Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Veterans Share Their Favorite Sports Memories

Sunday morning things

Good news, everyone...lots of Rangers stuff today, and just about all of it relates to something other than Nolan Ryan!

Evan Grant's game story has a headline about Nolan Ryan being impressed by the Rangers' prospects, but it is really about guys like Chris Davis and Elvis Andrus making the most out of their stint at the big league camp.  

Randy Galloway says Jon Daniels, Ron Washington, and Victor Rojas have all gotten onto him for being too sour, so he goes through some things to feel positive about in Rangers camp, with Chris Davis and Matt Harrison high on the list.

Galloway also has some Rangers folks responding to his criticism of Washington's offensive philosophy:

But manager Washington was upset with me Friday -- not the first or last time -- over questioning about his deep count-take pitches-geek ball offensive philosophy.

The Rangers, under Washington, have become The Team that Hates Home Runs.

Yes, it's a joke. Yes, deep counts are important. No, Washington doesn't hate home runs. But I amused myself with that nickname.

Mere survival in the American League is about run production. About power. And at Rangers Ballpark in Arlington, if you don't have it, that's a death wish.

Washington assured me he is merely attempting to "manage what he's got to manage." Meaning his batting order doesn't have a lot of pop.

But Daniels, the GM who still answers my questions despite a lot of printed negativity over his work, ran down the expected 2008 lineup, and with optimism, found plenty of potential home runs, particularly if Hamilton is healthy and clean.

Let me also mention third baseman Hank Blalock, who if finally healthy, can bring back the muscle.

Actually, Daniels' optimism on power is somewhat valid, based on the "if" factor.

But at the mere mention of The Team that Hates Home Runs theory, hitting coach Rudy Jaramillo barked at me, and jokingly (I think) called for security to remove me from the field during batting practice.

"Look, there's only one philosophy to all this," Rudy said. "Get a good pitch to hit, and drive it. What we are working on here is recognizing what to do if you don't get the good pitch to hit."

Here's what I don't get...how is it that working the count means you don't want to hit home runs?

Doesn't working the count make it more likely you'll get into a hitter's count, and thus get a pitch you can drive?

Doesn't working the count mean making the pitchers throw more pitches, which means getting a tired starter or a weaker member of the bullpen throwing you pitches, thus making it more likely you get a pitch you can drive?

I don't understand why Galloway thinks working the count means not wanting to hit home runs...

The DMN notes say Kevin Millwood's hamstring hinders him from fielding his position, so he may pitch a simulated game rather than a real game in his next outing.  There's also thoughts from Travis Metcalf on his newfound love of Texas country...

Anthony Andro breaks down the four candidates for the utility infielder job -- Ramon Vazquez, German Duran, Edgardo Alfonzo, and Ryan Roberts.  I'm embarrassed to admit I didn't know what position Roberts played until I read this item.

JFE has a weird pseudo-prediction up about Michael Young:

Talking to Michael Young has me a little -- just a little -- concerned that he is not going to be a Ranger next season. What is crazy is he wants to be, and the Rangers want him to be, but their collective timing might just be a little off. Young is ready to be on a winner, like yesterday, while the Rangers are realistically a year, possibly two, away. So it is reasonable to see them reaching a point where they have to say goodbye.

And, yes, there are other teams that would be interested in Young at his salary. He is underrated and partly because he plays for the Rangers. We tend to bestow greatness tags on players who have done it in the postseason.

I guess she's implying that Young is going to ask the Rangers to deal him, because he has a full no-trade clause he'd have to waive in order to be dealt.

And if JFE thinks any team would take on all of Young's contract -- particularly after the 2008 season, at which point there will be 5 years and $80 million left on the deal -- she's fooling herself.  If the Rangers wanted to deal Young, they'd have to eat some of his contract and expect to get nothing in return.  Particularly if he hits in 2008 like he did in 2007.

Alan Schwarz has an article in the New York Times about Milton Bradley.  My favorite part:

On the bottle incident in Los Angeles: "In Oakland I was telling guys about it, and it's like they were afraid to ask. I was describing everything -- everything about the fans, what they were wearing, the sounds I heard. They were like: `How do you remember? You were totally out of control.' I said: `I'm always in control. I'm always paying attention. I was just angry.' "

T.R. Sullivan has Poor Toby's Almanac up.

And the S-T's notes include Kea Kometani's 5 favorite Hawaii-based TV shows...

Comment 92 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Michael Young's Under-Ratedness
I remember back when Vlad played for the Expos and he was constantly called under-rated to the point he may have actually become over-rated.  Vlad was a vastly superior player and was deserving of the praise more than FOTF but I think the same thing has happened with Young.  Bobby Abreu comes to mind as well.

by LoneStarBallUser on Mar 2, 2008 10:34 AM CST reply actions  

mike young
also is helped by the fact that he's so respected among his peers - more so than any other player it seems

by ab03 on Mar 2, 2008 12:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Bobby Abreu?
Was he really overrated?

He was Mr. .300/.400/.500 for a while there ('98-'05), with good defense and pretty good speed on the bases and yet I can't remember him ever being discussed with the upper-echelon players in the league.

Who overrated him?

Look out, March. February is engorged and it's poking into you!

by thedirkatron on Mar 2, 2008 5:33 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure who overrated him.
He's been one of the most underrated players in baseball for a while now. He's not even as good as he one was and he's still underrated.

by philkid3 on Mar 2, 2008 7:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Here's what I don't get
People not "getting" that Galloway has no interest in bringing up valid sports points in his columns.  He's all about pithy little phrases and nicknames and generalizations and the over 50 guy who lives in Grand Prairie, drives a 10 year old F-150, and wore trucker hats before and after they were cool eats it up.  

by LoneStarBallUser on Mar 2, 2008 10:57 AM CST reply actions  

I really dont think youngs contract is as bad
as you seem to think.  A solid year from him and thats all I need to support it.  All of the team last year played horrible, including young.  A bounce back year and he is right on track with where he was.  To me he is worth every penny so please dont hate the playa hate the game ADAM.

Oh dont be embarrased about not knowing what position Roberts played.  I didnt even know he was invited to camp.

by NYTXFAN on Mar 2, 2008 11:03 AM CST reply actions  

So...
You believe that a bad defensive shortstop who hits .314/.356/.459 is worth $15-16 million per year?

by Adam J. Morris on Mar 2, 2008 11:07 AM CST up reply actions  

Yes!
If he's a gutsy, gritty winner who leaderships his team in to rising above its loserness in to playing hard.

by philkid3 on Mar 2, 2008 11:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Where has he lead us?
Look out, March. February is engorged and it's poking into you!

by thedirkatron on Mar 2, 2008 5:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Since he got called up
he led us from a consistent playoff team to a consistent 3rd and 4th place team.  That's leadership!
"We should have bombed it (Auschwitz)"-President Bush

by DJCahill on Mar 3, 2008 7:34 AM CST up reply actions  

How bad is that line gonna look at 3rd base in
two years?  Not as bad.  And I really dont see him as a terrible S.S.  Of course he is no ARod at Short AJM, but he isnt terrible.  But you'll throw some stats at me of course to try and prove me wrong.

Another thing, to me Young has all sorts of all-star potential but has been blocked by Jeter, who to me is maybe slightly better defensivly than Young and making alot more.  You dont see the Yanks trading Jeter do you?  No because he is the heart and soul of the Yanks.  To me that is what Young is.  He brings veteran leadership to a young club, gives you 200 hits a year, a 300 + average, and gets on base.  Did I mention Clutch?  Im sure many teams would want him despite his contract.  In no way is it not tradable.

But hey, thats just my opinion and Im sticking to it.  If he was traded, I would want a stud pitcher/outfielder that is major league ready or proven.  And if what people are saying is true and we would have to throw in money or recieve a terrible return, then there is no reason to trade him away.

by NYTXFAN on Mar 2, 2008 1:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I think the problem
is that Mike may not want to be hear anymore, if we can't compete.  That's where it gets ugly, I think Adam is trying to say that if he asks to be traded we're sort of screwd because noone will take his salary.

by thesplendidsplinter on Mar 2, 2008 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Not as bad?
That line will look much worse at 3B.

"Another thing, to me Young has all sorts of all-star potential but has been blocked by Jeter, who to me is maybe slightly better defensivly than Young and making alot more."

What?

"heres to you brett for making me get all wet" -NYTXFAN

by jparks77 on Mar 2, 2008 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

If and when you have
Davis at first and Elvis at SS then you can live with that line at third.  Thats all Im saying.

by NYTXFAN on Mar 2, 2008 2:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Why can you live with it...
...at third moreso than at shortstop?

And the question isn't whether that's a line you can live with...it is whether that's a line that is worth $15-16 million per year.

by Adam J. Morris on Mar 2, 2008 2:24 PM CST up reply actions  

That's only part of the question
Can you live with whatever his line will be at ages 34-36 at $15-16 million a year because I doubt it will be even that good.

by LoneStarBallUser on Mar 2, 2008 2:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Sorry guys,
I belive he had a bad luck year and will bounce back.  And yes, I'd pay that much to have his presence around the club.  Im not looking soley on his stats.  But since you are basing it on stats, what makes you think he wont possibly get back on track with better players around him?  This team is setting up nicely and with pressure off of him I think he will return back to the solid player he was three years ago.

He cant and shouldnt be expected to carry a team by himself like he did last year.

by NYTXFAN on Mar 2, 2008 4:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Young
what happens when he says he wants to be traded and you can't hold on to him?  How does that contract look?

by thesplendidsplinter on Mar 2, 2008 4:45 PM CST up reply actions  

It doesn't make sense...
...to say that he's clutch, but then say that he struggled because there was too much pressure on him.

by Adam J. Morris on Mar 2, 2008 4:47 PM CST up reply actions  

The amount of MYs
contract only matters if Hicks says that the payroll is too high and he won't go get the needed FA when the time is right.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen. ~Bob Lemon, 1981

by RangerMad on Mar 2, 2008 8:43 PM CST up reply actions  

That line
Looks worse at 3rd than it does at SS.  

You say that Jeter is slightly better defensively which is arguable.  It's also not a good way to defend Young's contract.  Also, you forgot to mention that Jeter is MUCH better offensively and that isn't arguable.  

This isn't a knock on Young but just how clutch can a player be when his team finishes 10+ games out of first place every year?  When does he need to be clutch?  

by LoneStarBallUser on Mar 2, 2008 1:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Clutch
It probably makes a difference on the pressure of the stuation, 10 games out or in, but I bet if there is a stat on hits with runners on, young ould be up there.  So somewhat clutch.  But, yeah, just bad contract.

by thesplendidsplinter on Mar 2, 2008 1:51 PM CST up reply actions  

If?
"I bet if there is a stat on hits with runners on, young ould be up there."

Is this a joke? You know there is such a stat, yes? And many derivatives that can be found dozens of places in less than a minute (depending on the speed of your connection, I suppose). That's sort've like saying "if there is a stat that records how often a guy hits a ball over the fence or touches all four bases in a single hit."

Anywho, in his career, Michael Young has 594 hits in 1,964 at-bats with men on. Last year he was 107/327.

In the 2007 season Michael Young hit .376 with runners in scoring position. Not necessarily proof that he's clutch (or how important clutch is), but wuddya know, you've got a valid point: that was good for fourth in baseball.

The Hardball Times gives him a "clutch" score of 11.0, also fourth in all of baseball. Doesn't mean clutch is meaningful or a repeatable skill, but for whatever clutch is worth, he was good at it last season.

Here is Michael Young's splits page on Baseball Reference: http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=youngmi02&year=00

There you can find his performance is almost any situation imaginable (runners on the corners with two outs in the bottom of the sixth while batting fourth in the line-up, stuff like that). Just PLEASE keep in mind that this is all a small sample size.

And if you were, indeed, kidding, sorry for the essay.

by philkid3 on Mar 2, 2008 7:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Lol...
Yeah, i was being sarcastic.  good eassay though. but I still wonder like you said, how this sample of "clutch within a game" vs "big stage" stack up.

by thesplendidsplinter on Mar 2, 2008 8:19 PM CST up reply actions  

thoughts
the yankees cant trade jeter. NYC would storm yankee stadium with torches and anythign else they could find

jeter should have been moved to 3b or 2b or CF when arod came.

imo:
defense: toss up (young>arm. jeter>glove)
hitting (avg): advantage young
hitting (power): advantage jeter
running: advantage jeter

mike young: last 3 years
ops+: 131, 108, 107
HR: 24, 14, 9
2b: 40, 52, 37
avg: .331, .314, .315

jeter: last 3 years
ops+: 125, 131, 121
hr: 19, 14, 12
2b: 25, 39, 39
avg: .309, .343, .322

jeter: 162 game career averages (13 seasons)
17 hr, 122 OPS+, 34 2b, .317 BA
career high's:
24 hr, 153 ops+, 44 2b, .349 BA
career earnings: 139,630,000

m young: 162 game career averages (8 seasons)
16 HR, 103 ops+, 36 2b, .302 BA
career high's:
24 HR, 131 OPS+, 52 2b, .331 BA
money earned: 10,340,000

m young:
most similar by age:

  1. thurman munson
  2. jose vidro
  3. barry larkin
most similar though age 30:
  1. munson
  2. vidro
  3. larkin
most similar batters:
  1. todd walker
  2. carlos guillen
  3. placiod polanco
d jeter:
most similar by age:
  1. r alomar
  2. r alomar
  3. r alomar
  4. r alomar
  5. r alomar
  6. fankie frisch
most similar through age 33
  1. r alomar
  2. f frisch
  3. ryan sandberg
  4. alan trammell
  5. pudge
most similar batters:
  1. barry larkin
  2. alan trammel
  3. ray durham
  4. ryan sandberg
  5. arky vaughan
over the career, who as a baseball owner, would you rather have. easily m young based on money

if jeter was in texas/m young was in NYC their all star games in would be different imo

jeter all star games: 8
m young all star games: 4

by knockoutking24 on Mar 2, 2008 5:51 PM CST up reply actions  

ummm
too much time on my hands maybe?

not sure where all those stats get me lol

by knockoutking24 on Mar 2, 2008 5:51 PM CST up reply actions  

You should read them, then.
It's basically that Jeter is a lot better than MY, though.

Sad, but true.

by philkid3 on Mar 2, 2008 7:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Jeter is suddenly good defensively?
When did that happen? MY isn't very good defensively, but he's still better than Jeter. The difference between Young and Jeter is offense. In that department, Cap'n Jetes (my least favorite player) beats MY (my favorite player) like a rented mule (god this sucks to say).

And what makes MY clutch? And how can clutch possibly be THAT important?

by philkid3 on Mar 2, 2008 7:36 PM CST up reply actions  

MY's contract sucks monkey balls.
"I think it's clear that he (Michael Young) made sure that the story (CJ's) got out. " - mjh

by Longhorn on Mar 2, 2008 11:16 AM CST reply actions  

So does Arods and every one is
praising them.  Hate the game not the playa.

by NYTXFAN on Mar 2, 2008 1:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Once the Face's extension kicks in
ARod will be making roughly 11 million per year than ARod.

ARod is so worth 11mm more than the Face.

Look out, March. February is engorged and it's poking into you!

by thedirkatron on Mar 2, 2008 5:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Sorry
"Arod will be making 11mm more than the Face."

I was typing too fast, watching the Mavs blow a game versus Lala they should've won if they didn't suck.

Dirkles is officially the only good player left on that team.

Look out, March. February is engorged and it's poking into you!

by thedirkatron on Mar 2, 2008 5:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Randomness:
There's a pretty cool view of the new Cowboys stadium from the hill Dallas Baptist sits on - across Mountain View Lake.  
Dat ting's beeg, Doc.

by shroomer on Mar 2, 2008 11:25 AM CST reply actions  

Hamilton's leg pain
I know it's VERY early but a guy with a history of leg injuries having leg pain isn't a good sign.

by LoneStarBallUser on Mar 2, 2008 11:34 AM CST reply actions  

Randy Galloway
is my hero...

He doesn't take sh*t from anyone.

Milton Bradley + Frankie Francisco = team chemistry

by miles on Mar 2, 2008 11:43 AM CST reply actions  

lots of losers
don't take shit from anyone.

its not very hard to aspire to that.

by ab03 on Mar 2, 2008 12:19 PM CST up reply actions  

+1
Being an asshole isn't too admirable.
Look out, March. February is engorged and it's poking into you!

by thedirkatron on Mar 2, 2008 5:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Exactly what I was thinking.
"Here's what I don't get...how is it that working the count means you don't want to hit home runs?"

Yeah, that made no sense to me, either.

The Lakers are engaging a triangle offense, hoping for equal opportunities. I'm calling them "the team that doesn't like to dunk."

My dad washes his hands every time he goes to the bathroom. I'm calling him, "the man that doesn't like asparagus."

These things are just as related.

by philkid3 on Mar 2, 2008 11:48 AM CST reply actions  

Yep
Galloway may not know this- and apparently a lot of other professional sportswriters don't either- but it's a fairly simple equation:

Take more pitches = get good pitches to hit/walk

Get good pitches/walk = get on base

Get on base = run production

Yes, teams that hit home runs tend to score a good number of runs. But teams that have guys on base when they hit those home runs (or even doubles) tend to score even more runs.

"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky

by RCCook on Mar 2, 2008 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

like a lot of things
this philosophy sounds good in theory, but has limitations. A lot of times the best pitch to hit may come early in the count, or even on the first pitch. The idea that better pitches to hit always come late in the count isn't necessarily true. So, every hitters going to the plate with the idea of working a deep count isn't always a good one. If the first pitch is one you can drive, by all means swing away - it may be the best one you see.
Pedro: "I wasn't cockfighting, I just have a wide stance."

by tricer on Mar 2, 2008 12:36 PM CST up reply actions  

reminds me of something
I vaguely remember a chapter in the BP book that detailed hitting averages in different counts. The conclusion was that counts with zero strikes are far more favorable to batters than any other. Going up to the plate with the idea of having a long at bat can often lead to pitchers counts (2 strikes), which greatly diminishes hitters chances of success.
Pedro: "I wasn't cockfighting, I just have a wide stance."

by tricer on Mar 2, 2008 12:42 PM CST up reply actions  

I think you're oversimplifying others' positions.
  1. The reason why batting averages are higher with zero strikes is because players only swing at good pitches (in general) on the first pitch. With two strikes they're forced to defend the strike zone.
  2. Nobody's saying it's a good idea to watch hittable pitches go by. If you can drive it, swing. If you can't drive it (until you've got two strikes on you), don't swing.
It's not like this philosophy is new. It just seems like it's difficult for a lot of players to implement, probably due to the fact that hitting is a hugely mental game and it's hard to adjust one thing without knocking other things out of line.

by a bebop a rebop on Mar 2, 2008 1:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Patience
at the plate is a viture.  The more pitches a batter sees from a pitcher becomes a big advantage increasing the liklihood he will recognize the pitch or get a mistake.  What has this to do with not wanting to hit a home run?  Nothing.
But people don't fight no more. They shoot. ~Milton Bradley

by TitaniumJoe on Mar 2, 2008 12:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Sorry
I know this is a very Rangery diary, but I just read that the Mavs are pursuing Tyronn Lue.  Ugh.  guess he's better than Barea, but...ugh.

In other news, Chris Martin has Galloway's bit down perfectly.

by brettgardner on Mar 2, 2008 12:07 PM CST reply actions  

Gallo is old school
If you make the pitcher to throw strikes and have him to throw 7 or 8 pitches a batter then he is going to get tired and make mistakes and be out of the game by 5th or 6th inning.

by Choclate ll on Mar 2, 2008 12:32 PM CST reply actions  

this idea
is greatly oversimplified.
Pedro: "I wasn't cockfighting, I just have a wide stance."

by tricer on Mar 2, 2008 12:38 PM CST up reply actions  

shroomer's recent idea
Barry Zito for FOTF...do you make that deal?

That's the kind of offer Young's contract merits, but I don't think I'd do it.

Trying to think of a position player who'd be a realistic trade offer and not coming up with much.

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Mar 2, 2008 12:38 PM CST reply actions  

Vernon Wells
?
Pedro: "I wasn't cockfighting, I just have a wide stance."

by tricer on Mar 2, 2008 12:39 PM CST up reply actions  

In a heartbeat
But it wouldn't work as a one-for-one.
Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Mar 2, 2008 1:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, I know it wouldn't work
I was just trying to think of a recently signed long term contract that the team may not be too happy about. Wells horrible season (85 OPS+, ~.300 OBP) probably has Blue Jay fans grumbling about like we are.

Bottom line is Young ain't going anywhere. I'm just hoping he regains some power.

Pedro: "I wasn't cockfighting, I just have a wide stance."

by tricer on Mar 2, 2008 1:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Looking at Wells career
It really not very impressive. He had very good seasons in 03 and 06 and the other 4 seasons have been no better than league average. Like Franchis Face, Wells really doesn't look like an $18 million/yr player.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wellsve01.shtml

Pedro: "I wasn't cockfighting, I just have a wide stance."

by tricer on Mar 2, 2008 1:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Young
I have sort of held back for four years now, and have no issue with the factual basis of either the improved fielding stats or his awful start in 2007, nor his power decline at about the same time he decided to get lighter and work on fielding.

It seems like butting the head against a stone wall to get anyone to hear "stop and average his pay over a ten year period, and make it a running average 2002-2011, 2003-2012, etc.  I guess the intangibles could be considered as well, since they rock the boat both ways (putdowns and praise) for others such as Jeter.  But intangibles aside, MY is no different than a corporate employee who comes through, first greater than expected, then tops that.  That employee may hold corporate office and draw down a dozen times over what he is worth at some point in his career.  Very comparable to high salary staleness in baseball, and exorbitant NBA contracts for players considerably past their prime.  

He deserves credit for what he has done.  He doesn't deserve ripping for what he may not be able to do.  Sheesh, it's like statistically sound baseball fans get more emotional (both ways) than others who are not so good at analysis.

'At Georgia Southern, we don't cheat. That costs money and we don't have any.' Erk Russell / Georgia Southern

by Ed Coffin on Mar 2, 2008 5:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Huh?
Why would you "stop and average his pay over a ten year period, and make it a running average 2002-2011, 2003-2012, etc"???

Why does what he earned from 2002-2008 have any bearing on what he earns from 2009-and on?

He was pre-arb in most of those seasons, and he agreed to be payed those salaries when he signed that contract.

I absolutely positively do NOT understand that logic.

Look out, March. February is engorged and it's poking into you!

by thedirkatron on Mar 2, 2008 6:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I think that there is an important distinction
to make. Should people like or dislike Young or praise or criticize him based on his salary? I don't believe so, and that whole developing dynamic is a pet peeve of mine as well.

But I think that many fans of Young sometimes mistake criticism of his value as a player relative to his cost as a criticism of him. It's not. I was very critical of the extension when it was announced and have continued to be, not because Young is not a good player and not because I don't want him on the Rangers. I criticized it because, in my opinion, it was not going to be a a wise allocation of resources moving forward.

And if you are suggesting that I would be incorrect to criticize the fact that re-signing him at that cost because "he's earned it" or something along those lines, I think that you're the one being emotional and irrational. Just because something happens in the corporate world doesn't mean that it is a worthy trend.

I will say, some who agree with my opinion do not do a good job of expressing it, causing others to think that they somehow hold it against Young, rather than the team, that he could hold the club back as they are starting to contend. I like Young a lot, and in my criticism I try to be very clear that it's not his fault that he is bafflingly batted third and will be dramatically overpaid. That doesn't make it a good decision, though.

by Brett Perryman on Mar 2, 2008 6:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Answer to both replies
First Z - no I have no axe with any critique of the amount of the extension.  I believe I posted "too much, too long" when it happened.  I do not suggest Michael has "earned" the highest years figures, not at all, even though I think some further escalation of median money for positional starters will probably happen.

Then - why the ten year running window makes sense.  It is ongoing value analysis, while pegging a guy at his peak income (no matter what his performance numbers are) is nonsense.  At the end of his career, you can assess lifetime (career) cost and lifetime (MLB active cumulative) contribution.  That time isn't here yet.  

No offense in particular, just a generality I think needed to be said.

'At Georgia Southern, we don't cheat. That costs money and we don't have any.' Erk Russell / Georgia Southern

by Ed Coffin on Mar 2, 2008 6:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Sorry
but you can't compare baseball player salaries to executive compensation.
  1. Very successful baseball players might play for 15 years. In light of that, a running ten-year-window is ridiculous. Barry Bonds would continue to be paid handsomely for another five or ten years, even if he never played another game in his life, 'cause his running ten-year window, well, it's got a 73 home run season in it! Can't forget about that!
  2. Context: in order for an analysis like that to make sense, you'd have to consider how much similar ballplayers were paid over their ten-year windows and the full course of their careers. I guarantee you that Michael Young will be overpaid in any analysis which contextualizes the data (barring a ridiculous late-career resurgence).

by a bebop a rebop on Mar 2, 2008 7:39 PM CST up reply actions  

No, absolutely not
that makes no sense what so ever and is by far the most specious reasoning I've ever heard from you, Ed.

How does what a guy got paid over the last five years influence whether he's worth any present/future contract? IT FREAKING DOESN'T, that's how.

For instance: Let's say you're looking for a residence and you find a nice little townhouse with lots of potential in a neighborhood everyone is saying is and up and coming neighborhood. The only problem is the landlord wants a five year lease. You look at those nice hardwood floors, the granite counter tops in the kitchen and master bath, and all the cool little shops and restaurants going in around the place and you just can't resist, so you sign the papers and take out a 5 year lease for about 1,000 a month.

As soon as you sign the contract though, the neighborhood completely blows up. It becomes the it neighborhood for young professionals, even getting a little national coverage when it makes it on the cover of "Neighborhoods Magazine". The worth of a place like yours instantly doubles to 2,000 a month.

There's no hard feelings from your landlord (though he does drop a couple of not-so-subtle hints on a few local talk shows about how he's not getting enough rent for his nice, well-respected-around-the-neighborhood property), and he provides you with excellent all around service.

At the end of your five year lease you go to talk to him about renewing, and he says that he's amenable to that, but "since you paid about 1,000 less per month than the place was worth for 5 years, how would you feel about signing a new 5 year contract and paying 1,000 more per month than the place is worth over the next five years?"

I know comparing renting a townhouse to employing a baseball player is apples and oranges (at best), but it seems like the same basic logic to me.

If you assess the lifetime cost and value of your time in the townhouse, instead of pegging the townhouse at it's peak rent, which would be "nonsense", then that hypothetical landlords logic about that next five year contract doesn't seem that stupid. But it sure sounds stupid to me.

Look out, March. February is engorged and it's poking into you!

by thedirkatron on Mar 2, 2008 7:41 PM CST up reply actions  

SIgh
At no time did I infer his underpayment for some of his past five years does (or should) lump onto his future salary.  I give up.  Evidently I can't express the view I wanted to present.  If MY plays 12 or 15 years, he'll have a total cost over that time.  The 80 large is clearly the preponderance of that total cost.  He will also have a set of career stats. That would be an overall price/performance calculation set.

Heh .. in fact I just leased a place (now moved in) for a reduced price per month and two levels of discount from that, in spite of a minor subprime mortgage exodus by homeowners to longer term leasing.  And I did lease for a longer than published term.  But I expect if I renew, I'll see a pretty good escalation in the price.  You did make a good simile, though.

'At Georgia Southern, we don't cheat. That costs money and we don't have any.' Erk Russell / Georgia Southern

by Ed Coffin on Mar 2, 2008 8:09 PM CST up reply actions  

MY
I think one thing that is being missed in this discussion is the differenced between re-signing an existing player and signing a free agent from another team.

In the case of re-signing an existing player, there is necessarily going to be more emotion involved. Casual fans (defined in this instance as those that don't concern themselves with declining players salary burden on a payroll) and players are going to exhibit much more displeasure when a team "lets" a player leave then they will when a team chooses not to sign a free agent on the market.

Players receiving these bloated, past-their-prime contracts is a byproduct of the collective bargaining agreement. Is there a team excluding the Marlins that doesn't have at least one of these contracts?

Were Posada (36yo, 4yr/52.4 million) and Rivera (38yo, 3yr/45 million) worth those salaries? Are they being overcompensated for past performance with their current team?

by Randy Richardson on Mar 2, 2008 9:42 PM CST up reply actions  

To be fair. . .
. . . Posada doesn't deserve to be lumped with MY and Rivera. He did have a career year. It's still a lot to pay for a catcher his age, but he earned his contract to a better extent than most examples of overpaying.

This does not mean I miss your point.

by philkid3 on Mar 2, 2008 9:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Posada
but I would argue that it's almost certainly an unrepeatable anomaly.

by Randy Richardson on Mar 2, 2008 9:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe
But he was pretty damn good in 2006, too.

by philkid3 on Mar 2, 2008 9:58 PM CST up reply actions  

no doubt
He's very good. But, considering this discussion of overpaying for declining players - he fits the bill. It's hard to find overperforming 36-40 year old catchers.

by Randy Richardson on Mar 2, 2008 10:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Posada
He's a guy who (at his age) presumably will decline, but the man above you makes a good point: He's not declining yet. Rivera and the Face were.

His 2007 was absurd.

(Though I remember hearing it was driven in large part to a completely unsustainable BABIP.)

And in the case of Mo and Posada, the Yankees can be excused a bit because they're trying to win RIGHT NOW, and those guys were the best available FA's at their positions. We extended the Face long before he hit FA, and we extended him right before we went into a rebuilding phase.  

Look out, March. February is engorged and it's poking into you!

by thedirkatron on Mar 2, 2008 10:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Young/Posada
When Young's contract expires, he'll be the same age (36) as Posada is now at the beginning of his 4 year deal.

We don't know that Young is declining - two years is not an irreversible trend. Although my intention is not to argue about MY's decline but rather to argue that teams regular overpay their own players for past (potentially underpaid) performance.

by Randy Richardson on Mar 2, 2008 11:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Young is declining
Most definitely so.

But that doesn't mean the decline is irrevocable and he'll continue to decline in the future, and indeed I think he's a good bet to rebound a little this year.

The fact that teams regularly give out contracts that seem to reflect their past performance more than their expected future return is neither here nor there, imo. I'm not sure what you're trying to say about this trend vis a vis Franchise Face (which is the context under which you brought it up). Are you saying that you think the Young contract is a good one because of this? Or that we shouldn't complain about it because if you look around the league it's an inevitability that such contracts get handed out to Faces of Franchises? Or are you merely pointing out that it happens?

My take: Just because lots of teams make a certain mistake doesn't mean that makes it any less dumb for you to make that mistake yourself.

Look out, March. February is engorged and it's poking into you!

by thedirkatron on Mar 3, 2008 12:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Young
I'm not trying to argue that his contract is "good". The fact is these contracts exist. We know that good plsyers are underpaid, relative to performance in their team controlled years. Likewise if a player makes it or has the potential to make it past that point and still be productive, they are going to be overpaid. I believe that is evident in baseball's recent history. I guess that was my point about the CBA in another post - it has been negotiated in a way that skews an inordinate amount of the resources to productive (and, yes, declining) veterans.

That having been said, it is my opinion, that overpaying to keep your own players is more rational (given their past underpaid performance) for baseball management than signing an equivalent free agent.

by Randy Richardson on Mar 3, 2008 9:01 AM CST up reply actions  

How is it
a byproduct of the collective bargaining agreement?
Look out, March. February is engorged and it's poking into you!

by thedirkatron on Mar 2, 2008 10:51 PM CST up reply actions  

CBA
These contracts have become commonplace because the CBA artificially limits the supply of average and above average players on the market in any given year.

by Randy Richardson on Mar 2, 2008 11:07 PM CST up reply actions  

How so?
Look out, March. February is engorged and it's poking into you!

by thedirkatron on Mar 3, 2008 12:41 AM CST up reply actions  

In any given year,
there will be very few good players with a proven track record and, in theory, there are 30 teams vying for their services.

This year, not one good picture hit the market so a guy like Carlos Silva was rewarded with a huge contract.

Supply is artificially low.

by Randy Richardson on Mar 3, 2008 8:46 AM CST up reply actions  

Ed,
It is completely retarded for any business to overpay for something just because they got a deal on it previously.  That is insanely stupid thinking.

If Charmin is on sale for a penny a roll, are you going to go back and buy rolls of charmin and $5 a roll just because you got it on sale for years?  That's just plain nuts.

"We should have bombed it (Auschwitz)"-President Bush

by DJCahill on Mar 3, 2008 7:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Yep
My reference is keeping what I got, at a negotiated price point, because I want to keep it.

Isn't that the Young contract in a nutshell? Too much, maybe too long, but ......

'At Georgia Southern, we don't cheat. That costs money and we don't have any.' Erk Russell / Georgia Southern

by Ed Coffin on Mar 3, 2008 8:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Unfortunately,
you probably aren't keeping what you got.  Michael Young is unlikely to be what he was over the last 5 years.

You have locked up a depreciating asset.

Signing Young to that contract is like buying a Bugatti Veyron.  If you have the money, what the heck.

However, since Young likely represents 15%-25% of this teams payroll over the next five years, I'm not sure we have the money to burn on a 5th-6th best guy at a position.

"We should have bombed it (Auschwitz)"-President Bush

by DJCahill on Mar 3, 2008 9:17 AM CST up reply actions  

Now
You are talking.  Bugatti Veyron, that would be incredible.  Wait - my insurance agent would kill me (twice.  Rate then the inevitable heart attack)

:)

'At Georgia Southern, we don't cheat. That costs money and we don't have any.' Erk Russell / Georgia Southern

by Ed Coffin on Mar 3, 2008 10:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Carlos Lee?
Juan Pierre? Alfanso Soriano? GMJ? Eric Chavez? Jason Schmidt? Johnny Damon? Melvin Mora? Miguel Tejada? JD Drew?

Pretty much anyone who's got a big contract and diminishing/diminished production.

I know most of those teams don't have a need for a MIF like the Face, but those are the types of guys I could see teams being interested in trading for MY if they did.

Look out, March. February is engorged and it's poking into you!

by thedirkatron on Mar 2, 2008 5:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Milton Bradley
is a beast.

I bet he's the Rangers most underrated player this year.

"LBrooks passes away... after the 'miracle' Rangers of '08 win the AL West." -slc ranger

by dstar442005 on Mar 2, 2008 1:22 PM CST reply actions  

+1
eom

by knockoutking24 on Mar 2, 2008 5:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Bradley,
Guardado, Jennings, Broussard, Laird, maybe Padilla if he'd get his act together, and maaaybe Blalock. Not a bad collection of bait for more under control talent if you want to go that route and if some of them have good years.

by Brett Perryman on Mar 2, 2008 5:46 PM CST up reply actions  

The assumption
is that Bradley is almost ready to play regularly (at least DH). I think the typical time to recover from a torn ACL is about one year. I hope he is ready but I think the timetable may be optimistic.

by Jea103 on Mar 2, 2008 5:57 PM CST up reply actions  

A year
is the timeframe for someone to basically be healthy. To DH, though, Bradley certainly doesn't have to be as healthy as a RB or WR, for example.

by Brett Perryman on Mar 2, 2008 6:09 PM CST up reply actions  

I freakin' love him
he's EXACTLY what we need in the clubhouse - somebody that sticks up for his teammates no matter what, lays it all out on the line, plays with passion and has high-end talent.  Some may laugh at the notion, but that's how I feel.

And I say if he proves healthy and produces, we sign him long-term - forget trading him...we can have him for 3 more years of his prime

"Look at our current situation with that camel fu#%er over in Iraq. Pacifism is not something to hide behind."

by Walter Sobchak on Mar 2, 2008 6:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Texas Rangers.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Hong_kong_small
OT: UEFA Euro 2012 Thread
Small
Ranger Rowdy Time!
Bc0nc_small
Minors Thread: Mid-Late May

Recent FanPosts

Neftali_old_timey_small
You should be at the lake - Memorial Day OT
Macho_man_randy_savage_small
Sunday OT
Small
Loking for Batters' Eye Club 7/24 or 25
Small
Texas Rangers: 2012 Community Mock Draft Picks
Macho_man_randy_savage_small
Saturday OT
White_blackpool_icon_small
Draft Discussion
Small
MOD#6 - Rangers (2nd Round - 93rd Pick)
Andy_small
Afternoon OT Thread
Macho_man_randy_savage_small
5/25 OT 1
Neftali_old_timey_small
5/24/2012 OT 2

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Yahoo_full_count

Manager

Th_buckykatt_small Adam J. Morris

Editor

477845_small ghostofErikThompson

Author

Matchstick_small Brad