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McGwire has gotten exactly 128 votes (23 percent) each of the last two years in hall of fame voting. It should never get any higher and any intelligent baseball fan can see it with his or her own two eyes.

"Big Mac" had 583 home runs, but those are the most worthless 583 home runs in Major League Baseball history. In fact, no one who has hit more than 500 home runs is as worthless as McGwire.

Again, forget for a minute that McGwire's are likely steroid-induced dingers.

His 583 towering shots were almost 36 percent of his career hits total of 1,626.

That's right, he had only 1,626 hits. You tell me a Hall of Famer who had that only many hits. It's also easily the highest percentage of any player with more than 500 career home runs.

Bringing up a name from Chicago's baseball past, it's Dave Kingman-like. In fact, it's much worse than "King Kong," who was known as a homer-or-nothing hitter.

Kingman had 442 career home runs and 1,575 hits, which is 28 percent. The lowest number of hits for a 500-home run guy is 1,925 by Jim Thome of the White Sox, but he's still playing. So he can improve that number a little.

I consider Thome in the same category as McGwire -- not a Hall of Famer. He was a better overall player than McGwire, but in this day and age of inflated numbers, Thome isn't good enough yet.

A better comparison to McGwire would be Fred McGriff, who will be eligible in 2009. The "Crime Dog" had 493 home runs, 2,490 hits and never hit below .269 in a full season. He hit .300 or more four times.

McGwire hit more than .300 only twice and actually had a full season in 1991 (he played 154 games) in which he hit .201.

That's truly pathetic.

No player in the hall of fame for performance has EVER hit that low in a full season in the prime of his career.

That 1991 season was only four years removed from his rookie-of-the-year campaign. And he followed it up with two years (1993 and 1994) in which he had 18 home runs in 74 games combined because of injuries (due to steroids?).

Never mind his famous "I plead the fifth amendment" moment in front of Congress. Never mind that only a blind man could have the opinion big No. 25 wasn't on steroids.

McGwire isn't a Hall of Famer based on pure numbers.

On the other hand, his counterpart in that magically fake cheater-filled 1998 season does deserve Hall of Fame status, if 'roids are removed from the equation.

Sammy "They were just Flintstones Vitamins" Sosa has 609 home runs, 2,408 hits and 234 stolen bases. He had two 30-30 campaigns (1993 and 1995) and may have put together the most dominant five-year stretch in Major League history.

From 1998 to 2002 Sosa averaged 58 home runs, 141 runs batted in with a .306 composite batting average.

Again, forgetting about Flintstones Vitamins or steroids, the number say Sosa is a lock for the hall.

McGriff has an above-average shot and McGwire is a fraud.

This may be the dumbest thing I've ever read.

It is so dumb, I don't even know what the dumbest part of it is...the use of the ratio of homers to hits as a way of evaluating McGwire, or the fact that it ignores the 50+ point difference in OBP between McGwire and Sosa.  

(And this reminds me, I need to do another post about why Sosa is not a HOF-caliber player).

McGwire is 12th all-time in career OPS+.  Here are the guys ahead of him:

Babe Ruth
Ted Williams
Barry Bonds
Lou Gehrig
Rogers Hornsby
Mickey Mantle
Dan Brouthers
Joe Jackson
Ty Cobb
Albert Pujols
Jimmie Foxx

You want to compare McGwire to people, compare him to Pujols, or Foxx, or Hank Greenberg or Johnny Mize.

Not Dave Kingman.

This is freaking clownshoes.

0 recs  |  Comment 36 comments

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huh?...
...your arguing that since McGwire has the 12th highest OPS+ in baseball history, he belongs in the Hall?

Pete Rose has the most hits in baseball... he's not in.  

Care to comment on that?

by oc on Jan 13, 2008 4:38 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Sigh, Part II
huh?...

...your arguing that since McGwire has the 12th highest OPS+ in baseball history, he belongs in the Hall?

Pete Rose has the most hits in baseball... he's not in.  

Care to comment on that?

The point that the author is making is not that McGwire doesn't belong in the Hall because of steroids.

It is that he doesn't belong in the Hall regardless, because he wasn't a good enough player, even with the steroids.

Which is stupid.

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 13, 2008 4:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ok...
...you need to clarify that in your original statement...

...typical Adam Morris number-crunching bullshit.

by oc on Jan 13, 2008 5:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought it was obvious...
...from the context of the article that I linked and quoted...

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 13, 2008 5:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

AJM
Your point was obvious. Any videos of you trying to ski on youtube?  :-)
The Texas Rangers rounded the bases at a dizzying pace

by fsujon on Jan 13, 2008 6:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i didn't get that, sir...
...i just got a bunch of HR-hit comparisons and OPS+ rankings...

by oc on Jan 13, 2008 6:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

How could you not get that?
Wow.
"God plays by his own rules, folks. And HGH is f***ing legal as hell up in heaven." -Andy Pettitte

by thedirkatron on Jan 13, 2008 7:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm wid O to the C
Less number crunching!

More bowl-smoking, sandwich eatin', and shit takin'!

Juevos Daniels: biggest stones in the business.

by tricer on Jan 13, 2008 5:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Taking a shit
may be a pain in the ass, but it's not pointless.
hurlerhurley has to drink a 6 pack just to have one for each of his usernames.

by t ball on Jan 13, 2008 10:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Rose not in
Rose actually broke rules that were in place during the time he was in the game.  McGwire didn't.  Even if McGwire had run around the bases with a syringe full of steroids in his ass his entire career it doesn't matter since they were not against the rules of MLB at the time.
Oh Man!!!!

by SwiperNoSwiping on Jan 13, 2008 4:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

both have tarnished their careers...
...just because McGwire got away with it doesn't justify him getting in.

by oc on Jan 13, 2008 5:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Got away with what?
Following the rules?
Oh Man!!!!

by SwiperNoSwiping on Jan 13, 2008 5:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Mac
supposedly only usd substances that were LEGAL at the time. So he actually should not have a tarnished career.
The Texas Rangers rounded the bases at a dizzying pace

by fsujon on Jan 13, 2008 6:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's a common misconception
steroids were very much against the rules at the time (at least as far as I've heard). They just had no system of testing to enforce the ban, and seemed happy to pretend it wasn't happening.

Though I 100% agree that what Rose did was much, much worse than PED's.

"God plays by his own rules, folks. And HGH is f***ing legal as hell up in heaven." -Andy Pettitte

by thedirkatron on Jan 13, 2008 7:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

McGwire and Rose...
should both be in the Hall imo. There are many in th HOF that did not always "play by the rules". What those two meant to the game in their era is indisputable.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Jan 13, 2008 8:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Question:
Do you believe Rose bet AGAINST his own team?

To the best of my knowledge he's admitted betting on his team, but still denies betting against them.

I have very little doubt in my mind that he's still lying and did indeed bet against his own team, which is absolutely unforgivable, imo.

My question is, do you believe he bet against his own team and still want him in the hall?

Or do you believe he never bet against his own team?

"God plays by his own rules, folks. And HGH is f***ing legal as hell up in heaven." -Andy Pettitte

by thedirkatron on Jan 13, 2008 11:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No, sadly...
I do believe he did bet against his own team as well.

Yes I still believe he belongs in the HOF. The guy has more hits than any other player to play the game and that alone gets him in imo.

I don't endorse the guy on a personal level, but he is one of he best players to play the game. For better or worse, he is a huge part of baseball history.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Jan 13, 2008 11:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

even if he didn't
ever bet against his own team who says he bet for them every day.  Basically he could very well have bet some days and not other days.  I would imagine that would change the way he ran his team.

by JKolar on Jan 14, 2008 5:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I have no idea
how folks draw a comparison about two guys who "broke the rules", when one rule was written on every clubhouse wall, with a very clear penalty, and one rule didn't exist in written form at all.
"We should have bombed it (Auschwitz)"-President Bush

by DJCahill on Jan 14, 2008 5:28 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

huh?
Isn't time for you to smoke a bowl, make a sandwich, and hit the crapper?
"We should have bombed it (Auschwitz)"-President Bush

by DJCahill on Jan 14, 2008 5:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

dave kingman?
the only way the compare is hits, home runs and strikeouts.

mcgwire destroys kingman lol

send me nominations for the Hall of the Very Good
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER

by gossamer on Jan 13, 2008 4:39 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

lol
the whole comparison between kingman is silly.

both played 16 seasons.  

kong played 70 more games.
kong had 500 more AB's.

big mac had over 200 more runs scored.
big mac had 200 more rbi.
big mac had more than double the walks.
big mac had 300 fewer strikeouts.
big mac has a world series ring.
big mac had 140 more home runs.
big macs avg was .027 higher (that's a lot)
big macs obp was .092 higher.

i know the argument wasn't for kingman being in the hall.  but it's a lot of comparison's between kingman and big mac.  and arbitrarily % of hits being home run was an issue.  i would think for a power hitter, the higher the % the better.

being #9 in career slugging% is pretty good.
who is he behind?   babe ruth, teddy ballgame, the iron horse, pujols, foxx, bonds, greenberg and manny.

ahead of joe dimaggio, arod and rogers hornseby and stan musial.

#11 in OPS. behind ruth,teddy ballgame, the iron horse, bonds, pujols, foxx, greenberg, todd helton, rogers hornseby and manny.  

and what adam said about OPS+.

but yeah, he used something (allegedly) that was not against the rules of baseball.

send me nominations for the Hall of the Very Good
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER

by gossamer on Jan 13, 2008 5:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

AJM
you should take this article apart FJM style. This guy deserves it.
Juevos Daniels: biggest stones in the business.

by tricer on Jan 13, 2008 5:08 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

as far as "worthless home runs"
i'm sure he's had a couple game winning or game tieing home runs.
send me nominations for the Hall of the Very Good
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER

by gossamer on Jan 13, 2008 5:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

here
this guy discussing the great points of the article:

http://vegaswatch.net/2008/01/new-statistic.html

send me nominations for the Hall of the Very Good
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER

by gossamer on Jan 13, 2008 5:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sosa is a HOF
Big Mac is not a HOF.  End of story.  Good article.
Red Sux Nation is an evil organization.

by BillyBobisdrunk on Jan 13, 2008 5:29 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Harmon Killebrew...
...has the highest ratio of homers to hits of anyone in the Hall:  27%.  But did you know he's only 99th in hits?  And he only stole 19 bases in his career?

What a candy-ass.  Doesn't belong in the Hall.

Your not acting like a child but because i'm not using proper english so what. Its the 2000's. Does any body use proper grammar? -- NYTXFAN

by Lucas on Jan 13, 2008 5:32 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

and Ralph Kiner and Hack WIlson
both had fewer hits too
send me nominations for the Hall of the Very Good
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER

by gossamer on Jan 13, 2008 5:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well
LSB is full of people who know nothing about stats, so I imagine this column is full of lies.

Jason Botts is probably a hall of famer in AJM's book..

"The Democrats want change, they want the change in your pockets"-Rudy Giuliani on "change".

by Sharky on Jan 13, 2008 7:45 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Sharky
Are you always this much of an idiot, or only on Sundays?

Adam quoted two stats in his comments, which took me an entire two minutes on Baseball Reference to verify as correct.

If you're referring to the column Adam posted as being full of lies, well, Adam's point is that the column is a bunch of crap.

Seriously, dude, if you're going to troll, at least make a point which doesn't make you look like a total and complete dumb-ass.

"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky

by RCCook on Jan 13, 2008 8:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I just made a little wager...
with him in the most recent politics thread. Think he would take it?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Jan 13, 2008 8:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

OPS+
doesn't mean squat in relation to the Hall of Fame.  Never has as far as I know.
"We should have bombed it (Auschwitz)"-President Bush

by DJCahill on Jan 14, 2008 6:53 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

If Sammy Sosa
isn't a HoFer, they might as well shut down the HoF for new position players.  Anyone who will argue that Tim Raines is a HoFer, and Sammy Sosa isn't, probably needs to step away from the Crack Pipe.
"We should have bombed it (Auschwitz)"-President Bush

by DJCahill on Jan 15, 2008 6:47 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

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