What Ranger could get to 3000 hits?
Al Yellon has a post over at Baseball Nation that looks at the top 10 active leaders in hits and talks about which of those players have a chance of getting to 3000 hits, while also looking at the chance of three players outside the top 10 -- Albert Pujols, Miguel Cabrera, and Starlin Castro.
Yellon works off of Bill James' "Favorite Toy" estimator system, and it inspired me to take a look at what Rangers have a shot at 3000 hits.
The obvious choice is Michael Young. Young, who turned 35 during the playoffs, is sitting at 2061 hits on his career, and his bounce-back 2011 season boosted his chances of getting to 3000 significantly, with the Favorite Toy giving him a 25.7% chance of reaching the milestone. After the 2010 season, the Favorite Toy gave him just a 16.2% chance of getting to 3000, and a repeat of 2011 would be a big boost to his chances.
The less obvious choice is Adrian Beltre. Beltre is 32 years old, and while he isn't a high average hitter -- last year's .296 average was the third-highest of his career, and he has a career .277 batting average -- he's sitting on 2033 hits for his career, just 28 behind Young. Beltre, unlike Young, got an early start to his career -- he was in the majors at age 19, and an every day player at age 20 -- so while he's never had more than 200 hits, and only had more than 166 hits twice, he's been registering a 150 hits per season for a long time. As a result, the Favorite Toy actually gives Beltre a very slight edge over Young when it comes to getting to 3000, at 26.9%.
If we take a step back from what the formula says, and just look at the two players, it is hard to say who has the better shot at reaching 3000. Beltre is two years younger than Young, and has much more defensive value, which should allow him to play for longer than Young. On the other hand, Beltre hits for less average than Young, which means that he gets fewer hits season to season -- Young averages 200 hits per 162 games over his career, while Beltre averages 168 -- and Beltre has missed significant time to injury in two of the last three years.
And the third Ranger who has a shot at 3000 hits? Its probably not who you think. Ian Kinsler has no realistic shot at getting to 3000, due to a relatively late start to his career and a lot of time missed because of injuries. Similarly, Josh Hamilton isn't in the mix...while he's just two years younger than Beltre, he's about 1350 hits behind him.
No, the third Ranger who has a shot at 3000 hits is Elvis Andrus. Yes, the same Elvis Andrus with the career .271 batting average and just 448 career hits. The Favorite Toy gives Andrus a 15.7% chance of getting 3000 hits for his career.
Why? Well, for essentially the same reason Beltre has such a (relatively) good shot right now...he was a major league regular at the age of 20, which gives him a big head start in the race to 3000. Andrus has accumulated a significant number of hits at an age when most players either haven't sniffed the majors, or have had nothing more than a cup of coffee in the bigs. And the Favorite Toy may be underestimating his chances, since like Beltre, Andrus is an excellent defender whose glove could keep him in the big leagues down the road at a time when his bat may no longer be an asset.
Think it is unlikely? Omar Vizquel, who didn't debut until age 22, and who lost time to a demotion in 1990, the strike in 1994, and an injury in 2003, is sitting at 2841 hits right now. Elvis is one of only 34 players since WWII to record at least 400 hits through his age 22 season, and the full list (which I'll share in a table at the end of the post after the jump) is a fascinating collection of players.
Based on the percentages above, there's a 53% chance that at least one of these three will reach the 3000 hit plateau. Which gives me an idea for a poll...which of these three players do you think has the best chance? Cast your vote below, and follow the jump to see the 400+ hit/age 22 club.
| Rk | Player | H | From | To | Age | G | PA | AB | R | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | IBB | SO | SB | CS | Pos | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Robin Yount | 717 | 1974 | 1978 | 18-22 | 696 | 2869 | 2647 | 306 | 118 | 23 | 26 | 252 | 148 | 8 | 307 | 67 | 34 | .271 | .308 | .362 | .671 | *6 |
| 2 | Al Kaline | 710 | 1953 | 1957 | 18-22 | 622 | 2575 | 2314 | 351 | 103 | 25 | 82 | 365 | 218 | 23 | 200 | 34 | 23 | .307 | .366 | .479 | .846 | *9/87 |
| 3 | Ken Griffey | 652 | 1989 | 1992 | 19-22 | 578 | 2422 | 2165 | 311 | 132 | 12 | 87 | 344 | 222 | 56 | 313 | 60 | 29 | .301 | .366 | .494 | .860 | *8/D |
| 4 | Alex Rodriguez | 648 | 1994 | 1998 | 18-22 | 513 | 2271 | 2070 | 383 | 135 | 11 | 106 | 352 | 154 | 2 | 386 | 97 | 25 | .313 | .364 | .543 | .906 | *6/D |
| 5 | Vada Pinson | 626 | 1958 | 1961 | 19-22 | 489 | 2181 | 2003 | 359 | 125 | 29 | 57 | 240 | 152 | 7 | 275 | 78 | 29 | .313 | .362 | .489 | .851 | *8/97 |
| 6 | Cesar Cedeno | 618 | 1970 | 1973 | 19-22 | 529 | 2227 | 2050 | 320 | 135 | 20 | 64 | 275 | 137 | 19 | 300 | 148 | 49 | .301 | .348 | .480 | .828 | *8/973 |
| 7 | Edgar Renteria | 611 | 1996 | 1999 | 19-22 | 547 | 2395 | 2150 | 329 | 93 | 10 | 23 | 177 | 179 | 2 | 336 | 126 | 47 | .284 | .340 | .369 | .709 | *6 |
| 8 | Mickey Mantle | 561 | 1951 | 1954 | 19-22 | 511 | 2203 | 1894 | 389 | 89 | 27 | 84 | 346 | 299 | 0 | 382 | 25 | 14 | .296 | .391 | .505 | .896 | *89/6475 |
| 9 | Orlando Cepeda | 549 | 1958 | 1960 | 20-22 | 450 | 1906 | 1777 | 261 | 109 | 11 | 76 | 297 | 96 | 26 | 275 | 53 | 26 | .309 | .347 | .511 | .858 | *37/5 |
| 10 | Ed Kranepool | 543 | 1962 | 1967 | 17-22 | 648 | 2364 | 2157 | 201 | 88 | 13 | 48 | 223 | 167 | 33 | 289 | 6 | 12 | .252 | .305 | .371 | .676 | *3/978 |
| 11 | Hank Aaron | 520 | 1954 | 1956 | 20-22 | 428 | 1834 | 1679 | 269 | 98 | 29 | 66 | 267 | 114 | 11 | 154 | 7 | 7 | .310 | .354 | .521 | .874 | *97/48 |
| 12 | Claudell Washington | 519 | 1974 | 1977 | 19-22 | 484 | 1956 | 1822 | 230 | 85 | 20 | 27 | 217 | 100 | 20 | 326 | 104 | 51 | .285 | .324 | .398 | .722 | 798/D |
| 13 | Frank Robinson | 512 | 1956 | 1958 | 20-22 | 450 | 1968 | 1737 | 309 | 81 | 17 | 98 | 241 | 170 | 17 | 267 | 28 | 7 | .295 | .369 | .530 | .899 | *7/835 |
| 14 | Tony Conigliaro | 505 | 1964 | 1967 | 19-22 | 494 | 2047 | 1832 | 287 | 79 | 19 | 104 | 294 | 165 | 17 | 364 | 10 | 14 | .276 | .339 | .510 | .849 | *9/78 |
| 15 | Johnny Bench | 502 | 1967 | 1970 | 19-22 | 486 | 1963 | 1787 | 254 | 101 | 8 | 87 | 326 | 139 | 24 | 303 | 12 | 14 | .281 | .330 | .492 | .823 | *2/73985 |
| 16 | Roberto Alomar | 497 | 1988 | 1990 | 20-22 | 448 | 1959 | 1754 | 246 | 78 | 12 | 22 | 157 | 148 | 10 | 231 | 90 | 30 | .283 | .339 | .379 | .718 | *4/6 |
| 17 | Bill Mazeroski | 486 | 1956 | 1959 | 19-22 | 516 | 1989 | 1841 | 208 | 74 | 20 | 37 | 195 | 99 | 7 | 198 | 5 | 7 | .264 | .302 | .386 | .688 | *4 |
| 18 | Adrian Beltre | 464 | 1998 | 2001 | 19-22 | 493 | 1918 | 1718 | 232 | 88 | 11 | 55 | 234 | 159 | 15 | 304 | 46 | 17 | .270 | .335 | .430 | .765 | *5/6 |
| 19 | Miguel Cabrera | 459 | 2003 | 2005 | 20-22 | 405 | 1716 | 1530 | 246 | 95 | 6 | 78 | 290 | 157 | 20 | 357 | 6 | 4 | .300 | .366 | .523 | .889 | *79/5D |
| 20 | Elvis Andrus | 448 | 2009 | 2011 | 20-22 | 443 | 1880 | 1655 | 256 | 59 | 14 | 11 | 135 | 160 | 0 | 247 | 102 | 33 | .271 | .340 | .343 | .683 | *6/D |
| 21 | Bob Bailey | 446 | 1962 | 1965 | 19-22 | 470 | 1974 | 1768 | 226 | 71 | 10 | 34 | 151 | 178 | 4 | 279 | 31 | 32 | .252 | .322 | .361 | .683 | *5/7689 |
| 22 | Garry Templeton | 443 | 1976 | 1978 | 20-22 | 361 | 1544 | 1481 | 208 | 58 | 33 | 11 | 143 | 44 | 6 | 190 | 73 | 42 | .299 | .319 | .405 | .724 | *6 |
| 23 | Eddie Mathews | 441 | 1952 | 1954 | 20-22 | 440 | 1875 | 1583 | 286 | 75 | 17 | 112 | 296 | 271 | 0 | 259 | 17 | 10 | .279 | .384 | .560 | .944 | *5/7 |
| 24 | Rusty Staub | 438 | 1963 | 1966 | 19-22 | 523 | 2003 | 1769 | 172 | 75 | 10 | 41 | 224 | 190 | 30 | 207 | 6 | 2 | .248 | .321 | .371 | .692 | *93/78 |
| 25 | Andruw Jones | 436 | 1996 | 1999 | 19-22 | 505 | 1890 | 1679 | 257 | 93 | 15 | 80 | 257 | 179 | 21 | 368 | 74 | 27 | .260 | .335 | .476 | .811 | *89/7 |
| 26 | Carl Crawford | 429 | 2002 | 2004 | 20-22 | 366 | 1611 | 1515 | 207 | 55 | 34 | 18 | 139 | 70 | 6 | 224 | 123 | 30 | .283 | .315 | .400 | .715 | *7/8D |
| 27 | Ruben Sierra | 426 | 1986 | 1988 | 20-22 | 427 | 1775 | 1640 | 224 | 80 | 16 | 69 | 255 | 105 | 17 | 270 | 41 | 23 | .260 | .302 | .454 | .756 | *9/78D |
| 28 | Alan Trammell | 423 | 1977 | 1980 | 19-22 | 446 | 1724 | 1511 | 230 | 46 | 15 | 17 | 149 | 161 | 2 | 186 | 32 | 27 | .280 | .348 | .364 | .712 | *6 |
| 29 | Ivan Rodriguez | 420 | 1991 | 1994 | 19-22 | 447 | 1666 | 1536 | 175 | 79 | 6 | 37 | 187 | 89 | 10 | 227 | 14 | 11 | .273 | .315 | .405 | .720 | *2/D |
| 30 | Justin Upton | 413 | 2007 | 2010 | 19-22 | 422 | 1728 | 1517 | 226 | 84 | 19 | 60 | 208 | 184 | 18 | 447 | 41 | 17 | .272 | .352 | .471 | .824 | *9/D |
| 31 | Rickey Henderson | 410 | 1979 | 1981 | 20-22 | 355 | 1613 | 1365 | 249 | 53 | 14 | 16 | 114 | 215 | 11 | 161 | 189 | 59 | .300 | .396 | .395 | .791 | *7/8D9 |
| 32 | Terry Puhl | 410 | 1977 | 1979 | 20-22 | 366 | 1584 | 1414 | 214 | 60 | 15 | 11 | 94 | 136 | 13 | 123 | 72 | 37 | .290 | .354 | .377 | .731 | *87/9 |
| 33 | Ted Simmons | 408 | 1968 | 1972 | 18-22 | 374 | 1536 | 1405 | 163 | 76 | 13 | 26 | 200 | 104 | 16 | 146 | 4 | 8 | .290 | .339 | .419 | .757 | *2/3 |
| 34 | Roberto Clemente | 404 | 1955 | 1957 | 20-22 | 382 | 1548 | 1468 | 156 | 70 | 25 | 16 | 137 | 54 | 6 | 163 | 8 | 15 | .275 | .302 | .390 | .692 | *9/8745 |
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I am AMAZED that Al Yellon included Cub talk in his article
fucking astonished.
"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11
Profar
I hate The Angels so much, it's actually cramping my style. (See RevHaloFans SBN profile page)
Just go ahead and kill all of my dreams there, Heebs
I hate The Angels so much, it's actually cramping my style. (See RevHaloFans SBN profile page)
by Gay For Feliz on Feb 4, 2012 6:43 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Heh
I hate The Angels so much, it's actually cramping my style. (See RevHaloFans SBN profile page)
by Gay For Feliz on Feb 4, 2012 6:44 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
These subtle arguments about why Elvis is the most exciting player on the Rangers
is one of the reasons that I like AJM…
I voted Elvis, since I think he’s about to have a poor man’s Tony Gwynn bat with awesome defense at SS sort of career. I am one of the few who has long thought that Young has a decent shot of getting it
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
I wrote off Young's chances after last season
I didn’t think he had 2011 in him.
by Adam J. Morris on Feb 4, 2012 1:13 PM CST up reply actions
I saw him as a type who would hang on for a while just to get it
like Biggio or Palmeiro.
2011 made me think he’ll have a chance to legitimately get there
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
I thinks MY's approach at the plate
may allow him to “age gracefully.” Unlike Ian who I think may end up just dropping off a cliff.
by RangerMad on Feb 4, 2012 2:26 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Really?
I see the opposite.
I think Ian’s eye and ability to take a walk makes him a much safer bet as he ages than Young, who swings at fucking everything… if his bat speed slows at all, he’s fucked.
I don’t think either will ever touch 3K.
"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11
by vfn on Feb 4, 2012 2:49 PM CST up reply actions
Ian's approach relies on bat speed
when his bat sliws down we are gonna see alot of G4s
by RangerMad on Feb 4, 2012 3:18 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
In general,
I think that hitters with superior plate discipline tend to age better…
by VM on Feb 4, 2012 6:03 PM CST up reply actions
Elvis had better pick up the pace
unless he plays for 20 years
by RangerMad on Feb 4, 2012 3:22 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
I voted Elvis also
I soloed in the Mile High Club!
Do I count 8 guys on that list who had 3000 hits in their career or are basically assured (ARod)
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
Good
stuff. I voted Young. He’s the closest and alot can go wrong for those other guys. Plus, once Young gets close, he will keep playing until he’s 45 as a DH somewhere… at least I did.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 4, 2012 2:59 PM CST reply actions
I think Beltre has the best chance
but I also think Elvis is probably a close second and Young a close 3rd. Beltre gets fewer hits a year than Young, but he’s also a few years younger and I think will play as a starter longer than Young. Elvis has a great chance I think, but he’s also so far away from that milestone that its tough to make him the favorite of that group.
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
How many players have gotten 939 hits being 35 or older?
I think James’ tool is over rating Young big time, that kind of production late in his life would put him in elite company among older hitters, one of the best of all time.
Probably not many have been able to do that
but its not impossible especially for a guy like Young who is such a contact hitter. He got 213 hits last year and if he comes close to that again next season, he’d be at a favorable pace to reach 3000. The big thing for Young is just being able to get enough playing time when he’s 39/40 years old and older. If he is able to be at least a semi-regular starter at that point, I’d bet he’s good enough to get those hits.
Josey Wales: "And if you think intangibles really do exist, how in the F could you vote Ellsbury as the MVP?"
Adam J. Morris: "If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college."
21
Including Jake Daubert, who had exactly 939. Tris Speaker had 938 hits from age 35 on, Tony Gwynn 937, George Brett 935, and Eddie Collins 933.
There are 30 hitters who had at least 900 hits from age 35 on.
by Adam J. Morris on Feb 5, 2012 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
I think that we are discounting
How age affects players in thinking that Young or Beltre have legitimate chances at 3k. But Beltre has a shot for power and defense and Young has a shot because baseball coverage is unfair.
"I’d love to walk in and hug everybody every day, but that’s not critical to us winning." - Jon Daniels
by GhettoBear04 on Feb 4, 2012 5:20 PM CST via mobile reply actions
because baseball coverage is unfair?
Go Rice Owls!
Would be a Matt Harrison fan, but I only like superstars
"MVP votes"
"I’d love to walk in and hug everybody every day, but that’s not critical to us winning." - Jon Daniels
by GhettoBear04 on Feb 4, 2012 10:44 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Question regarding the cumulative chance of 53%...
How is that calculated?
Would you multiply the chances of each event not happening? i.e. 74.3%73.1%84.3%=45.9%, thus 54.1% chance that one of them does it?
I’m guessing that’s not it, but I’m not sure how it’d be done. My math is obviously lackluster…
Yes, that was it
Although I rounded the numbers when I multiplied.
by Adam J. Morris on Feb 4, 2012 5:33 PM CST up reply actions
Good to know....
I tried it rounded, still didn’t get 53%, and then decided that there was either a better way or you just rounded differently…
Probability seems odd, counterintuitive. Like… I was thinking about a pool of 100 players who each had a 1% chance of making it. The seemingly obvious answer is that there is a 100% chance that one of them will make it. Yet, in actuality, I think there’s only 63% chance that one of them makes it (1-99^100).
by VM on Feb 4, 2012 5:50 PM CST up reply actions
Continued tangent...
This reminded me of the debate about how unlikely DiMaggio’s streak was. I recall a simulation saying that ~40% of the time the simulations yielded a streak that long. And yet I remember reading Gould saying that the streak was incredibly unlikely.
Oh, who to believe….
by VM on Feb 4, 2012 6:02 PM CST up reply actions
Young would have to play until he's 40 and average about 200 hits a year to get there
With his defense, thats not happening.
I hate The Angels so much, it's actually cramping my style. (See RevHaloFans SBN profile page)
by Gay For Feliz on Feb 4, 2012 6:47 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Omar
still 160 hits away. playing the bench for the Blue Jays in his age 45 year.
prediction: he’ll get to 3000 with the Marlins in 2014
With the Blue Sox in 2026
I hate The Angels so much, it's actually cramping my style. (See RevHaloFans SBN profile page)
by Gay For Feliz on Feb 5, 2012 8:20 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Past a diving Julio Franco at 1st.
"the PGT isn’t about alerting drunk guys on their mobile as to what the score was." --goET 7-24-11
"Replace Ace? Done. Ace's was too long anyway." --Micah 1-17-12

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