I think Nolan wants it that way. JD is paid to be a real GM and needs to start performing like one." - Josey Wales
by Michael Cave on Jan 8, 2012 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
Votto will be 30 when hes a FA though
Likely looking for a 7-8 year deal
Would you be comfortable giving him a 23+ mil per year deal for those ages?
If so why that over Prince through his age 34-35 seasons?
Napoli is also hitting free agency as well.
Kinsler’s extension won’t be any less than the extension Young received.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Yep
very intriguing contract decisions for 2012 for the Rangers.
"JD gets complete blame or credit for what happens in 2010 and I think Nolan wants it that way. JD is paid to be a real GM and needs to start performing like one." - Josey Wales
by Michael Cave on Jan 8, 2012 11:29 AM CST up reply actions
$16M/yr for Ian?
Pedroia tops out at $11M in 2015
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 11:30 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
Cano has a 15 mil option for 2013
Utleys making 15 mil per year
I think thats probably the area he’ll be seeking
I bet he will be looking
for 5-6 years, 14-16 AAV
"JD gets complete blame or credit for what happens in 2010 and I think Nolan wants it that way. JD is paid to be a real GM and needs to start performing like one." - Josey Wales
by Michael Cave on Jan 8, 2012 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
Personally
i would cap out at 5 years and 60 mil. Unfortunately, that probably wouldnt get it done
"JD gets complete blame or credit for what happens in 2010 and I think Nolan wants it that way. JD is paid to be a real GM and needs to start performing like one." - Josey Wales
by Michael Cave on Jan 8, 2012 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
Unlike... any other player in baseball?
A burden should never be something out of your control.
"I'm a Cowboys fan. And I hope they miss the playoffs and get the better draft pick. This team sucks. We're saving ourselves the embarrassment too. That's a major +" by JDT217 on Dec 26, 2011
I'm thinking a 4 year deal
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 11:35 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
ian is worth that
I’d say pretty easily
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
by JBImaknee on Jan 8, 2012 11:54 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
You don't have concerns about his aging and injury curve?
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
He's worth that now
I think its doubtful he’s worth that in his mid-30s.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2012 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
He's worth more than that now.
I think it’s doubtful he’s worth more than that in his mid-30s, too, but a five-year extension starting in 2012 gives you his 30-34 year-old years. It depends when you think Kinsler will start tailing off, both defensively and offensively.
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
Why would you start the extension in 2012?
You have him under control for the next 2 years at a combined 17 mil.
Thats where the conundrum starts. If you tear up the current deal and start the extension in 2012 then you lose that amazing value he will be in 2012 and 2013 while making him just a good value.
If you keep the current deal and start the extension in 2014 then you risk having to sign him through ages that you aren’t comfortable with given his age/injury concerns
"You have him under control for the next 2 years at a combined 17M."
That’s exactly why I’d hope Kinsler would be open to a relatively good deal for an extension, now. If the Rangers are willing to give him closer-to-value for 2012 and 2013, then they can know they have him around for 2014, 2015, and 2016, as well.
If the idea is to start the extension in 2014, then forget about a 5-year, $70M-or-more deal, as far as I’m concerned. Kinsler would be 32 starting that deal, and 37 ending it. Why would the Rangers do that?
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
I mean, now. Why would the Rangers do that, now?
As opposed to waiting at least another year?
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
I agree with you
Thats why its so tough though. I guess if we come to the end of January and have a extra 10 mil in the budget for 2012 we could go to Kins and do something like that.
but then the question becomes why did we have a extra 10 mil in the budget and didn’t try and work something out with Prince where that 10 mil for 2012 would probably have been enough if you backload a deal.
its just a tricky situation
Just having $10m in the 2012 budget...
Isn’t enough of a justification to give Prince a $200M contract.
Signing Prince has nothing to do with this 2012 cost and everything to do with his total cost.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
4yr/$60M starting in 2013
with a $8M bonus that makes 2012 be $15M
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 12:17 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
his game is so balanced it is hard to say.
but my intuition is to compare him to a guy like Beltre
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
by JBImaknee on Jan 8, 2012 12:11 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
And you were against the Beltre contract.
So what would you be willing to do for Kinsler?
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
Well, if we're talking about adding 3 years to his current deal
he’ll be quite yougner than the back side of Beltre’s deal…
I like the parameters you’re discussing below. I’m generally against giving anyone big $$$ past 35 yo or so. But we’re not talking about that.
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
Do you think either side balks
at a 5-year, $70 million deal starting in 2012?
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
Kinsler might
if he signs that, he’ll likely never get to wade into those free agent waters. At least not expecting to find a gold mine. Now, the 5/70 is pretty rich as it is… but who knows.
If I’m Texas I do that though. Especially given that in a few years the outfield is going to need work, you want that infield secure.
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
really
I really, really value up the middle defense. And I like baserunning more than most. And if you can get good offense to boot, then you’re in really good shape.
I would much rather lock up Elvis (cue Bigsteve Boras blah blah blah) and Ian than sign Fielder.
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
Yeah.
I can see why Kinsler might balk. How far do you go, if you’re the Rangers? Do you agree to something like:
2012: $13
2013: $14
2014: $15
2015: $16
2016: $17
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
ooh... and I was thinking of just signing him myself
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
maybe make that last year a vestable option?
one that is fairly easily reached, as opposed to Beltre’s which really means he plays the full season in his 5th year.
Or, just do that deal if you have a team option in 2017 for $17 as well.
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
That might well work.
So, if you wanted to put it in very crude WAR terms, you’d be looking at a deal “worth” an average of 3-3.5 WAR per year, yeah?
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
I think he's good for that
His value is so distributed. Basically, even if his defense and offense regress a little bit, he’s still worth 3 WAR.
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
You think he could move to the OF and remain valuable?
If he looses some range and they have another body to plug in at 2nd?
We’re not about sending messages. We’re about winning ballgames.-Wash, 04/03/11
Hell to the fucking no. -Wash, 10/07/11
by Rodney on Jan 8, 2012 3:15 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
I have no idea how his defense would translate to the outfield.
I don’t see Kinsler as super fast, and I have no idea if he has enough of an arm to play right. I’m sure he’d be passable; but he’d have to keep hitting at his current level to be a 3WAR player I suspect.
Now, if you’re putting him in RF to replace Cruz and putting Profar at 2b, then perhaps the net value to the team is good enough to justify it. But I think he’d be more valuable staying at 2b. At least for the next 4-5 years or so
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
I was thinking of option 2
No OFers in the system and Profar on the way. Also, that may mitigate some downside risk, dunno, maybe a dumb idea…
We’re not about sending messages. We’re about winning ballgames.-Wash, 04/03/11
Hell to the fucking no. -Wash, 10/07/11
by Rodney on Jan 8, 2012 3:22 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
well, I'd hope the Rangers are thinking exactly along those lines.
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
if Profar is at 2B
who is playing SS?
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 3:23 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Texas balks
That’s tantamount to a 3 year, $53 million extension.
I don’t think they’d do that.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2012 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
If Kins were a free agent now
what do you think he’d get?
I don’t think that above deal is a discount. But I do think the Rangers gain from having it only be 3 years, whereas on the market he’ll get longer through that. And those years at the end are the ones that will sting.
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
What do you think the Rangers' limit would be, then?
5 years, $60 million would start Kinsler off at $10M in 2012, and go up a million each year from there. I don’t know why Kinsler would agree to that.
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
He's already under contract for 2012-13
I think they’d offer a 3 year extension for 2014-16 at something like $14-15 million per year, maybe with a fourth year vesting option at $16 million based on PAs.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2012 4:05 PM CST up reply actions
Unless Ian walks into the office begging to be extended
I can’t see any way that they’d even suggest that to him.
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
They'd figure he'd turn it down cold,
you mean?
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
yeah
That is one of those offers that I would imagine they wouldn’t even counter at.
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
Me, too.
Unless Ian’s a lot more worried about injuries than I’d imagine.
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
The problem with that deal
is that Ian is more proven now than when he signed his original extension. You’d be asking him to take only a very modest raise – probably not even matching inflation in baseball salaries – in exchange for not being able to go out onto the market to get his “big payday”. The only thing in it for Ian is security against the risk that he gets really injured in the next two years.
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
if Ian were to sign an extension now
it would have to include a bonus that brings his 2012 and 2013 AAV to ~$15M
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 4:24 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Didn't MY get a $10M bonus when he signed his extension?
I thought they did that to bring his 2008(?) salary to $15M
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 4:41 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
I don't believe so
But even if he did, it doesn’t really matter.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2012 4:43 PM CST up reply actions
except Kinsler is very injury prone
and Beltre had been able to stay healthy most his career.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Even though he's missed a shit-load of games 2 of the last 3 years.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
He missed a shit-load of games in 2009.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Would you tell Kinsler,
“Hey, Ian — you’ve been underpaid, and you’re going to continue to be underpaid for the next couple years, which takes you up through age 31. We recognize what a great player you are, and what you mean to this team. So, how about we pay you $11M in 2012, and an additional $1M in salary each year through 2016?”
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
No.
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
Because I don't think he'd accept that kind of deal.
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
As an extension this offseason or once he hits FA?
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
5/70
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
I don't think you pay a backup that much...
We’re not about sending messages. We’re about winning ballgames.-Wash, 04/03/11
Hell to the fucking no. -Wash, 10/07/11
by Rodney on Jan 8, 2012 1:34 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
So, $5 million more than I'd suggested.
If you were the Rangers, and you thought Kinsler would accept 5/$70M starting in 2012, why wouldn’t you start the negotiations with the 5/$65M package I outlined?
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
Yeah, you're right. That's a solid opening offer.
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
Seems as if it's a good offer for both sides,
but I wonder if the Rangers would feel there’s too much risk entailed even in that sort of deal.
Or maybe Kinsler balks because he feels like he can get a Beltre/Young type of deal as a 32 year-old free agent. I don’t know.
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
Pedroia signed his deal before he was even arbitration-eligible
His situation isn’t comparable.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2012 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
im not too sure the Rangers regret it
nearly as much as folks here do
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
by JBImaknee on Jan 8, 2012 12:15 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Probably not.
But man, do I hope Young can put up at least one more year like 2011.
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
from Scott Boras bio on Bloomberg
Boras’ high priced FA have out performed their contracts
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 11:13 AM CST via Android app reply actions
Then he's a shitty agent if they aren't getting paid what they're worth
Football can go to hell. The Rangers aren't ready for football season and neither am I.
by WyoRanger on Jan 8, 2012 4:58 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Could someone explain to me how Kinsler was worth almost 2 full WAR more than Kendrick last year?
And it looks like the Angels got a hell of a bargain with that deal for Kendrick only being 1 year from FA.
Sure wish our FO would actually get some deals done instead of just expressing a desire. Getting a little frustrating seeing a team like the Angels actually accomplish a lot of stuff while we talk a big game this winter.
Two things.
128 wRC+ vs 120 wRC+
But more importantly, 723 PA to 583 PA. 140 extra PA is a lot.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Yeah im wondering how Kinsler got so many more PA
He only played in 15 more games
Looks like Kendrick spent a lot of the year hitting in the middle of the order while Kinsler was the leadoff man all year.
Rangers offense was better than the Angels but I didn’t realize it was that much better where Kinsler ended up getting that much more PAs
15 more games is quite a bit when you average 5 PAs a game leading off.
That’s half of the difference right there just from games Kendrick missed.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011.
Also...
Kendrick broke out last year. Not sure this is a bargain… not a guarantee he repeats 2011.
Ian’s got a stronger history of success and will justifiably cost more.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Yeah
last year may well end up being his career year. Didnt realize it until you pointed it out but he has been pretty damned average every year before last.
"JD gets complete blame or credit for what happens in 2010 and I think Nolan wants it that way. JD is paid to be a real GM and needs to start performing like one." - Josey Wales
by Michael Cave on Jan 8, 2012 11:23 AM CST up reply actions
Well at only 8 mil per year he wouldn't have to duplicate last year would he?
If he duplicates last year then its a incredible bargain but if he reverts back to his normal self which is roughly 2 WAR player then this still fits as a good deal if you go by $/WAR right?
He's also entering his 29 year old season.
He needs to put up about 7.5 WAR to be worth it, and I think that’s very likely attainable. But factoring risk and aging I don’t think it’s a massive discount.
I suspect there’s a bit of an LA discount (people like living in SoCal) but the deal isn’t shocking for a guy who never had anything close to a season like his 2011 before and about to hit his 30’s.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
So what are your feelings on a Kinsler extension?
Kinsler will be 31 when he hits FA and likely will be looking for a Michael Young type extension.
Pretty much the same on extending any player in their 30's.
Makes me nervous. I want to pay them much less than they want because they want to get paid based on past production and not future production.
It’ll depend on where we’re at on the win curve and what other options there are.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
I have a feeling that if profar progresses
the way the Rangers hope he will that the Rangers will just let Kinsler walk.
"JD gets complete blame or credit for what happens in 2010 and I think Nolan wants it that way. JD is paid to be a real GM and needs to start performing like one." - Josey Wales
by Michael Cave on Jan 8, 2012 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
Really?
Explain please. Younger and seeking a bigger payday?
"JD gets complete blame or credit for what happens in 2010 and I think Nolan wants it that way. JD is paid to be a real GM and needs to start performing like one." - Josey Wales
by Michael Cave on Jan 8, 2012 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
his dream may be
to play shorstop for the yankees
I don't think anyone gives him a Michael Young type deal
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2012 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
You expect Kinz to sign for less than Beltre?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
He'd be leaving a ton of money on the table.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Yay, we get to hear more about how bad you think the Beltre deal was.
Yay.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011.
Dan Uggla was the highest paid 2B
at $12.4M/yr AAV in 2011. Cano has club options of $14M and $15M the next two years. $15M/yr might be a little generous for Ian.
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 12:39 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Uggla can't hold Kinsler's jock.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Kinsler wishes he could wear Cano's jock
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 1:11 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Prices aren't going down any time soon...when the Dodgers & Mets
get their ownership issues squared away, they’re both going to come out firing with both $$ barrels.
That’s one reason why it would be foolish for Napoli, Kinz, Josh or Lewis to sign club-friendly deals…especially with Kinz because he already signed a very club-friendly deal.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Not really.
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
it's amazing to me
how under-appreciated Kinsler seemingly is, apparently even by fans of the team he plays for.
by elvis1isking on Jan 8, 2012 3:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
over the past four years
guess how many position players have more total fgWAR than Ian?
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
hint
Robinson Cano is not on that list
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
damn only 10 position players
wonder where he’d be if he played more than 122 games in 2008 and more than 103 in 2010
Just don't piss her off, otherwise she'll get all Dien Bien Phu up in your Boxer Rebellion - caknuck
btho Iowa State
so yu think he should be paid
as much as Beltre?
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 3:50 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
I think Ian Kinsler, right now, and going forward
is a better player (or at least more valuable) than Adrian Beltre
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
so you grossly overpay him
compared to other 2B?
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 3:54 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
How is it overpaying him
if he’s worth the dollars he’s getting? Just because Pedroia is under a team friendly contract, doesn’t mean Kinsler has to get discounted. Did you say “why pay Beltre so much when Longoria doesn’t get nearly that much?”
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
you pay for performance at the position
Cano is a good comp for Kinsler. He will be making 14-15 million the next two years
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 4:02 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Kinsler is better than Cano
And I’m pretty certain that if Cano was going to extend for 2014-2016, then he’d be getting a sight more than 14 million a year.
I find it really amusing that a group of people who were up in arms about not giving CJ Wilson 5/75 or whatever for his 32-36 years are that upset about giving a better player (position considered) less money as an extension
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
Kinsler better than Cano?
LOL …………. (infinity).
Kinsler has the same amount of fWAR in almost a thousand less career PA.
Cano might be a little more consistently awesome offensively at this point, but they both have the same career wRC+, and Kinsler’s rated way better in the field.
Look, this is a bad time to buy cocaine anyway. With the market how it is, it is better to rent cocaine.
And JBlmaknee has already said
he’s good with a 5-year, $70M extension starting in 2012. That’s a $14M AAV for 5 years.
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
Easily.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
fortunately
JD runs the team and not you
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 3:56 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Yeah, he's greenlighting $ 100-120 million
investment on a pitcher who has never recorded an out in The Show.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
and you dont think Nolan signed off on that??
goodness…….ITS ALL JD’S FAULT….EVERYTHING !!!!!
NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development
Justin Verlander? I piss on Justin Verlander --AJM
When are you going to let JD grow
up and be responsible …you know, like all the other GMs are?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
I doubt it
I don’t think anyone is going to offer him 5/80 or 6/96. He’s had injury issues, and second basemen don’t age well.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2012 1:49 PM CST up reply actions
See Joe Morgan, Davey Lopes, Ryne Sandberg, Michael Young,
Bobby Grich, Rod Carew, Paul Molitor, Craig Biggio, Lou Whitaker. Jay Bell.
C’mon, Man.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
well, several of those guys moved off 2b as they got older
but I also wonder if it is correct to say 2b don’t age well, or at least use that against Kinsler. He’s just not a typical 2b…
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
nice post showing your ignorance
neither Carew or Molitor were 2B at age 30. The others I didn’t bother to look up
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 3:14 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
to be fair
if Kinsler had to move off 2b and still put up Molitor numbers, then the extensions that we’re talking about are pretty friendly.
I worry about a blunt statement that the team shouldn’t think of extending Kinsler because 2b don’t age well.
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
Molitor?
Molitor barely played 2B after age 23.
Young moved off of 2B after his age 26 season.
Bell was a shortstop, not a second baseman.
Carew moved off of 2B after his age 29 season, in part because of concerns about keeping him healthy.
Ryne Sandberg after age 32 was pretty mediocre.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2012 3:37 PM CST up reply actions
Bell played 80 games at 2B for the World Champion DBacks in 2001 at the age of 35..
Young was “moved off” 2B because the organization had it’s balls in a vise and he volunteered to play SS.
Carew was moved off 2B in part because of injury but also because Bobby Randall (smooth fielding 2B) was brought up. He didn’t play 2B in Cali because the Angels had Bobby Grich.
Sandberg hit 25 HR / 92 RBI at age 36 for the Cubs with a 3.8 WAR for those of you who believe solely in that metric.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
We're including roiders in the "2Bs who age well" category?
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
He goes out of his way to rip users.
I know that doesn’t mean much today, but he’s adamant.
Que sera, sera.
I suspect that's reaction formation.
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
I don't think Barry shared with Kent
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 4:15 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
If Jeff Kent and Davey Lopes had a baby
it would be Ian Kinsler.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
It's a great deal for a team, like the Angels, that can afford it.
Decent potential for high reward, relatively low risk given a $150-200M payroll going forward. (At most, this represents 5-6 percent of the Angels’ payroll for the next four years.) The injury history is slightly worrisome — those hamstrings keep getting pulled, and as he gets older, it stands to reason this could just get worse, and diminish his range-and-speed-based value. But, all things considered, if a club has the sort of money the Angels have, this is the sort of deal that works out really well.
A Kinsler extension, I think, would cost the Rangers at least 5 years and $70M, and would be a classic case of potentially underpaying for the first two or three years with a strong suspicion that the last two or three years would represent significant overpay.
The problem, for the Rangers — or maybe it’s more a question than a problem — is how many guys they can afford to pay “fair value” for, over the lifetime of a contract, rather than seeking surplus value.
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
if you are the Rangers
you have to figure out the cornerstones who you keep and those who you have to replace eventually. Ian, id argue, is one of the hardest to replace guys on the club
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
by JBImaknee on Jan 8, 2012 12:00 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
One of the hardest to replace in all of baseball.
Those strong fielding, strong hitting MIF are rare.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Agreed, on both points.
And, of course, I’ve been a huge fan of Kinsler, consistently. I’d hope that he’s prioritized over Hamilton, Andrus, and Napoli as far as extension money goes…
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
Championships are built up the middle...
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
IN THE TRENCHES!!!
We’re not about sending messages. We’re about winning ballgames.-Wash, 04/03/11
Hell to the fucking no. -Wash, 10/07/11
by Rodney on Jan 8, 2012 3:16 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
If only we had one of the best farm systems in baseball and a FO committed to acquiring elite talent.*
*Screw the new CBA.
If only…
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011.
If only a $150-200M payroll could be coupled to the farm and FO commitment.
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
'Twould be nice.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011.
As one may notice on Kendrick though as of a few years ago the hammies had been issues they have been less so the last couple years. Two years ago he missed only 4 games. This last year I think he missed a week or two all together during the season when he had a slight pull of the groin I think it was when he first moved out to the OF but after that didn’t have an issue.
by MoralesHomers on Jan 9, 2012 1:38 AM CST up reply actions
Didn't he go on the DL with a hamstring problem last year?
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
yep to all
it may turn out to be a good deal but Howie ‘s upside isnt that huge and he’s been only ok for most of his career
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
by JBImaknee on Jan 8, 2012 11:57 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
How is Kendrick's upside not that huge?
He was quite a bit better than “OK” last year — if he can continue putting up 115-120 wRC+ over 130-40-game seasons while playing top-of-the-league defense, I’d say that’s pretty huge…?
Now, the probability for Kendrick doing that seems relatively low…
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
by huge i mean mvp potential
i don’t see it
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
by JBImaknee on Jan 8, 2012 12:02 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
OK.
That I agree with.
And I don’t mean to make Kendrick sound like Kinsler. I don’t expect Kendrick to display as much power as he did last year again, and his consistently bad K-BB numbers are an issue. I just think he represents relatively low risk for the Angels…
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
i agree
he’s a fairly low variance Guy. like MY five years ago and he got the deal MY should have gotten
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
by JBImaknee on Jan 8, 2012 12:09 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
They're not paying him like that.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011.
They aren't
I’m just arguing that it isn’t a super-duper incredible “My oh my the Angels are so smart and lucky” type of deal.
They locked up a reliably good, probably never great, 2b for a while. Good for them I guess, but that didn’t change the balance of power in the West or anything.
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
Doesn't take you long to forget 2010 does it.
WAR wise he hasn’t had a year like last year but production wise he has.
by MoralesHomers on Jan 9, 2012 1:23 AM CST up reply actions
In 2010...
He put up a .720 OPS and a wRC+ of 96. That means his offensive production was below league average. For a middle infielder that’s not the end of the world… but it’s far and away worse than his 2011 in terms of offensive production.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
His only real change in production was his Homerun numbers accounting for most of the OPS upgrade. All other offensive areas of growther were minor or about career average for him.
by MoralesHomers on Jan 9, 2012 10:33 AM CST up reply actions
Which is precisely why some folks think
that he’s likely to go back to being closer to the batter he was in 2010 — and, for that matter, before 2010 — than continue to be the one he was in 2011.
Now, defensively, the 2010 UZR number stands out as an outlier, but I’d chalk that up to what UZR is, rather than what people want it to be.
So, no: nobody is forgetting 2010.
Garoon: Banned on LSB. Available Only Via Supplement.
So bigsteve is obviously in the "action is always better than inaction" crowd.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011.
Im just a little irritated that we hear we about all these things we want to do with our own guys
yet haven’t actually gotten anything done (and have heard we wont with one of the key guys)
While we see teams like the Angels actually getting extensions done with guys and the Rays constantly getting deals done with their own guys.
Situations aren't exactly identical.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Why are you looking at what we're doing through the lens of the Angels' actions?
Until we get actual updates (like the one about Napoli) from someone directly involved in our FO, we don’t know how far along these things actually are.
This is results-based thinking and you are continually making negative assumptions when we really don’t know much at all.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011.
Sounds like it's time to DO SOMETHING
Let’s trade for Vernon Wells.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Negotiations with Darvish might have a lot to do with the Rangers inaction
by RangersfaninROK on Jan 8, 2012 12:18 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I doubt it.
I suspect they can multitask.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
I would hope we could negotiate with more than 1 person at a time
if we literally have to wait until Yu is done to see what else we can do it leads me to believe we are close to the brink budget wise
Except there's nothing to indicate that either of those things are true.
It’s winter… news is slow and you’re antsy.
So you want to find meaning in things that may not have meaning. Relax.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
The problem here isn't that the Rangers are doing nothing in your mind
It’s that they’re not doing exactly what you want. You’ve said multiple times how frustrated and disappointed you would be if all we got this offseason was Darvish and a Hamilton extension of some kind, and you go on and on about how perfect you think Prince would be.
It’s perfectly normal for a fan to say “I want X, Y, and Z to happen and not A, B, and C,” but stop freaking out so much about every piece of information we get.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011.
Im far from freaking out
Last time I checked we are free to post our opinion about a subject as many times as we like so how about instead of wasting your time telling me to quit whining you either put me on your troll script or just Z past whenever I bring up my opinion about our FO’s winter thus far
I really think with the speed the Rangers grabbed a closer
they arent counting on Feliz but simply hoping for the best
no NFL thread today
I would create it be I am on my phone
by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2012 12:04 PM CST via Android app reply actions
Go to the OT thread.
"The fattest countries have the biggest tits" -Texas Jihad, 10-12-11
by hornedfrogs45 on Jan 8, 2012 12:26 PM CST up reply actions
done
http://www.lonestarball.com/2012/1/8/2691826/chocolate-fudge-nfl-sundae-thread
"God dammit TAG I swear to God if you keep this "It was a close play" shit up all night I will send you cookies made from my own shit" -River Fenix 8/26/2011
"this is a big reason I decided not to convert to Islam now if it was 72 skanks? Different story, my friend" Bob Loblaw 9/2/2011
by I am Neftali Feliz on Jan 8, 2012 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
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