Will Carroll with some Laird and Baldelli talk

by Adam J. Morris on Aug 23, 2007 10:44 AM CDT in News Comment 71 comments

Will Carroll had an interesting note in his column yesterday, on a topic we've touched on recently:

The Rays hope to have Rocco Baldelli back on September 1, when rosters expand. The flexibility that expansion allows will give them a chance to play and rest Baldelli in ways that they can't with a 25-man active roster that includes 12 pitchers. Joe Maddon isn't going to lead a change back to the 10-man staff, although that might have to be one of Baldelli's better hopes. His legs might not allow him to ever be a full-time outfielder, meaning he's going to need to find the right situation to ever reach even a portion of his potential. Sometimes things click, as they have for J.D. Drew. I think it will take a trade, perhaps to the Rangers for Max Ramirez and Gerald Laird, to give Baldelli his best chance. For now, he's playing in the minors on rehab, mostly DHing.

Interesting possibility there. I think there is the potential for a Laird/Baldelli deal...it is just a question as to what the other piece the D-Rays would want would be.

If it is Laird and Ramirez for Baldelli, I'd probably do that.

0 recs | Comment 71 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Definitely do that

Get 'em through waivers and get it done now.

Lick by lick, mountains erode

by RangerMoto on Aug 23, 2007 10:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Why on earth would we do that?

If Carroll is right and Baldelli may never again be a full time OF, why trade 2 solid pieces for him? That makes zero sense. The Rangers can't really afford to take those sorts of risks and JD sure as heck can't.

Fire Ron Washington

by pblack on Aug 23, 2007 10:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Because...

...if he can be a full-time outfielder, or close to it (like J.D. Drew), he's a very good player.

Also, why do you think the Rangers can't afford to take those kinds of risks? It seems like, given their situation, they need to take those sorts of risks to try to get someone who can be an elite player.

by Adam J. Morris on Aug 23, 2007 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

even if he's going to

be a full-time OF once again, it's going to be at a corner position. You want another mid 700 OPS corner OF'er?

"Jon Daniels is going to end up being the best thing to ever happen to the Texas Rangers." - me, a long time ago...

by Longhorn on Aug 23, 2007 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Baldelli

Why is he only going to be a corner OF?

by Adam J. Morris on Aug 23, 2007 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Carroll Begins his dscussion with

"His legs might not allow him to ever be a full-time outfielder, meaning he's going to need to find the right situation to ever reach even a portion of his potential. "

Carroll says he's likely not even a corner OFer nevermind only a COFer.

Why would you give up Max for him, all Max has ever done is hit .300 everywhere he's been.

If its Laird for Baldelli fine. You dont give up more than that for a guy Carroll say will never be a full time OFer.

.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Aug 23, 2007 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

Carroll says he's likely not even a corner OFer nevermind only a COFer.

Where does he say that?

by Adam J. Morris on Aug 23, 2007 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This quote

Is sufficient to discourage me. No use at all for outfielders who can't play.

"His legs might not allow him to ever be a full-time outfielder"

Time does funny things. The worst of which is, it keeps moving when you don't.

by Ed Coffin on Aug 23, 2007 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Quote

"His legs might not allow him to ever be a full-time outfielder"
-Will

So your giving up Laird and Max for a part time outfielder?

.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Aug 23, 2007 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Baldelli

is in his mid-20s, and even when he was healthy, he wasn't an elite player. He's a guy whose value was largely dependent on his speed. Take that away (as hamstring injuries often do) and you take away a lot of his value. Pass.

If we want to get someone at their lowest value, we should probably talk to Toronto about Adam Lind. With Rios and Wells and probably Johnson entrenched in the OF, and Travis Snider looming, they really don't have a place for Lind, and they need bullpen and catching help right now.

by FirebatM3 on Aug 23, 2007 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

They can't take risks

b/c their system is full of risks. Outside of MY, and maybe Cat and Kinsler, which positional players can they reasonably count on to perform next year? Botts? Salty? Cruz? Byrd? That is a ton of question marks. Even if you are building to 2009, the Rangers need to start getting some guys that they can count on to perform at a reasonable level and stay on the field. Baldelli is not reliable on either level. Then to trade Laird and Ramirez, two guys who do have some value and could bring back a more reliable player, for a guy who may never be anything, seems like a tremendous risk for a lineup full of question marks.'

At this point I would take a lower ceiling player for greater reliability, who can be counted on to play and perform within reasonable parameters.

I am not saying Baldelli is not worth acquiring, I am saying that at that price I think it makes little sense. Baseball history is full of guys whose bodies failed them and Baldelli is more likely to be one of those guys than JD Drew who, btw, never had the type of injuries Baldelli has.

Fire Ron Washington

by pblack on Aug 23, 2007 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You can find...

...reliable, low-ceiling guys anywhere. You can't find someone who has the potential to be a top-notch CF'er, though, like Baldelli just anywhere.

I'd rather see the Rangers try to find exceptional talents, and then fill in around them with the "reliable" guys, than go out looking for low-ceiling reliable guys.

by Adam J. Morris on Aug 23, 2007 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How can he be a top notch CFer?

I don't see it. He hasn't stayed on the field and when he has been there he hasn't hit all that well. There is no way his defense will be what it was before all the injuries and if he is going to put up a 700 OPS then he is not all that valuable. I agree he can be a top notch CFer, but you have to admit that is extremely unlikely at this point.

To trade Laird and Ramirez for Baldelli is way too risky. I vote no.

Fire Ron Washington

by pblack on Aug 23, 2007 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why do you think...

...he's only good for a 700 OPS?

by Adam J. Morris on Aug 23, 2007 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well

his career OPS is .767, he doesn't walk, in 1,656 ML ABs he has 83 bbs, and his body is not what it once was. Why should I expect anything more than the .767 he now has, which is not exceptional in any way.

Fire Ron Washington

by pblack on Aug 23, 2007 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

because

he's still only 25.

If he could possibly stay healthy, his upside is still considerably better than the .767 he's posted so far.

He's only a little more than a year older than Boggs.

by Brian Hayes on Aug 23, 2007 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ummmm

thats a bunch to give up for a salary dump.

.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Aug 23, 2007 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I dunno

Elite player?

The guy doesn't walk, Adam.

No, I don't mean that literally. Anyway this sort of evaluation from Will Carroll really puts the kibosh on my interest.

His legs might not allow him to ever be a full-time outfielder, meaning he's going to need to find the right situation to ever reach even a portion of his potential.

CF requires an athlete.

We all know Laird is looking bad right now, but I'd still seek a higher return for him. And really, it may be the wrong time to sell on Laird. His value in what's become a veteran career could not be lower than at this very moment...

by hightowersmith on Aug 23, 2007 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

I agree. I don't think you trade Laird right now. Talk about selling low. I'd rather trade Salty, which will bring a much better return, let Laird have next year to see if he can be an average ML catcher, and have Teabaggin, Ramirez, et al. in the wings if he hits again like he did this year.

by BCanfield on Aug 23, 2007 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Laird

his value is low because he's been awful this year.

I haven't seen anything in his play that makes me think that waiting is going to make anything better. Sometimes you trade low because the player is only going lower...

by JBImaknee on Aug 23, 2007 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

amen

laird will probably never be happy here as a backup

but hes been beyond god aweful.

i honsetly think that melhuse or quiroz could do just as good (or bad i guess) as he has...

by knockoutking24 on Aug 23, 2007 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I CAN'T REMEMBER...

...an injury-proned player ever turning out to be an elite player.

Alex Rodriguez?... that's an elite player.

J.D. Drew?... that's a serviceable player.

by oc on Aug 23, 2007 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Umm

Mickey Mantle, Sandy Koufax, and Pedro Martinez all say "Hi."

"Then I met some friends for a beer, went to a BoDeans's concert, and son of a vondruke, if I didn't leave him at the concert hall."

by RCCook on Aug 23, 2007 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

THANKS...

...for that splendid clarification, wiseass...

to reiterate my point... Rocco Baldelli will never be an elite player... a good player?...sure. a great?... not bloody likely.

by oc on Aug 23, 2007 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Baldelli

I don't think he's going to be an elite player either. But you did suggest that it's impossible to be an elite player and injury-prone- it's difficult, but there are times when it's happened.

"Then I met some friends for a beer, went to a BoDeans's concert, and son of a vondruke, if I didn't leave him at the concert hall."

by RCCook on Aug 23, 2007 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Risk?

Trading a catcher who's destined to be a backup here (Laird) and another who is 2+ years away (Ramirez) is a risk? Especially when we have Saltalamacchia and Teagarden ahead of both of them in the long-term depth chart at catcher?

Making that trade is like finding a $5 casino chip on the ground and placing it on Black. Yeah, it is a gamble - but really - is that $5 in your pocket actually going to change your life any?

I'd make that trade in a heartbeat.

by JBImaknee on Aug 23, 2007 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Trading the players is not a risk

Baldelli is a risk. I think the Rangers could get a better player for that package.

Fire Ron Washington

by pblack on Aug 23, 2007 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

Maybe Max Ramirez is a little too valuable - but who are you expecting to be traded our way for that package?

Teams don't trade young ready-to-play outfielders for a couple of catchers. They trade old guys who don't have a future with the team, or young kids who don't have a high ceiling.

Tampa may consider trading Rocco for a different reason - they have too many outfielders, and Rocco is the one who can't stay healthy. I don't think anyone thinks his ceiling is lower. And don't forget that the quality of Tampa's field is so bad that it may well have contributed to his injuries.

Rocco Baldelli is 25 years old. He probably has a higher ceiling than any Ranger outfielder has had since Mateo went down. So yeah, maybe his health makes him a risk. But that risk is lowering his price considerably. All we have to pay for assuming that risk is a failed major league catcher and a guy three years away who is behind two higher rated catchers. I'd make that risk any day.

by JBImaknee on Aug 23, 2007 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"THEY HAVE TOO MANY OUTFIELDERS..."

...ok... well, we have too many catchers...

the trade works one-for-one. not two-for-one.

by oc on Aug 23, 2007 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fine

trade them Max-Ram for Rocco and we can just release Laird this offseason.

by JBImaknee on Aug 23, 2007 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

SO ESSENTIALLY...

...you're trading youth for more spare parts...

...rest my case.

by oc on Aug 23, 2007 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I dont' think

Rocco is a spare part. Not when compared to our current outfield.

But I guess how you fall on that point determines who you'd think would be okay to trade for him.

by JBImaknee on Aug 23, 2007 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ROCCO FOR GERRY...

...is fair enough...

if the argument is that Rocco might be able to fulfill his potential elsewhere... then that same argument should apply to Laird...

basically, you're flipping a quasi-established player for a quasi-established player...

i'm not a big fan of the word "potential"...

you are what you are.

by oc on Aug 23, 2007 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The difference

is that many people would argue that Gerald's potential isn't nearly as high as Baldelli's. With Rocco, injuries have been holding him back - you can't say the same thing for Laird.

If I were the Tampa GM, I wouldn't consider for an instant trading Rocco straight up for Laird.

by JBImaknee on Aug 23, 2007 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Laird

I think he will have great value to an NL team who would probably give us a better player than Baldelli, who when healthy was not all that great.

Fire Ron Washington

by pblack on Aug 23, 2007 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pass

"Jon Daniels is going to end up being the best thing to ever happen to the Texas Rangers." - me, a long time ago...

by Longhorn on Aug 23, 2007 10:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'd do it

I'm not too enthralled with Baldelli, but that's only because of his injury problems. If he ever puts those behind him, he could be a top centerfielder for you for many years to come.
Beside, I'm amazed that Laird still has any sort of value. The man is one of the worst hitters I can remember seeing.

sportsdeals.blogspot.com

by BudLight on Aug 23, 2007 10:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Pass

I love the idea of uncovering value.

I don't like players with extensive medical records. Particularly in CF.

by 3Bagger on Aug 23, 2007 11:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

So- the concept would be

to trade for a lighter hitting, more injury prone, poorer OBP version of Whifferson?

I hate players who can't stay on the field.

and since when have things clicked for JD Drew - he's had a couple decent seasons and some nice stretches, but he's never really been the elite player he was projected to be

by simplesimon on Aug 23, 2007 11:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Sounds like another

Chris Young - Adrián González fiasco waiting to happen, I wouldn't give a bag of beans for Mr. DL Baldelli!

"I am in a world of shit" Full Metal Jacket

by SanDiegoKev on Aug 23, 2007 11:19 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Off the Baldelli deal

but what do you think it would cost for Miguel Cabrera? He expects to be out soon. They need catching. Maybe Salty + ? +?

by meatbonelefty on Aug 23, 2007 11:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Uhh....

Hurley-Salty-Kiker-Main

Would be a good start.

by SaltyGoesYard on Aug 23, 2007 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Think about what we're losing and gaining

Losing: Laird, a catcher who has no value offensivley, and will be an average offensive catcher at his peak
and
Max Ramirez, a 22 year old DH who is doing really good at A+ right now, and could some day potentially be a .280 20-30 HR Dh

And we get Baldelli, who is a almost 26 year old OF, who has the potential to be a .300 25 HR 20SB CF, but next year probably more of a .280 20HR 10-15 SB DH-OF

I like the deal

Hello

by madyp on Aug 23, 2007 11:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

What we're gaining

that is a very optimistic view of the potential return bodering on the unrealistic considering he has never posted those numbers and has had tommy john surgery, a torn ACL and severe hamstring problems over the last couple of seasons.

Fire Ron Washington

by pblack on Aug 23, 2007 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Laird for Baldelli

Is a deal I would do.

But I would be very hesitant to give up anything else of any real value.

by clark on Aug 23, 2007 11:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

why would the D-Rays trade for Laird?

when they already have Navarro - a very similar, but younger, catcher?

by Brian Hayes on Aug 23, 2007 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What is the best time to make a trade

When you can deal from a position of strength, to address a position of weakness.

Trading Laird/MaxRam for Baldelli would be exactly that, and should be done today if it was on the table.

I mean its a no brainer. If Baldelli gets hurt, so what? We did not trade away anything that would set the team back at all.

If he performs to his potential, then we have aquired a player of value for almost nothing.

by SaltyGoesYard on Aug 23, 2007 11:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

will he be

as good as Byrd?

Volquez...it's time, buddy. It's time.

by SteveP on Aug 23, 2007 11:28 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

What about 1B

What would happen if this deal were to happen? First of all, Saltalamacchia would be behind the plate, and that would open a hole at first. Evan Grant seems to think that the Rangers would bring back Wilkerson to man first full-time. I'd rather not see that happen; Wilkerson has not hit for enough power or drawn enough walks to give him another contract. Secondly, Baldelli has played a majority of his games in the minors as a DH. The scounts need to see him in the OF before any serious discussions can begin to take place. It stands to reason that the best solution would be to have some sort of rotation in the OF. I don't know how the players would feel about this, and I don't know how Washington would handle this. Managers like Buck always play the hot bat, even if that means having Catalonotto hitting against lefites (which he historically can't hit). Bottom line, this would be an interesting move for the Rangers, though it would create some problems of it's own.

by Excel Hearts Choi on Aug 23, 2007 11:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Another thing

Our outfield is crowded with not so good players, mostly fourth outfielders. Why add another one. we stockpile fourth outfielders all the time. If we make a trade for an outfielder or sign one, I don't want anybody worse statistically than Cat. I want either a superstar or murphy playing Cf in 08

by meatbonelefty on Aug 23, 2007 11:37 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Because...

...Baldelli isn't a 4th outfielder caliber player.

You'd be bringing him in to be your every day CF.

If he can only play 130 games per year, you let Murphy or Byrd be the CF'er the rest of the time, and you are still in good shape.

by Adam J. Morris on Aug 23, 2007 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If Baldelli is healthy

he's is much better than any Ranger OF.

Signature

by t ball on Aug 23, 2007 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Centerfielder Fairy?

Do you think the Centerfielder Fairy is going to come and say "Oh, the Mets have always wanted Kam Loe, would you take Carlos Beltran?"

What superstar do you think we can get to Texas to play in our outfield next year? Unless you want to break the bank for Andruw Jones and his .734 OPS, I don't think you're going to get it.

Teams get good by making these sorts of moves. There is no one in the Rangers system who has more potential in CF than Rocco Baldelli (except maybe Borbon, who we know nothing about.). The Rangers aren't winning a World Series with David Murphy as their starting CFer. We have to get a GOOD player out there some how, and a guy like Baldelli is MUCH more likely to become that than anyone else who'd come that cheaply.

by JBImaknee on Aug 23, 2007 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lastings Millege

He should be our "white whale."

I will not get my comeuppance!

by Brian Thomas on Aug 23, 2007 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Max and Laird

for Baldelli is not cheap and I'm almost positive the Rangers have zero percent chance at winning the WS with Baldelli too if he's not taking up a roster space on the DL. The next centerfielder we get is just a place holder until we can compete in 2010. why trade a for a guy who has no track record for being good so therefore teams don't get good by making these moves

by meatbonelefty on Aug 23, 2007 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not cheap?

I guess I must seriously be underestimating the trade value of Gerald Laird. Because I see a guy with one of the worst OPS's in baseball, who doesn't really have a job here next year, and who has had trouble getting along with two managers. Best case scenario is that he works out a Brad Ausmus-like career, but I'm not convinced he's that exceptional behind the plate.

Max Ram is a good, but not great, prospect in High-A Ball. We got him straight up for 2 months of Kenny Lofton. He has a great bat for a catcher, but there are serious questions on whether he can stay behind the plate. His value is probably considerably lower if he can't stay behind the plate.

Put another way - if two months ago Tampa offered Rocco for Laird and Lofton - would you have done it? I probably would have.

But really, if the evidence is strong that Rocco isn't healthy, then of course you don't make the trade. But he may be healthy, in which case you are buying low on one of the better young CFers in the game.

by JBImaknee on Aug 23, 2007 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not Cheap...

as in he costs a lot and is mainly being shopped b/c he is signed long term to a bloated contract and is hurt all the time.

not in a trade value cheap kinda way, but in a ill give u 2 buckets of cold chicken for abreu b/c i cant afford him, cheap

.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Aug 23, 2007 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Max and Laird

for a busted up outfielder is idiocy. Two healthy catchers should be worth more than that.

by Jea103 on Aug 23, 2007 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Baldelli

Laird is older and no better than the disappointing guy they already have at catcher.

Ramirez is in A-Ball.

Baldelli is still only 25 and has a track record of good performance for a player his age when he's been healthy enough to play.

by Brian Hayes on Aug 23, 2007 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Potential

Beltre just might have that much potential, though it's too early to tell and he won't be in the big leagues for several years. I agree with the rest of your post, though. Baldelli is heads and shoulders above any outfielder on the Ranger horizon if he's healthy.

Signature

by t ball on Aug 23, 2007 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd try to hold onto Ramirez

just because the system is so bereft of top hitting prospects. I don't know who else they'd be interested in.

Signature

by t ball on Aug 23, 2007 11:38 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'd rather do it for DeJesus.

People rarely live up to their baby pictures.

by rooster on Aug 23, 2007 11:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Well, sure

But the Royals aren't going to trade DeJesus for Laird and Ramirez.

by Adam J. Morris on Aug 23, 2007 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Jesus

He's 2 years older than Rocco and has practically the same major league OPS that Baldelli has.

The Jesus has amassed a total of 6 homers in this, his age 27 season. I've always been a fan of his, but I'm pretty much doubting at this point that he's ever going to develop power.

by Brian Hayes on Aug 23, 2007 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

id do

laird, bullpen arm for baldelli - but i doubt that gets it done

laird, feldman, + for baldelli?

laird, littleon, + for baldelli (but id hate to lose littleton...)

as adam said in a diff thread - a few yrs ago ppl were talking about this guy like he was going to be grady sizemore...

by knockoutking24 on Aug 23, 2007 11:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure I want to give up

2 catching pieces for an outfielder who can't stay healthy for the life of him. We've seen what catchers can get back in return in the past (Piezynski sp?, Diaz twice) so I'd probably see what else we could get if it costs us 2 quality catchers for Baldelli.

by slimshadty12 on Aug 23, 2007 11:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

One quality catcher.

I have trouble attaching quality to Gerald Laird right now...

Alex Rodriguez is slugging higher than Laird's OPS right now...

by JBImaknee on Aug 23, 2007 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Quality...

Relative term but I'd say Laird is a quality catcher in that he's a nice defensive catcher and has shown to hit much better in the majors then what he's currently sporting. Ramirez would be a quality catching prospect purely because of his bat. I think both could have significant value to a trade.

by slimshadty12 on Aug 26, 2007 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ramirez

is a little too much even if he is only just a DH, the guy can hit.

"Most sports fans don't give a shit about baseball but they watch it because of the steroid controversy" ~booker

by shallrelicme on Aug 23, 2007 1:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Baldelli...errr...

I am on and off about Baldelli.

The numbers guy side of me says that you don't give up a reasonable asset for a guy who is long on potential but also long on injuries.

The medhead side of me says that while Baldelli's got a regular butcher's block list of major injuries on his record, there's nothing repetitive in his injury history except his hamstrings. As we've seen with the Mets All-Star SS Jose Reyes, hammy problems are something that you can remedy. My big question with his medical history is this: Can TJed elbow hold up?

The beer belly fan side of me says I'd love to see if Baldelli can do it, especially if we can do it without giving up too much in return.

by patrickindenton on Aug 23, 2007 2:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Baldelli trade

Presuming he plays some in the outfield in September and looks healthy, this deal seems doable. It's a win-win kind of scenario. The deal would carry less risk than signing Hunter to 5yrs/90+ million.

by Randy Richardson on Aug 23, 2007 3:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs