LSB Community All-Time Greatest Rangers Ranking No. 2
by philkid3 on Feb 22, 2012 11:13 AM CST
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PrintIn a shock to no one, we named Ivan Rodriguez the greatest Texas Ranger of all time. The only thing that might be shocking his that he only got 62% of the vote.
Now things get interesting, as we have to decide on who's No. 2.
Feel free to define "greatness" however you see fit; majority will determine what our definition is, essentially. Please feel free to argue your choices and others in the comments, or not. However, if you are going to include on-field performance in greatness, I would encourage you to at least do a little bit of research to make sure some of your notions coming in are in fact correct.
Only players who played in Texas are considered for this.
I've included everyone who I thought might get a second place vote. If there is anyone not on the poll who you think should be up for No. 3, please let me know.
Lone Star Ball Community's Greatest Texas Rangers
- Ivan Rodriguez (62%)
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I can't vote for A-Fraud... or Teixeira...
…and, I probably wouldn’t vote for Ted Williams in Boston, either.
These guys were clubhouse cancers. They said all the right words, but their actions left their teammates feeling like they weren’t good enough to be on the same team playing at the same level.
Now, the anti-thoseguys would be Ian Kinsler and Michael Young. THESE guys go out of their way to make new guys feel at home and feel like they can contribute from the time they step off the bus.
And, they’re All-Stars to boot… not just some bobbleheads looking to ingratiate themselves somewhere… they’re great players and their teammates are better because of ’em.
If at first you don't succeed, try the outfield! -- Ed
You need to revisit your opinion of Williams
Or better yet, read this book. Williams was jackass to the media but he didn’t have many problems with his teammates.
Having said that, he could have come in every day and took a dump in their caps and he is still the greatest Red Sox player ever and in the top 10 in all of baseball.
I will never understand the over-emphasis fans place on chemistry and players being “good guys”. Especially when they have ZERO first hand experience of what is going on in the clubhouse. How about the other players just suck it up and play and stop worrying about the guy across the locker room.
ARod wasn’t nice to the other players…… who cares, grow a pair and go fuckin’ play ball you little puss.
"A lot of people may not know this, but I happen to be quite famous." - Sam "MayDay" Malone
Teddy Ballgame won How Many Championships?
Zero.
Don Mattingly? Zero.
Leaders – true leaders… lead their teams to Championships. Self-absorbed, overly critical jerks (and Ted was a jerk to ANYone who hadn’t proven himself, yet) do more to damage morale than you grant credit. Not sure if Mattingly was that kind of guy, but I don’t like Yankees, anyway, and don’t see how he’s being touted for the HoF when he doesn’t have the numbers (or the results) to back it up.
If at first you don't succeed, try the outfield! -- Ed
Wow
So Ernie Banks, Ted Williams, Billy Williams, Nolan Ryan (I know he won a ring but he didn’t ‘lead’ that team), Ken Griffey Jr., Carl Yazstremski, Ryne Sandberg, Fergie Jenkins, Ralph Kiner, Carlton Fisk, Richie Ashburn, Rod Carew, and Andre Dawson weren’t leaders?
Just WOW.
"A lot of people may not know this, but I happen to be quite famous." - Sam "MayDay" Malone
I forgot one
Michael Young. Zero championships = No Leader.
"A lot of people may not know this, but I happen to be quite famous." - Sam "MayDay" Malone
Michael Young
And I feel like I have to justify it, so hear goes:
I thought about it for a really long time last night. Originally, it was out of Bell, Gonzalez, Young, and Palmeiro. I also considered Kinsler with them just because if you went performance-heavy, you could put Kinsler ahead of Young, but I weeded him out fast.
I eventually narrowed it down to Young or Palmeiro: one performance, one performance and other stuff. The more I thought about it, the more it just felt like Michael Young was more of what I consider a great Texas Ranger (there haven’t been many) than the other guys.
Yes, he demanded to be not a Texas Ranger simply because the team wanted to be better at the expense of his pride (TWICE!), but while that was certainly obnoxious, it also seems a lot like something Juando would have done. Buddy Bell was great and very underrated, but he’s not the Texas Rangers icon Michael Young has become.
Neither is Palmeiro, but unlike those two, Palmeiro produced a lot more positive value for the Rangers than Young did. In fWAR, for example, Young is within six career wins produced as a Ranger of everyone else. Now, they did have greater seasons than anything Young has produced, and I think that counts for a ton, but it’s not like this is a performance blowout. Meanwhile, none of them are the Rangers’ all-time hit king, none of them were a part of the greatest Texas Rangers teams, and — this is extremely important in my thinking — none of them were career Texas Rangers. Putting him ahead of Gonzalez and Bell ended up not being that hard.
Palmeiro was the only hard one, but among everything else considered in those last two sentences, Young also — overrated though he was, and for better or worse — became the face of the franchise for much of his career. He’s had good seasons at multiple positions, and I think more than anyone else in consideration right now outside of maybe Josh Hamilton and Nolan Ryan is what people think of when they think Texas Ranger.
I’m really, really not just trying to be different. I really, really would be okay with this going to a handful of other guys, and I really, really am splitting hairs between he and Palmeiro (who will be my next pick). But I really, really do think I consider Michael Young the second greatest Texas Ranger ever at this point.
Not the greatest in on-field performance, but certainly up there. When the subjective stuff that comes to my mind when I think about the term, he’s ahead of almost anyone. Even if he’s far from my favorite.
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>feels like he's an outcast for voting for a guy
>creates a wall of text to defend it
>that guy is winning
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Probably going Palmeiro, Bell, Gonzalez, Ryan, Kinsler next.
Ryan > Kinsler for the same reasons Young > Everyone not Pudge.
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Except Ryan wasn't a career Ranger, obviously.
And didn’t play for the greatest teams.
Maybe I’m making a mistake.
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but Ryan's impact
easily justifies a high ranking, both as a player and now. And yes, I am counting his current role.
Some see a glass half empty, some a glass half full. I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be. - George Carlin
Me too, which is why he'll make my top 5.
But Pudge, Raffy, Young, and Buddy Bell are going ahead of him.
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
Ryan deserves high ranking for what he did
not only as a player but as a FO guy..that said..hate him all you want but MY is about consistent as you come and done everything the team has asked, yes he whined some, but he still moved and performed at a high level..whereas pudge was a great Ranger i still rank MY first on his performance..6 time 200 hit guy..all time in alot of categories..he is what he is
One of the great things about Young is that he gave the fans something to
be optimistic about during a very dark period in the franchise.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
By the way, before it's too late. . .
You — yes, you — may be underrating Buddy Bell.
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philkid3
you off your meds again? :)
by RangerMad on Feb 22, 2012 11:39 AM CST via Android app reply actions
He went full Evan Grant.
You never go full Evan Grant
"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11
by vfn on Feb 22, 2012 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't see how anything I said was on EG level.
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First of all, how can someone be the second greatest Ranger of all time, when they were never truly great?
Young’s put up a series of above average/good seasons, but he’s never been truly great. He’s been a Ranger for a long time and he does one thing well.
"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11
The Rangers haven't had a lot of truly great.
Nor do I think truly great on-field seasons need to be the trump card in this. You have to tell me why they do.
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I honestly wouldn't feel comfortable even listing Young in the Top 5
on a list of “Greatest Rangers” when he was never actually the greatest Ranger on any team at any time.
He got the long term contract and he has the hits record, but he was never the team’s best player.
"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11
That's fine, if you want to weigh peak and on-field performance that heavily, that makes perfect sense.
That doesn’t make someone an insane beat writer posing as an analyst for not doing the same. There’s a lot of subjectivity here.
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I think more so the fact that you are disagreeing with someone who wants to
weigh peak performance very heavily as a basis for ranking a player. It seems ironic to me.
I actually think that word works in this instance!
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
I don't disagree with him wanting to do that, I think it makes plenty of sense in something this subjective and touchy-feely.
I don’t think any argument someone has made here in favor of a player is stupid unless I’m forgetting one. I just think calling the MY case EG-like is what’s silly.
Now, if we were arguing who was better at making the Rangers better out of Young and Palmeiro, then I would take Palmeiro pretty easily.
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The EG comment from whoever was a joke, I think.
Have you seen the Manny signing? I honestly think this is nothing but a money move to get people to come out to Oakland for the second half of the season.
He won’t be there for the first halfish, but they’ll have fans come out as usual to watch the young guys and see how the team is doing. After a few ass kickings, the place will get empty, then Manny comes back. I bet he pays back that half a million for them. Pretty savvy, I think.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
I consider invoking EG to be fighting words.
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by philkid3 on Feb 22, 2012 2:05 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Also, I honestly think I made a pretty good case for MY that deserves more than simply dismissal.
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If people want to dismiss your points, that's on them.
I’m blending it all up, FWIW.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
got to agree
his career OPS+ is 106. That’s hardly anything to be labelled “great” particularly when he didn’t bring much to the table defensively.
He’s pretty much just a compiler, and if the Rangers had been able to trade him and his contract, they would have and we wouldn’t even be discussing this because he wouldn’t be the Rangers hit leader, FOTF, etc.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
it'll be interesting to see where Nolan Ryan and A-Rod end up then
because the arguments that they are two of the greatest Rangers runs in the opposite direction of the MY argument.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
Ryan has one thing that works in Young's favor, and that's icon status.
Also, while he was really good, it wasn’t like A-Rod. There have been lots of players with better seasons AND longer careers with the Rangers than Ryan.
Ryan’s iconic hulabaloo, being the team’s only Hall of Famer, and such a huge piece of legitimacy when he came will put him higher than I would have placed him had I gone performance alone.
That said, lack of a full — or even particularly long — career in Texas has him lower on my list than he’ll probably end up here.
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Hullabaloo you say!
Ryan is the greatest player the Rangers have had on their team. He is easily the best Hall of Famer to play on the Rangers, and he meant a tremendous amount to the franchise when he played here. His stats were often league leading when he played for Texas, and he captured the imagination of North Texas with two no-hitters and his 5,000th strikeout. He drew a lot of Rangers fans to the ballpark, and drew fans to watching Rangers broadcasts.
The only thing to ever be as close to those iconic moments for the franchise were World Series runs the last two years. And while Ryan wasn’t on those teams…oh wait, he was in the front office that helped put those teams together, and he helped hire the coaching staff, bringing in Mike Maddox from Milwaukee for what was probably the best pitching staff in the history of the club.
I will be disappointed if Young beats out Ryan in this poll .
I don't think anyone is saying Michael Young is a better baseball player than A-Rod
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
Yeah, these arguments about how good he was aren't addressing much that I didn't think people commenting didn't already know.
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Also:
Tied for the highest fWAR in 2006, and led the team in 2007. He’s also been the team leader since 2005.
It was because the team wasn’t that great, but there was absolutely a period where he was the best on the team.
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?
2006
Millwood: 5.1
Padilla, Young, GMJ: 3.9
2007:
Millwood: 2.7
Kinsler: 2.6
Young: 2.5
"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11
Forgot pitchers.
It definitely had Young on top in 2007, though, so I don’t know what happened.
Okay, my bad. Sorry, Kevin Millwood.
Since my reasoning did not hinge on him being the very best on the team at any point, though, doesn’t change much.
Other than I might consider Kevin Millwood later.
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Then again WAR thinks Gentry was a "better" player than Nelson Cruz last year.
It’s a deeply flawed stat and claiming 2007 Millwood (5.16 ERA) was better than 2007 Young is dumbass.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
just how easy do you think it is to get 200 hits a year
Pudge was great catcher defensively and offensively..he never did it once
It gets easier if you think taking a walk is a terrible idea.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
I didn't say that's all it is.
I just said it gets easier.
Go look at all the 200 hit guys and their walk rates. If you’re walking a ton, you probably won’t get 200 hits.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
then the guys with high walk totals should have
high BA’S?…ian led us in walks..had a nice year but only hit .255..trailed MY in OBP, OPS, and SLG..
Why are you drawing terrible conclusions?
I tell you that walking less makes it easier to accumulate 200 hits in a season given the limited number of plate appearances and you turn that into a Kinsler should have a higher batting average?
That’s got nothing to do with it.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Sorry..the Kinsler lovers in here blow my mind
and i let it spoil my point..Im just saying it takes a great hitter to get 200 hits, especially as many times as MY has done it..it was like the people who wanted Dirk gone before last year..sometimes these guys arent appreciated for what they have done and are taken for granted..im not even a huge MY fan but i respect and appreciate his skills and what he has brought to the Rangers consistently over his career
I love Kinsler.
There’s nothing wrong with loving Kinsler. He’s a great player.
Michael Young absolutely is a great hitter. Anyone who has multiple seasons with 200 hits is:
1) Great at hitting baseballs
2) Durable
3) Doesn’t walk much
4) Probably in the first two spots in their lineup
Same is true of Ichiro and other guys like that.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
i agree there isnt anything wrong with Kinsler
he is solid 2b..had a nice yr..and hopefully he will be consistent in the future..but the article the other day suggested in 2yrs he will be possibly changing positions to make room for profar..he said he is willing to discuss..if that is true..my point is..as a solid MINf he has value but as an OF his value drops considerably
"Solid," and "nice year" sell Kinsler a little short.
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by philkid3 on Feb 22, 2012 6:27 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
went with Gonzalez
I just remember him being an absolute terror in the lineup for the entire 90’s, and he’s the ONLY Ranger who showed up in the postseason.
Plus, he had the greatest offensive season ever by a Ranger (as defined by OPS+ in 140+ games played).
He probably won’t win, but I think the combination of his peak performance and the duration of his time as a Ranger puts him #2 behind Pudge.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
This is already really tough
but I’m going Palmeiro here.
Some see a glass half empty, some a glass half full. I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be. - George Carlin
redo this list in about 2 years
and Kinsler might have a very good argument for top 2 or 3.
Some see a glass half empty, some a glass half full. I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be. - George Carlin
Agreed.
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
if we're going to count "off the field" roles (like Nolan's current role)
how can we not include Tom Vandergriff?
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
If you want to count off-field roles, go ahead.
If you legitimately would like to vote for Vandergriff third, I’ll include him.
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i'm not counting off-field roles (at least not that much)
so it’s not like I’d vote for him any time soon, but if the plan is to add in Johnny Oates, Tom Grieve, Mark Holtz, etc., then I think Vandergriff will need to be added at some point.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
Also, Oates and Holtz will not be included.
What does Grieve have that they don’t?
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(It's mentioned in the original post.)
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i gotcha
that being said, i think it’s even more ridiculous to weigh off-the-field roles in ranking guys since you’re only considering that for guys who played.
but that’s just my opinion. I’m not weighing off-the-field roles.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
Yeah, I'm definitely not going to consider Grieve or Ryan's FO time here.
I’m not going to stop people from doing that. The way to do it is with your vote.
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Face
Long career as a very good player for this franchise. Not the most talented guy to grace the uniform, but in the Hall of Very Good and all of that wearing the right laundry.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
You're so EG, guy.
You’re just so EG to think that. Way to be EG.
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I'm not a big fan of that last line.
I mean, if MY had his way, he would not be wearing that laundry now for 3+ years.
The only reason he is still wearing the Rangers gear is because no one wanted to take on that contract with the production he was going to produce. I’m not so sure that should be a positive.
On another note, teams may have been mistaken in thinking Young won’t be living up to that contract, because it has not been near the albatross we thought it was going to be. So far.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
That is absolutely true.
But MY’s little fits I don’t think made him particularly different from most baseball players. When I call someone out for the “ultimate team player!” bullshit, it’s not because I think MY is a poor team player, it’s because I don’t think he’s exemplary. He’s just selfish like every other athlete.
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I wouldn't call him not great because of it, either.
(I also wouldn’t call him great in contexts outside of Texas Rangers history.)
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But I think his selfishness went beyond a normal douche athlete.
He went out of his way to raise a stink, twice. Now he certainly didn’t allow that to affect his play, and for that I respect him.
But I do think that it would have been best done behind close doors instead of out in the media, but that could also have been the FO fault, as well. But if I recall correctly, most of the loud noises about it were coming from the MY camp.
Players who pulled those kinds of fits were either very good and were being treated completely unfairly by the team, or were being asked to do something negative or take less money for the betterment of the team, not to move positions.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
Maybe it did, I dunno.
I think it’s a great case for docking him a few spots, I just don’t think it did.
It certainly keeps him from being one of my favorite Rangers, but I’m just not going to let it affect his standing here much. If I did, Juan Gonzalez would also plummet.
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I suppose I put a lot of stock in player personality and douchiness, especially towards the club and fans.
Being “Greatest Texas Rangers” comes with the responsibility, IMO, to also be a good person.
I understand athletes are jackwagons in general, but I think MY and Juando took the level of douchiness up a level. MY with the trade demands and Juando for taking half days. Both get knocked a level, for me.
"I don't really like pitchers." - Nelson Cruz
That's perfectly reasonable, I think.
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Raffy
Votes for Young and Nolan are defensible (though Nolan less so than Young). Votes for A-Rod are indefensible. He played three seasons with the club. 3.
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
A-Rod's going to be like 10th for me.
But I think he’s pretty well defensible.
I mean, as you can see above, VFN can dismiss tenure above in like two sentences and says it’s like pulling an EG. Do you want to pull an EG?
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Longevity with the club should be in The Blender
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
I agree.
I don’t think it’s stupid to disagree, I do think it’s stupid to dismiss someone for thinking either way.
SB Nation Dallas-Ft. Worth - Christopher Fittz is better than porn!
yeah, A-Rod is not going to be Top 5...no way
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
OK. Someone put Sammy Sosa on the list.
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
Adrian Gonzalez too.
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
Oh, and Cliff Lee. Add him too.
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
Sosa didn't have the best three-year period in franchise history.
Again, I’m not putting A-Rod particularly high, but he’s got a case Sosa doesn’t.
SB Nation Dallas-Ft. Worth - Christopher Fittz is better than porn!
went with young
because this is a feel thing and I feel he best fits my internal criteria for greatest ranger (besides pudge).
I will say that my internal criteria will not be jacking guys up based on stuff they did post playing career so Tom Grieve looks pretty bizarre on the choice list.
This, it's absolutely a feel thing.
If someone is weighting performance, they should probably do the research and make sure they’re correct in how they’ve evaluated that performance, but that doesn’t stop it from being a feel thing.
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Young
To me the vote shouldn’t even be close. I don’t particularly like the guy or think he is great.
But he is clearly the 2nd greatest Ranger.
Yah your right
Went and looked back at how much time Palmeiro spent with the Rangers.
The stint in Baltimore always makes it seem like he spent less years here than he really did.
by PhilKidIsHero on Feb 22, 2012 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
Top 30 Career fWAR - As a Ranger
Player WAR Rafael Palmeiro 44.5 Buddy Bell 36.6 Ivan Rodriguez 34.8 Kenny Rogers 31.7 Toby Harrah 31.2 Michael Young 30.8 Juan Gonzalez 27.6 Charlie Hough 27.2 Alex Rodriguez 27.1 Jim Sundberg 26.1 Kevin Brown 23.9 Bobby Witt 23.5 Fergie Jenkins 23.0 Nolan Ryan 22.6 Julio Franco 20.5 Gaylord Perry 20.1 Ian Kinsler 20.0 Pete O'Brien 19.9 Ruben Sierra 19.7 Jon Matlack 17.9 Rusty Greer 16.9 Josh Hamilton 16.8 Jose Guzman 16.1 Mark Teixeira 15.3 Bump Wills 14.9 Mike Hargrove 14.9 Danny Darwin 14.6 John Burkett 14.5 C.J. Wilson 13.8 Kevin Millwood 13.8
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Oh, right.
Add Teixeira to the list too.
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
Kenny Rogers
Not only did I not realize that he wracked up that many WAR as a Ranger, I didn’t realize he’d gotten all the way to 50 altogether. (50.6, to be exact).
Some see a glass half empty, some a glass half full. I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be. - George Carlin
Kevin Brown got ridiculously underrated the last time we did this.
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If only we had kept him
imagine him as the ace of that 96 team
Dallas Stars Examiner
used to be under name hinduplaya
This can't possibly be accurate.
Pudge has more… it didn’t export and I have no idea why.
But ther est of them seem right.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Snap.
Figured out the issue… I forgot to remove the “Qualified Season” filter from FanGraphs
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
i do find it interesting that only 5 guys have received votes so far
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
There are about five guys I'd consider for this spot.
But one of them is Buddy Bell, who has no votes.
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Buddy Bell is my #3
Though it’s a coin flip between him an Palmeiro.
I give Bell the edge because he’s in the conversation for greatest ever at his position.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Bell was my #3 when we did this a couple of years ago.
But he ended up like the back of the top 10 or something.
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Frank Howard doesn't make the list because most of his time was as a Senator, right?
Even though the franchise is the same.
The biggest reason I ask is because you say:
Only players who played in Texas are considered for this.
Howard played in Texas. He just played most of his career as a part of the franchise as a Senator. And he was awesome.
Howard is considered.
And if you want to vote for him, that’s fine. I’d ask you only consider his time as a Ranger, though.
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I went Juan Gonzalez.
Huge part of the success that led the Rangers to their first 3 playoff seasons in franchise history. Won 2 MVP’s (even though they were both not deserved). One of the few players on this list that I identify as a Ranger through and through. I knocked Ryan, Rogers, A-Rod, and Palmeiro for those reasons. Rogers and Palmeiro especially because both both missed the all or most of the playoff years.
Young and Gonzalez are close for me. I’ll be going Young next.
Voted Raffy
He was my favorite player growing up and I was devastated when he got dumped for Will f’ing Clark. Then he came back years later.
He was a better player than Young in the years he was with Texas, and it was really no fault of his own that he didn’t stay in Texas. Really I think #2 comes down to Palmeiro or Juan Gonzalez, and MY doesn’t even come into play until 4th or 5th.
Gonzalez takes a hit because while some his seasons were great with texas, others weren’t.
i remember that Palmeiro/Clark thing getting really testy back in the day
they were once college teammates, and I remember Palmeiro saying some pretty bad things about Clark and the Rangers after they chose Clark.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
Greatness is defined by how many Tom Hicks
Education is what remains after one has forgotten what one has learned in school.--Albert Einstein
Try again.
Greatness is defined by how many Tom Hicks did you slay.
Nolan wins.
Education is what remains after one has forgotten what one has learned in school.--Albert Einstein
Top 30 Rangers by fWAR (but correct this time)
Name WAR Ivan Rodriguez 51.8 Rafael Palmeiro 44.5 Buddy Bell 37.2 Jim Sundberg 34.1 Juan Gonzalez 32.8 Toby Harrah 32.5 Kenny Rogers 31.6 Michael Young 30.7 Alex Rodriguez 27.2 Charlie Hough 27.1 Ian Kinsler 24.6 Kevin Brown 23.9 Bobby Witt 23.4 Fergie Jenkins 23.1 Nolan Ryan 22.6 Ruben Sierra 21.7 Pete O'Brien 20.3 Julio Franco 20.3 Gaylord Perry 19.9 Rusty Greer 19.3 Mike Hargrove 18.3 Josh Hamilton 18.2 Jon Matlack 17.8 Mark Teixeira 17.3 Jose Guzman 16.1 Bump Wills 15.0 Danny Darwin 14.6 John Burkett 14.5 Will Clark 14.1 C.J. Wilson 13.8
Previous version only added qualified seasons. This is everything.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
I'd say that pretty closely matches the list I'd have in my head of greatest Rangers
I think I’d probably have Juan Gonzalez a little higher, Kenny Rogers a little lower, and Ruben Sierra and Julio Franco higher.
I like Nolan Ryan.
I don’t think he’s an bad choice, but it makes me a little sad he’s probably going to win over players who were Rangers longer and better.
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Nolan will get a bump from me
For being the absolute focal point of the franchise in a positive way while he was here.
He inspired a generation of kids (including me) to love the Rangers. That has some value.
In thinking of things… I think one of my crazier choices is Hamilton > Juando.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
See, now that's why I put Nolan higher than I would if I only cared about performance.
But I have trouble calling it enough to put him above Palmeiro, Gonzalez, or Young.
I don’t think Hamilton > Juando is crazy. He’s certainly a less off-putting personality if you want to care about that (I don’t, but I think it can fit in here). He had a season that put Juando to shame, went ballistic on the Yankees in an even higher-leverage series, and I think has become more of a Rangers icon than Even Juan ever was.
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I'm not putting him over Juando, though, to be clear.
SB Nation Dallas-Ft. Worth - Christopher Fittz is better than porn!
I don't think Josh has been a Ranger long enough to overtake Juando.
And he is almost certain to be gone after this year.
If you prefer peak seasons, I can see the argument for Josh over Juan. But at that point I don’t see how you can go Hamilton over A-Rod. A-Rod is almost certainly the best Ranger by peak season. is Hamilton’s extra 2 years on A-Rod, one of which has yet to be played, enough to overtake him?
"If you prefer peak seasons, I can see the argument for Josh over Juan. But at that point I don’t see how you can go Hamilton over A-Rod."
Agreed. I will have Josh over A-Rod, I think actually one or two spots, but it will because of FotFness and postseason performance combined with peak comparison.
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i don't know about a season putting Juando to shame
Juando had some massive seasons that compare pretty favorably to Josh’s.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
Which one are you talking about?
He had one season with a wRC+ of 150 or higher. It was 165, and that’s pretty damn nifty, but Josh put up 178.
Then there’s the fact that Josh was a good fielder capable of handling center field, instead of a lazy prima donna loafing around the outfield like it’s a burden on him. Then there was his postseason.
Josh’s fWAR that year was 8.5. Juando’s best was six, and that was the first of just two times he topped five. And if you look at it from a rate standpoint, Josh destroys him since that was basically in five months (and, again, postseason).
I don’t consider that particularly favorable.
SB Nation Dallas-Ft. Worth - Christopher Fittz is better than porn!
i'm using different stats and coming up with close results
Josh’s best OPS+ (170) vs. Juan’s (169)
Josh’s best WAR and RAR (7.0/75) vs. Juan’s (6.7/67)
I agree about the defensive limitations though.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
wRC+ is better than OPS+
Because OPS treats SLG and OBP as equal… and they are not.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Slugging also treats a single as half a double and so on. . .
. . . when the relationship is slightly more complex.
WRC+ really us doing exactly what you want OPS+ to do, just better.
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by philkid3 on Feb 22, 2012 6:24 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Oh I'm not putting Nolan over any of them.
I think my order will be:
Pudge
Face
Bell
Raffy
Sunny
Josh
Juando
Nolan
Harrah
Hough
I give Josh the nod for the reasons you mentioned. It’s tough… Juando did play very well while he was here for even longer… but Hamilton was a big part of this team going to another level in franchise history. Juan always seemed so distant… even amongst the PR players.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
I demand you put Kinsler higher.
Demand it.
I can be even bossier if you like.
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It's tough.
One day. I don’t think the older guys get enough love though.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
BTW
If you had told me in 1991 that 21 years from now I’d put Raffy ahead of Ruben, Julio and Juan… I’d have said you were crazy.
In 1991 the order was:
Ruben (should have had MVP in ’89 over Yount in my 11 year old opinion)
Gonzo (QUIT TELLING ME FRANK THOMAS IS BETTER WGN)
Julio (FUCK ROBBIE ALOMAR AND THOSE STUPID CANADIANS SELLING OUT THE SKYDOME AND STUFFING BALLOT BOXES)
Raffy (When are we going to get Will Clark in here?)
I didn’t even know who Pudge was back then.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Yeah you did...he came up that year in June...wanna say against the White Sox.
That was a frustrating year to be a fan of This Thing.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
I thought he was 1992?
I absolutely remember his first game… just didn’t think it was 1991.
It was versus the white sox. That snap throw to first!
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
I wanna say he got a hit in one of his first two at bats...standard Pudge
line drive to RF…what I recall is that he looked like a big leaguer right away, very confident and aggressive.
I think he also got married the same day he arrived in The Show.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Nope, it was 1991
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
That's an awfully big True Ranger boost for Sundberg.
How much of that is post-playing stuff?
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Some.
Watched him on TV forever.
But I also have a ton of his burger king cards from back in the day. He won like 8,000 gold gloves at catcher.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Sunny was kind of like the Buddy Bell of catchers...probably a top 10 all-timer
when it came to defense.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
I think he's actually something of an underrated catcher in the all-time talks I've finagled in.
He’s probably just outside my top 10 here, though.
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I just don't see how Juando was less than a big part of his teams than Josh is on his.
I can’t see how Juan can be lower than Josh. Their best year is elite. And, Juan’s 1996-1999 were excellent, when he was the power core.
Everybody needs somebody to love... I need Yu, Yu, Yu! I need Yu, Yu, Yu!
I hope I haven't offended the Blues Brothers with this.
Steroids is probably part of it
And him leaving and then coming back and falling off a cliff.
Ask me again in 10 years when Josh’s career is done and I might feel differently.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
If Josh has another 2008 year in him and the Rangers go back to the post-season
I will probably move him up to 2nd. He’s only been here 4 years (very good to great in 3 of those seasons) and that’s the only thing holding him down to 3rd in my book.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Hamilton > Juando is not crazy.
"I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues." --Alan Jacobs
I'm a little puzzled by the Nolan vote.
I like him, but he had really only 3 great seasons in Texas before age started to get the better of him. And if you’re going off just 3 great seasons, then Arod should get as much support as Nolan.
The problem is that the myth of Nolan has surpassed what he actually did as a player, and is now overshadowed by being president and owner.
I was born around the time Nolan was here
so I didn’t get to see him and I was too young to remember the guys in the late 90s. imo I have to go with MY
Dallas Stars Examiner
used to be under name hinduplaya
Went with Young
but I had a tough time not choosing Raffy.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Then Raffy...
Then Michael Young.
Then Buddy Bell.
Then Juan Gonzalez.
Then David Hulse.
by ghostofErikThompson on Feb 22, 2012 2:39 PM CST up reply actions
I'll work Jeff Frye in there somewhere...
by ghostofErikThompson on Feb 22, 2012 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
I voted for Raffy
Just don't piss her off, otherwise she'll get all Dien Bien Phu up in your Boxer Rebellion - caknuck
btho Iowa State
then again i also voted for Raffy last time
go raffy!
Just don't piss her off, otherwise she'll get all Dien Bien Phu up in your Boxer Rebellion - caknuck
btho Iowa State
by MonkeyEpoxy on Feb 22, 2012 3:04 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I can't wait to vote for Ian Kinsler.
That’s gonna feel awesome.
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Keep these threads happy and intelligent, guys.
You know what to do. Or I should say what not to do.
SB Nation Dallas-Ft. Worth - Christopher Fittz is better than porn!
You sure are being bossy and confrontational in this thread.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011.
I decided I'd channel some Aquaman today.
SB Nation Dallas-Ft. Worth - Christopher Fittz is better than porn!
When was the last time I told people to keep a thread happy?
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011.
Well I guess if we're going to get specific about the kinds of bossy. . .
SB Nation Dallas-Ft. Worth - Christopher Fittz is better than porn!
(And don't be stupid, you know exactly what that post was about, and so far it hasn't been a problem.)
SB Nation Dallas-Ft. Worth - Christopher Fittz is better than porn!
Of course I do.
And I expected it to be a bigger deal, to be honest.
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011.
(This is supposed to be whispering, right?)
(Why are we whispering?)
Ever been in a boardroom, or a gang fight? Ever save a life? Ever won a court case against the odds? Ever held a dying buddy in your arms?.- jackanape on "perspective," 11/8/2010.
"do you a jet ski rental place would work here" - Mike E, 5/10/2011.
I don't actually know, just felt right.
SB Nation Dallas-Ft. Worth - Christopher Fittz is better than porn!
I've seen every team since '74...
Pudge is one of the greatest all-around catchers in the history of the sport and is easily the best Ranger ever.
It gets sticky after that because you have to stroll thru the Steroid Mine field.
2) Juando, even though he was an asshole when he was here and quit on the team during his second swim with the club in 2002.
3) Josh Hamilton…he’ll surpass Juando if he stays past 2012.
4) Raffy
5) Face
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Sammy Sosa played 139 games for the Rangers. He needs to be on this list.
Everybody needs somebody to love... I need Yu, Yu, Yu! I need Yu, Yu, Yu!
I hope I haven't offended the Blues Brothers with this.
he should be on just for sparing us Jason Botts
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
Fergie Jenkins probably should be considered.
He was probably the most decorated pitcher to play for the Rangers before Nolan came around.
He was a Cy Young runner up when he was with the Rangers.
Rick Helling might get a nod pretty soon.
Everybody needs somebody to love... I need Yu, Yu, Yu! I need Yu, Yu, Yu!
I hope I haven't offended the Blues Brothers with this.
For my number 10 spot
It was between Fergie and Hough.
I went with Hough because of his kooky character and because I got to see him.
Plus… knuckleballer!
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
I'm not going to lie...
I’m going to have Kenny Rogers pretty high.
by ghostofErikThompson on Feb 22, 2012 3:50 PM CST up reply actions
I considered him strongly myself.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Total on field performance, I think he's the top pitcher.
He has to compete with Ryan’s iconness here, but they’re right together on my list.
SB Nation Dallas-Ft. Worth - Christopher Fittz is better than porn!
by philkid3 on Feb 22, 2012 4:28 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Kenny may be in my top 5
I think Pudge, Ryan, then ARod, Young, Palmeiro, Gonzalez, and Rogers in some order.
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
Jenkins and Hough are falling just out of my top 10.
Closer to the time I’ll decide which comes first. Probably Hough because of being a Ranger, not a Cub.
SB Nation Dallas-Ft. Worth - Christopher Fittz is better than porn!
by philkid3 on Feb 22, 2012 4:21 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Helling soon?
I mean I’ll put him up there when you want, and he had a couple of nice seasons, but I’ll bet he’s not in most top 20s, let alone soon.
SB Nation Dallas-Ft. Worth - Christopher Fittz is better than porn!
by philkid3 on Feb 22, 2012 4:19 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Yeah I glossed over that.
Helling is WAY down the list for me.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Helling get a not pretty soon
if by pretty soon you mean within the next couple of years.
Some see a glass half empty, some a glass half full. I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be. - George Carlin
I voted ARod...
while feeling guilty that I didn’t vote for The Juangina Monologues.
This day is slightly marred by the fact that John Rhadigan sucks a flaming bag of shit. - LiamP
Baseball Fever once got together to do community all time defensive rankings by position.
Some of the most Dedicated researchers of stat and anecdote you’ll ever find.
Anyway, if memory serves, Bell ranked comfortably as the second best third baseman ever.
If he’d been as good in Cleveland as he was in Texas, he’d belong in Cooperstown.
Also, I think Pudge was actually first with much controversy. And Pete O’Brien was extremely high. Like maybe second.
SB Nation Dallas-Ft. Worth - Christopher Fittz is better than porn!
by philkid3 on Feb 22, 2012 4:33 PM CST via iPhone app reply actions
Pete O'Brien (from the eye test) was an outstanding defender...Nadel would always call him a "stylish" first baseman.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Don't become the '82 Milwaukee Brewers."
"You want false modesty? F that."
Steve Buechele gets a sentimental kid vote as an honorary mention for me
I’ll write him in for the cheer alone “Steve BUUUUUUUEchele”…maybe that is for another poll
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Woah.
Just refreshed the poll.
Didn’t realize Nolan was running away with it.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Ryan because I think he saved the team, at least for me
maybe not in the way David Clyde did, but in a more lasting way. Ryan was the catalyst to the Ballpark, which kept the team in Arlington (as opposed to dallas), he was very, very good here, and really the first superstar to wear the Rangers uniform.
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
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