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Rebuilding, fan patience, and Ian Kinsler

One of the ongoing issues that the Rangers organization has to deal with, and that us fans have been discussing, is whether the Rangers should just blow everything up, do a tear down, plan on losing 95-100 games the next couple of years, and plan on competing again in 2010.

And one of the arguments in favor of that plan, that is sometimes advanced, is that fans would rather see a bunch of young players who have a future go out and play, even if they lose 100 games, than watch a .500 team with veterans.

I think, though, that that argument is crap.  And the main reason I think so is the fan reaction to Ian Kinsler this year.

Kinsler just turned 25 years old.  He's in his second major league season.  He's in his third season as a second baseman.  He's one of the best young building blocks the Rangers have right now, if they are going to rebuild.

And yet, for much of this season, Kinsler has been the object of fans' wrath.  I've seen repeated calls to bench him, to send him to the minors, to call up Tuglett or German Duran and let them have a chance, because Kinsler just isn't getting it done.

Kinsler is just the most obvious guy, of course...there have also been repeated calls, at various times this season, for Brandon McCarthy to be sent down, for Robinson Tejeda to be sent down, for Gerald Laird to be benched so that we can see what Chris Stewart can do.

But this drives home, to me, the problem inherent with rebuilding...too many fans aren't going to have the patience to do it...

Believe it or not, Ian Kinsler has been one of the Rangers' three best positional players this year (along with Mark Teixeira and Kenny Lofton).  He's third among A.L. second basemen in Runs Above Replacement.  He's fifth among A.L. second basemen in VORP.  He's got an OPS+ of 103.  He's having a pretty good season.

And yet, he's widely considered a disappointment, a guy who maybe the team shouldn't be counting on.

As a point of reference, Ian Kinsler is having a better season than Michael Young.  He's got about the same OBP, a much better slugging percentage, and has been much better as a base stealer.  He's got an edge of 19 points in EQA.

And yet, the media, the broadcasters, even the fans seem happy with Young, point out that he's likely to hit .300 and get 200 hits again, while Kinsler is part of the problem.

I've mentioned before that the dichotomy between Kinsler and Sammy Sosa is remarkable to me.  Sosa is viewed as a success story, and yet he's a DH with a .259 EQA.  Yet Kinsler, the second-year second baseman, has a .276 EQA, and he's a disappointment.

I'm not sure what has turned Kinsler into a team whipping boy this year.  Yes, he's making too many errors, but he's also maintaining a respectable Zone Rating, and I'll trade a few more errors for a guy who has some range.  And it seems like his demeanor on the field turns some people off, because he always looks the same out there...but again, in someone like Michael Young -- a guy who Kinsler has been compared to quite a bit -- that is viewed as steadiness, as composure, whereas in Kinsler, some people interpret it as not caring.

But if the fans can't be tolerant with Ian Kinsler, can't put up with a month-long slump without calling for him to be sent down, then there's no way a rebuilding project will be accepted here.  

Because the team rebuilding is going to involve a lot of guys worse than Ian Kinsler, who will be playing worse than Kinsler has this year.

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Agreed..
..2004 was supposed to be about rebuilding around Young, Blalock and Teixeira.  These guys are still in their youth.  What prospects do we have that are better than Kinsler and Blalock?  

It seems moronic to think some guy hitting .320 in AA is going to be better than the guys hitting .260 in the pro's.    

I say keep this team together, and run it out for 2008.  It seems highly unlikely that all these players would have the same slow start two years in a row.

by mattrpav on Jun 25, 2007 12:50 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Michael Young
is no longer in his youth.  30 year olds are not young in baseball terms, more like on the backside of middle age.

Teixeira is the prime of his career at 27.  If he was willing to re-sign here before going to free agency, I'd love to see him locked up.  I'd also like to schtup Angelina Jolie, but that's not going to happen either.

I think we've seen what this team is, and thats a team thats not close to winning anything next year.  We have pitchers that are either not good, or injured, and not much of a lock for next year.  There are too many holes to fill to be playoff bound next year.

I doubt you can make a key addition and compete for the postseason next year.

I think Adam is right that fans will stay away from the ballpark when you field a young noncompetitive team, but I also think they will stay away with an old noncompetitive team.  So the question is, what plan makes you a competitive team the quickest.  We've seen what playing for the next year has acheived, and thats been pretty woeful in the '00s.

The only folks paying to see bad baseball, are corporations who are writing off the tickets, and fans of the other team.

Mitt Romney should "get out his small-varmint gun and drive those Guatemalans off his lawn" -- Sen John McCain

by DJCahill on Jun 25, 2007 1:03 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Paid attendance, anyway
The games that Ive seen on TV look fairly empty.

I wonder how much of that attendance boost is corporate season tickets that go empty?

Mitt Romney should "get out his small-varmint gun and drive those Guatemalans off his lawn" -- Sen John McCain

by DJCahill on Jun 25, 2007 11:05 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ian Kinsler
I don't understand the Kinsler bashing either.

He is probably the brightest spot on this team so far - he's the one player currently on the team who I can see as obviously playing a major part of a playoff run in 3 years.  I don't understand why people don't forgive a 2nd year player for pressing when they were all so quick to dismiss major slumps from Young and (to a lesser extent) Teixeira.  

I agree that this team has too great a history of fighting failure by giving up on young guys struggling.  If you ask me, guys like Tejeda, McCarthy, Loe, Kinsler, and CJ are the bright spot of this club, not the problem.

Filling in the bumps in the road means taking dirt off of the mountains.  That just gives you a nice, level surface of mediocrity year in, year out.  And we know Texans like flat.

by JBImaknee on Jun 25, 2007 12:58 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Whipping boy
We have an entire team of whipping boys right now, but with Kinsler I think it all comes down to batting average and defense.  He's made some errors, but the first stat most people look at is batting average.  If he was hitting a weak .280 but with a .300 OBA and weak slugging perc. most fans and media would be saying he's having a fine sophomore year.

There will be incredible pressure on Daniels to get prospects that can help the team very soon, like next year at the latest.  I don't think he has convinced Hicks to look at the long term picture (if that is even his own goal) and that would be a failure to me.  If he has and Hicks is just holding his tongue on rebuilding vs. "building" I don't blame him one bit for the verbal jockeying.

by t ball on Jun 25, 2007 1:00 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i think you are overestimating the kinsler bashing
ive said many times that i was dissapointed with how his may and june had been so terrible (picking it up a bit latley tohugh), but merely being dissapointed with taht doesnt somehow mean i think he needs to be sent down.

yeah ive seen the occasional comment that he needs to go to AAA to figure things out by a random fan, but i really dont see this mass send kinsler to AAA movement youve mentioned 3 or 4 times.

people just got really excited in april for an all star type year and got let down by his long slump.

that said, i do agree with the general argument about rebuilding/patience.

by DSheppard on Jun 25, 2007 1:03 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i agree
the whole post seems to kinda come outta left field.  i don't know any rangers fan who seriously believes Kinsler should be sent down.  And I know that same person wouldn't be stupid enough to say that Sammy Sosa should continue starting everyday.

by chrispi on Jun 25, 2007 1:46 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

me too
I don't think people on this site have been complaining about Kinsler, and these are the people that have been talking about rebuilding.

A casual fan would complain, and while they fill a good portion of attendance, and might stay away from RBiA, they'd come back in droves if the rebuild was actually successful.

Maybe some people in the DFW media or people who post on seamheads are complaining, but not on here. The only gripe has been Kinsler's defensive problems. I've cringed at some of the things he's done in the field, but my complaints mostly deal with the mental errors.

Well Mr. Burns had done it. The power plant had won it. With Roger Clemens clucking all the while.

by WyoRanger on Jun 25, 2007 2:23 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed I was thrown alittle by this post
"I'm an aggressive guy, I'm not a guy who's going to go up there and swing like a girl." - Sammy Sosa

by cgolden on Jun 25, 2007 4:16 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kinsler bashing
I don't think Adam means people from this blog, but more the casual fan and Ticket caller type who doesn't follow the game quite as closely.  That is the majority of the fanbase, of course, and it's those people who (whether or not they support Kinsler) wouldn't be patient with a rebuilding process.  Attendance would plummet next year if the team publicly said it was rebuilding.  Of course, it probably will anyway, so they might as well!

by t ball on Jun 25, 2007 5:54 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am one...
of the proponents of blowing this thing up and letting the kids play (a la the Devil Rays from last year), but I have nothing against Kinsler and feel that he should be at 2B for good.
"Chip" first person on LSB to be berated by someone on the 25-man roster. - RangerMoto

by ortonius on Jun 25, 2007 1:03 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Kinsler hate
I haven't really noticed much of it, but if it is going on, its pretty stupid.

If we could find a couple more shorties at his level of ability, our future would look pretty bright.

"Why wasn't I moved by Million Dollar Baby? Because I have no soul, that's why." The Dirkatron, movie hater

by Brian Thomas on Jun 25, 2007 1:05 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

BACK OFF KINSLER !!
He's going through his sophomore jinx..hes mashing home runs..he could conceivably hit 30 this year..who'd of thunk? His average will certainly go up..the guys has a succesful track record in the minors of being an exceptional hitter..he'll figure it out..once his hitting comes around he'll be more relaxed and not make the bonehead errors hes been making ..and hes
the cutest Ranger on the field..so give the guy a break !
GayRangerFan

by RangerDisaster on Jun 25, 2007 1:06 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sophomore Jinx?
Ian Kinsler (25) 2nd season, partial .243/.332/.458  14HR 11 SB
Michael Young (25) 2nd Full year  .262/.308/.382  9 HR 6 SB

Unfortunately Kinsler's defense is not particularly good, but he is still new at the position.  Hopefully it improves.

Mitt Romney should "get out his small-varmint gun and drive those Guatemalans off his lawn" -- Sen John McCain

by DJCahill on Jun 25, 2007 1:12 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pitching
To me, the problem is/was that during the last "rebuild" (if one wants to call dumping ARod and making the core Young/Tex/Blalock a rebuild) the Rangers failed to build a pitching staff.
If you buy into the premise that pitching matures later than hitting, then the team was "rebuilt" backwards. It would have made more sense to build around a core of 2 or 3 solid starting pitchers, and then fill in around them with young position players. Yes, I realize that teams don't always have a choice in this matter, but I have to think that there were some opportunities to pick up pitching that were passed by.
Instead, the Rangers have let their young position prospects mature into veterans and filled in around them with 2-3 young pitchers that might be good in a year or two.

by Brandon Wilson on Jun 25, 2007 1:07 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pitching
I think they tried to focus on pitching, it just hasn't worked out like we hoped. DVD was a bust and the other pitchers have become useful bullpen arms or have struggled with injuries or effectiveness. I think the club was on the right track, and I think we need to stick with the plan.
loves me some "loves me some"

by trza on Jun 25, 2007 1:14 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yea
they have had horrible luck with their 1b prospects too -- jon vanbenschoten, brian bullington, sean burnett -- i think 3 of their last 4 1st rd picks have had arm/shoulder surgery.

by knockoutking24 on Jun 25, 2007 1:33 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

DVD
DVD (whether they were a bust or not) were on track to come to the majors later than Young/Tex/Hank, that's kind of my point.

by Brandon Wilson on Jun 25, 2007 4:23 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

defense

The most disappointing aspect of Kinsler's game is his inability to play 2nd base this season, not his offense.  

by doolindalton on Jun 25, 2007 1:21 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kinsler
He hasn't been unable to play second base this season.

He's just not been that great at it.

by Adam J. Morris on Jun 25, 2007 1:33 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kinsler
wasn't the big thing with him how great he was defensively at short?
"Pimps be damned, it's harder out here for a Rangers fan!" "If you don't throw strikes first, you're last."

by rentz on Jun 25, 2007 1:36 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

defense
Hasn't Kinsler been below average defensively at second base this year? Soriano was viewed as an awful 2nd baseman by most and he had 21 & 23 errors while here while Kinsler is on pace for 30.

by Brandon Wilson on Jun 25, 2007 2:00 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Soriano
His biggest problem was a lack of range.

by Adam J. Morris on Jun 25, 2007 2:04 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You've said that before
And I still don't know what you mean...
"Why wasn't I moved by Million Dollar Baby? Because I have no soul, that's why." The Dirkatron, movie hater

by Brian Thomas on Jun 25, 2007 2:14 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I recall
Soriano having decent range, but in most noncritical situations he mentally was picking the daisys, and making stupid errors.
Mitt Romney should "get out his small-varmint gun and drive those Guatemalans off his lawn" -- Sen John McCain

by DJCahill on Jun 25, 2007 2:23 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

soriano
i've seen him do the same exact stuff playing left field for the cubs.... he's just like manny out there in left field, just with more speed
"Pimps be damned, it's harder out here for a Rangers fan!" "If you don't throw strikes first, you're last."

by rentz on Jun 25, 2007 2:25 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that fits my memories perfectly
"Why wasn't I moved by Million Dollar Baby? Because I have no soul, that's why." The Dirkatron, movie hater

by Brian Thomas on Jun 25, 2007 2:32 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

soriano's range
I could be mis-remembering things but I recall Soriano having some pretty low ZRs at 2nd base.

by Brian Hayes on Jun 25, 2007 2:36 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ZR
from ESPN's stats:
2004 Soriano - .799, 7th in ZR in the AL (out of 10)
2005 Soriano - .808, 8th in the AL (out of 8)
2006 Kinsler - .815, 9th in the AL (out of 11)
2007 Kinsler - .810, 9th in the AL (out of 12)

I don't think stats are everything but based on ZR Soriano and Kinsler appear to be very similar players to me. That confirms my memory as well, that they were both capable of making the athletic play, but just as capable of watching one scoot between their legs.

by Brandon Wilson on Jun 25, 2007 4:00 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

RF
using ESPN's data for Range Factor:
2004 Soriano - 5.24, 2nd in the AL (out of 10)
2005 Soriano - 4.88, 4th in the AL (out of 8)
2006 Kinsler - 5.58, 1st in the AL (out of 11)
2007 Kinsler - 5.73, 1st in the AL (out of 12)

Kinsler certainly would appear to have better range based on these numbers (as I said below numbers may not be everything, but it is significant), but I wouldn't say Soriano's main problem was range. He was above average in range, but below average in zone rating (which I think translates into he couldn't make all the plays he got to). Kinsler may have better range, but based on his zone rating he is just about as bad (perhaps even worse) at converting those chances.

Comparing the two in ZR and RF I'd say they both demonstrate inconsistency at converting chances. While range plays a factor for them, consistency seems to be the bigger factor (which is reflected in their error rates).

by Brandon Wilson on Jun 25, 2007 4:14 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

range factor
is truly a terrible stat.  its putouts plus assists.  anyway, it tells you squat.  ZR is much better.
Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Jun 25, 2007 7:56 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

errors
He makes too many of them.  Semantics aside, in order to play second base at a major league level, one has to make routine plays without a consistent stream of errors.  Kinsler is unable to meet that definition of minimum competence.    

by doolindalton on Jun 25, 2007 3:48 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Okay
What fielding percentage would you say is required to be minimally competent?

by Adam J. Morris on Jun 25, 2007 4:13 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

fielding pct
I don't think .985 is too much to ask, but I'd trade some of that for range... given his range is at the higher end, maybe .975-.980 would be good. In any case I don't think you can argue that his .966 is good enough.

by Brandon Wilson on Jun 25, 2007 4:18 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It needs to be better
But I don't think it makes sense to say it isn't high enough to be minimally competent as a major league second baseman.

by Adam J. Morris on Jun 25, 2007 5:01 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

defense is a lot less important than offense
There's not enough variance between different second basemen's defensive abilities for defense to matter as much offensive performance.  Despite the occasional error, Kinsler plays major-league-caliber defense.  My main concern is getting the average and OBP up.  He has the talent to be a .300 hitter with a .380 OBP, but I think the power surge at the beginning of the year got him thinking too much about the long ball.  He just needs to relax and hit line drives.

by chrispi on Jun 25, 2007 1:51 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Although
defense is slightly less important than offense, because you can't actualy outhit bad pitching and a good chunk of bad pitching is inadequate defense, Kinsler is neither bad offensively nor defensively.

His 'catch the eye' issues are being sporadic, with the errors or misplays happening at the worst possible moment, and his offensive shows spotty rather than day by day consistent.  He'll be fine.

Time does funny things. The worst of which is, it keeps moving when you don't.

by Ed Coffin on Jun 25, 2007 1:55 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

good defense
might be more important if kinsler wasn't playing second base.  I would charge that at his position, he's not affecting very many outcomes.  
Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Jun 25, 2007 1:57 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's true
I think that SS and CF are the only positions were there's enough skill variability for defensive deficiencies to become a big deal.

by chrispi on Jun 25, 2007 2:05 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

defense
I'd put catcher ahead of SS and CF, but 2B would be next after those 3 in my book... it is utterly demoralizing for a pitcher to get the ground ball out that scoots through the second baseman. Almost as demoralizing as the offense must feel when they come to the plate trailing 2-0 everyday.

by Brandon Wilson on Jun 25, 2007 4:04 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

defense
I was just thinking, that perhaps on day's were Young is the DH perhaps kinsler should slide over to SS and let hairston or vazquez play second.
THough im sure that wont help kinsler learn 2b, but i'd like to see what he can do at ss
"Pimps be damned, it's harder out here for a Rangers fan!" "If you don't throw strikes first, you're last."

by rentz on Jun 25, 2007 2:12 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kinsler at SS
I saw him there about a half-dozen times at Frisco. He was OK with the glove and seemed to be able to cover the position, but his arm looked pretty weak there. Not quite David Eckstein weak, but close.
"Then I met some friends for a beer, went to a BoDeans's concert, and son of a vondruke, if I didn't leave him at the concert hall."

by RCCook on Jun 25, 2007 2:29 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no
Individual defensive variability is a lot less pronounced than offensive variability.  If Kinsler commits ten more errors than a Gold Glove second baseman, that means that over the course of a season, the Rangers have allowed ten extra guys to get on base instead of getting outs.  That's the same effect as a guy getting ten more hits than another guy (in the same number of ABs).  Those ten extra hits translate to 2 points on a batting in a 500 AB season.  If you wouldn't say that a .290 average is appreciably different than a .288 average, then it's hard to say that Kinsler making a few extra errors really hurts his value all that much.  This is especially true considering that he's replacing Alfonso Soriano, who was no defensive stalwart.  But Soriano's offensive abilities made up for those defensive deficiencies.

by chrispi on Jun 25, 2007 2:03 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

agree...but
I agree with your point. Offense is massively more important than defensive for position players at the major league level (other than SS and CF, where it's only considerably more important rather than massively more important).

However, the difference in 10 extra hits over a 500 ab season is 20 points, not 2 (i.e. a guy qith 150 hits in 500 ab hit .300 whereas a guy with 140 hits hit .280)

by Brian Hayes on Jun 25, 2007 2:34 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you're exactly right
sorry about that.  

My point is still the same, as 20 points on the batting average really is pretty minimal.  A casual fan might see the error numbers and think they make a huge difference, and that's why it's good to look at their effect by comparing the errors relative to offensive numbers.

by chrispi on Jun 25, 2007 4:34 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

damn
i sure hope hicks didn't just read this
Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Jun 25, 2007 1:41 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I haven't noticed that much Kinsler bashing
Maybe because I thinks it's stupid and stop reading when I get to it.

by Wes Cox on Jun 25, 2007 2:21 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

its not bashing
its more like:

"if you dont' want to send him down, then you gotta do something.  he's just not getting it done right now and you got to get it through his head that he needs to change."

and the same thing has been said at random points throughout the season for padilla, millwood, tejeda, mccarthy, and cruz.

the problem is that newb baseball fans aren't very patient, which is stupid because its a 162 game season so you have to have patience.  and the bigger problem is that most baseball fans are newb baseball fans and armed with a little knowledge, they offer ridiculous suggestions ("bring up hurley, bring up duran")

Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Jun 25, 2007 2:34 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i for one
recommended sending him down, although i dont think that being a Ranger fan for 25 years makes me a "newbie" baseball fan.

sometimes people have differing opinions.

BTW-rebuilding rarely = winning 3 years later.  It normally just means its time for another rebuild.

Alot of sports is luck.......but it seems that many want to attribute it to doing business a certain way, as though if you follow plan A you will win but with plan B you will fail.  

I think the Rangers could have easily been in contention this year......but due to some bad luck people are looking to strip it down.  I for one think that this team could indeed be competitive next year.

bdavison94 and thedirkatron are my leaders!

by rkh on Jun 25, 2007 5:53 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rangers 08
You can't be competitive, especially in the AL, when you have five #5 starters.

by Randy Richardson on Jun 25, 2007 6:12 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i dont consider
Millwood, Padilla(when healthy), or Mccarthy (after getting this year under his belt) to be # 5 starters.  Lets keep our eyes on Kam Loe as well.

I think we have more like 3 #3 starters, and maybe a couple of #4's

bdavison94 and thedirkatron are my leaders!

by rkh on Jun 25, 2007 6:20 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Funny
In the short time I've read your thoughts, I tend to agree w/ you more often than not. I definitely think you are a worthwhile read.

In the short time I have read rkh, I rarely agree w/ him or her. I'll leave it at that.

That said, I think he's on target here. Five number fives is either disengenuous or a poor assessment, don't you think?

"Why wasn't I moved by Million Dollar Baby? Because I have no soul, that's why." The Dirkatron, movie hater

by Brian Thomas on Jun 25, 2007 7:38 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

starters
even if you temper this seasons disasterous results for our starting 5, where would you plug them in on other teams' staffs? I don't think they're are many AL teams who, if they acquired any one of our starters would slot them above 4 at best. For some teams (Oakland, Detroit, Boston, LAA) none of our guys would even crack they're top 5.

I'm not saying that McCarthy, Tejada, Loe don't have potential to be 2, 3, or 4 guys eventually. I hope they do. I don't think any of us can read Padilla. Millwood has never been able to pitch well at RBiA as a Ranger and I just don't know what to think about him at this point.

by Randy Richardson on Jun 25, 2007 10:05 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ace in the Hole!
I believe in the theory that if you add a #1 to a #3,4, and 5, they will all tend to move up a notch or two simply due to self-respect, emulation, peer-pressure, synergy...whatever you want to call it. Unfortunately, the Rangers never understood that basic concept, and until JD proves me wrong, I don't think he gets it either. He certainly didn't last offseason!

by Everythings Rosey on Jun 25, 2007 10:10 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmmm.
Which ace exactly was he supposed to get?  Zito's 6-8, with an ERA+ of 88.

The only pitching contracts that are halfway paying are Meche and Lilly, and it's not like anyone was thinking of those two as aces last offseason...

by a bebop a rebop on Jun 26, 2007 12:53 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Millwood
You've got a point about the RBiA.  I thought of that recently when we were discussing Cordero.  Millwood is really a #2 at best, but in Arlington he's been pitching like a #5 or worse.

I think it's stretching the point a bit to say they're all #5's.  I think they have 4 #3's (present or future) and a #4 or #5 in Loe if he sticks.  If everyone pitches at their talent level, you can win that way if you have a strong offense and good bullpen (like certain past Ranger teams.  This team obviously lacks that offense.  

Padilla may need surgery so we may not find out about him for a long time.  With Millwood, though, I'm starting to wonder if that option will be picked up.

by t ball on Jun 25, 2007 10:39 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More rambling
Appreciate it, t ball.
To bolster my thoughts, look at the Braves during the Smoltz, Maddox, Avery period. They pushed each other. Separate them, and who knows.
Today's version: The Detroit Tigers. It's only supposition at this point, but put Verlander on one team (mediocre), and Bonderman on another, and I believe neither is as good. Put them on the same staff, and they push each other to excellence, especially sensing that they are part of something special. The Red Sox fit the model also. Millwood needs to NOT be the #1. But he'll be a kick-A #2, if he gets the chance.

by Everythings Rosey on Jun 25, 2007 11:01 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Holy cow
Smoltz, Maddux, Glavine, that's a dream team for sure.  You have to be not only damn good but damn lucky to end up with that many guys being that good. I don't see the Rangers getting a #1 that would push Millwood back this summer, seems like everyone is being smart and protective of their young stud pitchers unfortunately.  And I have my doubts they'd be able to sign one this winter, either, since pickings will be slim to none.

I think they should concentrate on a short term plan of making the outfield much stronger offensively in the corners with defense in the middle.  Then you hope you get a late 90s style thing happening in '08-'09.  Long term you try to develop top of the rotation pitchers either currently in the system or acquired soon, and put them in place as they are ready.  

It could work, but Daniels would have to not only make all the right moves, he'd have to be lucky too.  It doesn't matter how smart he is about looking for the right trades if the other team won't part with the pieces the Rangers need.

by t ball on Jun 25, 2007 11:28 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Synergy
Did you happen to hear Rusty Greer's memory of HIS teams? He especially remembered how the guys would hang out about an hour after each game just to talk about the game and other BS. Think of nearly every championship team, in any sport, and they had that "team-thing", that "hangin' out with the guys thing". It happens with teams, it happens with parts of teams...like pitching staffs! That's what these Rangers don't have...and need to find!
Then WE have fun, too!

by Everythings Rosey on Jun 25, 2007 11:44 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Chemistry
I think is a bit overrated, and is greatly helped by winning.  That said, you can't have a clubhouse full of guys at each other's throats.  I think most teams look at a player's personality when they sign someone, but they're probably just making sure someone is not completely off his rocker.  

by t ball on Jun 26, 2007 10:53 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know if you realize this
but Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz have all been very successful after they were split up, especially considering their advanced age... Avery flamed out while they were all together.

by a bebop a rebop on Jun 26, 2007 12:46 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rebuilding
I think what people tend to overlook when talking "rebuilding" is balance. Rebuilding doesn't mean having a 25 man roster completely made up of guys 22yo - 27yo. There's no reason this team can't rebuild internally and keep veterans at the same time. Younger guys need to play alongside some veterans in order to learn how to prepare for and play the game at the major league level. There's no doubt in my mind that guys like Lofton and Gagne bring more than there numbers to this team. Lofton keeps himself in great physical and mental shape. I hope CJ is watching Gagne like a hawk to learn everything he possibly can.

Someone in an earlier post said Young (at 30) is "on the backside of middle age." I couldn't disagree more. Not just about Young, but just about players in general. Look at the AL batting leaders - they're mostly 30+. Ordonez(33) and Posada(36 in Aug) are having career years.

Rebuilding doesn't mean getting rid of all the veterans. It just means giving more/earlier opportunities for the younger guys.

by Randy Richardson on Jun 25, 2007 3:06 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah, I hope your right
Rebuilding has come to mean what Kansas City and Tampa Bay do every year, get rid of anybody making any money and bringing up new cheap unknown talent.  just a way to keep the payroll low.  Rebuilding means cheap to lots of fans.
"I am in a world of shit" Full Metal Jacket

by SanDiegoKev on Jun 25, 2007 3:14 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

now wait a minute...
Kansas City's never gone through with trading Mike Sweeney!!!
"No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of."

by Walter Sobchak on Jun 25, 2007 3:22 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Basically agree, but different reason
If you look at Detroit and their "rebuilding," they had several vets in Pudge, Magglio, and probably others. Those guys probably brought some veteran leadership, but more importantly, they were good. Detroit took a risk that Magglio would be healthy, but when healthy, he's very good.

Now look at the Rangers FA veteran signings. They all look like bandaids instead of trying to truly improve the team (Sosa, Lofton, Cat, sort of Byrd and Gagne). They were all short contracts, and the Rangers were just trying to tape up some big holes (I'm generalizing, so don't jump all over me). In retrospect, it seems that the Rangers were just trying to fill out the roster.

If the Rangers rebuild and get a good young core, then they can't just pick up FAs to fill out a roster card.  They need to pick up players who improve the team.

Well Mr. Burns had done it. The power plant had won it. With Roger Clemens clucking all the while.

by WyoRanger on Jun 25, 2007 3:39 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kinsler
I'd feel a lot better about him if he'd play another position, LF?, other than 2nd.
One picture is worth 1,000 denials.

by nirvana on Jun 25, 2007 3:11 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wouldn't
If he plays left field, he doesn't have nearly as much value.

A lot of the value he provides is from the fact that he provides offense from a premium defensive position.

by Adam J. Morris on Jun 25, 2007 3:22 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why?
Kinsler has made several UGLY plays at 2b.  But as a 2b, those plays generally amount to 1 base errors.  I think that his errors are mental lapses rather than skill problems and they'll go away as he matures.  He's just a kid, and he should start playing better if you keep sending him out there (he's not Chuck Knoblach). If you move him to left field, you'd now have a weak-armed left fielder who can still make mental lapses which will now cost you many bases.  Talk about screwing him up for good long term.

Also, people always discount outfield defense, and it is actually a very important part of the game.  Particularly in the spacious left field in Arlington.  I'd go so far to say that our outfield defense has been the 2nd weakest part of this team the past decade (after starting pitching..)

by JBImaknee on Jun 25, 2007 3:22 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kinsler's my favorite Ranger
and has been for 2 years now.  The dude's on pace for 94 runs, 28 HR, 70 RBI, 22 Stolen Bases and all of that while slumping majorly for almost 2 full months???  wow, I have no idea how you could expect anything more from a guy, other than defense.

Mike Young's first few years in the majors were .240 average baseball with little to no power, and look how he turned out.  Kinsler's a hard worker and you know our whole team defense sucks, he's just a small part of the problem.  If Washington's great at anything it's supposed to be his penchant for improving players' defense - let's see what happens a full year from now - I think Kinsler's well on his way to All-Stardom

"No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of."

by Walter Sobchak on Jun 25, 2007 3:21 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Kinsler
may be a future star. He's probably my favorite Ranger.

The errors drive me crazy, as well as his inconsistency at the plate.  It looks like many times he just swings too hard.  He's got to learn to go the other way too.

But again,fewer errors and a little more maturity at the plate and he will be a star

by stltxfan on Jun 25, 2007 3:58 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wow
the undervalueing of Defense that i read above has got me thinking we should just bring Botts up and play him at third.
greatest Ranger ever: Fernando Tatis!

by rkh on Jun 25, 2007 7:09 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Soriano
I'd really hate to have his bat in our lineup right now.  For as big of a disciplinarian Buck claimed to be, he never took a stand with Soriano and made him move to the outfield.  Every move since that one has turned out poorly for the Rangers.

But I certainly would never expect Adam to ever say anything about Soriano.  

With all that being said, Kinsler will be fine at 2nd base long term.  He probably will never be a plus defender, but league average is certainly within reach.

And Soriano's range at 2nd was never a real issue.  Sure, he booted way too many balls and had an inordinate amount errors, but his zone rating was never below average.

by jctrampe on Jun 25, 2007 7:23 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ummm...
And Soriano's range at 2nd was never a real issue.  Sure, he booted way too many balls and had an inordinate amount errors, but his zone rating was never below average.

His zone rating was below average every year he played second base.

by Adam J. Morris on Jun 25, 2007 7:34 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think that this is...
a very good, well thought out, post. Kinsler's a kid. I foollowed him thru the minors. He works hard. Was his dad's  a coach (or was he that the prison warden kid).
Give him time.

by dog named blue on Jun 25, 2007 8:15 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's the defense....
And it is because, when you are young and playing little league, you might not have been able to hit at all, because that is actually hard, but boy were you ever the best defender of all time.

Playing defense in people's mind is just like playing catch in one's backyard. It's supposed to be easy.

However, playing defense in the big leagues, you have to be great all the time. You have to get to EVERYTHING.

So, they see Ian out there booting balls and such, they think he is terrible, surely, in fact, they could have made that play. Yes, the guy with the beer gut eating nachos likely thinks he could have gotten to the plays young athletic Ian Kinsler gets to.

It's dumb.

by ghostofErikThompson on Jun 25, 2007 9:16 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The problem with a "rebuilding project"
Is this idea that they actually oneday pay off with results on any kind of a regular basis.

I've never seen any evidence of that in all my years as a sports fan in any sport.

by Sharky on Jun 25, 2007 10:16 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The same people who hated Sori...
are the same people that love IK, and thats what i dont get.  These are the same guys that ran sori out of town b/c he was a defensive liability.  They love IK, and he's just as bad on defense.  IK and MY up the middle is probably one of the worst MIF combos in baseball as far as scooping up hits up the middle.  I can deal with one of them, but 2 of them is terrible.  Neither is willing to full out belly dive for a ball hit up the middle.  You cant have a ground ball heavy pitching staff and MIF with poor range and expect to win anything.  it wont ever work that way.

We can have MY and IK up the middle, but combo that with groundball heavy pitching and its a death sentence.

keep up the Sori hate at 2b and the IK love though, it shows the hypocrisy of rangers nation in full effect.

.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Jun 26, 2007 11:54 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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